The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


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Added link for reference of the WD rule.

 Zewrath wrote:
The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


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Added link for reference of the WD rule.

Can you a model equipped with a Thunderhammer and power sword, while using the power sword, apply concussive to its hits?

I don't believe you gain any benefit from a weapon you aren't attacking with in terms of special rules.

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So, if you attack with Melee Weapon #2, you can't use the "Kiss of Death" ability as that would be mixing and matching. For all practical purposes, the Harlequin's Kiss might as well be a CCW when attacking with a different Melee Weapon.

That's not his question.

His question is: "If I have a model that has 3 attacks, can I choose to make 1 attack with the 'Harlequins kiss' and the other two attacks with the power weapon.

I don't think you can because IIRC Horus has a special rule that allows him to do exactly this.

Its already been covered by the 'More Than One Weapon' rule that Kriswall referenced.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


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Added link for reference of the WD rule.

Can you a model equipped with a Thunderhammer and power sword, while using the power sword, apply concussive to its hits?

I suggest you reread my post, because that's not my question.

The rule states that as long as the model have the weapon equiped, one of its CC attacks will be the Kiss of Death Attack. It doesn't state that you need to use the weapon, just equipped.

Furthermore, the concussive USR explicitly states that the model needs to suffer an unsaved wound from a weapon that has this USR, in order to apply its effect and weapon with shred also explicitly states that they require you to attack with the weapon that has the shred USR, in order to benefit from the USR. Again, this is not the case with the Harlequin's Kiss.
Could you explain your counter arguement to why I'm not allowed to have a unit, with 4 attacks on charge, make 3 attacks with with his power sword and 1 seperate with the Kiss of Death Attack? Bear in mind that I'm actually not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, I'm making a seperate attack granted by the Kiss of Death.

The 'More Than One Weapon' rule prevents it, and nothing in the rules you've provided overrides that restriction.

Ghaz, the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss states that the model only has to be equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss and that if it is equipped then one of it's attacks gets the special rule "Kiss of Death" and is rolled separately from the other attacks.

"Kiss of Death: when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks, one of it's attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack (roll this attack separately). A Kiss of Death attack is always resolved at S6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled to wound with a Kiss of Death attack, the attack has the instant death special rule."

Implying that you are given specific permission to make one attack with this special rule and the rest of your attacks with whatever weapon you have equipped.

@OP: the rules state that you make your close combat attacks and only one of them uses the Kiss of Death rule. I'd say that you can make the rest of your attacks with the Harlequin's Caress the way the rules are written.

 NightHowler wrote:
Ghaz, the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss states that the model only has to be equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss and that if it is equipped then one of it's attacks gets the special rule "Kiss of Death" and is rolled separately from the other attacks.

"Kiss of Death: when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks, one of it's attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack (roll this attack separately). A Kiss of Death attack is always resolved at S6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled to wound with a Kiss of Death attack, the attack has the instant death special rule."

Implying that you are given specific permission to make one attack with this special rule and the rest of your attacks with whatever weapon you have equipped.

@OP: the rules state that you make your close combat attacks and only one of them uses the Kiss of Death rule. I'd say that you can make the rest of your attacks with the Harlequin's Caress the way the rules are written.

The issue is that unless you are attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use any of its abilities. Kiss of Death is one of its abilities. The More Than One Weapon rule cited above prevents mix and matching of abilities. It prevents, for example, using the profile of Weapon #2 and the special rules associated with the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how the Kiss of Death is worded. Unless you're attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, the Kiss of Death ability is ignored.

I understand what you're saying. I was under the impression that since it states, "when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks..." instead of saying "when a model attacks with a Harlequin's Kiss..." the implication was that you attack with another weapon and as long as the Kiss is equipped you get one special attack with it.

@OP: so it looks like you have to choose one weapon or the other.

 Kriswall wrote:

The issue is that unless you are attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use any of its abilities. Kiss of Death is one of its abilities. The More Than One Weapon rule cited above prevents mix and matching of abilities. It prevents, for example, using the profile of Weapon #2 and the special rules associated with the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how the Kiss of Death is worded. Unless you're attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, the Kiss of Death ability is ignored.

Hmm.. I must confess, I can't find a way to challenge your arguement.

It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

GW is notoriously lax with their wording. When it comes to the word 'equipped', its probably best to use the video game definition of the word meaning the weapon currently in use.

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

IIRC, Mandiblasters are stated to grant an autohit attack at init 10 step.


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 Ghaz wrote:
GW is notoriously lax with their wording. When it comes to the word 'equipped', its probably best to use the video game definition of the word meaning the weapon currently in use.

I concur. What annoys me the most is how casual they are with units vs models, and keep forgetting how big a difference there is between the two.

Oh well, thanks for the help. I'm off to bed.

Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

I suggest you look at the link in OP. That's the official WD rules.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

You mean the ones that came out are are linked in OP's post?

Yeh for sure, this may be answered in the White dwarf or in the supplement to come. Let's relax for now but it is a good question as I read it in the same way ( make 5 attacks with the H caress and 1 with a kiss ) mwah xxx

Does a khorne lord equipped with an Axe of Blind Fury only suffer the -1 ballistic skill when he is making melee attacks with the axe?

 Wilson wrote:
Yeh for sure, this may be answered in the White dwarf or in the supplement to come. Let's relax for now but it is a good question as I read it in the same way ( make 5 attacks with the H caress and 1 with a kiss ) mwah xxx

Actually you'd make all 6 attacks with the Harlequin' Kiss and only one of those attacks (chosen before you roll) would be a 'Kiss of Death' attack.

WangoFett wrote:
Does a khorne lord equipped with an Axe of Blind Fury only suffer the -1 ballistic skill when he is making melee attacks with the axe?

Yes : P

Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Semi-related question; For Caress of Death "Each to hit roll of a 6 made by a weapon with this special rule causes a single automatic wound".

Does this mean that hit is discarded and causes an automatic wound, or does it cause an automatic wound in addition to the "to wound" roll that comes afterwards?

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

All weapons are Wargear, as they fall under the "WARGEAR:" header on the datasheet.

Rules like Concussive are worded in a specific way, such as "A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule." In these cases, the More Than One Weapon rule covers it neatly; you are either using the weapon with that special rule or you aren't. Other special rules on weapons, like the aforementioned Blinded rule on the Axe of Blind Fury, make no reference to "an attack with" that weapon and simply confer an effect on the model with the wargear in question, as with any other wargear with a special rule. Considering the specific wording on the Kiss ("one of its attacks WILL be a Kiss of Death Attack", emphasis mine), it actually appears that the Kiss of Death attack is not even optional; the Kiss eats one of your attacks even if, for whatever reason, you don't want it to.

This, of course, doesn't mean that RAI or a later FAQ/exposition will contradict the RAW, but at that point, unless the wording on Kiss of Death is changed, I'd argue that the Kiss is mandatory and the Caress is nothing more than an additional melee weapon.

Well this could lead to fun stuff. Wonder why this issue never came up before. Maybe because this time it involves Eldar players.

If I have a Daemon with Mutating Warpblade, technically every character/monster he kills turns into spawn?
I dont need to use the warpblade to do it, or even be in close combat?

I cam combo the Rampage from Blade of Blood with another weapon?

A Hellbrute can use the power flail's ability and hit with a power first?

You can combo the Daemon Weapon's additional attacks with another weapon? Abaddon got much better.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Then why does the Harlequin's Kiss have a weapon profile in addition to the profile for its 'Kiss of Death' attack if its only used to provide a 'Kiss of Death' attack? You're clearly trying to split the attacks between two weapons.

Chad Warden wrote:
Well this could lead to fun stuff. Wonder why this issue never came up before. Maybe because this time it involves Eldar players.

If I have a Daemon with Mutating Warpblade, technically every character/monster he kills turns into spawn?
I dont need to use the warpblade to do it, or even be in close combat?

I cam combo the Rampage from Blade of Blood with another weapon?

A Hellbrute can use the power flail's ability and hit with a power first?

You can combo the Daemon Weapon's additional attacks with another weapon? Abaddon got much better.

The wording on Mutating Warpblade doesn't specify needing to make an attack with it to trigger that effect. The Bloodlust ability specifically states that the bearer gains Rampage (exact same sort of wording as the -1BS on the Axe of Blind Fury, so if one is true, both must be). I don't have the rules for the Hellbrute handy. The rules for Daemon Weapon, though, quite clearly state that you only roll when you are fighting with that weapon if you have multiple weapons, so sorry, Abaddon's no better.

Seems more of a triggered ability than an inbuilt rule to the weapons profile.

Funnily enough, by that wording you also cannot chose not to use the ability either.

For those talking about the more than one weapon rule: by your judgement, a model with the kiss of death will never be able to opt to use a different weapon.

Why?
If it works as you have said then they must use the kiss of death.
Simply because the rule says one attack will perform it.
So even if you have a power weapon, the second you attack the rule triggers, and by your ideas, means the weapon must be used.

I see it as more of an extra ability than something specific for its attacks


Hope this makes sense anyway

 Ghaz wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Then why does the Harlequin's Kiss have a weapon profile in addition to the profile for its 'Kiss of Death' attack if its only used to provide a 'Kiss of Death' attack? You're clearly trying to split the attacks between two weapons.

I suspect it has a profile because you can exchange the close combat weapon on a troupe player or master with it, and it needs rules to count as a close combat weapon so that they still count as being armed with two weapons (including pistol) if you do so. If it was just an upgrade and not a replacement for the CCW, with no weapon profile, then you could ADDITIONALLY replace the CCW with a Caress and have a squad of mini-Solitaires running around for 28 points each, which would make me physically ill.

So then it is a weapon. So why are you trying to use two weapons at one time when the rules don't allow you to do so?

 Ghaz wrote:
So then it is a weapon. So why are you trying to use two weapons at one time when the rules don't allow you to do so?

If its profile were S6 AP2, I would absolutely agree with you. Similarly, I'd agree if the wording on Kiss of Death made any mention of only triggering when you choose to fight with, attack, hit, or inflict a wound "with a weapon with this rule" or "with this weapon." Daemon Weapon clearly makes that distinction, as do USRs like Concussive and Shred. Instead, it simply tells you that one of your attacks "will be a Kiss of Death", with no option to do otherwise. If this rule did not apply because of the Multiple Weapons rule, then applying the -1BS from Axe of Blind Fury when shooting a weapon would be against the rules, as you are trying to apply the special rule from one weapon (the Axe) to another (the gun).

Ultimately, I would be shocked if this didn't get FAQed (I know, I know, it's GW), but RAW, the rule seems clear.

He's only using one weapon. But one of the attacks with that weapon is required to be a "kiss of death" attack as per the special rules of his wargear, regardless of whether it is a weapon or not.

Consider the following.

Prince Yriel wields the spear of Twilight. The Spear of Twilight has a special rule called "Cursed" that says "When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6." Does this mean that He never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because that rule would never come into play while he is attacking with the spear? What if he attacks with plasma grenades against a monstrous creature or walker?

You do not need to be attacking with a weapon in order to be affected by a special rule that is not specifically linked to that weapon's attacks.

Since kiss of death says "close combat attacks" as opposed to "attacks with this weapon", its effect still applies when other weapons are used.

Bojazz wrote:
You do not need to be attacking with a weapon in order to be affected by a special rule that is not specifically linked to that weapon's attacks.

From 'More Than One Weapon':

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

'Kiss of Death' is an ability of the Harlequin's Kiss and not the Harlequin himself. Therefore it is specifically linked to that weapon's attacks and cannot be mixed with other weapons. In order to use the 'Kiss of Death' rule you must be using the Harlequin's Kiss.

So then how would you play Yriel? He can just ignore the "cursed" special rule entirely?

Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

^Ninja'd^
You are incorrect. The Spear of Twilight is a remnant of glory weapon with the following profile. "Range -, S User, AP 3, Type Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane"

Cursed is most definitely a special rule of the weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

I'm afraid not. It's listed next to "Melee" in the Type header for the Spear. Similarly, Spiritlink for Eldrad is on his staff, despite having nothing to do with his melee and, by that logic, conflicting with any witchfire psychic powers (which also have profiles). Weapons are also Wargear, and Wargear rules apply to the model unless stated otherwise. Kiss of Death is not an ability of that weapon because the rule does not say it is an ability of that weapon, nor does it mention use of that item at all; it is an ability granted by that wargear to a model that has it.

How does Unholy Speed, Deathlust, Dark Resurrection, and familiar from the Inquisition's Daemonblade wargear apply to this? It specifically says "wielder" opposed to something like "strike with". Does a player lose all of those benefits if they're not swinging with a Daemonblade?

 Nyghoma wrote:
How does Unholy Speed, Deathlust, Dark Resurrection, and familiar from the Inquisition's Daemonblade wargear apply to this? It specifically says "wielder" opposed to something like "strike with". Does a player lose all of those benefits if they're not swinging with a Daemonblade?

Logically, anything that doesn't apply to the weapon or its attacks should work fine (although I don't have the Inquisition supplement, so don't take my word for it as gospel). It seems FAQs based on the word "wielder" from earlier editions have born that out, judging from a quick Google search, but that is not necessarily clear, and they seem to use "bearer" or "equipped with" more often these days, since the word "wielder" has an implication of "currently in use" in the English language that the other two don't. No one ever said GW was good at rules language, sadly.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

My bad. I even look twice and missed it. And since its his only weapon (other than plasma grenades) then yes it would apply to all of his close combat attacks (except for those made with the plasma grenades).

But his own close combat attacks would never cause him to roll armour saves, let alone saving throws of 6. The point we're making here is that not all special rules on weapons apply to that weapons close combat attacks, and instead apply in other various ways (such as Eldrad's spiritlink rule). Because of this it can be logically interpreted that the "more than one weapons" rule is for special rules that apply to that weapon's attacks rather than to the model in general. Otherwise there would be special rules in the game that would never apply.

And you're comparing apples to oranges. What other weapon does Yriel have? None. So you're not mixing the abilities of multiple weapons, are you? No. With the Harlequin's Kiss you are trying to mix its ability with other weapons.

Yriel has plasma grenades, which can be used in combat against vehicles and monstrous creatures. What happens if he does so?

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're comparing apples to oranges. What other weapon does Yriel have? None. So you're not mixing the abilities of multiple weapons, are you? No. With the Harlequin's Kiss you are trying to mix its ability with other weapons.

Technically, he could elect to use his grenades. That is largely immaterial, though; no one is seriously suggesting the "Cursed" rule ever fails to apply, unless something removes his spear from his profile. The same for Eldrad's Spiritlink on a witchfire or anything else. And even the Multiple Weapons rule specifically states that they "must choose which one to attack with." Except for the purposes of attacking with the chosen weapon, all wargear rules continue to apply. Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

Ultimately, I suspect this is one of those "agree to disagree and wait for the FAQ" situations. For all we know, the rest of the article we haven't seen covers this exact situation. I'm comfortable putting it to bed for now.

Yriel is also not the only example, here. Castellan Crowe has "the Blade of Antwyr" which is treated as a close combat weapon with a special rule granting all models in his unit furious charge, and re-rolls for to hit rolls. If Castellan elects to attack with his krak grenades (which is not uncommon if he is in combat against a vehicle), does that mean his entire squad loses furious charge and re-rolls to hit?

Drazosh wrote:
Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

And where is that rule listed? In the weapon's profile. It comes from the Harlequin's Kiss. Also note, grenades are not weapons, they're grenades.

Grenades are listed under the "Weapons" section of the rulebook.
Additionally:
Page 180 under vehicles, gun emplacements, and monstrous creatures. In bold: "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee Weapon".

 Ghaz wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

And where is that rule listed? In the weapon's profile. It comes from the Harlequin's Kiss. Also note, grenades are not weapons, they're grenades.

That's an assumption based on wording not explicitly stated anywhere, although based on logic. We know the attack comes from the Kiss, because that's the only thing that makes sense. Mechanically, it simply converts one of his close combat attacks to resolve at S6 AP2. No mention of weapons, nor attacking with it. Again, we're not gonna agree on this one, I suspect.

Drazosh wrote:
That's an assumption based on wording not explicitly stated anywhere, although based on logic. We know the attack comes from the Kiss, because that's the only thing that makes sense. Mechanically, it simply converts one of his close combat attacks to resolve at S6 AP2. No mention of weapons, nor attacking with it.

Do you have the 'Kiss of Death' rule if you don't have a Harlequin's Kiss? There's no need to mention the weapon when its a rule of the weapon we're talking about.

Drazosh wrote:
Again, we're not gonna agree on this one, I suspect.

Well, it looks like we can agree on one thing then

When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Bojazz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Per round of combat.

And what rules support do you have for that decision? I can't tell my fellow players "because Kriswall decided that was the time frame".

What I'm saying is that some weapons have special rules that are not connected to the close combat attacks of that weapon (such as Eldrad's spiritlink). When a weapon has an ability that affects that weapons close combat attacks, it is always explicitly worded as such. "Attacks made with this weapon", "Rolls to hit with this weapon", etc. They can be found across all codexes and throughout the rulebook. Caress of death even has this wording. Kiss of death does not, which indicates to me that it is an ability which functions differently to those of other weapon abilities. It states that one close combat attack must be a kiss of death attack. Rather than taking that to mean "This model may only ever attack with the kiss of death" or "One of the attacks made with this weapon must be a kiss of death attack", I take that to mean exactly what it says. "One of this model's close combat attacks is a kiss of death attack". That is how I interpret it, and that is my reasoning for doing so. I'll have to follow Drazosh's example and agree to disagree now, and bleakly hope for an FAQ.

Sounds similar to how the Nemesis Greatsword used to function

The prior codex Greatsword gifted rerolls of wounds/hits/pens simply by the model having it, as most people attacked with the doomfist to be Str 10 AP 2

The FAQ clearly granted the bonus from equiping the sword to attacking with the Doomfist for rerollable Str 10 ap2 hits, even though the Doomfist and the Greatsword were two separate weapons with two separate profiles

So its not unheard of a weapon granting an extra ability just by simply equipping it.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Sounds similar to how the Nemesis Greatsword used to function

The prior codex Greatsword gifted rerolls of wounds/hits/pens simply by the model having it, as most people attacked with the doomfist to be Str 10 AP 2

The FAQ clearly granted the bonus from equiping the sword to attacking with the Doomfist for rerollable Str 10 ap2 hits, even though the Doomfist and the Greatsword were two separate weapons with two separate profiles

So its not unheard of a weapon granting an extra ability just by simply equipping it.

That's interesting, but i must ask. Was the rule for the re-rolls included in the Greatsword profile or was just a special rule? Like, did rule appear were it said "type: melee, force, re-roll special rule"?

 Kriswall wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Per round of combat.

Woah, now. The rule in question, as quoted earlier:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

There's no mention of it lasting the round of combat, the phase, or anything beyond the attacks that model makes. Earlier versions of the rule did, but earlier versions of the rule from previous editions were far better worded. At best, I could say it lasts for the initiative step in which the model attacks, but even that is stretching the vocabulary.

I would interpret "comes to strike blows" as "engages in combat with an enemy unit"... in the same sense that I would interpret "when John comes to audit our taxes" as the entire period of time when John is in my house for the purposes of tax auditing, regardless of whether he's auditing or taking a bathroom break. In other words, the current assault phase. As we have no game definition for "comes to strike blows", this is going to be an item open to interpretation. If I've missed a game definition for "comes to strike blows", please cite the page number and rules reference. I've been known to make mistakes before.

My argument is mainly that the active part of that phrase is comes and not strike blows. A model engaged in a combat has come to that combat to strike blows. If the rules simply said "when the model strikes blows", I would interpret it as during the To Hit roll section only. Unfortunately, this is not what it says.

I know this is going to devolve into a he said/she said rules as intended versus rules as written thing, but this is my interpretation of the situation.

To the OP: The rules definitely don't support attacking with a different weapon but still gaining the Kiss of Death benefit of the Harlequin's Kiss. This would be mixing and matching the abilities of several (two) different Melee weapons. The rules MAY support gaining the benefit of abilities from several different Melee weapons, but ONLY when the model in question hasn't 'come to strike blows'. You'll have to decide what 'comes to strike blows' means as it's not defined in the rules and is ambiguous at best.

That's one of those arguments where the only correct answer is "GW is bad at rules writing." The rule is so badly written, it barely looks like more than flavor text. I won't go into it beyond that.

As for the actual topic, I don't think you'll find a consensus here. As always with rules disputes, remember to discuss the issue with your opponent before you begin and, if all else fails, roll off on it.

I think that a very relevant set of rules here, is this:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Notice the emphasis. Combine with the rules Kriswall pointed at:

 Kriswall wrote:

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons. In knowledge of the "Greatsword situation" (Which is now a new Codex and therefore irrelevant - unless the new codex has the same issue?)

That's just about the summary of the debate. Trouble is, what are a weapon's 'abilities'? Where is the term defined? If it said 'special rules', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, more on topic, does the Kiss of Death apply in the "a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using" because it is part of its profile, or is it a special rule conferred to the model by its wargear since the rule does not say anything about its existing attacks except as timing.

Kriswall (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you; all respect intended) appears to believe that all elements of the weapon's profile are effectively ignored, special rules and all, when a another weapon is in use. This is a rational interpretation, although it leads to certain rules verbage that is unnecessary (Like Daemon Weapon explicitly stating that you only roll when fighting with that weapon, or the assorted "this weapon" references on all other weapon-specific special rules) or negated (Blinded from the Axe of Blind Fury never lowers your BS, because you are never, ever using it in shooting). Even still, it's rational.

My interpretation is a weapon's 'abilities' are its traits and special rules which, by the wording of its rules, are explicitly directed at the weapon and/or its attacks. ("Attacks with this weapon," "hits with this weapon," etc. The special rule on the Harlequin's Caress uses some of this terminology) Also rational, but I freely admit it's inflexible and not particularly intuitive at all times.

Drazosh wrote:
That's just about the summary of the debate. Trouble is, what are a weapon's 'abilities'? Where is the term defined? If it said 'special rules', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, more on topic, does the Kiss of Death apply in the "a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using" because it is part of its profile, or is it a special rule conferred to the model by its wargear since the rule does not say anything about its existing attacks except as timing.

Kriswall (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you; all respect intended) appears to believe that all elements of the weapon's profile are effectively ignored, special rules and all, when a another weapon is in use. This is a rational interpretation, although it leads to certain rules verbage that is unnecessary (Like Daemon Weapon explicitly stating that you only roll when fighting with that weapon, or the assorted "this weapon" references on all other weapon-specific special rules) or negated (Blinded from the Axe of Blind Fury never lowers your BS, because you are never, ever using it in shooting). Even still, it's rational.

My interpretation is a weapon's 'abilities' are its traits and special rules which, by the wording of its rules, are explicitly directed at the weapon and/or its attacks. ("Attacks with this weapon," "hits with this weapon," etc. The special rule on the Harlequin's Caress uses some of this terminology) Also rational, but I freely admit it's inflexible and not particularly intuitive at all times.

My post just before yours was about "special rules".
Not "abilities".

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

 Kriswall wrote:

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

My emphasis. That was the "abilities" to which I referred.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

Bojazz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

Debate and rules continuity aside, BRB under Basic Versus Advanced:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

So Yriel's always Cursed because his listing says he is. The core rulebook can't ever be used to strip a model's rules off, even temporarily.

Drazosh wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

Debate and rules continuity aside, BRB under Basic Versus Advanced:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

So Yriel's always Cursed because his listing says he is. The core rulebook can't ever be used to strip a model's rules off, even temporarily.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

 BlackTalos wrote:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

Because you can only use weapons during combat.

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

I'd argue that Yriel never suffers from Cursed unless he suffers a wound while swinging his weapon. There's no rule saying you are using your weapon during your opponents initiative phases, nor during the movement, etc. phases.

I don't believe anyone seriously suggests Yriel is ever not Cursed... the rule is specific.

Cursed: When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6.

No "when using this weapon," or "after attacking with this weapon," just "engaged in combat," to make sure he'd even have to re-roll before his initiative. Basic Versus Advanced kicks in, and it overrides any core rule saying he is ever NOT Cursed. Yriel's been around for a few years now, so none of this is new...

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

Because you can only use weapons during combat.

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

I'd argue that Yriel never suffers from Cursed unless he suffers a wound while swinging his weapon. There's no rule saying you are using your weapon during your opponents initiative phases, nor during the movement, etc. phases.

Then the RaW is clear, and HYWPI is needed.

Drazosh wrote:
I don't believe anyone seriously suggests Yriel is ever not Cursed... the rule is specific.

Cursed: When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6.

No "when using this weapon," or "after attacking with this weapon," just "engaged in combat," to make sure he'd even have to re-roll before his initiative. Basic Versus Advanced kicks in, and it overrides any core rule saying he is ever NOT Cursed. Yriel's been around for a few years now, so none of this is new...

No, it's not new. It's always been a fact that you don't use the special rules of the weapon when you're not using the weapon.
Is Yriel using his Spear when it's not his initiative?

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

There's the whole text of the rule. If codex says X =True, the rulebook explicitly does not give itself permission to contradict; even if it says "Yriel's a cool guy and should die less, so he can keep his 6's on tuesdays," he is still Cursed and re-rolls 6's when engaged in combat because the core rules explicitly cannot say differently.

That said, everyone can play as they like! I won't stop you.

Except you're missing the specific exception to 'More Than One Weapon' in the 'Kiss of Death' rule.

Drazosh wrote:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

There's the whole text of the rule. If codex says X =True, the rulebook explicitly does not give itself permission to contradict; even if it says "Yriel's a cool guy and should die less, so he can keep his 6's on tuesdays," he is still Cursed and re-rolls 6's when engaged in combat because the core rules explicitly cannot say differently.

That said, everyone can play as they like! I won't stop you.

So what you're saying is that you don't understand the argument at all. Cool.

Please show me the "Cursed" rule in Yriel's Army List Entry.
Since you can't, I'll point out that it's on his Spear. Do you agree?
Now - the rule you quoted says that if there is a conflict then the more advanced rule takes precedence.

There's no conflict between Cursed and when weapons are used, and how those rules interact. None. If you disagree, explain the conflict.

No need to get heated. I apologize if I provoked.

I wasn't trying to apply Basic vs Advanced to the Harlequin's Kiss. I'm quite off-topic, and for that, I apologize as well.

The conflict I see is that the Advanced Rule: Cursed applies because the wargear that assigns it is listed in his army list entry. Basic vs. Advanced states that special weapons apply advanced rules to the model. More Than One Weapon specifically states he must choose which "weapon to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons." He can select a different weapon to attack with, without applying any of the spear's abilities to those attacks (which I totally agree with!), but he is still Cursed when not attacking because it is in his wargear -and, thus, army list entry - that he is. I don't see another way to interpret it without simply ignoring any rule on a weapon that does not specifically apply to attacking with it, like Cursed, Spiritlink, or Blinded. With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

Would you care to mention where the BRB states when a weapon is used and when it isn't?
If I made a shooting attack that caused no wounds, but caused the model to suffer from instant death, with no saves of any kind allowed then, by your logic, the wargear Shield Eternal that grants EW doesn't grant the CM immunity against EW, because he's not "using" his shield to save against a wound, since it's just an attack that causes ID automatically, not any wounds?

So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

 Zewrath wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

Would you care to mention where the BRB states when a weapon is used and when it isn't?
If I made a shooting attack that caused no wounds, but caused the model to suffer from instant death, with no saves of any kind allowed then, by your logic, the wargear Shield Eternal that grants EW doesn't grant the CM immunity against EW, because he's not "using" his shield to save against a wound, since it's just an attack that causes ID automatically, not any wounds?

Incorrect. It's not a melee weapon.

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drazosh wrote:
So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

Yes. That's how the rules are written.

It's obviously not intended, however, and I'd never play that way. I'd allow the new Kiss to work regardless of what weapon is being used.

Drazosh wrote:
So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

Apparently, this is what it has come to. Rules that are clearly, obviously intended to function outside of close combat now can never apply. Seems legit.

The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

That's quite the interpretation. I'm not entirely sure I would play against anyone who actually took that interpretation seriously and played that way. I can see where you would read it that way, though. I could have read the books cover to cover for the rest of my life, however, and never once read it that way. I guess my brain instinctively makes the "Rule cannot apply = conflict!" jump quite independently.

That said, going by the interpretation of the rules you and I would ACTUALLY go with, the Kiss of Death rule seems like it applies regardless of your wish, so long as you're making close combat attacks. Correct?

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

And is 40k a video game? Do the rules in the White Dwarf apply to a video game?

rigeld2 wrote:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.

That's not what it says. It says you can't mix and match the abilities. That does not translate into preventing effects like Cursed from occurring.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

And is 40k a video game? Do the rules in the White Dwarf apply to a video game?

That doesn't mean that the writers can't have intended for that to be the meaning they meant. Without a glossary of terms that is just as valid a definition of 'equipped' as any other.

The way I read it, a melee weapon outside of combat is still wargear. Wargear is advanced rules. So long as you don't enter a situation where you must select one to apply, it remains wargear and its advanced rules (outside of those affecting your attacks with that weapon, obviously, since there are none to modify).

As for video games and equipping... MMO Hunters/Archers/Rangers have decades of melee "stat sticks" that argue with that.

 Zewrath wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.

That's not what it says. It says you can't mix and match the abilities. That does not translate into preventing effects like Cursed from occurring.

It says that you choose which Melee weapon to attack with when it comes to strike blows (at your initiative). And that the abilities of melee weapons can only be used when that melee weapon is striking blows (again, at initiative).

Therefore Cursed, a melee weapon ability, can only apply when the melee weapon it's attached to is striking blows.

The ONLY time when you can't benefit from the abilities of multiple Melee Weapons is when the model "comes to strike blows". What does this mean? It's not defined.

The most reasonable interpretation seems to be a round of combat. This is obviously HIWPI as the RaW has no definition. This creates an unknowable situation... i.e. a potentially broken rule requiring an FAQ or Errata.

During the Movement Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Shooting Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Psychic Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. The only time there is a restriction against using abilities from more than one weapon is when the model "comes to strike blows".

If we use this to mean a round of combat, things seem to work out. If Yriel is using his Spear, he gets the re-roll since he has the Spear "in hand" when his opponent wounds him. If he attacks instead with a grenade, he does not have the Spear "in hand" when his opponent wounds him and therefore doesn't benefit from the Spear's ability to allow him to re-roll the save (or whatever it does... scrolling on a phone is a pain).

If we use "comes to strike blows" to mean only during the actual To Hit portion of a combat, then all of a sudden you can benefit from multiple weapons abilities when your opponent is swinging back at you.

TL : DR ;

You definitely can't use the Kiss of Death ability when attacking with something other than the Harlequin's Kiss because even the loosest interpretation of "comes to strike blows" would have to include the To Hit portion. You might be able to use multiple abilities during other portions of the combat, depending on how you interpret "comes to strike blows".

Wait for an FAQ (good luck) or work it out with your friends.

HIWPI - "comes to strike blows" = 1 round of combat

Aaand we've stagnated.

TL;DR for whole thread:

Rules are vague and poorly written, apply The Most Important Rule and wait for a FAQ otherwise.

 Kriswall wrote:
During the Movement Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Shooting Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Psychic Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. The only time there is a restriction against using abilities from more than one weapon is when the model "comes to strike blows".

Incorrect. As I explained, the rule says abilities of melee weapons can only be used when that melee weapon is striking blows. Please, cite rules support for your stance.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

Don't know what games you play, but in the RPGs and strategy games I know you get the bonuses and passive abilities from your weapons or armour as long as they're equipped, i.e. not in your inventory, in the weapon/armor slot of your character. If I'm playing World of Warcraft, and I equip my +1 strength axe, it's not only giving me that bonus when I've got it out and swinging. It's the same with D&D, as a non-video game example.

The point is moot, anyways - like you established already, without a clear definition of "equipped" there's no telling what GW means by it exactly. Could just as easily mean what you say, that it's actively in use.

Drazosh wrote:
Aaand we've stagnated.

TL;DR for whole thread:

Rules are vague and poorly written, apply The Most Important Rule and wait for a FAQ otherwise.

At this point, waiting for an FAQ is pretty much just an exercise in futility, but otherwise, yes, what he said.