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That's just about the summary of the debate. Trouble is, what are a weapon's 'abilities'? Where is the term defined? If it said 'special rules', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, more on topic, does the Kiss of Death apply in the "a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using" because it is part of its profile, or is it a special rule conferred to the model by its wargear since the rule does not say anything about its existing attacks except as timing.

Kriswall (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you; all respect intended) appears to believe that all elements of the weapon's profile are effectively ignored, special rules and all, when a another weapon is in use. This is a rational interpretation, although it leads to certain rules verbage that is unnecessary (Like Daemon Weapon explicitly stating that you only roll when fighting with that weapon, or the assorted "this weapon" references on all other weapon-specific special rules) or negated (Blinded from the Axe of Blind Fury never lowers your BS, because you are never, ever using it in shooting). Even still, it's rational.

My interpretation is a weapon's 'abilities' are its traits and special rules which, by the wording of its rules, are explicitly directed at the weapon and/or its attacks. ("Attacks with this weapon," "hits with this weapon," etc. The special rule on the Harlequin's Caress uses some of this terminology) Also rational, but I freely admit it's inflexible and not particularly intuitive at all times.

Drazosh wrote:
That's just about the summary of the debate. Trouble is, what are a weapon's 'abilities'? Where is the term defined? If it said 'special rules', we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, more on topic, does the Kiss of Death apply in the "a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using" because it is part of its profile, or is it a special rule conferred to the model by its wargear since the rule does not say anything about its existing attacks except as timing.

Kriswall (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you; all respect intended) appears to believe that all elements of the weapon's profile are effectively ignored, special rules and all, when a another weapon is in use. This is a rational interpretation, although it leads to certain rules verbage that is unnecessary (Like Daemon Weapon explicitly stating that you only roll when fighting with that weapon, or the assorted "this weapon" references on all other weapon-specific special rules) or negated (Blinded from the Axe of Blind Fury never lowers your BS, because you are never, ever using it in shooting). Even still, it's rational.

My interpretation is a weapon's 'abilities' are its traits and special rules which, by the wording of its rules, are explicitly directed at the weapon and/or its attacks. ("Attacks with this weapon," "hits with this weapon," etc. The special rule on the Harlequin's Caress uses some of this terminology) Also rational, but I freely admit it's inflexible and not particularly intuitive at all times.

My post just before yours was about "special rules".
Not "abilities".

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

 Kriswall wrote:

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

My emphasis. That was the "abilities" to which I referred.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

Bojazz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

Debate and rules continuity aside, BRB under Basic Versus Advanced:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

So Yriel's always Cursed because his listing says he is. The core rulebook can't ever be used to strip a model's rules off, even temporarily.

Drazosh wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would clearly conclude that any rules present on a weapon's profile would only apply when using said weapons.

So Eldrad can never regain warp charges, and Yriel never has to re-roll saving throws of 6, because those abilities never come into play when they're using the weapons with those special rules.

Debate and rules continuity aside, BRB under Basic Versus Advanced:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

So Yriel's always Cursed because his listing says he is. The core rulebook can't ever be used to strip a model's rules off, even temporarily.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Cursed isn't a part of the Spear of Twilight. It is a separate 'Remnant of Glory'.

Cursed is a special rule found on the Spear of Twilight.

Spear of Twilight:
Range: -, S: X, AP: X, Type: Melee, Cursed, Fleshbane, Armourbane

 BlackTalos wrote:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

Because you can only use weapons during combat.

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

I'd argue that Yriel never suffers from Cursed unless he suffers a wound while swinging his weapon. There's no rule saying you are using your weapon during your opponents initiative phases, nor during the movement, etc. phases.

I don't believe anyone seriously suggests Yriel is ever not Cursed... the rule is specific.

Cursed: When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6.

No "when using this weapon," or "after attacking with this weapon," just "engaged in combat," to make sure he'd even have to re-roll before his initiative. Basic Versus Advanced kicks in, and it overrides any core rule saying he is ever NOT Cursed. Yriel's been around for a few years now, so none of this is new...

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. (...). That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Unless, as stated above, Eldrad and Yriel are using those weapons. During their movement, shooting, enemy shooting, enemy movement phases, why would they not be able to use them?

Because you can only use weapons during combat.

But the question, and discussion, was about whether they have these rules during combat. The answer is clear:

 Kriswall wrote:
When Yriel uses the Plasma Grenades, he does not suffer from Cursed.

When Crowe uses a grenade, his unit does not benefit from Furious Charge and re-rolls.

When the Clown Dancer Elf uses a different weapon, he does not get to use the Kiss of Death.

This is because the rules are extremely explicit and clear that you aren't allowed to mix and match abilities from different weapons when attacking. This rule has been cited early in the thread.

If you believe more than one weapon's abilities can be used simultaneously, just cite your permission.

I'd argue that Yriel never suffers from Cursed unless he suffers a wound while swinging his weapon. There's no rule saying you are using your weapon during your opponents initiative phases, nor during the movement, etc. phases.

Then the RaW is clear, and HYWPI is needed.

Drazosh wrote:
I don't believe anyone seriously suggests Yriel is ever not Cursed... the rule is specific.

Cursed: When engaged in combat, Yriel must re-roll saving throws of 6.

No "when using this weapon," or "after attacking with this weapon," just "engaged in combat," to make sure he'd even have to re-roll before his initiative. Basic Versus Advanced kicks in, and it overrides any core rule saying he is ever NOT Cursed. Yriel's been around for a few years now, so none of this is new...

No, it's not new. It's always been a fact that you don't use the special rules of the weapon when you're not using the weapon.
Is Yriel using his Spear when it's not his initiative?

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

There's the whole text of the rule. If codex says X =True, the rulebook explicitly does not give itself permission to contradict; even if it says "Yriel's a cool guy and should die less, so he can keep his 6's on tuesdays," he is still Cursed and re-rolls 6's when engaged in combat because the core rules explicitly cannot say differently.

That said, everyone can play as they like! I won't stop you.

Except you're missing the specific exception to 'More Than One Weapon' in the 'Kiss of Death' rule.

Drazosh wrote:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

There's the whole text of the rule. If codex says X =True, the rulebook explicitly does not give itself permission to contradict; even if it says "Yriel's a cool guy and should die less, so he can keep his 6's on tuesdays," he is still Cursed and re-rolls 6's when engaged in combat because the core rules explicitly cannot say differently.

That said, everyone can play as they like! I won't stop you.

So what you're saying is that you don't understand the argument at all. Cool.

Please show me the "Cursed" rule in Yriel's Army List Entry.
Since you can't, I'll point out that it's on his Spear. Do you agree?
Now - the rule you quoted says that if there is a conflict then the more advanced rule takes precedence.

There's no conflict between Cursed and when weapons are used, and how those rules interact. None. If you disagree, explain the conflict.

No need to get heated. I apologize if I provoked.

I wasn't trying to apply Basic vs Advanced to the Harlequin's Kiss. I'm quite off-topic, and for that, I apologize as well.

The conflict I see is that the Advanced Rule: Cursed applies because the wargear that assigns it is listed in his army list entry. Basic vs. Advanced states that special weapons apply advanced rules to the model. More Than One Weapon specifically states he must choose which "weapon to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons." He can select a different weapon to attack with, without applying any of the spear's abilities to those attacks (which I totally agree with!), but he is still Cursed when not attacking because it is in his wargear -and, thus, army list entry - that he is. I don't see another way to interpret it without simply ignoring any rule on a weapon that does not specifically apply to attacking with it, like Cursed, Spiritlink, or Blinded. With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

Would you care to mention where the BRB states when a weapon is used and when it isn't?
If I made a shooting attack that caused no wounds, but caused the model to suffer from instant death, with no saves of any kind allowed then, by your logic, the wargear Shield Eternal that grants EW doesn't grant the CM immunity against EW, because he's not "using" his shield to save against a wound, since it's just an attack that causes ID automatically, not any wounds?

So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

 Zewrath wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drazosh wrote:
With Cursed or Blinded, I'd be happy to ignore them when not attacking, since they're mostly drawbacks

Fortunately, the rules support that. You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

I couldn't find a source for the word "benefit," or that would have clarified matters earlier. Cursed is clearly not a benefit, so it wouldn't be ignored, following that wording. Anything positive, though, would be.

Wait... or do you mean that the rules support ignoring those specific rules? Forgive the misunderstanding.

I do mean that the rules support ignoring special rule on a weapon that you're not currently using.
Meaning Cursed has no effect unless Yriel suffers wounds at his initiative step.

Would you care to mention where the BRB states when a weapon is used and when it isn't?
If I made a shooting attack that caused no wounds, but caused the model to suffer from instant death, with no saves of any kind allowed then, by your logic, the wargear Shield Eternal that grants EW doesn't grant the CM immunity against EW, because he's not "using" his shield to save against a wound, since it's just an attack that causes ID automatically, not any wounds?

Incorrect. It's not a melee weapon.

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drazosh wrote:
So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

Yes. That's how the rules are written.

It's obviously not intended, however, and I'd never play that way. I'd allow the new Kiss to work regardless of what weapon is being used.

Drazosh wrote:
So Blinded on Axe of Blind Fury never applies the -1BS, because you are never using the Axe for a BS attack. Eldrad's Spiritlink never applies, since he can't use psychic powers in the Assault phase. And this is supported because there is no conflict between the rule that cannot apply and the core rules. Is that correct?

Apparently, this is what it has come to. Rules that are clearly, obviously intended to function outside of close combat now can never apply. Seems legit.

The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

That's quite the interpretation. I'm not entirely sure I would play against anyone who actually took that interpretation seriously and played that way. I can see where you would read it that way, though. I could have read the books cover to cover for the rest of my life, however, and never once read it that way. I guess my brain instinctively makes the "Rule cannot apply = conflict!" jump quite independently.

That said, going by the interpretation of the rules you and I would ACTUALLY go with, the Kiss of Death rule seems like it applies regardless of your wish, so long as you're making close combat attacks. Correct?

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

And is 40k a video game? Do the rules in the White Dwarf apply to a video game?

rigeld2 wrote:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.

That's not what it says. It says you can't mix and match the abilities. That does not translate into preventing effects like Cursed from occurring.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
The crux of it, IMO: when are you "equipped" with a weapon or piece of wargear? Cause that special rule on the Kiss says that you get the replacement attack when it's "equipped". Doesn't sound like that's the same thing as when you "use" or "wield" a weapon.

Ask anyone who plays video games what he means to 'equip' a weapon on their character. It means that they're actually using that weapon.

And is 40k a video game? Do the rules in the White Dwarf apply to a video game?

That doesn't mean that the writers can't have intended for that to be the meaning they meant. Without a glossary of terms that is just as valid a definition of 'equipped' as any other.

The way I read it, a melee weapon outside of combat is still wargear. Wargear is advanced rules. So long as you don't enter a situation where you must select one to apply, it remains wargear and its advanced rules (outside of those affecting your attacks with that weapon, obviously, since there are none to modify).

As for video games and equipping... MMO Hunters/Archers/Rangers have decades of melee "stat sticks" that argue with that.

 Zewrath wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Melee weapon abilities don't apply until you come to strike blows.

That's not what it says. It says you can't mix and match the abilities. That does not translate into preventing effects like Cursed from occurring.

It says that you choose which Melee weapon to attack with when it comes to strike blows (at your initiative). And that the abilities of melee weapons can only be used when that melee weapon is striking blows (again, at initiative).

Therefore Cursed, a melee weapon ability, can only apply when the melee weapon it's attached to is striking blows.

The ONLY time when you can't benefit from the abilities of multiple Melee Weapons is when the model "comes to strike blows". What does this mean? It's not defined.

The most reasonable interpretation seems to be a round of combat. This is obviously HIWPI as the RaW has no definition. This creates an unknowable situation... i.e. a potentially broken rule requiring an FAQ or Errata.

During the Movement Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Shooting Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. During the Psychic Phase, you can benefit from ALL the rules. The only time there is a restriction against using abilities from more than one weapon is when the model "comes to strike blows".

If we use this to mean a round of combat, things seem to work out. If Yriel is using his Spear, he gets the re-roll since he has the Spear "in hand" when his opponent wounds him. If he attacks instead with a grenade, he does not have the Spear "in hand" when his opponent wounds him and therefore doesn't benefit from the Spear's ability to allow him to re-roll the save (or whatever it does... scrolling on a phone is a pain).

If we use "comes to strike blows" to mean only during the actual To Hit portion of a combat, then all of a sudden you can benefit from multiple weapons abilities when your opponent is swinging back at you.

TL : DR ;

You definitely can't use the Kiss of Death ability when attacking with something other than the Harlequin's Kiss because even the loosest interpretation of "comes to strike blows" would have to include the To Hit portion. You might be able to use multiple abilities during other portions of the combat, depending on how you interpret "comes to strike blows".

Wait for an FAQ (good luck) or work it out with your friends.

HIWPI - "comes to strike blows" = 1 round of combat