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 Ghaz wrote:
So then it is a weapon. So why are you trying to use two weapons at one time when the rules don't allow you to do so?

If its profile were S6 AP2, I would absolutely agree with you. Similarly, I'd agree if the wording on Kiss of Death made any mention of only triggering when you choose to fight with, attack, hit, or inflict a wound "with a weapon with this rule" or "with this weapon." Daemon Weapon clearly makes that distinction, as do USRs like Concussive and Shred. Instead, it simply tells you that one of your attacks "will be a Kiss of Death", with no option to do otherwise. If this rule did not apply because of the Multiple Weapons rule, then applying the -1BS from Axe of Blind Fury when shooting a weapon would be against the rules, as you are trying to apply the special rule from one weapon (the Axe) to another (the gun).

Ultimately, I would be shocked if this didn't get FAQed (I know, I know, it's GW), but RAW, the rule seems clear.

He's only using one weapon. But one of the attacks with that weapon is required to be a "kiss of death" attack as per the special rules of his wargear, regardless of whether it is a weapon or not.

Consider the following.

Prince Yriel wields the spear of Twilight. The Spear of Twilight has a special rule called "Cursed" that says "When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6." Does this mean that He never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because that rule would never come into play while he is attacking with the spear? What if he attacks with plasma grenades against a monstrous creature or walker?

You do not need to be attacking with a weapon in order to be affected by a special rule that is not specifically linked to that weapon's attacks.

Since kiss of death says "close combat attacks" as opposed to "attacks with this weapon", its effect still applies when other weapons are used.

Bojazz wrote:
You do not need to be attacking with a weapon in order to be affected by a special rule that is not specifically linked to that weapon's attacks.

From 'More Than One Weapon':

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

'Kiss of Death' is an ability of the Harlequin's Kiss and not the Harlequin himself. Therefore it is specifically linked to that weapon's attacks and cannot be mixed with other weapons. In order to use the 'Kiss of Death' rule you must be using the Harlequin's Kiss.

So then how would you play Yriel? He can just ignore the "cursed" special rule entirely?

Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

^Ninja'd^
You are incorrect. The Spear of Twilight is a remnant of glory weapon with the following profile. "Range -, S User, AP 3, Type Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane"

Cursed is most definitely a special rule of the weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

I'm afraid not. It's listed next to "Melee" in the Type header for the Spear. Similarly, Spiritlink for Eldrad is on his staff, despite having nothing to do with his melee and, by that logic, conflicting with any witchfire psychic powers (which also have profiles). Weapons are also Wargear, and Wargear rules apply to the model unless stated otherwise. Kiss of Death is not an ability of that weapon because the rule does not say it is an ability of that weapon, nor does it mention use of that item at all; it is an ability granted by that wargear to a model that has it.

How does Unholy Speed, Deathlust, Dark Resurrection, and familiar from the Inquisition's Daemonblade wargear apply to this? It specifically says "wielder" opposed to something like "strike with". Does a player lose all of those benefits if they're not swinging with a Daemonblade?

 Nyghoma wrote:
How does Unholy Speed, Deathlust, Dark Resurrection, and familiar from the Inquisition's Daemonblade wargear apply to this? It specifically says "wielder" opposed to something like "strike with". Does a player lose all of those benefits if they're not swinging with a Daemonblade?

Logically, anything that doesn't apply to the weapon or its attacks should work fine (although I don't have the Inquisition supplement, so don't take my word for it as gospel). It seems FAQs based on the word "wielder" from earlier editions have born that out, judging from a quick Google search, but that is not necessarily clear, and they seem to use "bearer" or "equipped with" more often these days, since the word "wielder" has an implication of "currently in use" in the English language that the other two don't. No one ever said GW was good at rules language, sadly.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

My bad. I even look twice and missed it. And since its his only weapon (other than plasma grenades) then yes it would apply to all of his close combat attacks (except for those made with the plasma grenades).

But his own close combat attacks would never cause him to roll armour saves, let alone saving throws of 6. The point we're making here is that not all special rules on weapons apply to that weapons close combat attacks, and instead apply in other various ways (such as Eldrad's spiritlink rule). Because of this it can be logically interpreted that the "more than one weapons" rule is for special rules that apply to that weapon's attacks rather than to the model in general. Otherwise there would be special rules in the game that would never apply.

And you're comparing apples to oranges. What other weapon does Yriel have? None. So you're not mixing the abilities of multiple weapons, are you? No. With the Harlequin's Kiss you are trying to mix its ability with other weapons.

Yriel has plasma grenades, which can be used in combat against vehicles and monstrous creatures. What happens if he does so?

 Ghaz wrote:
And you're comparing apples to oranges. What other weapon does Yriel have? None. So you're not mixing the abilities of multiple weapons, are you? No. With the Harlequin's Kiss you are trying to mix its ability with other weapons.

Technically, he could elect to use his grenades. That is largely immaterial, though; no one is seriously suggesting the "Cursed" rule ever fails to apply, unless something removes his spear from his profile. The same for Eldrad's Spiritlink on a witchfire or anything else. And even the Multiple Weapons rule specifically states that they "must choose which one to attack with." Except for the purposes of attacking with the chosen weapon, all wargear rules continue to apply. Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

Ultimately, I suspect this is one of those "agree to disagree and wait for the FAQ" situations. For all we know, the rest of the article we haven't seen covers this exact situation. I'm comfortable putting it to bed for now.

Yriel is also not the only example, here. Castellan Crowe has "the Blade of Antwyr" which is treated as a close combat weapon with a special rule granting all models in his unit furious charge, and re-rolls for to hit rolls. If Castellan elects to attack with his krak grenades (which is not uncommon if he is in combat against a vehicle), does that mean his entire squad loses furious charge and re-rolls to hit?

Drazosh wrote:
Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

And where is that rule listed? In the weapon's profile. It comes from the Harlequin's Kiss. Also note, grenades are not weapons, they're grenades.

Grenades are listed under the "Weapons" section of the rulebook.
Additionally:
Page 180 under vehicles, gun emplacements, and monstrous creatures. In bold: "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee Weapon".

 Ghaz wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
Counter-intuitively, the Kiss of Death Attack does not state it comes from the Kiss weapon at all.

And where is that rule listed? In the weapon's profile. It comes from the Harlequin's Kiss. Also note, grenades are not weapons, they're grenades.

That's an assumption based on wording not explicitly stated anywhere, although based on logic. We know the attack comes from the Kiss, because that's the only thing that makes sense. Mechanically, it simply converts one of his close combat attacks to resolve at S6 AP2. No mention of weapons, nor attacking with it. Again, we're not gonna agree on this one, I suspect.

Drazosh wrote:
That's an assumption based on wording not explicitly stated anywhere, although based on logic. We know the attack comes from the Kiss, because that's the only thing that makes sense. Mechanically, it simply converts one of his close combat attacks to resolve at S6 AP2. No mention of weapons, nor attacking with it.

Do you have the 'Kiss of Death' rule if you don't have a Harlequin's Kiss? There's no need to mention the weapon when its a rule of the weapon we're talking about.

Drazosh wrote:
Again, we're not gonna agree on this one, I suspect.

Well, it looks like we can agree on one thing then

When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Bojazz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Per round of combat.

And what rules support do you have for that decision? I can't tell my fellow players "because Kriswall decided that was the time frame".

What I'm saying is that some weapons have special rules that are not connected to the close combat attacks of that weapon (such as Eldrad's spiritlink). When a weapon has an ability that affects that weapons close combat attacks, it is always explicitly worded as such. "Attacks made with this weapon", "Rolls to hit with this weapon", etc. They can be found across all codexes and throughout the rulebook. Caress of death even has this wording. Kiss of death does not, which indicates to me that it is an ability which functions differently to those of other weapon abilities. It states that one close combat attack must be a kiss of death attack. Rather than taking that to mean "This model may only ever attack with the kiss of death" or "One of the attacks made with this weapon must be a kiss of death attack", I take that to mean exactly what it says. "One of this model's close combat attacks is a kiss of death attack". That is how I interpret it, and that is my reasoning for doing so. I'll have to follow Drazosh's example and agree to disagree now, and bleakly hope for an FAQ.

Sounds similar to how the Nemesis Greatsword used to function

The prior codex Greatsword gifted rerolls of wounds/hits/pens simply by the model having it, as most people attacked with the doomfist to be Str 10 AP 2

The FAQ clearly granted the bonus from equiping the sword to attacking with the Doomfist for rerollable Str 10 ap2 hits, even though the Doomfist and the Greatsword were two separate weapons with two separate profiles

So its not unheard of a weapon granting an extra ability just by simply equipping it.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Sounds similar to how the Nemesis Greatsword used to function

The prior codex Greatsword gifted rerolls of wounds/hits/pens simply by the model having it, as most people attacked with the doomfist to be Str 10 AP 2

The FAQ clearly granted the bonus from equiping the sword to attacking with the Doomfist for rerollable Str 10 ap2 hits, even though the Doomfist and the Greatsword were two separate weapons with two separate profiles

So its not unheard of a weapon granting an extra ability just by simply equipping it.

That's interesting, but i must ask. Was the rule for the re-rolls included in the Greatsword profile or was just a special rule? Like, did rule appear were it said "type: melee, force, re-roll special rule"?

 Kriswall wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.
/snip
This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

Yriel does not suffer from "cursed" while he is attacking though. He suffers from cursed when he is attacked. Why would attacking with a different weapon prevent him from being affected by a special rule that has nothing to do with him attacking with a certain weapon? By that logic, is eldrad prohibited from using his witchblade in combat if he had attempted to recover a warp charge using his spiritlink ability on his staff in the psychic phase? Where do you draw the line on the time limit for being affected by the abilities of two different weapons?

Per round of combat.

Woah, now. The rule in question, as quoted earlier:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

There's no mention of it lasting the round of combat, the phase, or anything beyond the attacks that model makes. Earlier versions of the rule did, but earlier versions of the rule from previous editions were far better worded. At best, I could say it lasts for the initiative step in which the model attacks, but even that is stretching the vocabulary.

I would interpret "comes to strike blows" as "engages in combat with an enemy unit"... in the same sense that I would interpret "when John comes to audit our taxes" as the entire period of time when John is in my house for the purposes of tax auditing, regardless of whether he's auditing or taking a bathroom break. In other words, the current assault phase. As we have no game definition for "comes to strike blows", this is going to be an item open to interpretation. If I've missed a game definition for "comes to strike blows", please cite the page number and rules reference. I've been known to make mistakes before.

My argument is mainly that the active part of that phrase is comes and not strike blows. A model engaged in a combat has come to that combat to strike blows. If the rules simply said "when the model strikes blows", I would interpret it as during the To Hit roll section only. Unfortunately, this is not what it says.

I know this is going to devolve into a he said/she said rules as intended versus rules as written thing, but this is my interpretation of the situation.

To the OP: The rules definitely don't support attacking with a different weapon but still gaining the Kiss of Death benefit of the Harlequin's Kiss. This would be mixing and matching the abilities of several (two) different Melee weapons. The rules MAY support gaining the benefit of abilities from several different Melee weapons, but ONLY when the model in question hasn't 'come to strike blows'. You'll have to decide what 'comes to strike blows' means as it's not defined in the rules and is ambiguous at best.

That's one of those arguments where the only correct answer is "GW is bad at rules writing." The rule is so badly written, it barely looks like more than flavor text. I won't go into it beyond that.

As for the actual topic, I don't think you'll find a consensus here. As always with rules disputes, remember to discuss the issue with your opponent before you begin and, if all else fails, roll off on it.

I think that a very relevant set of rules here, is this:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Notice the emphasis. Combine with the rules Kriswall pointed at:

 Kriswall wrote:

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons. In knowledge of the "Greatsword situation" (Which is now a new Codex and therefore irrelevant - unless the new codex has the same issue?)