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 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

if the Ultramarines can call upon all these chapters where were they during the battle of mcragge? The Ultramarines certinly can call upon some sucessors but that's not because of some legal binding or anything, it's a matter of RESPECT. and I suspect just about EVERY first founding Chapter would have people arriving to help them out in a time of need if they put the call out, sucessors or not. the first founding chapters have MAJOR respect out there

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Computron wrote:
It's not open to interpretation, that's how they've unthinkingly written it.

Almost everything in 40k is open to interpretation. For instance, the line in the codex you refer to says "master of the Ultramarines", not "Master of the Ultramarines". They are not using it as a proper noun, so I would argue that they are not referring to anyone who holds the title of "Master", and are instead referring to the master, which would be Guilliman.

Except the Dark Angels and the Black Templars are two examples that ignore this and the Blood Angels would be the same given that they all have the same problem with the black rage, red thirst thing. Also, the Primarch hasn't been around for 10,000 years.

I do agree with you though, "successors" are not junior branches of the Ultramarines chapter owing fealty to Calgar. I imagine as Chapter Master of the successor chapter called the Ultramarines (because they are a successor as well) he has some kind of ceremonial role as his chapter was able to have the name and much of the trappings of the legion. In reality though, Calgar is no better than the Chapter Master of any other Ultramarine successor.

The way it's written in the current codex though...Calgar could call on over 2/3rds of the space marines in the galaxy to come to his aid...and they'd come.

Yes the Dark Angels lied and the Black Templars just ignored it. This is different though, this is the chapter of the primarch who actually enforced it going completely against his own rule, and in far greater numbers than the Dark Angels and Black Templars combined.

The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

if the Ultramarines can call upon all these chapters where were they during the battle of mcragge? The Ultramarines certinly can call upon some sucessors but that's not because of some legal binding or anything, it's a matter of RESPECT. and I suspect just about EVERY first founding Chapter would have people arriving to help them out in a time of need if they put the call out, sucessors or not. the first founding chapters have MAJOR respect out there

The Battle for Macragge was a case where the Ultramarines didn't have long to prepare. Not to mention Macragge is in the top 10 best defend list of planets in the Imperium, with most if not all the other 9 being in our Solar system. The tyranids were a nee enemy, and had so far only taken on standard worlds on the outer ridges of the galaxy. No one ever dreamed they could even hold a candle to the Ultramarine's fleet, nor have a hope in hell of taking Macragge while the Ultramarines and their PDF had a breath in their bodies, nor did ANYONE think that they would wound Calgar or come anywhere close to outsmarting him. Hive Fleet Behemoth was a slap in the face for everyone.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

And? Personally it is quite rare for a chapter master to go traitor. Chief libarians also lead the chapter in finding traces of chaos.

I don't think it is that bad, but it is rare.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Cato Sicarus would probalby succeed the current Captain of first company, Cato's got more battle honors and a very, very illustrious career as captain of second company.

Also, Librarians never are allowed the position of Chapter Master. It explicitly goes against the Codex.

What? The Blood Ravens and several chapters have a Librarian as a chapter master.

It is not stated anywhere. That was made up and you know it.



The fact is I highly doubt ghazzy would kill Calgar, because one thing. Calgar is in ultramar, and Ghazzy is in Armaggedon. Though I am pretty much insured he might get killed by a prime hive tyrant.

It does go against the ethos of the Codex though. The Codex was made to avoid giving too much power to any single commander. A Chapter MAster is powerful, but should he go rogue and the Chief Libby stay loyal, he'll have a huge problem on his hands. And vice-versa. A Chief Librarian is powerful, maybe even having the loyalty of all his Librarians under him, but he won't have access to vehicles, fleets or large numbers, meaning that any Librarius uprising has a good chance of being put down. But put the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian as the same person gives him unrestricted control to not only to the Chapter as a whole but direct access to corrupt the other Librarians, and has the loyalty and respect of the Captains, plus his own personal prowess being augmented by his psychic might.

And? Personally it is quite rare for a chapter master to go traitor. Chief libarians also lead the chapter in finding traces of chaos.

I don't think it is that bad, but it is rare.

It's a "unlikely given how strigent we now are with recruitment, but let's make sure," deal. Sure, chances of a Chapter Master becoming a traitor is low and rare, but should it happen, the potential damage is immense. A Chief Librarian is even more likely to go bad, given his connections to the Warp and the much larger potential power gain from turning. Not to mention that it's easier for a Chief Librarian to turn. A non-psychic CM can be examined by the Librarians for taint, but who will check the most powerful Librarian about? Even if one of the other Epistolaries has a look, the CL can easily just hide the information from sight.

I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

I think that game would have much better if Titus was voice by Samuel L. Jackson. "Knock Knock! Ultramarines are here motherfether!"

 Deadshot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the ultra marines. Have to admit I felt they were very vanilla before I played the Space Marine video game. After I played that game I started to like the ultra marines a whole lot more.

"Open the door gardsmen - It's the ultra marines" Capt Titus
Thats right - the ultra marines son. Something about the arrogance to call yourself ultra anything kind of like superman I just think is awesome.

I think that game would have much better if Titus was voice by Samuel L. Jackson. "Knock Knock! Ultramarines are here motherfether!"

Yeah - that obviously would have been better! lol.

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

it's not that uncommon. any Chapter that rules it's homeworld will have the local defence forces report to them. thing is these are DEFENCE forces. they're not used along side the chapter unless they're defending their home. generally they're not deployed away from home eaither as the worlds are not subject to the Imperial Tithe (Ultramar occasionally offers up a few regiments to serve with the guard because they're in a good position to do so, but it's volenatry)

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarines have several lapdog Chapters that basically subserviate themselves to the Ultramarines. Marneus Calgar also, as the rule of the Realm of Ultramar, commands a force of millions of Ultramarian Guardsmen who are better equipped and trained than ordinary Guardsmen, AND he has command over the Ultramarines Chapter, AND several lapdog Chapters, AND he can call on the aid of several hundred Chapters should he have a repeat of Hive Fleet Dakka, AND he has a fleet the likes of which could rival the fleet of a Segmentum.

Yes and no.

The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has a seperate legal persona, Lord Macragge, who occupies the same body. This is true for a lot of chapter masters - Dante is recognised by the Imperium as Lord Baal, for example, and Grimnar as Lord Fenris.

The title is usually irrelevant, because it's a planetary lord-governorship of a world with a tithe grade of Aptus Non, and usually feral, hostile or both.

Lord Macragge, however, is the lord-governor of a populous, civilized and generally successful world (at least it was before the tyranids turned up) and more importantly is in turn also Lord Ultramar, who is a subsector governor. Which gives him direct authority over a sector's worth of PDF forces, and indirect authority over a subsector battlefleet in addition to the Chapter fleet. The Chapter fleet is no bigger than any other chapters - the last time it was listed in a codex it was something like three battle barges and eight strike cruisers. A subsector fleet is similar; maybe a dozen capital ships of all classes. The fleet that destroyed Behemoth was primarily an Imperial Navy segmentum fleet, not anything under Calgar's command.

One key thing to remember is that the heresy era 'realm of ultramar' doesn't exist anymore. It was broken up at the same time the legion was - not to mention that a substantial proportion of the "five hundred worlds" didn't survive the war.



As to succession; theoretically, it's expected but not compulsory for it to go to the First Captain - in this case Severus Agemman. However, according to Codex Space Marines, Cato Sicarius is widely considered the expected heir to Calgar. The Strike Force Ultra dataslate states that Agemman "is considered too valuable in his current role to be advanced to higher command" - just goes to show; never be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted....

In the short term after Calgar's death, Agemman takes over until a new chapter master is formally selected. One of his titles is Regent of Ultramar - he is Calgar's formal deputy both as Chapter Master and Lord Macragge if Marneus is off somewhere else.

So what your saying is, any Chapter can command a huge-as-balls army so long as it's "PDF" ?!?! note to self, make a new DIY Chapter...

it's not that uncommon. any Chapter that rules it's homeworld will have the local defence forces report to them. thing is these are DEFENCE forces. they're not used along side the chapter unless they're defending their home. generally they're not deployed away from home eaither as the worlds are not subject to the Imperial Tithe (Ultramar occasionally offers up a few regiments to serve with the guard because they're in a good position to do so, but it's volenatry)

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Ultramar can have Guardsmen Regiments because it would be a waste if it wasn't. If I remember correctly the realm of ultramar also has a forgeworld that is often in service of the Ultramarines.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

 dusara217 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

hence why I believe Guilliman managed to create his own empire with the Imperium being exactly what he wanted it to be.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

Well for all reasons ultramar is a fortress world, and the ultramarines hold alot of sway over many imperials and the high lords of terra would look the other way.

Exactly. They're hypocrites

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

hence why I believe Guilliman managed to create his own empire with the Imperium being exactly what he wanted it to be.

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

No they actually are a codex non-compliant group they are not part of the company structure which is what the codex says.

Wait you misread this bit: " I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. "

 Asherian Command wrote:

They do not have an extra reserve company, and Tyrannic War Veterans are not auggested in any way to be a seperate company. They are inter-company and just have like a unifying symbol to show their status or something.

No they actually are a codex non-compliant group they are not part of the company structure which is what the codex says.

Wait you misread this bit: " I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. "

Yes, the group is. The individuals that make up that group however are dispersed around the Chapter. Not all in one group together.

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

Yup. I hate the ultramarines because for some reason, I have to have a reason as to why I have an extra reserve company. And yet they get away with having how many Tyranic War Veterans?

The chapter is full of itself.

ok, you DO realize the Ultramarines aren't going to come knocking at your chapters door and take their toys away right? if you want a reason to have an extra reserve company, the only reason you need is "due to the chapters heavy preferance for melee assault tactics the chapter maintains a 3rd reserve assault company" see simple as that!

The codex is a set of guidelines, Chapters vary in how restrictive they follow it. take dark angels for example they MOSTLY follow the codex, 10 companies, etc. but because of the way the deathwing works, independant companies may maintain vetern squads outside of the first. the ravenwing's bike/land speeder focus is also slightly outside of codex, according to the codex the 2nd company should be a battle company. yet the Ultramarines aren't hanging out at the rock screaming at the dark angels to "REPENT YOUR HEATHEN WAYS!"

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

I sincerly doubt the codex talks about local planetary defence forces at all. in fact given the WIDE variaty of chapters with planets and differnt approuches I suspect the codex basicly says "you need to ensure you have a good supply of good quality troops. this can be gained any number of ways!"

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

It's not a Planetary Defense Force, It's a Sector Defense Force composed of enough guard Regiments to stage a crusade against the Tau without the aid of anyone but the Navy. They also have a Sector Navy with power that is at least three times more powerful than your average Sector Defence Fleet on top of the Chapter Fleet.

just a vbit of an exaggeration. the Ultramarines only control 9 habbitable worlds, thats huge by the standards of space Marines but it's certinly tiny on the scale of the IoM

 dusara217 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Now, I know for a fact that the Ultramarian Guard frequently deploys to systems around Ultramar, inside and outside of it. Logic is null and void in Smurf lands.

yes yes it is, as I said they're often deployed essentially as guard regiments because Ultramar despite not having to do so, is in a position to do so and is willing to do so. In short they take on more responsabilities then they legally have to. we call that going above and beyond the call of duty. my point though is that the Ultramarines themselves don't pack up a few regiments of the Ultramar auxilery to accompany their companies into battle.

No, that is taking excess power for marneus calgar. Calgar essentially has the authority of a legion master at his fingertips which is in direct violation of the codex

PDF, even a larger PDF like Ultramar, is pitiful compared to a Chapter of 1000, never mind a Legion of 100, 000 like the average Praetor, or 200, 000 as was the case of the Ultras.

It's not a Planetary Defense Force, It's a Sector Defense Force composed of enough guard Regiments to stage a crusade against the Tau without the aid of anyone but the Navy. They also have a Sector Navy with power that is at least three times more powerful than your average Sector Defence Fleet on top of the Chapter Fleet.

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

BrianDavion wrote:
just a vbit of an exaggeration. the Ultramarines only control 9 habbitable worlds, thats huge by the standards of space Marines but it's certinly tiny on the scale of the IoM

The fact that they control more than one world is almost unprecedented amongst Space Maqrines chapters.

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Apologies, its 9 decently trained planetary militias. By the Emperor, Ultramar is the next Badab! Hide you children, the end is nigh!

Let me re-emphasise this; 9 PDF forces of 10,000 or so human soldiers; vs a Space Marine Legion of 200, 000 Astartes, vehicles like Land Raiders, Fleets that would demolish 'modern' Navy Battlegroups, superheavy tanks that are far superior to anything the PDF or IG have access to, alongside Titan support and a Primarch to lead them.

But, for Ultramar these 9 PDF forces consists of hundreds of above decently-trained regiments --

In the case of Ultramar, however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxilia regiments, ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard when the need arises. -- Codex: Space Marines. "Ultramar". P23

Ultramarines have been made out to be a sort of giant: they are the most well-off, if not the most powerful, Space Marine Chapter in the IoM. And it exactly because of this, if Calgar were dead, Ultramar would have felt no more than the grief that is the death of a venerable Space Marine Chapter Master, who led the most beloved Chapter in Ultramar -- they will remained one of the most well-protected system (barring the Nids), there will be no unrest, no chaos.

The thing about the Baddab war is, one chapter had several closely-tied SM Chapter allies (something the Ultramarines are known for having) and the so-called "Tyrand's Legion", supposedly some "tens of millions of human troops" strong (Lexicanum, "Baddab War"), it withheld its gene-tithe (something Ultramarine doesn't do) and the Imperial tithe (what the Ultramarines are effectively doing, albeit it's unopposed in their case).

Providing the Baddab War is written, in part, to emphasis the importance of the separation of Space Marine Legions, it'd place the Ultramarines under the same scrutiny as the Astral Claws were under. Although if Calgar died, the next would-be chapter master could be a madman and cause a system-wide rebellion, boasting some of the most powerful Imperial forces there is; sadly, no such candidates exists amongst the chapter's captains.

Let's be clear. I was exaggerating. 9 PDF forces, no matter how well trained, wil never, ever, in a million years, rival the might of a Space Marine Legion. A Legion is the most powerful fighting force in human history. Sure, maybe not largest, 100, 000 isn't big. But when you consider that each Space Marine is worth 10 regular humans, that increases to the equivalent of 1 million. And under the command of Primarchs that number increases 10 fold. Not to mention all their armoured support and personal wargear far outstrips anything a regular human, even Ultramar SDF, will ever get. I was exaggerating about it being Badab version 2, as obvious its a case of 1 chapter with tens of thousands of human auxiliary as opposed to 1 chapter with 3 allied chapters and 10s of millions of humans.