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The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://img258.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=380801802_20150127_183404_122_184lo.jpg

Added link for reference of the WD rule.

 Zewrath wrote:
The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://img258.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=380801802_20150127_183404_122_184lo.jpg

Added link for reference of the WD rule.

Can you a model equipped with a Thunderhammer and power sword, while using the power sword, apply concussive to its hits?

I don't believe you gain any benefit from a weapon you aren't attacking with in terms of special rules.

BRB - More Than One Weapon section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mx and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So, if you attack with Melee Weapon #2, you can't use the "Kiss of Death" ability as that would be mixing and matching. For all practical purposes, the Harlequin's Kiss might as well be a CCW when attacking with a different Melee Weapon.

That's not his question.

His question is: "If I have a model that has 3 attacks, can I choose to make 1 attack with the 'Harlequins kiss' and the other two attacks with the power weapon.

I don't think you can because IIRC Horus has a special rule that allows him to do exactly this.

Its already been covered by the 'More Than One Weapon' rule that Kriswall referenced.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
The rule:
The Harlequin's Kiss uses the profile S: user AP: - type: melee, Kiss of Death.

"Kiss of Death: When a model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this attack seperately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP 2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."

Question: Can I use Harlequin's Caress, that has a different profile or a power weapon AND still make the Kiss of Death attack? The way I see it, as long as the model is equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss, it simply gets the Kiss of Death attack without being actually required to attack with the weapon in CC.
What do you guys think, do I have a leg to stand on if I tried to convince someone of this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://img258.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=380801802_20150127_183404_122_184lo.jpg

Added link for reference of the WD rule.

Can you a model equipped with a Thunderhammer and power sword, while using the power sword, apply concussive to its hits?

I suggest you reread my post, because that's not my question.

The rule states that as long as the model have the weapon equiped, one of its CC attacks will be the Kiss of Death Attack. It doesn't state that you need to use the weapon, just equipped.

Furthermore, the concussive USR explicitly states that the model needs to suffer an unsaved wound from a weapon that has this USR, in order to apply its effect and weapon with shred also explicitly states that they require you to attack with the weapon that has the shred USR, in order to benefit from the USR. Again, this is not the case with the Harlequin's Kiss.
Could you explain your counter arguement to why I'm not allowed to have a unit, with 4 attacks on charge, make 3 attacks with with his power sword and 1 seperate with the Kiss of Death Attack? Bear in mind that I'm actually not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, I'm making a seperate attack granted by the Kiss of Death.

The 'More Than One Weapon' rule prevents it, and nothing in the rules you've provided overrides that restriction.

Ghaz, the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss states that the model only has to be equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss and that if it is equipped then one of it's attacks gets the special rule "Kiss of Death" and is rolled separately from the other attacks.

"Kiss of Death: when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks, one of it's attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack (roll this attack separately). A Kiss of Death attack is always resolved at S6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled to wound with a Kiss of Death attack, the attack has the instant death special rule."

Implying that you are given specific permission to make one attack with this special rule and the rest of your attacks with whatever weapon you have equipped.

@OP: the rules state that you make your close combat attacks and only one of them uses the Kiss of Death rule. I'd say that you can make the rest of your attacks with the Harlequin's Caress the way the rules are written.

 NightHowler wrote:
Ghaz, the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss states that the model only has to be equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss and that if it is equipped then one of it's attacks gets the special rule "Kiss of Death" and is rolled separately from the other attacks.

"Kiss of Death: when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks, one of it's attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack (roll this attack separately). A Kiss of Death attack is always resolved at S6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled to wound with a Kiss of Death attack, the attack has the instant death special rule."

Implying that you are given specific permission to make one attack with this special rule and the rest of your attacks with whatever weapon you have equipped.

@OP: the rules state that you make your close combat attacks and only one of them uses the Kiss of Death rule. I'd say that you can make the rest of your attacks with the Harlequin's Caress the way the rules are written.

The issue is that unless you are attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use any of its abilities. Kiss of Death is one of its abilities. The More Than One Weapon rule cited above prevents mix and matching of abilities. It prevents, for example, using the profile of Weapon #2 and the special rules associated with the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how the Kiss of Death is worded. Unless you're attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, the Kiss of Death ability is ignored.

I understand what you're saying. I was under the impression that since it states, "when a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes it's close combat attacks..." instead of saying "when a model attacks with a Harlequin's Kiss..." the implication was that you attack with another weapon and as long as the Kiss is equipped you get one special attack with it.

@OP: so it looks like you have to choose one weapon or the other.

 Kriswall wrote:

The issue is that unless you are attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use any of its abilities. Kiss of Death is one of its abilities. The More Than One Weapon rule cited above prevents mix and matching of abilities. It prevents, for example, using the profile of Weapon #2 and the special rules associated with the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how the Kiss of Death is worded. Unless you're attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, the Kiss of Death ability is ignored.

Hmm.. I must confess, I can't find a way to challenge your arguement.

It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

GW is notoriously lax with their wording. When it comes to the word 'equipped', its probably best to use the video game definition of the word meaning the weapon currently in use.

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

IIRC, Mandiblasters are stated to grant an autohit attack at init 10 step.


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 Ghaz wrote:
GW is notoriously lax with their wording. When it comes to the word 'equipped', its probably best to use the video game definition of the word meaning the weapon currently in use.

I concur. What annoys me the most is how casual they are with units vs models, and keep forgetting how big a difference there is between the two.

Oh well, thanks for the help. I'm off to bed.

Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

I suggest you look at the link in OP. That's the official WD rules.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Heres an idea, Lets wait fo the actual rules to come out, then we can argue about it.

You mean the ones that came out are are linked in OP's post?

Yeh for sure, this may be answered in the White dwarf or in the supplement to come. Let's relax for now but it is a good question as I read it in the same way ( make 5 attacks with the H caress and 1 with a kiss ) mwah xxx

Does a khorne lord equipped with an Axe of Blind Fury only suffer the -1 ballistic skill when he is making melee attacks with the axe?

 Wilson wrote:
Yeh for sure, this may be answered in the White dwarf or in the supplement to come. Let's relax for now but it is a good question as I read it in the same way ( make 5 attacks with the H caress and 1 with a kiss ) mwah xxx

Actually you'd make all 6 attacks with the Harlequin' Kiss and only one of those attacks (chosen before you roll) would be a 'Kiss of Death' attack.

WangoFett wrote:
Does a khorne lord equipped with an Axe of Blind Fury only suffer the -1 ballistic skill when he is making melee attacks with the axe?

Yes : P

Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Semi-related question; For Caress of Death "Each to hit roll of a 6 made by a weapon with this special rule causes a single automatic wound".

Does this mean that hit is discarded and causes an automatic wound, or does it cause an automatic wound in addition to the "to wound" roll that comes afterwards?

 Kriswall wrote:
It would be completely different if it were a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

I'm not a big Eldar guy, but I THINK a Striking Scorpion's Mandiblasters work in conjunction with it's other attacks. Very possible I'm wrong here. My memory tells me the Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear and not a Melee weapon.

All weapons are Wargear, as they fall under the "WARGEAR:" header on the datasheet.

Rules like Concussive are worded in a specific way, such as "A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule." In these cases, the More Than One Weapon rule covers it neatly; you are either using the weapon with that special rule or you aren't. Other special rules on weapons, like the aforementioned Blinded rule on the Axe of Blind Fury, make no reference to "an attack with" that weapon and simply confer an effect on the model with the wargear in question, as with any other wargear with a special rule. Considering the specific wording on the Kiss ("one of its attacks WILL be a Kiss of Death Attack", emphasis mine), it actually appears that the Kiss of Death attack is not even optional; the Kiss eats one of your attacks even if, for whatever reason, you don't want it to.

This, of course, doesn't mean that RAI or a later FAQ/exposition will contradict the RAW, but at that point, unless the wording on Kiss of Death is changed, I'd argue that the Kiss is mandatory and the Caress is nothing more than an additional melee weapon.

Well this could lead to fun stuff. Wonder why this issue never came up before. Maybe because this time it involves Eldar players.

If I have a Daemon with Mutating Warpblade, technically every character/monster he kills turns into spawn?
I dont need to use the warpblade to do it, or even be in close combat?

I cam combo the Rampage from Blade of Blood with another weapon?

A Hellbrute can use the power flail's ability and hit with a power first?

You can combo the Daemon Weapon's additional attacks with another weapon? Abaddon got much better.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Then why does the Harlequin's Kiss have a weapon profile in addition to the profile for its 'Kiss of Death' attack if its only used to provide a 'Kiss of Death' attack? You're clearly trying to split the attacks between two weapons.

Chad Warden wrote:
Well this could lead to fun stuff. Wonder why this issue never came up before. Maybe because this time it involves Eldar players.

If I have a Daemon with Mutating Warpblade, technically every character/monster he kills turns into spawn?
I dont need to use the warpblade to do it, or even be in close combat?

I cam combo the Rampage from Blade of Blood with another weapon?

A Hellbrute can use the power flail's ability and hit with a power first?

You can combo the Daemon Weapon's additional attacks with another weapon? Abaddon got much better.

The wording on Mutating Warpblade doesn't specify needing to make an attack with it to trigger that effect. The Bloodlust ability specifically states that the bearer gains Rampage (exact same sort of wording as the -1BS on the Axe of Blind Fury, so if one is true, both must be). I don't have the rules for the Hellbrute handy. The rules for Daemon Weapon, though, quite clearly state that you only roll when you are fighting with that weapon if you have multiple weapons, so sorry, Abaddon's no better.

Seems more of a triggered ability than an inbuilt rule to the weapons profile.

Funnily enough, by that wording you also cannot chose not to use the ability either.

For those talking about the more than one weapon rule: by your judgement, a model with the kiss of death will never be able to opt to use a different weapon.

Why?
If it works as you have said then they must use the kiss of death.
Simply because the rule says one attack will perform it.
So even if you have a power weapon, the second you attack the rule triggers, and by your ideas, means the weapon must be used.

I see it as more of an extra ability than something specific for its attacks


Hope this makes sense anyway

 Ghaz wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Respectfully I disagree.

The more then one weapon rule does not prohibit other special rules from functioning. The kiss of death special rule does not require the weapon bused to make any attacks, only that close combat attacks be made. Its the same situation with the old Grey Knight MC's great sword. When the new GK codex was released the language of the sword was changed to make it only work for attacks made with the sword.

@ Zewrath
RAW I could see it going either way to be honest, RAI though it seems like an oversight from GW. If you want to play your model that way explain your reasoning to your opponent before the start of the game but this is the kind of thing you won't want to spend more then a few seconds discussing. If he or she has issues with your interruption its best not to push it.

Then why does the Harlequin's Kiss have a weapon profile in addition to the profile for its 'Kiss of Death' attack if its only used to provide a 'Kiss of Death' attack? You're clearly trying to split the attacks between two weapons.

I suspect it has a profile because you can exchange the close combat weapon on a troupe player or master with it, and it needs rules to count as a close combat weapon so that they still count as being armed with two weapons (including pistol) if you do so. If it was just an upgrade and not a replacement for the CCW, with no weapon profile, then you could ADDITIONALLY replace the CCW with a Caress and have a squad of mini-Solitaires running around for 28 points each, which would make me physically ill.

So then it is a weapon. So why are you trying to use two weapons at one time when the rules don't allow you to do so?