Hi,
Let's say that Marneus Calgar and a more powerful version of Ghazghkull Thraka fought and Thraka won by killing Calgar. We won't worry about how Thraka got more powerful.
Normally, if there was enough of him left, I'd say they would put him in a Venerable Dreadnaught. But let's say there wasn't enough of him left for a dreadnaught.
Setting all that aside, what do you think would happen if he died?
Here is what I think will happen:

Time of death: Thraka's power klaw overloads Calgar's armour power source.
5 seconds after death: Thraka gives the order to take as many remaining marines prisoner.
5 hours after death: Everyone but some honour guard, Captain Sicarus, Varro Tigurius and Chaplain Cassius have been taken prisoner.
10 hours after death: Thraka's forces leave the battlefield with what remains of Calgar (probably his armour)
24 hours after death: Tigurius announces to the rest of the Ultramarines that he is now chapter master, and he will teach another librarian to be a master psyker.
Beyond 24 hours: Calgar's death is mourned for the next 100 years or so.

What about you?

Thraka kills Calgar.

If possible, intern in a Dreadnought. if not, bury him when fighting's done. Thraka does the orky thing "Smash the blueboys!"

If the Ultramarines survive, Captain Agemman becomes Chapter Master. If he is dead, Sicarius becomes Chapter Master. Calgar is given the standard honouring plus a bit extra because he's the best Ultramarine ever and all that jazz. Then move on. Done.

-Ultramarines would not be taken prisoner, they would either win or they would die.
-Highly unlikely that a Librarian would be Chapter Master of a chapter like the Ultramarines. You also can't just name yourself as Chapter Master.
-Calgar would be revered for as long as the Ultramarines themselves exist, but the chapter would move on.

I'm sure Tigurius has been advisor to previous Chapter Masters, so I assume he would continue to do so. I imagine Cassius and him would make the decision as to whether Sicarius or Agemman would succeed Calgar, or at the very least convene the chapter council to debate the topic. Unless Calgar explicitly states his successor.
Calgar himself would likely be honoured and the Chapter mourn him forever more, maybe rename a building after him.

Hmm, I'm not sure the Ultramarines would move on that quickly. They'd move on really quickly in the sense that they'd pick a new chapter master straight away but space marines tend to be pretty vengeful and care a lot about stains to their honour. A proud founding chapter like the Ultramarines would likely try to hunt Ghazghkull down and ramp up their involvement in zones where Ghazghkull is active. Depending on their success, this could drag on for centuries. Of course they'd still put Ultramar first.


Also, I just read Macragge's Honour yesterday and in it
So yea, they are almost every bit as stubborn and vengeful as say the Dark Angels and wouldn't move on that quickly.

I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He would rip up his armor and make his mek create a kustom armor that fits him with those pieces. The corpse of calgar he would mount on his battlewagon for display.

Well Ghaz would slaughter the rest of the ultramarines... Why would he stop?

Also how would Ghaz get to the ultramarines? I think nids would kill the ultramarines or Honsou would come and kill them off not Ghaz.

Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

KaptinBadrukk wrote:Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

Grey Templar wrote:The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

The best Ultramarine you’ve never heard of /hipster

When Calgar dies, which will happen eventually, even if the timeline never advances to that point, he’s the next in line. Of course, rumors persist that Sicarius is in position to jump ahead, and when things go down, might end up in charge. I’m not sure exactly how internal politics work in the Ultras, but hubris and pride are our flaws. The ugly rumors of chapter infighting might be just that, or a prelude to a civil war within the chapter.

Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

 Nevelon wrote:

KaptinBadrukk wrote:Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

Grey Templar wrote:The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

The best Ultramarine you’ve never heard of /hipster

When Calgar dies, which will happen eventually, even if the timeline never advances to that point, he’s the next in line. Of course, rumors persist that Sicarius is in position to jump ahead, and when things go down, might end up in charge. I’m not sure exactly how internal politics work in the Ultras, but hubris and pride are our flaws. The ugly rumors of chapter infighting might be just that, or a prelude to a civil war within the chapter.

I would say sicarius would be the best canidate to replace him. He is the captain of the first company - doesn't that make him next in line?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

While I’m sure it happens in some chapters, I think librarian CMs are going to be rare. The traditional leadership path is the line officers, aka captains. With them generally working their way up to the lower numbered companies, so the captain of the 1st is generally second in command of the chapter, etc. While the head librarian, chaplain, apothecary are important to the leadership and direction of the chapter, they are support personal, not command.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

Generally speaking the space marines look upon psykers from the distance almost as pariahs. They are truly fearful of their powers and sense a tainting within them. This really hurts their chances at leading a chapter. Unless you are a Greyknight - where everyone is a psyker.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I would say sicarius would be the best canidate to replace him. He is the captain of the first company - doesn't that make him next in line?

Sicarius is captain of the 2nd company. He replaced Agemman in that position after the battle of Macragge, when Agemman replaced Invictus as the captain of the 1st. Who as we know where killed to a man defending the polar fortress. Sicarius was perviously captain of the 5th.

Tigurius would not be Chapter Master as he is Chief Librarian, the two roles are entirely separate in a codex chapter, he will always be an advisor to the Chapter Master, as will the Master of Sanctity, the Chief Apothecary, Master of the Forge.
Agemman is Captain of the 1st company, he was promoted after the Battle of Macragge, after Saul Invictus, the previous 1st Captain died with the rest of the 1st company. Agemman was Captain of the 2nd company previously, and was succeeded by Sicarius, who is Calgar's protégé, but Agemman is the rightful heir to the throne of Ultramar.
Agemman holds a lot of sway with Cassius, whilst Sicarius has close ties to Tigurius, but there is no definitive answer to who will succeed Calgar.
Also, remember who was pegged as the next Blood Angels Chapter Master? Yeah Tycho didn't last long, but Karlaen is still being alive and awesome.

Edit: ninja'd by Nev.

Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

if Calgar was killed, the Ultramarines would rally and make every effort to recover the body, and extract revenge if they couldn't. if the fight was truely lost they'd retreat.

Once the fighting was done they'd mourn, and they'd also choose their new chapter master. for the duration the leader of the 1st company would likely be acting chapter master, and the Ultramarines would then choose their new master. here's where it gets tricky.. we don't actually KNOW how one is chosen. However given the fluff for Sacirus it's clearly not a clear line of "1st company leader becomes chapter master" I would guess some sort of conclave where the chapter master is chosen. I'd GUESS each company commander, as well as the cheif librarian, Master of Sancity, Cheif apocathy and anyone else the Chapter Master has given special honors too (possiably sergent Chronos for example) has a vote.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He wouldn't fit in it. Ghazzy's almost the size of a dreadnought.

Anywayz, i think that nothing special would have happened if Calgar Got killed. He's not that special (don't tell Matt). Besides, one of the two - Sicarus or Agem...Agam...Termie guy will become a new CM. The way it's gona be choosen doesn't matter much. Than the chapter will have another major bugurt announced: hunt down Ghazzy. And many unnecessery grimdark stuff will be done to achieve it.

thing is, ultimatly I'm sure somewhere in the last ten thousand years a Ultramarines chaptermaster HAS been killed by orks chapter masters die.they're no exception to the rule that no space marine has yet died of old age. even if we ASSUME Dante's lifespan is normal for a chaptermaster, even if we ASSUME he'd been chaptermaster for that entire 1000 years of his life...and that 1000 year reigns are the NORM for a SM chapter master, then every first founding chapter will have had at LEAST 10 chapter masters. the Ultramarines, like every other chapter, has lost chapter masters before, and will lose their current ones eventually. losing a chapter master doesn't break a Chapter.

There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He wouldn't fit in it. Ghazzy's almost the size of a dreadnought.

Anywayz, i think that nothing special would have happened if Calgar Got killed. He's not that special (don't tell Matt). Besides, one of the two - Sicarus or Agem...Agam...Termie guy will become a new CM. The way it's gona be choosen doesn't matter much. Than the chapter will have another major bugurt announced: hunt down Ghazzy. And many unnecessery grimdark stuff will be done to achieve it.

Don't orks love to steal and modifiy the gear of their slain enemies? Wasn't suggesting he wear the arm - just break off the power fists and modify them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't orks love to steal and modifiy the gear of their slain enemies? Wasn't suggesting he wear the arm - just break off the power fists and modify them.

I'm pretty sure something like this would happen. Orks often collect shiny trophies from worthy opponents. And space marine chapter master is definitely a worthy one. And has enough shiny stuff to choose from! The only problem is an ork got to win in the first place.

I will throw the major curveball at this topic. If Calgar were to die I do not think either Agemman or Sicarus become chapter master. The legion is too divided on who they would support. Therefore, both stay in command of their companies and one, Uriel Ventris captain of the 4th, becomes chapter master of the Ultramarines with the backing of potential power players like Tigurius and Cassius.

If any other Captain were to take command, it would be Fabian, he's a hero of the chapter. Ventris is barely out of the 10th company, he is the least competent, most unorthodox, least decorated, youngest, captain in the chapter

Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

 Generalstoner wrote:
I will throw the major curveball at this topic. If Calgar were to die I do not think either Agemman or Sicarus become chapter master. The legion is too divided on who they would support. Therefore, both stay in command of their companies and one, Uriel Ventris captain of the 4th, becomes chapter master of the Ultramarines with the backing of potential power players like Tigurius and Cassius.

I'm sorry, but the Ultramarines are dogmatic to the Codex and too hy the book to start a war over this. Sicarius is ambitious but not vain enough to claim any sort of legitimate claim to Chapter Master, nor would others support him. Agemman is next Chapter Master, unless he dies too. Tiguirius and Cassius are wise enough to give him the postion. He is also first captain. That means he is the best among all the Ultramarine Captains. If Sicarius was worthy of the postion he would have leapfrogged Agemman then, not once Calgar is dead. Unless Calgar explicitly announces to the Chapter "Sicarius is my successor", Agemman is in.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

And next in line...look here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632582.page

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

And next in line...look here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632582.page

Why not? It seems like that right now. And honestly I wouldn't fell a frakking tear.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
If any other Captain were to take command, it would be Fabian, he's a hero of the chapter. Ventris is barely out of the 10th company, he is the least competent, most unorthodox, least decorated, youngest, captain in the chapter

Captain Fabian is a very good shout, Captain of the 3rd, has the first recorded kill of a Hive Tyrant in close combat(held jointly with 3rd Company dreadnought Severus IIRC). I also think Captains Galenus of the 5th, Epathus of the 6th and Ixion of the 7th would also be considered in the circumstances. Maybe Galenus slightly more than the other 2 as he is a Battle Company Captain and the other two are Captains of reserve companies. That being said all 3 of them were serving Captains before Fabian got his promotion and succeeded Ardias so maybe they might be considered before Fabian due to their longer service records.

 Adamski Alders wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
If any other Captain were to take command, it would be Fabian, he's a hero of the chapter. Ventris is barely out of the 10th company, he is the least competent, most unorthodox, least decorated, youngest, captain in the chapter

Captain Fabian is a very good shout, Captain of the 3rd, has the first recorded kill of a Hive Tyrant in close combat(held jointly with 3rd Company dreadnought Severus IIRC). I also think Captains Galenus of the 5th, Epathus of the 6th and Ixion of the 7th would also be considered in the circumstances. Maybe Galenus slightly more than the other 2 as he is a Battle Company Captain and the other two are Captains of reserve companies. That being said all 3 of them were serving Captains before Fabian got his promotion and succeeded Ardias so maybe they might be considered before Fabian due to their longer service records.

Good point, Fabian did lead the 3rd and 7th at Macragge though, so he's probably got a lead there. Also, I'm sure I read that he was a 1st company sergeant until Ardias died, meaning he would have served under Invictus at least once.

I did not know that he was a 1st company sergeant until Ardias died, I haven't read that bit before. I just assumed he was part of the 3rd company under Ardias, maybe a sgt or even part of the company command squad during their run in with the Tau during the Damocles Gulf campaign/fighting Chaos in the Fire Warrior game. I do like the fact that Fabian is getting more of a mention in the official canon and books. I do agree that Fabian's heroics during the fights at Macragge probably gives him a slight edge over the 3 captains I mentioned.

That's some serious Ultrasmurf hate going on. Not sure why so many hate the Ultras.

Ultramarines are GW's poster children for Space Marines, but other than that everything I've read suggests they're more genetically pure, less conflicted, less grimdark and less nasty than most Chapters. Ultramarine rule over Ultramar seems more enlightened, fair and effective and less corrupt than most Imperial leadership. Ultramar is certainly one of the more prosperous domains, and voluntarily exceeds it's tithes in some areas.

There are chapters that beat the Ultras in any one of these areas, but the Ultras seem to have it all. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe people resent having any Chapter (that's not their personal favorite) presented as some kind of exemplar.

Or maybe it's that their name is a horrid pun? Ultramarine is a particular blue color, but it also implies that they're more 'Marine' than any other. Yeah, I could see that being irritating.

Could it be that they go in for classical Roman-style names and imagery?

Maybe people hate Guillman because he missed out on the Siege of Terra? Or because he penned the Codex Astartes?

I dunno, if I was a Marine player I'd think they have a lot to be proud of.

Maybe it's because a lot of inexperienced, unskilled players play Ultras because they're the first-among-equals chapter young players encounter in the rulebooks. If so, we should a) give the noobs a chance to grow, and b) don't blame it on the Ultras. Whatever Chapter is featured in the rulebooks is going to attract a lot of new players.

Anyway, I can't figure it out. 'Sides, I play Orks. Don't much care what color armor dey wearz (though Mork, dem wolf pelts look gud!). Whoever fights best is goin' right on top uv me pointy stikk. Dat's an honor, dat iz!

the hate for the Ultramarines stems from the fact that they are the exemplars, they wrote the book on being Marines. and pop culture does not VALUE those types of people. it typically values the edgy rule breaking people! who look at the rules and are like "feth that I know more then the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years of these people!"

BrianDavion wrote:
the hate for the Ultramarines stems from the fact that they are the exemplars, they wrote the book on being Marines. and pop culture does not VALUE those types of people. it typically values the edgy rule breaking people! who look at the rules and are like "feth that I know more then the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years of these people!"

Nah they have always been too good for this universe asking me,and remember the Nids just visited Macragge which render your everything is great there-argument pretty much moot. Plus I'm a fanboi of the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves so don't expect me to cut any slack.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the hate for the Ultramarines stems from the fact that they are the exemplars, they wrote the book on being Marines. and pop culture does not VALUE those types of people. it typically values the edgy rule breaking people! who look at the rules and are like "feth that I know more then the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years of these people!"

Nah they have always been too good for this universe asking me,and remember the Nids just visited Macragge which render your everything is great there-argument pretty much moot. Plus I'm a fanboi of the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves so don't expect me to cut any slack.

who argued everything was great on Macragge? certinly not me. you're proably right that they're still contending with the after effects of the Tyranids invasion. and hoenstly, I suspect, Space Wovles tend to attract the very type of people who hate ultramarines the most.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the hate for the Ultramarines stems from the fact that they are the exemplars, they wrote the book on being Marines. and pop culture does not VALUE those types of people. it typically values the edgy rule breaking people! who look at the rules and are like "feth that I know more then the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years of these people!"

Nah they have always been too good for this universe asking me,and remember the Nids just visited Macragge which render your everything is great there-argument pretty much moot. Plus I'm a fanboi of the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves so don't expect me to cut any slack.

who argued everything was great on Macragge? certinly not me. you're proably right that they're still contending with the after effects of the Tyranids invasion.

Finally an Ultramarina-fanboi with some common sense. Sorry I just resent how they tend to outshine certain chapters, but I'm no hater.

Personally I think Macragge would need to be wiped clean because of the Nids.

He would be honoured, monuments built and his relics placed in a place of honour among the others.

A new chapter master would be named after a period and chosen by concil and the grimdark carries on.
Maybe get a battlebarge named after him.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the hate for the Ultramarines stems from the fact that they are the exemplars, they wrote the book on being Marines. and pop culture does not VALUE those types of people. it typically values the edgy rule breaking people! who look at the rules and are like "feth that I know more then the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years of these people!"

Nah they have always been too good for this universe asking me,and remember the Nids just visited Macragge which render your everything is great there-argument pretty much moot. Plus I'm a fanboi of the Imperial Fists and Space Wolves so don't expect me to cut any slack.

who argued everything was great on Macragge? certinly not me. you're proably right that they're still contending with the after effects of the Tyranids invasion.

Finally an Ultramarina-fanboi with some common sense. Sorry I just resent how they tend to outshine certain chapters, but I'm no hater.

Personally I think Macragge would need to be wiped clean because of the Nids.

it depends how far along the invasion was. but yeah there's a certin disconnect between it and how GW has depicted 'nid invasions elsewhere where it's all like "EVEN IF THE NIDS ARE DEFEATED THE WORLD IS NEVER THE SAME AHHH!" I suppose it's possiable the 'nids just didn't really get dug in eneugh to truely begin "nid forming" the world

I think Sicarius would be made Chapter master and Agemman will succumb to warp corruption. Or maybe once he becomes chapter master, Sicarius would be the one revealed to have already been under the influence of chaos.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I think Sicarius would be made Chapter master and Agemman will succumb to warp corruption. Or maybe once he becomes chapter master, Sicarius would be the one revealed to have already been under the influence of chaos.

your reasoning for this is?

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
That's some serious Ultrasmurf hate going on. Not sure why so many hate the Ultras.

Ultramarines are GW's poster children for Space Marines, but other than that everything I've read suggests they're more genetically pure, less conflicted, less grimdark and less nasty than most Chapters. Ultramarine rule over Ultramar seems more enlightened, fair and effective and less corrupt than most Imperial leadership. Ultramar is certainly one of the more prosperous domains, and voluntarily exceeds it's tithes in some areas.

There are chapters that beat the Ultras in any one of these areas, but the Ultras seem to have it all. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe people resent having any Chapter (that's not their personal favorite) presented as some kind of exemplar.

Or maybe it's that their name is a horrid pun? Ultramarine is a particular blue color, but it also implies that they're more 'Marine' than any other. Yeah, I could see that being irritating.

Could it be that they go in for classical Roman-style names and imagery?

Maybe people hate Guillman because he missed out on the Siege of Terra? Or because he penned the Codex Astartes?

I dunno, if I was a Marine player I'd think they have a lot to be proud of.

Maybe it's because a lot of inexperienced, unskilled players play Ultras because they're the first-among-equals chapter young players encounter in the rulebooks. If so, we should a) give the noobs a chance to grow, and b) don't blame it on the Ultras. Whatever Chapter is featured in the rulebooks is going to attract a lot of new players.

Anyway, I can't figure it out. 'Sides, I play Orks. Don't much care what color armor dey wearz (though Mork, dem wolf pelts look gud!). Whoever fights best is goin' right on top uv me pointy stikk. Dat's an honor, dat iz!

The primary reasons that I don't like the Smurfs are:

1.) They're too vanilla. Every chapter is like them to the point that they're basically just an ordinary Chapter with a lot of plot armor
2.) They get too much airtime. I'd prefer if the other Chapters could receive some of it so that they were more fluffed out and could receive more recruits
3.) They always come across as douchebags to me
4.) I hate how they're Primarch tried to force his own philosophies onto the other Chapters instead of the teachings of the Chapters' Primogenitors
5.) I hate how they try to force their own ideologies onto other Chapters
6.) they're total hypocrites - they command enough Ultramarian Guard to render them at the fighting strength of a Heresy-era Legion and have the fleet to match. Personally, I think that the only reason Guilliman broke up the other Legions was so that he could make his the most powerful - again, the second part is just my personal opinion

 dusara217 wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
That's some serious Ultrasmurf hate going on. Not sure why so many hate the Ultras.

Ultramarines are GW's poster children for Space Marines, but other than that everything I've read suggests they're more genetically pure, less conflicted, less grimdark and less nasty than most Chapters. Ultramarine rule over Ultramar seems more enlightened, fair and effective and less corrupt than most Imperial leadership. Ultramar is certainly one of the more prosperous domains, and voluntarily exceeds it's tithes in some areas.

There are chapters that beat the Ultras in any one of these areas, but the Ultras seem to have it all. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe people resent having any Chapter (that's not their personal favorite) presented as some kind of exemplar.

Or maybe it's that their name is a horrid pun? Ultramarine is a particular blue color, but it also implies that they're more 'Marine' than any other. Yeah, I could see that being irritating.

Could it be that they go in for classical Roman-style names and imagery?

Maybe people hate Guillman because he missed out on the Siege of Terra? Or because he penned the Codex Astartes?

I dunno, if I was a Marine player I'd think they have a lot to be proud of.

Maybe it's because a lot of inexperienced, unskilled players play Ultras because they're the first-among-equals chapter young players encounter in the rulebooks. If so, we should a) give the noobs a chance to grow, and b) don't blame it on the Ultras. Whatever Chapter is featured in the rulebooks is going to attract a lot of new players.

Anyway, I can't figure it out. 'Sides, I play Orks. Don't much care what color armor dey wearz (though Mork, dem wolf pelts look gud!). Whoever fights best is goin' right on top uv me pointy stikk. Dat's an honor, dat iz!

The primary reasons that I don't like the Smurfs are:

1.) They're too vanilla. Every chapter is like them to the point that they're basically just an ordinary Chapter with a lot of plot armor
2.) They get too much airtime. I'd prefer if the other Chapters could receive some of it so that they were more fluffed out and could receive more recruits
3.) They always come across as douchebags to me
4.) I hate how they're Primarch tried to force his own philosophies onto the other Chapters instead of the teachings of the Chapters' Primogenitors
5.) I hate how they try to force their own ideologies onto other Chapters
6.) they're total hypocrites - they command enough Ultramarian Guard to render them at the fighting strength of a Heresy-era Legion and have the fleet to match. Personally, I think that the only reason Guilliman broke up the other Legions was so that he could make his the most powerful - again, the second part is just my personal opinion

1) Blood Angels and Space Wolves arguably have more Plot Armour then the Ultramarines. The Space Wolves especially. As for being 'normal', the Ultramarines set the standard. Everyone else measures up to them and falls short.

2) Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels all have as much air time as the Ultramarines, if not more. The Ultramarines share what was originally their codex with the other Codex Adherent former legions.


3) And Dark Angels, Grey Knights, or Space Wolves do not? Heck, 90% of the Imperium is filled with douchebags.

4) Guilliman didn't have time to force anything on the split chapters. Unless you mean when they originally split the legions, in which case, the other Primarchs either agreed, or were Russ, Vulkan or Dorn, the former two not having many chapters descended from them anyways.

5) The Ultramarines don't go out of their way to do anything of the like. The Imperium might demand that Chapters adhere to the Codex, but I don't see Marneus Calgar going out of his way to tell people to adhere to the Codex.

6) Really, the PDF are the part you complain about in that regard? Baal and such has a PDF as well, I imagine. The bigger thing to complain about would be the fact that 66% Of all chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, giving Guilliman the largest pool of marines to draw from when he gets out of stasis. On the other hand, he reduced the direct strength of his own Chapter, since he stuck to his own rules when he was still around. He had the largest of all the legions, and as such, the most to lose. The 500 worlds of Ultramar were split, he could have easily kept his little Empire within the Empire if he wanted to keep the most power.

In fact, the Legions splitting hurt him more than any of the other primarchs. The rest had their legions nearly obliterated, which is why the Ultramarines were pivotal in securing the Imperium during the Scouring.

If Calgar were killed, the Ultramarines would do everything they could to reclaim his gauntlets - those are relics of the Primarch and they would risk everything to get those back, even if they couldn't get Calgar himself back.

Tigurius is not a commander, doesn't have the skills to lead the chapter. That's like saying that when a king dies the bishop takes over, two different career paths. Librarians are only similar to captains in terms of leading on the tabletop.


I love how Ultramarine geneseed is now in 75% of all marines and that all the successor chapters owe some sort of fealty to the Ultramarines and recognise the UM CM (Calgar for now) as their superior.
That means that Calgar could call on 3/4 of all Imperial Space Marines - you say they have the strength of a legion...
...before the heresy they were the biggest legion at 250,000.
Calgar could potentially raise a force of 750,000 marines according to the current fluff, that's the equivalent of several legions - they really don't think this stuff out much do they?

Successor chapters don't owe any fealty to their founding chapter, except in the case of the Dark Angels who really only pretended to split their legion.

 Orblivion wrote:
Successor chapters don't owe any fealty to their founding chapter, except in the case of the Dark Angels who really only pretended to split their legion.

Not entirely true, if the Ultramarines were to, say, start a rebellion, then at least 60% of their successors would join them. Ultramarines have direct power over several Chapters who basically follow them around like lapdogs.

I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Successor chapters don't owe any fealty to their founding chapter, except in the case of the Dark Angels who really only pretended to split their legion.

Not entirely true, if the Ultramarines were to, say, start a rebellion, then at least 60% of their successors would join them. Ultramarines have direct power over several Chapters who basically follow them around like lapdogs.

Exactly, the current codex makes it the most significant military force in the Imperium. Then you have the non-astartes military of Ultramar and I wouldn't be surprised if other successor chapters ran similar setups to Ultramar but on a smaller scale.

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Over the comms the ultramarines hear "5 minutes to extraction", then the master of the fleet orders "Load the Vortex Missile".

The honour guard retrieves the pieces of their fallen leader. Several aircraft fly overhead decimating the orks. Thraka teleports away. A storm raven lands and the honour guard embark. As the last of the extracted forces leaves the atmosphere a scan is done of the planet to ensure thraka remains upon it. With the scan complete, and the presence of thraka confirmed, the missile is fired. The planet goes boom.

Two champions of their faction felled in a single day. The loss goes effectivly unnoticed by the galaxy at large. New champions quickly rise to take their place. War goes on.

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Guilliman is the father of the Ultramarines, Calgar is the only master.
p105 under Calgar - it gives one of his titles as Master of the Ultramarines.

So most, if not all the successor chapters owe fealty to Calgar.

Computron wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Guilliman is the father of the Ultramarines, Calgar is the only master.
p105 under Calgar - it gives one of his titles as Master of the Ultramarines.

So most, if not all the successor chapters owe fealty to Calgar.

Still open to interpretation if you ask me. Either way its flat out stupid, so if you are right I will just ignore that bit anyways.

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Guilliman is the father of the Ultramarines, Calgar is the only master.
p105 under Calgar - it gives one of his titles as Master of the Ultramarines.

So most, if not all the successor chapters owe fealty to Calgar.

Still open to interpretation if you ask me. Either way its flat out stupid, so if you are right I will just ignore that bit anyways.

Right, because there's SOOOO much fluff contradicting it. (*hint* *hint* sarcasm *hint* *hint *)

Computron wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Guilliman is the father of the Ultramarines, Calgar is the only master.
p105 under Calgar - it gives one of his titles as Master of the Ultramarines.

So most, if not all the successor chapters owe fealty to Calgar.

yes his title is Master of the Ultramarines, CHAPTER. that does NOT mean the ultramarines sucessors owe the Ultramarines CHAPTER any fealty. Calgar is not the Master of the Ultramarines legion. he is not the "high lord of the sons of Gulliman" he is the chapter master of the ultramarines. and by and large to the ultramarine sucessors that doesn't mean a whole lot beyond some respect. (respect can be lost) notice the lack of a "feast of blades" for the Ultramarines? thats because Gulliman was very clear on the independance of the newly formed chapters.

Sucessor chapters owe nothing to their parent, but as shown time and time again, if the the parent calls for aid, the sucessors jump to it. Look at Baal, when the Blood Angels were on the brink of destruction, their sucessors gave up their own recruits and geneseed to keep the chapter alive and kicking. Recruits and geneseed are a chapter's most valuable resource, so it says a lot. Look at the Genesis Chapter, whose fluff says they serve the lord of macragge if he needs aid.
That said, open rebellion would be another thing entirely. It would certainly be interesting to see what happens if the likes of the Ultramarine called for its sucessors to stage an open civil war.

 Deadshot wrote:
Sucessor chapters owe nothing to their parent, but as shown time and time again, if the the parent calls for aid, the sucessors jump to it. Look at Baal, when the Blood Angels were on the brink of destruction, their sucessors gave up their own recruits and geneseed to keep the chapter alive and kicking. Recruits and geneseed are a chapter's most valuable resource, so it says a lot. Look at the Genesis Chapter, whose fluff says they serve the lord of macragge if he needs aid.
That said, open rebellion would be another thing entirely. It would certainly be interesting to see what happens if the likes of the Ultramarine called for its sucessors to stage an open civil war.

The Genesis Chapter happens to be a Secound Founding chapter so I imagine the more distant the founding the less likely they are to answer a call for aid (or to owe fealty to Lord Macragge - that's the actual title lol).

I'm guessing most sucessor chapters wouldn't follow the Ultramarines in open rebellion since they still owe loyalty first and foremost to the Emperor of Mankind, not to Lord Macragge. But yea, if they were threatened by some outside force, most would answer the call for aid.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
I just looked at it.
It's not 3/4, it;s over 2/3rds are Ultramarine geneseed, so a measly 670,000 or so.
Under successor chapters it states that they do owe fealty to the master of the Ultramarines - p30.

I took that line to mean they owe fealty to Guilliman, not the Ultramarines chapter itself.

Guilliman is the father of the Ultramarines, Calgar is the only master.
p105 under Calgar - it gives one of his titles as Master of the Ultramarines.

So most, if not all the successor chapters owe fealty to Calgar.

Still open to interpretation if you ask me. Either way its flat out stupid, so if you are right I will just ignore that bit anyways.

Right, because there's SOOOO much fluff contradicting it. (*hint* *hint* sarcasm *hint* *hint *)

There isn't a lot of fluff contradicting it, but there is a very key piece of fluff contradicting it. The splitting of the legions and the enforcement of the Codex Astartes on the subsequent chapters. This was all done, by the Ultramarines primarch no less, to avoid that exact situation.

 Orblivion wrote:


Still open to interpretation if you ask me. Either way its flat out stupid, so if you are right I will just ignore that bit anyways.

It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

There isn't a lot of fluff contradicting it, but there is a very key piece of fluff contradicting it. The splitting of the legions and the enforcement of the Codex Astartes on the subsequent chapters. This was all done, by the Ultramarines primarch no less, to avoid that exact situation.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

Personally, how I see it:

Thraka (somehow) kills Calgar (could I please know how, since you did mention certain modifications?)

Thraka tries to press advantage, but enraged Ultras convene around their Lord's body, defending it and retreating with it/murdering the orks.

If Ghazghkull flees/survives, the Ultramarines send more men to hunt him down. Successor Chapters also join the hunt. Thraka is dead by the turn of the century.

Calgar is entombed, relics removed and venerated. Cassius, Tigurius, Helix and the Master of the Forge are in a quandry, as tradition states that Agemman should be the new Chapter Master, yet Sicarius is proving to be a star ascendant. However, unless Calgar declared Sicarius as his successor, Agemman gets the role. Sicarius is promoted to 1st Company Captain and some guy named Titus is promoted to 2nd Company Captain.

The Ultras wouldn't be taken prisoner, they simply wouldn't allow it (cue falling on their swords/fighting to the last man). Nor would they let Ghazghkull leave the planet with Calgar's body.

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

if the Ultramarines can call upon all these chapters where were they during the battle of mcragge? The Ultramarines certinly can call upon some sucessors but that's not because of some legal binding or anything, it's a matter of RESPECT. and I suspect just about EVERY first founding Chapter would have people arriving to help them out in a time of need if they put the call out, sucessors or not. the first founding chapters have MAJOR respect out there

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

if the Ultramarines can call upon all these chapters where were they during the battle of mcragge? The Ultramarines certinly can call upon some sucessors but that's not because of some legal binding or anything, it's a matter of RESPECT. and I suspect just about EVERY first founding Chapter would have people arriving to help them out in a time of need if they put the call out, sucessors or not. the first founding chapters have MAJOR respect out there

The Battle for Macragge was a case where the Ultramarines didn't have long to prepare. Not to mention Macragge is in the top 10 best defend list of planets in the Imperium, with most if not all the other 9 being in our Solar system. The tyranids were a nee enemy, and had so far only taken on standard worlds on the outer ridges of the galaxy. No one ever dreamed they could even hold a candle to the Ultramarine's fleet, nor have a hope in hell of taking Macragge while the Ultramarines and their PDF had a breath in their bodies, nor did ANYONE think that they would wound Calgar or come anywhere close to outsmarting him. Hive Fleet Behemoth was a slap in the face for everyone.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

And? Personally it is quite rare for a chapter master to go traitor. Chief libarians also lead the chapter in finding traces of chaos.

I don't think it is that bad, but it is rare.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

And? Personally it is quite rare for a chapter master to go traitor. Chief libarians also lead the chapter in finding traces of chaos.

I don't think it is that bad, but it is rare.

It's a "unlikely given how strigent we now are with recruitment, but let's make sure," deal. Sure, chances of a Chapter Master becoming a traitor is low and rare, but should it happen, the potential damage is immense. A Chief Librarian is even more likely to go bad, given his connections to the Warp and the much larger potential power gain from turning. Not to mention that it's easier for a Chief Librarian to turn. A non-psychic CM can be examined by the Librarians for taint, but who will check the most powerful Librarian about? Even if one of the other Epistolaries has a look, the CL can easily just hide the information from sight.

I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

I think that game would have much better if Titus was voice by Samuel L. Jackson. "Knock Knock! Ultramarines are here motherfether!"

 Deadshot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

I think that game would have much better if Titus was voice by Samuel L. Jackson. "Knock Knock! Ultramarines are here motherfether!"

Yeah - that obviously would have been better! lol.

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

it's not that uncommon. any Chapter that rules it's homeworld will have the local defence forces report to them. thing is these are DEFENCE forces. they're not used along side the chapter unless they're defending their home. generally they're not deployed away from home eaither as the worlds are not subject to the Imperial Tithe (Ultramar occasionally offers up a few regiments to serve with the guard because they're in a good position to do so, but it's volenatry)

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

it's not that uncommon. any Chapter that rules it's homeworld will have the local defence forces report to them. thing is these are DEFENCE forces. they're not used along side the chapter unless they're defending their home. generally they're not deployed away from home eaither as the worlds are not subject to the Imperial Tithe (Ultramar occasionally offers up a few regiments to serve with the guard because they're in a good position to do so, but it's volenatry)

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Ultramar can have Guardsmen Regiments because it would be a waste if it wasn't. If I remember correctly the realm of ultramar also has a forgeworld that is often in service of the Ultramarines.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

 dusara217 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

hence why I believe Guilliman managed to create his own empire with the Imperium being exactly what he wanted it to be.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

hence why I believe Guilliman managed to create his own empire with the Imperium being exactly what he wanted it to be.

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

No they actually are a codex non-compliant group they are not part of the company structure which is what the codex says.

Wait you misread this bit: " I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. "

 Asherian Command wrote:

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

No they actually are a codex non-compliant group they are not part of the company structure which is what the codex says.

Wait you misread this bit: " I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. "

Yes, the group is. The individuals that make up that group however are dispersed around the Chapter. Not all in one group together.

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

ok, you DO realize the Ultramarines aren't going to come knocking at your chapters door and take their toys away right? if you want a reason to have an extra reserve company, the only reason you need is "due to the chapters heavy preferance for melee assault tactics the chapter maintains a 3rd reserve assault company" see simple as that!

The codex is a set of guidelines, Chapters vary in how restrictive they follow it. take dark angels for example they MOSTLY follow the codex, 10 companies, etc. but because of the way the deathwing works, independant companies may maintain vetern squads outside of the first. the ravenwing's bike/land speeder focus is also slightly outside of codex, according to the codex the 2nd company should be a battle company. yet the Ultramarines aren't hanging out at the rock screaming at the dark angels to "REPENT YOUR HEATHEN WAYS!"

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

I sincerly doubt the codex talks about local planetary defence forces at all. in fact given the WIDE variaty of chapters with planets and differnt approuches I suspect the codex basicly says "you need to ensure you have a good supply of good quality troops. this can be gained any number of ways!"

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

It's not a Planetary Defense Force, It's a Sector Defense Force composed of enough guard Regiments to stage a crusade against the Tau without the aid of anyone but the Navy. They also have a Sector Navy with power that is at least three times more powerful than your average Sector Defence Fleet on top of the Chapter Fleet.

just a vbit of an exaggeration. the Ultramarines only control 9 habbitable worlds, thats huge by the standards of space Marines but it's certinly tiny on the scale of the IoM

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

It's not a Planetary Defense Force, It's a Sector Defense Force composed of enough guard Regiments to stage a crusade against the Tau without the aid of anyone but the Navy. They also have a Sector Navy with power that is at least three times more powerful than your average Sector Defence Fleet on top of the Chapter Fleet.

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

BrianDavion wrote:
just a vbit of an exaggeration. the Ultramarines only control 9 habbitable worlds, thats huge by the standards of space Marines but it's certinly tiny on the scale of the IoM

The fact that they control more than one world is almost unprecedented amongst Space Maqrines chapters.

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

Let's be clear. I was exaggerating. 9 PDF forces, no matter how well trained, wil never, ever, in a million years, rival the might of a Space Marine Legion. A Legion is the most powerful fighting force in human history. Sure, maybe not largest, 100, 000 isn't big. But when you consider that each Space Marine is worth 10 regular humans, that increases to the equivalent of 1 million. And under the command of Primarchs that number increases 10 fold. Not to mention all their armoured support and personal wargear far outstrips anything a regular human, even Ultramar SDF, will ever get. I was exaggerating about it being Badab version 2, as obvious its a case of 1 chapter with tens of thousands of human auxiliary as opposed to 1 chapter with 3 allied chapters and 10s of millions of humans.

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Actually Badab was the next Ultramar. After Lugft Huron finally lost his rag with the Badab Sector governors and essentially declared martial law with Astral Claw governors installed to keep control, the Realm of Ultramar was supposedly the big legal precedent he used to justify this to Terra.

locarno24 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Actually Badab was the next Ultramar. After Lugft Huron finally lost his rag with the Badab Sector governors and essentially declared martial law with Astral Claw governors installed to keep control, the Realm of Ultramar was supposedly the big legal precedent he used to justify this to Terra.

Badab War was what I meant. It was a sarcastic jab meaning "Ultramar will be the second Badab war of Marine vs Marine on a huge scale."

 Deadshot wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

Let's be clear. I was exaggerating. 9 PDF forces, no matter how well trained, wil never, ever, in a million years, rival the might of a Space Marine Legion. A Legion is the most powerful fighting force in human history. Sure, maybe not largest, 100, 000 isn't big. But when you consider that each Space Marine is worth 10 regular humans, that increases to the equivalent of 1 million. And under the command of Primarchs that number increases 10 fold. Not to mention all their armoured support and personal wargear far outstrips anything a regular human, even Ultramar SDF, will ever get. I was exaggerating about it being Badab version 2, as obvious its a case of 1 chapter with tens of thousands of human auxiliary as opposed to 1 chapter with 3 allied chapters and 10s of millions of humans.

The Ultramarines have several "lapdog Chapters" that would undoubtedly rebel alongside of them in the event of them rebelling, plus a few of the other First Foundings might consider supporting them (*cough* Space Wolves *cough* *cough*), as they are a well-renowned Chapter with unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor, plus you'd have their hundreds of successors who would question their own loyalties and there would undoubtedly be a few who would join the Ultramarines even if they're not lapdogs. So there, you have at least a few dozen other Chapters assisting in the event of rebelling.

Also, the Ultramarines do not have 9 PDFs. They have SEVERAL HUNDRED AUXILIARY REGIMENTS. In case you don't know what auxiliary means, let me translate for you: several hundred Imperial Guard regiments. These regiments receive the materials and equipment of 9 full-output, well-organized Civilized Worlds (lasguns, high-quality armor, etc.) with massive populations. On top of that, you also have the fact that the Ultramarines would provide for them the best training you can get for "ordinary" human troops.

and your evidance that the "lapdogs" would side with the ultramarines is? *crickets* yeah thats what I thought.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

that's because Ultramar is part of the Ultramarine's chapter fief. no chapter fief pays the Imperial tithe. (as their tithe is basicly the services of the space marines)

BrianDavion wrote:
and your evidance that the "lapdogs" would side with the ultramarines is? *crickets* yeah thats what I thought.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

that's because Ultramar is part of the Ultramarine's chapter fief. no chapter fief pays the Imperial tithe. (as their tithe is basicly the services of the space marines)

Are you kidding me? It's called common sense. If a (in comparison) non influential Chapter like that had started a war as massive as the Badab War, imagine if the First Founding Chapter whose Successor number over 600 Chapters were to rebel. They would acquire followers through a combination of guile and respect before the war even started. If Calgar were to orchestrate an insurrection, then he wouldn't just up and say "feth you High Lords! Face Imperium Secundus!" No! He would decide which Chapters would be the most likely to join the Ultramarines and he would send emissaries to them or speak with them himself. He would be cunning and insidious, and one he had garnered the support of some Chapters (which wouldn't really take long), THEN he would open fire and secede. The Ultramarines have more than sufficient respect and loyalty from their successors ,and hell maybe even from a few of the other First Founding Chapters, that they would be able to gather followers with relative ease in comparison with if ,say, the Angels Vermillion decided to secede.

Anyway, I think if the Ultras were to stray for the Imperial light it would be through the Tyranid-path through infestation. So think Calgar inviiting all his brother-chapters to a toast, and it ends with them toasting under the six-limbered Emperor. Pretty scary thought? Don't you agree? After all Macragge had much of Tyranids infecting them.

What would happen if the nids got ahold of Mr Popsicle himself? How would primarch dna go for the nids? Would make for some interesting new types I think.

The Company master of the first Company would probably become the Next Chaper Master. Sicuarius could do it combat wise, but he is still to young and inexperienced.

If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

Computron wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

Ha! The Smurfs are anything but the best and brightest. Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are brighter, and I'd say there at least five Chapters I can think of offhand that are better. Hell, Minotaurs are more effective than the Smurfs.


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Plus, Space Marines barely do anything for the IoM. If they were exterminated, all that the Imperium would lose are some Ancient Special Forces.

They are the brightest. No question there.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They are the brightest. No question there.

Bright = intelligent. Blood Ravens are composed of a very large portion of Psykers and receive far more education, which will make them more intelligent. Blood Angels are artists and craftsmen, which will exercise creativity and make them more intelligent. Raven Guard exercise excessive use of stealth, which requires an excess of intelligence or else everybody would get discovered and/or raped anally. 1k Sons are literally ALL warrior/scholars and receive a huge biff to intelligence from that.

Or

Bright = skin color
Raven Guard have literally paper-white skin

Or

Bright = armour color
There are like a trillion Chapters with white armour, so, no.


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Or
Bright = positive outlook
Blood Angels believe in the possibility of things changing for the better, and thus they are more positive

Brightest as in the armour-category of course. Hell they doesn't look so bright in anything else.

The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

 Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

This. No other Chapter has set up an actual society that benefits the Imperium more than the UM. All other Chapter have mainly been based around killing xenos, but the UM did this and more for their people. Whilst they may not be the humanitarians the Salamanders are, or the "for the people" rebels the Wolves are, the UM actually created a stable, thriving sub-empire that is countless times better than most places in the Imperium.


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 dusara217 wrote:

Computron wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
If papa smurf died we would all rejoice because the rest of the smurfs would go down with him.

Without the best and brightest chapter though the Imperium would cease to exist.
I think if the Ultramarines were wiped out they'd replace the entire chapter from genestock and "lapdog" chapters.

Ha! The Smurfs are anything but the best and brightest. Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are brighter, and I'd say there at least five Chapters I can think of offhand that are better. Hell, Minotaurs are more effective than the Smurfs.


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Plus, Space Marines barely do anything for the IoM. If they were exterminated, all that the Imperium would lose are some Ancient Special Forces.

1. The UM are definately one of the better Chapters out there. I will agree that the BA are pretty good too, but the Ravens? Half the Chapter went traitor, I could easily think of better Chapters. And just nope on the Minotaurs - while they may be good at Marine killing, they are hardly more effective than the Smurfs - could they repel an entire 'Nid invasion of their home soil? I think not.

2. Except from critical alpha strikes, choke point defences, morale boosting and propaganda, not to mention their extreme effectiveness over nearly every other Imperial asset of a similar size?

 Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them
They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them
They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

hoard tactics aren't all that effective. as you're using a lot of resources to get something done. fact is if the Minotaurs wheren't the High Lords pets they'd not have survived.

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Ultramarines as a general rule are good at economics and setting up efficient infrastructures, trading routes, etc. So Emperor knows they are the smartest because most people don't even have a clue what that even means.

Actually, that was Guilliman that set that up, not the Ultramarines. The Smurfs just maintain it along with their legions of clerks and secretaries and bureaucrats.

Also, I didn't say that the Blood Ravens were more effective or better than the Smurfs, I said MORE INTELLIGENT. Big difference.

Also, "best" is a matter of opinion and perspective, unless you're going off of a specific series of statistics, in which case I would love to read them
They may be AMONG the best, but they are not at all "the best period".

Also, I said Minotaurs are MORE EFFECTIVE. They get the job done and they get it done fast, due to their horde tactics. Smurfs operate in smaller groups and thus generally can't win nearly as quickly or effectively as the Minotaurs, who just throw the entire Chapter into a single battle with no heed for casualties since they can replace their dead like its nobody's business.

hoard tactics aren't all that effective. as you're using a lot of resources to get something done. fact is if the Minotaurs wheren't the High Lords pets they'd not have survived.

I said effective, not efficient. Learn the difference.

Keep it up!