Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi,
Let's say that Marneus Calgar and a more powerful version of Ghazghkull Thraka fought and Thraka won by killing Calgar. We won't worry about how Thraka got more powerful.
Normally, if there was enough of him left, I'd say they would put him in a Venerable Dreadnaught. But let's say there wasn't enough of him left for a dreadnaught.
Setting all that aside, what do you think would happen if he died?
Here is what I think will happen:

Time of death: Thraka's power klaw overloads Calgar's armour power source.
5 seconds after death: Thraka gives the order to take as many remaining marines prisoner.
5 hours after death: Everyone but some honour guard, Captain Sicarus, Varro Tigurius and Chaplain Cassius have been taken prisoner.
10 hours after death: Thraka's forces leave the battlefield with what remains of Calgar (probably his armour)
24 hours after death: Tigurius announces to the rest of the Ultramarines that he is now chapter master, and he will teach another librarian to be a master psyker.
Beyond 24 hours: Calgar's death is mourned for the next 100 years or so.

What about you?

Thraka kills Calgar.

If possible, intern in a Dreadnought. if not, bury him when fighting's done. Thraka does the orky thing "Smash the blueboys!"

If the Ultramarines survive, Captain Agemman becomes Chapter Master. If he is dead, Sicarius becomes Chapter Master. Calgar is given the standard honouring plus a bit extra because he's the best Ultramarine ever and all that jazz. Then move on. Done.

-Ultramarines would not be taken prisoner, they would either win or they would die.
-Highly unlikely that a Librarian would be Chapter Master of a chapter like the Ultramarines. You also can't just name yourself as Chapter Master.
-Calgar would be revered for as long as the Ultramarines themselves exist, but the chapter would move on.

I'm sure Tigurius has been advisor to previous Chapter Masters, so I assume he would continue to do so. I imagine Cassius and him would make the decision as to whether Sicarius or Agemman would succeed Calgar, or at the very least convene the chapter council to debate the topic. Unless Calgar explicitly states his successor.
Calgar himself would likely be honoured and the Chapter mourn him forever more, maybe rename a building after him.

Hmm, I'm not sure the Ultramarines would move on that quickly. They'd move on really quickly in the sense that they'd pick a new chapter master straight away but space marines tend to be pretty vengeful and care a lot about stains to their honour. A proud founding chapter like the Ultramarines would likely try to hunt Ghazghkull down and ramp up their involvement in zones where Ghazghkull is active. Depending on their success, this could drag on for centuries. Of course they'd still put Ultramar first.


Also, I just read Macragge's Honour yesterday and in it
So yea, they are almost every bit as stubborn and vengeful as say the Dark Angels and wouldn't move on that quickly.

I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He would rip up his armor and make his mek create a kustom armor that fits him with those pieces. The corpse of calgar he would mount on his battlewagon for display.

Well Ghaz would slaughter the rest of the ultramarines... Why would he stop?

Also how would Ghaz get to the ultramarines? I think nids would kill the ultramarines or Honsou would come and kill them off not Ghaz.

Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

KaptinBadrukk wrote:Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

Grey Templar wrote:The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

The best Ultramarine you’ve never heard of /hipster

When Calgar dies, which will happen eventually, even if the timeline never advances to that point, he’s the next in line. Of course, rumors persist that Sicarius is in position to jump ahead, and when things go down, might end up in charge. I’m not sure exactly how internal politics work in the Ultras, but hubris and pride are our flaws. The ugly rumors of chapter infighting might be just that, or a prelude to a civil war within the chapter.

Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

 Nevelon wrote:

KaptinBadrukk wrote:Thanks! But I am wundering: Who is Captain Agemann?

Grey Templar wrote:The current Captain of the Ultramarine 1st company.

The best Ultramarine you’ve never heard of /hipster

When Calgar dies, which will happen eventually, even if the timeline never advances to that point, he’s the next in line. Of course, rumors persist that Sicarius is in position to jump ahead, and when things go down, might end up in charge. I’m not sure exactly how internal politics work in the Ultras, but hubris and pride are our flaws. The ugly rumors of chapter infighting might be just that, or a prelude to a civil war within the chapter.

I would say sicarius would be the best canidate to replace him. He is the captain of the first company - doesn't that make him next in line?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

While I’m sure it happens in some chapters, I think librarian CMs are going to be rare. The traditional leadership path is the line officers, aka captains. With them generally working their way up to the lower numbered companies, so the captain of the 1st is generally second in command of the chapter, etc. While the head librarian, chaplain, apothecary are important to the leadership and direction of the chapter, they are support personal, not command.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do you guys think that Tigurius will not be chapter master?

Generally speaking the space marines look upon psykers from the distance almost as pariahs. They are truly fearful of their powers and sense a tainting within them. This really hurts their chances at leading a chapter. Unless you are a Greyknight - where everyone is a psyker.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I would say sicarius would be the best canidate to replace him. He is the captain of the first company - doesn't that make him next in line?

Sicarius is captain of the 2nd company. He replaced Agemman in that position after the battle of Macragge, when Agemman replaced Invictus as the captain of the 1st. Who as we know where killed to a man defending the polar fortress. Sicarius was perviously captain of the 5th.

Tigurius would not be Chapter Master as he is Chief Librarian, the two roles are entirely separate in a codex chapter, he will always be an advisor to the Chapter Master, as will the Master of Sanctity, the Chief Apothecary, Master of the Forge.
Agemman is Captain of the 1st company, he was promoted after the Battle of Macragge, after Saul Invictus, the previous 1st Captain died with the rest of the 1st company. Agemman was Captain of the 2nd company previously, and was succeeded by Sicarius, who is Calgar's protégé, but Agemman is the rightful heir to the throne of Ultramar.
Agemman holds a lot of sway with Cassius, whilst Sicarius has close ties to Tigurius, but there is no definitive answer to who will succeed Calgar.
Also, remember who was pegged as the next Blood Angels Chapter Master? Yeah Tycho didn't last long, but Karlaen is still being alive and awesome.

Edit: ninja'd by Nev.

Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

if Calgar was killed, the Ultramarines would rally and make every effort to recover the body, and extract revenge if they couldn't. if the fight was truely lost they'd retreat.

Once the fighting was done they'd mourn, and they'd also choose their new chapter master. for the duration the leader of the 1st company would likely be acting chapter master, and the Ultramarines would then choose their new master. here's where it gets tricky.. we don't actually KNOW how one is chosen. However given the fluff for Sacirus it's clearly not a clear line of "1st company leader becomes chapter master" I would guess some sort of conclave where the chapter master is chosen. I'd GUESS each company commander, as well as the cheif librarian, Master of Sancity, Cheif apocathy and anyone else the Chapter Master has given special honors too (possiably sergent Chronos for example) has a vote.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He wouldn't fit in it. Ghazzy's almost the size of a dreadnought.

Anywayz, i think that nothing special would have happened if Calgar Got killed. He's not that special (don't tell Matt). Besides, one of the two - Sicarus or Agem...Agam...Termie guy will become a new CM. The way it's gona be choosen doesn't matter much. Than the chapter will have another major bugurt announced: hunt down Ghazzy. And many unnecessery grimdark stuff will be done to achieve it.

thing is, ultimatly I'm sure somewhere in the last ten thousand years a Ultramarines chaptermaster HAS been killed by orks chapter masters die.they're no exception to the rule that no space marine has yet died of old age. even if we ASSUME Dante's lifespan is normal for a chaptermaster, even if we ASSUME he'd been chaptermaster for that entire 1000 years of his life...and that 1000 year reigns are the NORM for a SM chapter master, then every first founding chapter will have had at LEAST 10 chapter masters. the Ultramarines, like every other chapter, has lost chapter masters before, and will lose their current ones eventually. losing a chapter master doesn't break a Chapter.

There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure thrakka would take clagars armor because I'm sure he'd think it was pretty bad ass. Luk at da boss humez doublz smashas. Attac dem to me smasha!

He wouldn't fit in it. Ghazzy's almost the size of a dreadnought.

Anywayz, i think that nothing special would have happened if Calgar Got killed. He's not that special (don't tell Matt). Besides, one of the two - Sicarus or Agem...Agam...Termie guy will become a new CM. The way it's gona be choosen doesn't matter much. Than the chapter will have another major bugurt announced: hunt down Ghazzy. And many unnecessery grimdark stuff will be done to achieve it.

Don't orks love to steal and modifiy the gear of their slain enemies? Wasn't suggesting he wear the arm - just break off the power fists and modify them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't orks love to steal and modifiy the gear of their slain enemies? Wasn't suggesting he wear the arm - just break off the power fists and modify them.

I'm pretty sure something like this would happen. Orks often collect shiny trophies from worthy opponents. And space marine chapter master is definitely a worthy one. And has enough shiny stuff to choose from! The only problem is an ork got to win in the first place.

I will throw the major curveball at this topic. If Calgar were to die I do not think either Agemman or Sicarus become chapter master. The legion is too divided on who they would support. Therefore, both stay in command of their companies and one, Uriel Ventris captain of the 4th, becomes chapter master of the Ultramarines with the backing of potential power players like Tigurius and Cassius.

If any other Captain were to take command, it would be Fabian, he's a hero of the chapter. Ventris is barely out of the 10th company, he is the least competent, most unorthodox, least decorated, youngest, captain in the chapter

Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

 Generalstoner wrote:
I will throw the major curveball at this topic. If Calgar were to die I do not think either Agemman or Sicarus become chapter master. The legion is too divided on who they would support. Therefore, both stay in command of their companies and one, Uriel Ventris captain of the 4th, becomes chapter master of the Ultramarines with the backing of potential power players like Tigurius and Cassius.

I'm sorry, but the Ultramarines are dogmatic to the Codex and too hy the book to start a war over this. Sicarius is ambitious but not vain enough to claim any sort of legitimate claim to Chapter Master, nor would others support him. Agemman is next Chapter Master, unless he dies too. Tiguirius and Cassius are wise enough to give him the postion. He is also first captain. That means he is the best among all the Ultramarine Captains. If Sicarius was worthy of the postion he would have leapfrogged Agemman then, not once Calgar is dead. Unless Calgar explicitly announces to the Chapter "Sicarius is my successor", Agemman is in.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

And next in line...look here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632582.page

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Maybe the whole chapter of Ultramarines would just collapse so we can all live happily ever after after the death of Calgar while they get devoured by Tyranids?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
There have been 77 chapter masters for the Ultramarines.

And next in line...look here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632582.page

Why not? It seems like that right now. And honestly I wouldn't fell a frakking tear.