When a unit gets TOO much of everything...yesterday, we had a game with my friend and he wanted to proxy the Sicaran Battle Tank and since we wasn´t filming, i was cool with it. BUT, the rules for that, oh my godz! Accelerator Autocannon first. Its a 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6, Rending, with rapid tracking (ignores jink saves). Yeah AND twin-linked. You can get a relic to get TANK HUNTER, and for larger games another, that can knock of Haywire. Once / game Interceptor/Skyfire...Did i mention the Ceramic Plating option? And AV13 ALL AROUND...this is when Forge World just puts EVERYTHING in to one tank. I told my friend, that this could be the unit (get a character, was it a Chaplain? Can´t remember and you can get THREE of these), that i would just not play against. And it´s cheap without any upgrades, about a predator with all lascannons...thank the dicegodz my friend thought it "a bit" OP too...i sometimes use my Forge World Hornet´s and even thou they are cheap and great, you can actually KILL THEM...they have weaknesses....that tank does not...that´s the kind of unit that takes the fun out of the game IMHO...
Does someone use these? How does the opponent look like, when i whip it out of the case? Are these used in some tournaments?
I think that the AV for the Sicaran has been faq'ed to be 12 at the side and rear, the AV 13 all round is a misprint iirc. Not sure if that helps your annoyances but it's something . Aside from that one can only have one of them in a non Heresy army since it's a relic of the armory whcih are limited to one iirc.
Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?
And Gertjan, there are certain HQ choices (such as a MotF) that let you take multiple Relic vehicles. I normally take a Sicaran and a Whirlwind Scorpius with my Iron Hands.
It's a strong unit for the points but side armour 12 and being a big model can make it easy pray. Normally the only people that I've seen refuse to play against it are eldar or dark eldar, I find that quite amusing considering their options (mainly eldar)
Personally I'm all for things ignoring jinks but I do find the relic upgrades or what ever there called are a step to far.
The problem with the Sicaran tank is that it is a hard counter to certain armies (namely skimmer heavy armies). While this seems fine against Eldar (since they are very competitive and it countered one of the best untis in the game) against more balanced armies like Dark Eldar it is a slap in the face for players already struggling to remain competitive.
beast_gts wrote: And Gertjan, there are certain HQ choices (such as a MotF) that let you take multiple Relic vehicles. I normally take a Sicaran and a Whirlwind Scorpius with my Iron Hands.
Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting about something there. That'll teach me saying stuff from the top of my head rather than looking it up.
Drasius wrote: Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?
Forge World units aren't universally overpowered so I don't get your 'what do you expect from FW' comment.
The Sicaran is balanced at the top end of the game. Is it more powerful/cheesy/broken then wave serpents, riptides, etc? It’s not like overpowered units are the exclusive purview of FW. That said, I’d rather the game was balanced against the midline units, and not the exceptional ones. But as long as units that are solidly better then others exists, we can expect to see them on the table.
I think it’s got a few too many shiny features and options for it’s points. IMHO it’s not crossed the line to overpowered brokeness, but it’s close.
Its a great vehicle. Its supposed to be more powerful than a wave serpent. Using that argument is stupid. Its a transport versus a main battle tank, the battle tank is supposed to win EVERY time.
Are you guys sure its twin linked? I am pretty sure in my red book it is not twin linked.
Its well worth the costly points you pay for it. I pay the points for ceramite and lascannons as well.Its more expensive than a predator and is a little bit better accordingly. Very fairly priced.
I placed this also on another forum and all i got was "Eldar themselves are OP, Wave Serpents, blahblahblah" - add baby cry here comments. THANK YOU people, for quality answers and thoughts here, i appreciate it! That AV12 on the rear and sides -info would have helped thou and i agree, that the WS IS tough. BUT...as for the Sicaran, so does the WS fall for the Sternguard drop podding in...and i had 0 WS´s in this game, it was Dark Eldar/Iyanden list, but the Raiders took "some" hits. We have banned Invisibility from our games, it´s just easier (more fun) that way. It´s too bad, there´s no Tau -player in our FLGC, i would like to face some Riptides. I have seen them in action and they can be tough, with that 2+/5++/FNP -combo. We had a great game last week, where we agreed ahead of time, that we don´t take fliers. That was a fun game! Rhinos and Land Speeders and such, oh my!
I have a Sicaran, and while I don't use the Legacies of Glory, only once has it survived past Turn 2. AV13 is incredibly easy to destroy in this edition if you focus on it.
Also, I like that it can be melta immune with armored ceramite. Anything that breaks up the meta and forces people to come out of their comfort zone and adapt can only be a good thing.
Silverthorne wrote: Yeah although armored ceramite sucks balls if you have a Ravenwing army, since melta is your only anti-tank solution.
Amusingly, melta bombs do not have the melta rule, and bypass the ceramite.
Plus it's only armour 12, so still relatively easy to hurt without the melta rule, especially if you've got Melta as your only anti tank option and so likely have a fair bit of it.
You still get the bonus to damage results for AP, and if it's on a mobile platform like a bike, you can always try and hit it up the jacksie for AV11.
It's not the most underpriced unit in the game... but it clearly is somewhat underpriced compared to the other SM tanks (maybe SM tanks just need a price drop, or a stat boost).
The Sicaran is fine, perhaps it could cost a bit more but other than that. It´s a good counter to serpents and it is also easy to destroy if you play even a relatively competitive list. If you don't, well, you´ll have trouble with a lot more things than the Sicaran.
The Sicaran is good, something that is welcome for CSM as they are not very competitive (outside of certain builds, mostly Nurgle). It's also a nice model and a good counter for the unbalanced Jink. Having something that makes bikes and Wave Serpents less powerful can only be a good thing.
It is NOT however broken, cheesy or "the most d-bag unit ever". Not even near.
Drasius wrote:Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?
Hm... an army of over-costed guardsmen with poor weapon options and a couple of nice fliers and/or vehicles. That's pretty much what I expect from Forge World, to be honest.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Ceramtic plating should be removed from the game!
Ceramite is 20 points, not like its a cheap upgrade. I have never used or looked at the legacies since I play 30k armies and as far as I am aware, we don't have access to them, I will agree some of them sound broken, but then since its FW, they probably cost a lot of points.
DanielBeaver wrote: It's not the most underpriced unit in the game... but it clearly is somewhat underpriced compared to the other SM tanks (maybe SM tanks just need a price drop, or a stat boost).
The last part is correct. LasPreds are costed okay, but everything else is overcosted for effectiveness. Land Raiders die too easily, Whirlwinds have no real advantage if you just find 35 points for a TFC, Stalkers and Hunters have more limited applications, and Land Speeders die by having something mean stare at them.
The Sicaran was a godsend for the Marine players that like vehicles.
Drasius wrote: Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?
Forge World units aren't universally overpowered so I don't get your 'what do you expect from FW' comment.
No, they aren't. Just the ones people ACTUALLY buy and use. Because they are looking for strictly better versions of things. Using things like forgeworld death korps of krieg to represent guard is fine. Crap like this is why people are switching games left and right. That and GW's insane policies lately.
DanielBeaver wrote: It's not the most underpriced unit in the game... but it clearly is somewhat underpriced compared to the other SM tanks (maybe SM tanks just need a price drop, or a stat boost).
The last part is correct. LasPreds are costed okay, but everything else is overcosted for effectiveness. Land Raiders die too easily, Whirlwinds have no real advantage if you just find 35 points for a TFC, Stalkers and Hunters have more limited applications, and Land Speeders die by having something mean stare at them.
The Sicaran was a godsend for the Marine players that like vehicles.
Land Raiders are the case of a tool being overcosted; you look at the stats and think... "This is a tank!" but no one wants the firepower it gives because it's overcosted and if you take one its because you want to move guys who themselves are already goddamn expensive.
This is coming from an eldar player who can take a tank with AV12 front and side,, fast skimmer, 3+ jink, has a transport cap of 10, and has most of its shots (which are far more than a sicaran) twin linked.
Oh and it can choose to have a 2+ against pens...
AND it doesn't take up any slots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For just 10pts more than a base sicaran.
This is all because there is finally something reliable against serps isnt it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other words no - the serpent is the most d-bag unit ever.
When a unit gets TOO much of everything...yesterday, we had a game with my friend and he wanted to proxy the Sicaran Battle Tank and since we wasn´t filming, i was cool with it. BUT, the rules for that, oh my godz! Accelerator Autocannon first. Its a 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6, Rending, with rapid tracking (ignores jink saves). Yeah AND twin-linked. You can get a relic to get TANK HUNTER, and for larger games another, that can knock of Haywire. Once / game Interceptor/Skyfire...Did i mention the Ceramic Plating option? And AV13 ALL AROUND...this is when Forge World just puts EVERYTHING in to one tank. I told my friend, that this could be the unit (get a character, was it a Chaplain? Can´t remember and you can get THREE of these), that i would just not play against. And it´s cheap without any upgrades, about a predator with all lascannons...thank the dicegodz my friend thought it "a bit" OP too...i sometimes use my Forge World Hornet´s and even thou they are cheap and great, you can actually KILL THEM...they have weaknesses....that tank does not...that´s the kind of unit that takes the fun out of the game IMHO...
Does someone use these? How does the opponent look like, when i whip it out of the case? Are these used in some tournaments?
- Lost Vyper
So, have you looked at its cost, and its errata'd armor value? With sponsons and legacies and ceramite your'e talking a 220pt+ tank. LIkewise, as you said, its base cost is as much as a tri-las predator.
If you can kill a predator...you can kill a Sicaran. It's hardly anywhere near as abusive as the common Wave Serpent is.
Also, did you never play against the old IG Hydra? It had the same jink-save ignoring capability.
In any game where wave serpents and Imperial Knights exist along with 2+ re-rollable saves... an AV 13/12/12 tank with AP 4 weaponry can't really be an issue.
Lobukia wrote: In any game where wave serpents and Imperial Knights exist along with 2+ re-rollable saves... an AV 13/12/12 tank with AP 4 weaponry can't really be an issue.
The whine over this is turned up way too loud
It's definitely an issue if you use serpents as a crutch. Otherwise you are completely correct.
With the schism of mars + lascannons + ceremite you are talking almost landraider price, for a tank with lower armour, less hps, no transport cap but much better weaponary. Don't get me wrong - with schism (or sarosh) it is imo the best tank marines have. I just find it ironic (and hypocritical) that only eldar players complain about it. We all know why though.
Against armour, possibly, but the vanilla Sicaran has greater utility, it's a damn fine anti infantry platform once it's done butchering transports and medium armour.
The Venator is a fair bit more expensive too isn't it? The extra price and the fact it only really fills one role, which might be pretty useless if your opponent doesn't have any heavy armour makes it a bit less attractive. Sweet ass model though. Both of them actually.
as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?
Col. Dash wrote: Ceramite is 20 points, not like its a cheap upgrade. I have never used or looked at the legacies since I play 30k armies and as far as I am aware, we don't have access to them, I will agree some of them sound broken, but then since its FW, they probably cost a lot of points.
I don't mind the cost of Ceramite, and I'd probably grumble quieter if it was named something else.
Everything in this universe is already Ceramite. Melta is already taking that into account. Only the rarest of the rare should be able to ignore the specific technologies designed to destroy tanks in this universe. It's like how everything Marine back in 2nd had targeters. The rules need to take such things into account already if we don't want to end up with a few crazily powerful models dominating the game.
I guess some people like that, but I want to see an army on the table myself.
BrianDavion wrote: as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?
Because people were sick of their expensive tanks being slagged by Melta, and thought 'maybe this stuff we put on our flyers so they don't melt in the atmosphere would work against Melta guns'.
I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.
an expensive transport destoyer, can't for the life of me understand why anybody but eldar and dark eldar players should whine over this unit. it is extraordinarily good against skimmers put so what, against monsters and high AV it does nothing, and AP 4 makes it suck against all kinds of marine armies. with a point cost of 135 it should work perfectly fine against its chosen targets.
To the problem of the tanks survivability, why is it a problem, just because you can't melta the thing you should have some str 8 at least, the sicaran can't jink, like most of the vehicles it is god against so when they are shooting at eachother, the sicaran at least have a fair chance. killing a wave serpent or just a normal DE raider with autocannons with the new jink rules are damn near impossible...
Hollismason wrote: I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.
Except you know their whole Heresy range which bar 1 or 2 outliers either side is pretty well balanced.
Hollismason wrote: I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.
Please can you explain why its overpowered as apposed to "strong"? at what point did it go over the power limit?
Edit: Also what are targeters from second edition?
Hollismason wrote: I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.
Ok, so...what exactly makes this thing overpowered?
Likewise, there are lots of "middle ground" FW units. Medusas, Hazard Suits, Relic Predators, Hell Blades, etc.
Poly Ranger wrote: This is coming from an eldar player who can take a tank with AV12 front and side,, fast skimmer, 3+ jink, has a transport cap of 10, and has most of its shots (which are far more than a sicaran) twin linked.
Oh and it can choose to have a 2+ against pens...
AND it doesn't take up any slots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For just 10pts more than a base sicaran.
This is all because there is finally something reliable against serps isnt it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other words no - the serpent is the most d-bag unit ever.
Exalted! LOL!
I'm buyin 1 ... or maybe 3
Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!
Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!
Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!
BrianDavion wrote: as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?
The Sicaran is a very reasonable tank. Do the math on how many turns it still takes one to kill a standard wave serpent. It's really not that impressive. There are some OPFW things. This isn't one.
basicly the Sicaran is a tank optimized for the job of killing eldar tanks. it honestly makes sense given that when the great crusade was launched let's look at what the emperor was expecting to fight. he was proably figuring on fighting weak human resistance, orks and the remains of the eldar. So I suspect from an IC standpoint the Sicaran was literally designed to fight, and defeat, eldar
I have a Sicaran and it's dealt with rapidly every time. It's far from OP. I've had Tau drop in from behind and wreck it. I've had it blown up from across the table. It's died/blown up gloriously on several occasions.
Lobukia wrote: The Sicaran is a very reasonable tank. Do the math on how many turns it still takes one to kill a standard wave serpent. It's really not that impressive. There are some OPFW things. This isn't one.
I was thinking along these lines also, how many Serpents can the Sicaran hope to take out before it gets taken out itself. So a player spamming Serpents loses 1 or 2 before taking out the Sicaran. Not exactly OP in my book.
BrianDavion wrote: Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry...
It is stupid on flyers too. Re-entry is hot, but not melta-hot!
One is a natural phenomenon, the other is a weapon.
faerrrd wrote: Killing a wave serpent or just a normal DE raider with autocannons with the new jink rules are damn near impossible...
Have you ever played against Dark Eldar? Wave Serpents are one thing, but DE Raiders die to everything up to and including autocannons, snipers, bolt pistols, and stiff breezes. Even with Night Shields, it's a 3+ save on a 3HP vehicle with crap armor and open-topped. Without Night Shields it's 4+, and that's a 15 point upgrade. I can't speak for Eldar players, but for DE, jink is literally the only thing standing between your paper-mache boats and your enemy's pistols, for god's sake.
faerrrd wrote: Killing a wave serpent or just a normal DE raider with autocannons with the new jink rules are damn near impossible...
Have you ever played against Dark Eldar? Wave Serpents are one thing, but DE Raiders die to everything up to and including autocannons, snipers, bolt pistols, and stiff breezes. Even with Night Shields, it's a 3+ save on a 3HP vehicle with crap armor and open-topped. Without Night Shields it's 4+, and that's a 15 point upgrade. I can't speak for Eldar players, but for DE, jink is literally the only thing standing between your paper-mache boats and your enemy's pistols, for god's sake.
That and having more of them then your enemies can shoot
faerrrd wrote: Killing a wave serpent or just a normal DE raider with autocannons with the new jink rules are damn near impossible...
Have you ever played against Dark Eldar? Wave Serpents are one thing, but DE Raiders die to everything up to and including autocannons, snipers, bolt pistols, and stiff breezes. Even with Night Shields, it's a 3+ save on a 3HP vehicle with crap armor and open-topped. Without Night Shields it's 4+, and that's a 15 point upgrade. I can't speak for Eldar players, but for DE, jink is literally the only thing standing between your paper-mache boats and your enemy's pistols, for god's sake.
That and having more of them then your enemies can shoot
That certainly doesn't hurt! For bonus points, take the Realspace Raiders detachment and buy as many Raiders as you can, fit them with Shock Prows, and play SUPERSONIC SKIMMER DEMOLITION DERBY
BrianDavion wrote: Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry...
It is stupid on flyers too. Re-entry is hot, but not melta-hot!
One is a natural phenomenon, the other is a weapon.
Technically the sun is a natural phenomenon. Pretty sure it's hotter than a melta.
Either way, I believe Melta is supposedly high power microwave radiation? We already have stuff that protects against that or our innards would boil and kitchen cabinets fall off every time we heated some beans.
So, conclusion is that Wave Serpent is OP (like always ) and the Sicaran is strong? Check. I myself don´t like to spam WS´s (boring) but we don´t have five options like the Marines (Stormraven, Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, and a Land Raider), we have two, and one i haven´t seen in a batrep since the 5th edition (Falcon). I would LOVE to use something else to carry the troops, but unless you ally with the Dark Kin, there´s no solution to this.
Lost Vyper wrote: So, conclusion is that Wave Serpent is OP (like always ) and the Sicaran is strong? Check
That's probably accurate. The Sicaran is expensive, particularly if you include legacies and sponsons and ceramite, as well as having limited/restricted availability. It's highly capable, but has a pricetag to match.
I think when you compared it to the WS the differences become apparent. The Wave Serpent has lower frontal armor, but also has the capability to jink for a 4+ or 3+ cover save even in the open whenever it feels it needs to. It has a wide array of weapons options, some of which are Twin Linked and one of which makes its other weapons Twin Linked, while its serpent shield ignores *all* cover saves, not simply Jink saves. The Wave Serpent is even more mobile, has a large transport capacity, can be taken in very large numbers, and is relatively cheap as a fully kitted Wave Serpent is only a hair above the cost of a naked Sicaran.
The Sicaran has a lot of highly capable firepower, and better frontal armor, but costs significantly more after kit & upgrades, isn't a transport, can only use Smoke Launchers (5+ cover, one-use only, prevents *all* shooting or moving Flat Out) instead of Jink, and taking more than a single Sicaran requires taking a specific, somewhat sub-optimal, HQ unit on top of being a Heavy Support unit instead of being a widely available Dedicated Transport.
We have talked about the future nerfbat (it will come) for the WS in our FLGC. We think that maybe d6 S6 AP6 36" range would be enough, with out the Ignores Cover rule...i think that would stop the Rhino wrecking and people would just cruise around with the shield on...or the "Once in a game" -hammer could come down for the WS...
FeindusMaximus wrote: Not as bad as Wave serpent, invisibility, unbound lists. 5 sternguard in a drop pod will kill it.
Actually they're look stronger than Wave Serpents from an Eldar perspective. They also cost a lot less, you don't have to buy underpowered units to unlock them, they can handle a lot of assault units, AV13, etc.
Sternguard may be worse against WS, but there are at least a dozen units that just wreck WS that cannot handle rear AV12.
In other words, that tank has a lot less weaknesses than WS, plus your comment about Sternguard shows you don't know what Ceramite plating does (it cancels the melta rule).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dark_red wrote: It's a strong unit for the points but side armour 12 and being a big model can make it easy pray. Normally the only people that I've seen refuse to play against it are eldar or dark eldar, I find that quite amusing considering their options (mainly eldar)
That's because all of the Eldar WS durability is just based on cover saves, of which many end up being Jink saves.
And all of the non existant Dark Eldar durability just the same.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Technically the sun is a natural phenomenon. Pretty sure it's hotter than a melta.
Likely depends on what one calls hot. Do we just look at the temperature, or do we also care for thermal inertia? Melta will certainly have a lower total thermal energy, but they may very well have a higher temperature, for all we know.
Anyhow, that is irrelevant. My point was that the melta, contrarily to the re-entry friction, is especially designed to destroy vehicles. So when it was designed, it was obviously made in a way that makes protecting against it as hard as possible.
dark_red wrote: It's a strong unit for the points but side armour 12 and being a big model can make it easy pray. Normally the only people that I've seen refuse to play against it are eldar or dark eldar, I find that quite amusing considering their options (mainly eldar)
That's because all of the Eldar WS durability is just based on cover saves, of which many end up being Jink saves.
And all of the non existant Dark Eldar durability just the same.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Technically the sun is a natural phenomenon. Pretty sure it's hotter than a melta.
Likely depends on what one calls hot. Do we just look at the temperature, or do we also care for thermal inertia? Melta will certainly have a lower total thermal energy, but they may very well have a higher temperature, for all we know.
Anyhow, that is irrelevant. My point was that the melta, contrarily to the re-entry friction, is especially designed to destroy vehicles. So when it was designed, it was obviously made in a way that makes protecting against it as hard as possible.
Keep in mind, armored ceramite doesn't block the melta gun entirely, it just stops the melta bonus pen die. You're still hitting it with a S8 AP1 shot.
dark_red wrote: It's a strong unit for the points but side armour 12 and being a big model can make it easy pray. Normally the only people that I've seen refuse to play against it are eldar or dark eldar, I find that quite amusing considering their options (mainly eldar)
That's because all of the Eldar WS durability is just based on cover saves, of which many end up being Jink saves.
And all of the non existant Dark Eldar durability just the same.
Yeah, 12/12/10 on a transport is just awful.
For a mixed role MBT / Transport at 130+ points, yes it's garbage.
In comparison, the Imperial Guard gets 14/13/11, the Marines get 14/14/14 or 13/12/11 and the Necrons get pseudo 13/13/11.
So how is 12/12/10 any good in an edition where CC resolves against rear armor I wonder.
MARINES GET 14/14/14 FOR 250pts!!! No jink, no fast skimmer (which is a HUGE bonus to it's main battle tank/transport role), no serpent shield, less guns and still dies almost as easily to melta! How are you saying a serp is garbage? HOOOOOWWWWW??????
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guard get 12/10/10 and the other marine transports get 11/11/10. I don't know where you think LRBTs and preds can carry troops from?
dark_red wrote: It's a strong unit for the points but side armour 12 and being a big model can make it easy pray. Normally the only people that I've seen refuse to play against it are eldar or dark eldar, I find that quite amusing considering their options (mainly eldar)
That's because all of the Eldar WS durability is just based on cover saves, of which many end up being Jink saves.
And all of the non existant Dark Eldar durability just the same.
Yeah, 12/12/10 on a transport is just awful.
For a mixed role MBT / Transport at 130+ points, yes it's garbage.
In comparison, the Imperial Guard gets 14/13/11, the Marines get 14/14/14 or 13/12/11 and the Necrons get pseudo 13/13/11.
So how is 12/12/10 any good in an edition where CC resolves against rear armor I wonder.
Spoiler:
The thing the wrongest poster on Dakka is most wrong about. Silly me for even bothering.
Every turn a Sicaran has a 2.8% chance to destroy a WS and will take two turns to glance it to death. But after you've taken a hull point or two from the first round of shooting, you can put your WS in cover, you know. If you only took 1 hull point, it should take another 2 rounds of firing for the WS to die if its user uses just intervening cover to stay alive.
So in one game, if the Eldar player doesn't want to ever hide in cover, the Sicaran (if never fired at) will destroy 2 WS by turn 6.
At the same cost, if it can get to side armour, the a WS will also destroy 2 Sicarans by turn 6... and even more if it gets into 24" range (which for a fast skimmer, isn't that tough). Two WS working together, should be able to kill a Sicaran before it gets even one of them.
So thats a DT running almost even with an almost unique Heavy Tank at roughly the same cost. If someone starts to dump upgrades into the Sicaran to make it stronger, that makes it only barely more durable and really doesn't increase its ability to kill the WS by much at all.
Against a Hammerhead, Leman Russ, or even a LC Predator the Sicaran (at the same cost) will kill them as quickly as they can kill it (so whoever fires first will win). Not sure how something that is basically on par at cost is so OP. Its only strength is that is puts WS on a closer to a fair footing, and I will concede, it reaps tears from DE (but don't they actually enjoy that anyway?).
If making an OP spammable unit have to function (briefly) at the same level as all other similar cost and stated units makes the a vehicle seem OP... I think that speaks to the silly OP nature of the Eldar codex, not the relative strength of the Sicaran
Lobukia wrote: Every turn a Sicaran has a 2.8% chance to destroy a WS and will take two turns to glance it to death. But after you've taken a hull point or two from the first round of shooting, you can put your WS in cover, you know. If you only took 1 hull point, it should take another 2 rounds of firing for the WS to die if its user uses just intervening cover to stay alive.
So in one game, if the Eldar player doesn't want to ever hide in cover, the Sicaran (if never fired at) will destroy 2 WS by turn 6.
At the same cost, if it can get to side armour, the a WS will also destroy 2 Sicarans by turn 6... and even more if it gets into 24" range (which for a fast skimmer, isn't that tough). Two WS working together, should be able to kill a Sicaran before it gets even one of them.
So thats a DT running almost even with an almost unique Heavy Tank at roughly the same cost. If someone starts to dump upgrades into the Sicaran to make it stronger, that makes it only barely more durable and really doesn't increase its ability to kill the WS by much at all.
Against a Hammerhead, Leman Russ, or even a LC Predator the Sicaran (at the same cost) will kill them as quickly as they can kill it (so whoever fires first will win). Not sure how something that is basically on par at cost is so OP. Its only strength is that is puts WS on a closer to a fair footing, and I will concede, it reaps tears from DE (but don't they actually enjoy that anyway?).
If making an OP spammable unit have to function (briefly) at the same level as all other similar cost and stated units makes the a vehicle seem OP... I think that speaks to the silly OP nature of the Eldar codex, not the relative strength of the Sicaran
Well you just proved that the Sicaran is indeed excellent against Wave Serpents.
To begin, Wave Serpents are only really effective when they're spammed, so they don't get that much cover and the most you can really expect is 5+. Believe me, when you have 6+ WS on the table, you start to accept that you will not get cover.
It is NOT the same cost, you can get a Sicaran without buying any troops, and in anything unbound or Apocalypse, that means the Sicaran is a lot more brutal.
The cost is not comparable at all, and yes the Sicaran doesn't work better with upgrades.
Against anything that the Wave Serpent can't do gak against, the Sicaran will still be effective where the Wave Serpent is useless.
On top of that, you have armor 12 rear making you immune to S5- assaults, the bane of the Wave Serpent.
So in a nutshell, you have a tank that is cheaper, just as spammable in the conditions where a Sicaran would be allowed (i.e. relaxed army list building restrictions) and a lot more resilient.
Because in reality it's almost impossible to hit the side of a tank against a competent opponent.
And once more, the only real point making the Wave Serpent OP is its spammability within a CAD format.
That alone does not make a unit OP, it makes it OP in a specific format, which is why the Sicaran is certainly not worse than a Wave Serpent.
And that's why Eldar and Dark Eldar players feel that the Sicaran is ridiculously strong.
Because it is against Eldar and Dark Eldar.
Azreal13 wrote: Are you factoring in sponsons and the hull HB (if relevant) or just the autocannon?
Str 5 weapons can't hurt armor 12 and if I put LCs on it, its more expensive by comparison. But even with the LC the Sicaran will only just do two points a turn to a WC not in cover... guess the eldar have to play like the rest of us.
Morgoth, if for some reason a competent Eldar player CAN'T find cover (lol) and the competent SM player CAN keep his side armor protected (whatever)... use your own WS for cover. Have the one that took the hit first round fall back behind another fast skimmer... kinda 40k 101.
I've never seen anything other than CAD or tournament style play in any of the clubs or FLGS's around here. My apologies if you play a ton of unbound. Go grab a Lynx then.
Lobukia wrote: Str 5 weapons can't hurt armor 12 and if I put LCs on it, its more expensive by comparison. But even with the LC the Sicaran will only just do two points a turn to a WC not in cover... guess the eldar have to play like the rest of us.
That's precisely what I pointed out: Sicarans are a lot more resilient than Wave Serpents against a variety of threats.
And they have more firepower in many cases as well: 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6 always twin-linked (not most of the time, like the WS) is a LOT better against anything AV12+ and planes.
At 1400 points, you can field 10 Sicarans, or 7 Wave Serpents with DA. Care to guess who wins ?
Lobukia wrote: Str 5 weapons can't hurt armor 12 and if I put LCs on it, its more expensive by comparison. But even with the LC the Sicaran will only just do two points a turn to a WC not in cover... guess the eldar have to play like the rest of us.
That's precisely what I pointed out: Sicarans are a lot more resilient than Wave Serpents against a variety of threats.
And they have more firepower in many cases as well: 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6 always twin-linked (not most of the time, like the WS) is a LOT better against anything AV12+ and planes.
At 1400 points, you can field 10 Sicarans, or 7 Wave Serpents with DA. Care to guess who wins ?
So Orks are OP because at 1400 points boys will kill Honour Guard or IG is OP because at 1400 points veterans will kill Tacticals or any other silly pointless comparison in a vacuum? I'm sorry your incredibly powerful codex with psudo-rending, extra movement, MBT DTs, extra kill MCs, psykers and cheap troops on jetbikes, and a billion other tricks had one of its many OP units brought down to a reasonable level when facing off against ONE specific unit that in the vast majority of games it will only face one of. Guess you have to push the easy button twice now to win against marines.
Lobukia wrote: Str 5 weapons can't hurt armor 12 and if I put LCs on it, its more expensive by comparison. But even with the LC the Sicaran will only just do two points a turn to a WC not in cover... guess the eldar have to play like the rest of us.
That's precisely what I pointed out: Sicarans are a lot more resilient than Wave Serpents against a variety of threats.
And they have more firepower in many cases as well: 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6 always twin-linked (not most of the time, like the WS) is a LOT better against anything AV12+ and planes.
At 1400 points, you can field 10 Sicarans, or 7 Wave Serpents with DA. Care to guess who wins ?
So Orks are OP because at 1400 points boys will kill Honour Guard or IG is OP because at 1400 points veterans will kill Tacticals or any other silly pointless comparison in a vacuum? I'm sorry your incredibly powerful codex with psudo-rending, extra movement, MBT DTs, extra kill MCs, psykers and cheap troops on jetbikes, and a billion other tricks had one of its many OP units brought down to a reasonable level when facing off against ONE specific unit that in the vast majority of games it will only face one of. Guess you have to push the easy button twice now to win against marines.
lol. The Sicaran is the easy button against Eldar, that's all the OP question was about and as an Eldar, I confirm that it's one of the scariest enemy units out there.
But hey, keep on thinking Eldar is OP, it's not like the meta is shifting and things are changing and combos are disappearing one by one.
I've never seen anyone saying the wave serpent is not over powered, and then going as far as saying it's not good for its points.. Come on morgoth, the WS is ridiculous! It's not just its spammability, it has too much of everything (survivability, mobility, shooting) for its cost. There is a reason it's widely regarded as broken, it's not just one persons opinion. Debating that is just meaningless.
Also, you cannot base an opinion of being undercosted on the case of 1 vs 1, in your case specifically comparing it to a Serpent. In the case of a MBT you have to look at survivability and killability, and for its cost I'd say its pretty balanced, but on the good side of effectiveness/cost against most armies. It just happens to be a very good match against WS, just the same way Blastmasters are vs SM Bikes and the way every weapon has its optimum enemy. But even vs the Serpent it will not be that effective which says something..
Anyone talking about ceramite plating can remember that the Sicaran is close to 200 pts with that (and lascannon sponsons which anyone using it as antitank will take), and over if you want to take the legacies/schism things. A tank at around 200pts with 13/12/12 is NOT stupidly hard to kill - come on even without the second melta dice you can kill it. You CAN also play the Sicaran without those upgrades. Come on, if you have trouble killing that how can you deal with Russes (which have higher AV and are cheaper)?
Serpents on the other hand are way less points and (for weapons that do not ignore jink) way harder to kill. Stupid comparison.
I find it almost provoking/humouristic that it is Eldar players of all people that are complaining. Given that they have several more OP choices and generally access to both Lance and Haywire weapons both of which make short work of the Sicaran. So I will regard any Eldar player actually complaining as just trolling.
The Wave Serpent is excellent for its points cost.
It's just that when facing Wave Serpents, Sicarans are extremely good.
And they cost 140 points, they don't need the upgrades or less powerful selections to be fielded.
Point being: the Sicaran is fine but really tailored to Please find a better way to express yourself. Reds8n Eldar Skimmers, which is why the OP had the impression that it was broken.
Eldar and Dark Eldar players have just as many reasons to call the Sicaran OP as the other races have reasons to call the WSOP.
You said above that the wave serpent was garbage.
The waveserpent is OP against everyone (it's just as good at taking out serpents than the sicaran), the sicaran only seems OP against the two types of eldar. This means it is not OP in the context of the game as a whole, therefore it is not a unit which can be labelled OP.
Flamers are extremely good against guardsmen, would a guard player call them OP?
Lances are extremely good against AV14, would a LR spam player label them OP?
Poison/snipers are extremely good against MCs, would a nid player label it OP?
Just because a unit is a counter to a persons list does not mean that that person can legitimately call it OP.
Poly Ranger wrote: You said above that the wave serpent was garbage.
The waveserpent is OP against everyone (it's just as good at taking out serpents than the sicaran), the sicaran only seems OP against the two types of eldar. This means it is not OP in the context of the game as a whole, therefore it is not a unit which can be labelled OP.
Flamers are extremely good against guardsmen, would a guard player call them OP?
Lances are extremely good against AV14, would a LR spam player label them OP?
Poison/snipers are extremely good against MCs, would a nid player label it OP?
Just because a unit is a counter to a persons list does not mean that that person can legitimately call it OP.
Then quote it if I said it, mr make-up-gak-because-who-cares.
I see your point. But I don't think anything can be called OP on account of being good against one choice/one army. The Sicaran will usually be worth it vs Eldar, but its strength is situational.The WS in comparison, is good against everything.
and always worth its points.
And they cost 140 points, they don't need the upgrades or less powerful selections to be fielded.
I can't really see it being useful without sponsons, and no-one plays it that way, so comparing its base cost is lacking. It will statistically need 2 turns of shooting at a WS to kill it without sponsons, which it won't get if the opponent is trying to destroy it. With sponsons and a bit of luck vs Jink you CAN kill a WS in one turn, which is what it needs to do. At least it might force the Eldar player to actually Jink, which a naked Sicaran won't.
For a mixed role MBT / Transport at 130+ points, yes it's garbage.
In comparison, the Imperial Guard gets 14/13/11, the Marines get 14/14/14 or 13/12/11 and the Necrons get pseudo 13/13/11.
So how is 12/12/10 any good in an edition where CC resolves against rear armor I wonder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You also failed to respond to my comment which stated that IG transports are actually 12/10/10, SM transports are 11/11/10 or 250pts for 14/14/14 without jink, fast skimmer, serp shield and having less shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also that I was curious why you thought mentioning LRBT and Pred armour was relevant when talking about a tabk with a transport/shooting roll.
But that's exactly what people do with everything they call OP.
They call Wave Serpents OP because they were situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.
Wave Serpents aren't good against everything, they're horrible against MEQ, assault, drop pods, AV12 flyers, cheap troops, cheap transports (a WS will take four turns of shooting 35 point transports to make its cost back, 6+ if you have to make the contents' cost back on top of it).
The Sicaran is point for point very comparable to the Wave Serpent in most use cases for the Wave Serpent, and outright better in some of these, including AV13 and AV11+ flyers.
Just think that for the price of a Wave Serpent (+ enabler), you get 9 twin linked S7AP4 at 48" Rending Jink Ignoring shots and 4.5HP on AV13/12/12 platform.
I would think that's a most favorable comparison against 4S6AP6 and 4.5 S7AP- at 36" with Ignores Cover (which is arguably better than just ignore jink) on an AV12/12/10 platform which has the option to generate 4+ cover anywhere by losing 66% of its firepower for one turn.
It is 6 shots and 3hps. Don't know where you're getting x1.5 from when they are the same price.
I really don't understand your comparisons at all in fact. Where on earth are you pulling those numbers from?
I think its pretty poor compared to 259 st10 ap1 7" ignores cover, twinlinked, primary weapon, tank hunting, rending, haywire shots myself, especially 1's that ignore invulns and auto win on a rerollable to hit roll of 1.
How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model. More importantly while the Sicaran is a good unit, it is no where near broken. It does make things with Jink cry, and that is just fine by me.
But that's exactly what people do with everything they call OP.
They call Wave Serpents OP because they were situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.
Wave Serpents aren't good against everything, they're horrible against MEQ, assault, drop pods, AV12 flyers, cheap troops, cheap transports (a WS will take four turns of shooting 35 point transports to make its cost back, 6+ if you have to make the contents' cost back on top of it).
The Sicaran is point for point very comparable to the Wave Serpent in most use cases for the Wave Serpent, and outright better in some of these, including AV13 and AV11+ flyers. Just think that for the price of a Wave Serpent (+ enabler), you get 9 twin linked S7AP4 at 48" Rending Jink Ignoring shots and 4.5HP on AV13/12/12 platform. I would think that's a most favorable comparison against 4S6AP6 and 4.5 S7AP- at 36" with Ignores Cover (which is arguably better than just ignore jink) on an AV12/12/10 platform which has the option to generate 4+ cover anywhere by losing 66% of its firepower for one turn.
Wait Situationally better?
When is it situationally worse? Against ANYTHING Weight of high strength fire is good. and the WS has that in spades. (ok besides AV14 landraiders which basically no one runs)
Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.
Piroko wrote: How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model.
One vehicle per 1,000 points can take a Legacy, and you can have multiple on each vehicle (but each Legacy can only be used once). Mars gives Tank Hunters and a 50/50 chance of ignoring Haywire, while Sarosh lets you use either Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters or Night Vision once.
Piroko wrote: How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model.
One vehicle per 1,000 points can take a Legacy, and you can have multiple on each vehicle (but each Legacy can only be used once). Mars gives Tank Hunters and a 50/50 chance of ignoring Haywire, while Sarosh lets you use either Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters or Night Vision once.
(Edited for clarity)
I was about to say that he was having you on as they can only have 1 each. I then went to look at IA:2 for the quote in 'purchasing legacies of glory'... and it's not there. There is, to my surprise, nothing disallowing multiple legacies of glory on one vehicle. Unless it is somewhere else in IA:2.
However sarosh and mars both grant tank hunter so that's a bit of a wasted combination.
You have now got me thinking about combinations though...
Off topic, but it's not acceptable language in the UK - people have lost their jobs for using phrases like that.
(and yes, I do know it also can mean "The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place" but it's loaded word)
To be fair, although I'm not a fan of over political correctness, I would be disciplined if I used the word 'rape' to describe something to my pupils that was not actually rape.
Agreed. I hate when people use the word rape trivially like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: To be fair, although I'm not a fan of over political correctness, I would be disciplined if I used the word 'rape' to describe something to my pupils that was not actually rape.
It's not even really over PC. It's a sensitive topic and the word gets thrown around like its nothing.
Well its very commonly used over here and does not apply to only men and women so get over it. As overly politically correct and stupid we have gotten with sensitivity, no one will lose their jobs here for using it.
Morgoth- very few people play unbound and in apoc with titans running around, 10 Sicarans really do not matter too much in the scheme of things. So the most you will ever see is three and that cuts into heavy slots. In a Legion list it competes with other very good options for those slots. I don't know what it competes with in the chaos codex but I am sure there are options. I'll take a Fire Raptor any day of the week over a Sicaran for almost the same cost as what I use them at.
Agreed, I'm not easily offended, not by a long chalk, no one will ever know how much I moderate my language when posting compared to how I would talk in similar situations in real life, but, IME people who use rape in this context are generally boys (regardless of actual age) who lack the maturity and experience to truly appreciate the impact that the act they're describing can have on people.
It's a dreadful term for a dreadful act that has no place in this or any other civilised discussion.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Keep in mind, armored ceramite doesn't block the melta gun entirely, it just stops the melta bonus pen die. You're still hitting it with a S8 AP1 shot.
The sicarian essentially has a twin linked ignore jink heavy psycannon with 48 inch range. Trust me...this is hands down the best weapon in the game currently for the price.
It wrecks eldar
It wrecks all infantry
it wrecks flyers
Can hurt anything in the game...
Essentially it's good vs every army...it's not situationaly bad vs anything.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Keep in mind, armored ceramite doesn't block the melta gun entirely, it just stops the melta bonus pen die. You're still hitting it with a S8 AP1 shot.
Meaning you need a 6 to pen…
Only if you're in the front arc, and considering how close you've got to be for melta anyway, if you're not in side arc by the time you're in range, you've probably got something wrong.
It is not. Either we tell you, or we just click the yellow triangle of friendship and let the mods tell you, which might imply some sanctions. As you decide.
The wave serpent has a weapon that whilst not having rending, ignores ALL cover, is going to be tl also, will on average have 1 less shot at 60" range. It is debatable which is better as a weapon. When you also factor in all the other advantages of the WS, it is pretty clear which is better.
As to the weapon itself (I am counting the extended range to be as good as the extra shot on average):
Serp shield is as effective against skimmers (more so if they are in cover)
Serp shield is more effective against 4+ or worse infantry in cover.
Serp shield is better against av12 and lower in cover
Serp shield is as good against flyers
Serp shield is worse against av13 and 14.
Serp shield is slightly worse against meq and teq in the open.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the best weapon in the game for its points? Typhon. Hands down. And I mean the whole ruddy tank lol!
7" st10 ap1 primary weapon ignores cover blast
OR +1 on the thunderblitz table.
With ceremite for 20pts...
That
Is
Crazy
For 370pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can get TWO (without ceremite) for the cost of a Greater Brass Scorpion! That's astounding!
Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.
Run the mathhammer, then come back.
Your opinion is not very interesting to read if you didn't even go through the necessary research before forming it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Sicaran is cool. I just wish the model were symmetrical.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
So now it matters how things are listed ?
I thought we were considering the balance of these things.
If you did the math, you know that the Wave Serpent is not points efficient against a wide range of targets, including flyers, MEQ, TEQ and really just good against T6 3+SvMcs, AV11 and barely usable against AV13.
The only "tanks" it's good at taking out are AV12-, or in other words, transports and light tanks, not actual MBTs.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
So now it matters how things are listed ?
If one unit is described as an MBT, and is put in the FoC section where MBT's are usually put, and another unit is not described in its fluff as an MBT and isn't in the MBT section of the FoC, we should probably assume the latter is not an MBT and should not be superior in most roles to the unit that's described as an MBT.
I thought we were considering the balance of these things.
If you did the math, you know that the Wave Serpent is not points efficient against a wide range of targets, including flyers, MEQ, TEQ and really just good against T6 3+SvMcs, AV11 and barely usable against AV13.
The only "tanks" it's good at taking out are AV12-, or in other words, transports and light tanks, not actual MBTs.
It's not great against AV13, but it's not terrible either (particularly once you start comparing it to other tanks), and against lighter vehicles it's absurdly overcapable. It's also actually rather effective at killing even MEQ's, is very good at engaging T6 3+svMC's. The kicker is that it's capable against *ALL* of these targets. It's astoundingly versatile.
For reference, lets take an *ACTUAL* battle tank, a Leman Russ Exterminator with 3 heavy bolters costing 150pts against the same unit
Spoiler:
So with a Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shield Cannon we've got a total of 7.55 average hits. Against T4 3+sv infantry (Marines) we get 2.1 dead per turn.
Now for the LRE
4 autocannon shots *(1/2)=2 hits
Twin Linked rerolls
((1/2)*4 autocannon shots *(1/2))=1 hit
Total Autocannon hits=3
Then we add the 3 heavy bolters
9*(1/2)=4.5 hits
On average, against that same T4 3+sv infantry unit=1.8333
So a relatively barebones 120pt Wave Serpent dedicated transport is putting out more hurt on a T4 3+sv unit than a 150pt Leman Russ Exterminator.
This is also discounting any Shuriken Catapults or Shuriken Cannons the Wave Serpent may also have.
If we add in a Shuriken Cannon, we get 3.28 average dead marines, an 80%% increase over that Leman Russ Exterminator, for fewer points.
Leman Russ Battle Tank relative to Wave Serpent
Spoiler:
It's harder to quantify blast weapons, but lets assume the following.
On average, you'll get 0.416 dead on hits per shot (0.33+0.0833 for BS3 scatter reduction) and effectively will get 0.611 hits on the original model between BS3 scatter reduction and a 5" blast (0.33 dead on, 2.5" blast radius means a full scatter of up to 6" will still hit with BS3 scatter reduction, so the 2/3rds of the time it scatters, 15 of 36 will still hit the original target, so we get an avearge ot 0.2777 hits from that to add to the original 0.33 no-scatter hits).
So assuming that, on average, the blast will miss the original target 0.389 times per shot. Roughly midway between BS3 and BS4.
OK, so we've got our barebones 150pt Leman Russ tank. We've got our assumption that on average, we'll get 0.416 dead on hits and 0.611 shots that will still hit the originally targeted model.
Now, cover, I'll go through this and provide examples for no cover, 5+ cover, and 4+ cover.
Our targets will be the original comparison of a MEQ unit and a T6 3+svMC. We'll also compare against an AV11, AV12, and AV13 targets.
Now, We've got a basic LRBT at 150pts base.
All sound reasonable? Sweet, lets go.
Leman Russ Battle Tank against MEQ unit in the open.
Now, lets make some assumptions about our target. We'll assume they're not patsy-bunched in a tight clump perfectly suited to a large blast weapon. Lets assume any direct hit will hit 5, and any scatter that still hits the original model (so scatter of 4"/5"/6" before BS subtraction) will hit 2.5 models of the original target unit, we'll assume scatter up to 8" (before BS correction) will hit 1 model, and anything beyond that will miss. Sound Reasonable? OK.
So, using the expected hits at the varying scatter distance above, Here's the math I'm going to follow.
.416 dead on hits X 5 models=2.08
.222 that still hit the original model X 2.5 models=0.555
.203 that still hit at least 1 model=.203
Anything beyond that is zero.
Lets total these. 2.08+0.555+0.203=2.838 hits on average from a BS3 Battlecannon.
Now lets wound. 2.838*5/6 chance to wound=2.365 dead marines.
Lets add in a snapfiring heavy bolter just for kicks
3*(1/6)*(2/3)*(1/3)=.111
So, in total, we get 2.476 dead marines on average assuming *no* cover.
Against marines in 5+ cover
(2/3)*(2.365)=1.57 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.681 dead marines in 5+ cover
Against marines in 4+
(1/2)*(2.365)=1.183 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.294 dead marines in 4+ cover
Now lets look at a T6 3+svMC. We'll be generous here and assume they're on the big oval base, and we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.
So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot. We get 5/6 wounds per hit. We get a total of 0.602 average wounds from the battlecannon and 0.055 from the snap firing heavy bolter, for a total of 0.657 average wounds against a T6 3+svMC in the open
Against a T6 3+svMC in 5+ cover, we get 0.456 wounds
Against a T6 3+svMC in 4+ cover, we get 0.356 wounds.
Now lets look at an AV11 vehicle. For vehicles, we can simplify this, once against we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.
So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot.
Now, against AV11, we need a 3 or better to inflict an HP loss (can't explode), and we get 2d6 pick-the-highest. This means we inflict the loss of an HP 32/36 times, or 8/9 times (0.888)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.642 HP's off an AV11 vehicle in the open,0 .428 against an AV11 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.321 HP's against an AV11 vehicle with 4+ cover. Add in the Heavy Bolter and that's 0.723, 0.511, and 0.404 HP's respectively.
Against AV 12 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 27/36 times or 3/4 (0.75)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.542 HP's off an AV12 vehicle in the open, 0.361 against an AV12 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.271 HP's against an AV12 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.
Against AV 13 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 20/36 times or 5/9 (0.55)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.401 HP's off an AV13 vehicle in the open, 0.267 against an AV13 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.200 HP's against an AV13 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.
So, lets look at your math now. Relatively cheap Wave Serpent with just Scatterlaser and Shield, we'll discount any other weapons or common wargear like Holofields, and say its 120pts versus our 150pt dedicated MEQ killing MBT.
Assuming no cover
Wave Serpent against Space Marines=2.1 Dead Space Marines
Wave Serpent against T6 3+svMC=1.48 wounds
Wave Serpent against AV11=1.92 HP's inflicted
Wave Serpent against AV13=0.663 HP's inflicted
LRBT against Space Marines=2.476 dead Space Marines
LRBT against T6 3+svMC=0.657 wounds
LRBT against AV11=0.723 HPs inflicted
LRBT against AV13=.401 HP's inflicted
Lets go through the math with the Razorback, since its the most similar in role, availability, and weapons capabilities.
For comparison, we'll use two of them (150pts) against a Wave Serpent armed with Scatterlaser and a Shuriken Cannon (130pts)
Spoiler:
Two Assault Cannon Razorbacks against Marines
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=1.185
Now add rerolls
8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.395
Thus, against Marines in the Open we get 2.76 dead marines on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.84
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.38
Lets try it now against a T6 3+svMC
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.59
Now add rerolls
8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.198
Thus, against a T6 3+svMC in the Open we get 1.97 wounds on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.312
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to .984
Against an AV11 vehicle (note: Rending will have zero effect here)
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3) = 1.77 HP's
Now add rerolls
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.59HP's
Thus against AV11 in the Open we get 2.36 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.57 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.18 HP's.
Against an AV13 vehicle (note: Rending will be the only way to harm AV13, any Rend however will inflict an HP)
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6) = 0.89 HP's
Now add rerolls
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.29HP's
Thus against AV13 in the Open we get 1.17 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 0.76 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 0.59 HP's.
Now lets use the Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Serpent Shield, and Shuriken Cannon
Against Marines in the Open
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.74
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.833
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.44
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.25
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.28
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.15
Thus against Marines in the Open we get 3.133 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.99 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.913 wounds.
Against a T6 3+svMC
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.44
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.67
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.22
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.148
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.22
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.074
Thus against a T6 3+svMC in the open we get 2.21 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.07 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 1.99 wounds.
Now against AV11
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.88 HP's
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/2)= 1.5 HP's
Shuriken Cannon (Bladestorm does nothing)
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.67 HP's
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)= 0.29 HP's
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2)= 0.5 HP's
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)=0.22 HP's
So against an AV11 vehicle in the open we get 4.06 HP's
Against a 5+ cover save that goes down to 3.37 HP's
Against a 4+ cover save that goes down to 3.03 HP's
Now lets look at AV13
Only the Serpent Shield will be relevant here, but we'll assume the Scatterlaser is used and hits (averaging 3.55 hits out of 4 shots with BS4 and rerolls) for Laserlock to go off to Twin Link the Serpent Shield
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/6)= 0.5 HP's
Now add in rerolls
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6)= 0.17 HP's
Thus against AV13 we get 0.67 HP's, regardless of any Cover (as the shield ignores it)
So, lets look at the results. We've got *two* Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks at 150pts. We've got *one* Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon at 130pts.
Against a Marine unit, the single Wave Serpent is superior in every category, and its lead becomes increasingly commanding as cover becomes involved.
Against a T6 3+sv Monstrous Creature, we see the same result, the Wave Serpent is clearly superior in each category and becomes every more superior the more cover is involved, putting out twice the wound rate when 4+ cover is present.
Against AV11 we see the exact same pattern, only moreso, and with 4+ cover involved the Wave Serpent is creeping up to 3x the HP output.
It's only against AV13 that the Razorbacks see any sort of advantage, being rather clearly superior against AV13 in the open, but once again, as cover comes into play, dramatically decreasing in effectiveness as cover comes into play, only holding a 13% increase in effectiveness when 5+ cover is in play and finally being overtaken by the Wave Serpent when 4+ cover is in play.
Lets also not that at any ranges beyond 24", the Razorbacks are incapable of doing anything, while the Wave Serpent only loses the Shuriken Cannon, and can hit out to 60" with the Serpent Shield.
So again, the Wave Serpent is dramatically superior against a wider array of units than the two other transports combined, which also sport dramatically shorter overall ranges, that together cost more than the Wave Serpent, only have AV11 instead of AV12, only equal transport capacity between them, no Jink, no ignoring terrain, and no Fast movement.
If you want a comparison to something else, I can do it. Ultimately, the Wave Serpent isn't actually bad, or as bad, against what you say its bad against. It's surprisingly versatile.
Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.
Run the mathhammer, then come back.
Your opinion is not very interesting to read if you didn't even go through the necessary research before forming it.
Sighduck.
Single WS: MEQ > 4 scatter and on average 4 SS, Scatter will hit 3.5 times each with TL, Same with SS, Causing about 6 total wounds. 2dead marines or 1 dead terminator a turn at 36" range plus. not including the guys inside, not including the shuriken
Drop pod Anti tank, you need a minimum of 6 glances or pens to get through 4+ jink, even better with holo. with only a 1/6 chance to fail pen reduction.
You are also now in Dakka range of all da sudo rending guns even if you jink your WS
Bharring wrote: So, to summarize this entire thread, "Suck it, Xenos! You deserve it for Eldar having the OP serpent!"?
I wouldn't say that. I'd say it's more "It *is* powerful, but cost's a lot, here's how it stacks up relative to a much cheaper and broadly similarly powerful Wave Serpent".
Poly Ranger wrote: Ironically Vaktati just did the maths for him... rather extensively.
So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?
Are you proposing Wave Serpents are better main-battle tanks than Sicarans or are you just trying to stir the pot?
The Wave Serpent is too good at being a MBT for its price. And what Morgoth has been saying is that the WS isn't that good against a bunch of things (even though it is pretty good against them) and Mozzyfuzzy was just saying why should it be, when it's meant to be a transport anyway, not a MBT.
Summarizing the thread, it's easy to read that generally there is a concencus that the Sicaran is strong. It is good against most targets, reasonably survivable and vs some targets (those that Jink and have AV<=12) it is very strong. It also however costs points to reflect this meaning it's not perceived as OP or broken. Specially since in real life people always take at least sponsons on it so its base cost is theoretical. You will not be considered a d-bag for fielding one.
Moving on, then there are several pages more discussion (or monologue..) on the Wave Serpent, which is still perceived as Overpowered/undercosted/broken by everyone in this thread except one person. Who also used the word "garbage" to describe it, and claims its power is/was "situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.".
And the general comparison between the WS and the Sicaran in this thread is still comparing apples and pears by only looking at point for point survivability/killability, and not even taking into account that the WS also is more mobile, fulfilling a transport role quite well, does not take up a FOC slot and can get Objective Secured. One is also spammable while the other one really is not (not counting Unbound). So the comparison is not particularly relevant.
Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion.
My own personal reflection - I play both Eldar and CSM and would not field a Wave Serpent at all as people get a funny look in their faces and start mumbling about it, which is no fun for either side. I play Falcons instead. I however have no issue fielding a Sicaran.
So again, why should a hybrid tank, be better at the role of MBT, than a tank that IS a MBT?
Are you proposing Wave Serpents are better main-battle tanks than Sicarans or are you just trying to stir the pot?
The Wave Serpent is too good at being a MBT for its price. And what Morgoth has been saying is that the WS isn't that good against a bunch of things (even though it is pretty good against them) and Mozzyfuzzy was just saying why should it be, when it's meant to be a transport anyway, not a MBT.
Pretty much this, the general feel from what I got, is that Morgoth isn't happy with either the firepower or the durablilty of the WS for a 130pt +tax investment, in comparison to as I recall "IG's 14-13-11, SM's 14-14-14 or 13-12-11" Which other than the land raider, are all MBTs so the conclusion I drew from Morgoths argument was that the WS needed to be better at the job of MBT.
Wave serpent is better as a battle tank than a Leman Russ battle tank. They should be swapped names not to confuse people. Wave Battle Tank and Russ Serpent.
There is nothing wrong with the Sicarian and anyone who thinks it's overpowered clearly either has nothing in the army to deal with vehicles or is a good old fashioned FW hater. Forgeworld overall makes more balanced units and over costed units then GW books and have played against and fielded 2 and both times were proved not invincible.
Drasius wrote: Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?
Forge World units aren't universally overpowered so I don't get your 'what do you expect from FW' comment.
No, they aren't. Just the ones people ACTUALLY buy and use. Because they are looking for strictly better versions of things. Using things like forgeworld death korps of krieg to represent guard is fine. Crap like this is why people are switching games left and right. That and GW's insane policies lately.
I realize I'm a little late to the party in this thread, but are are the Death Korps considered broken now? o.O
I can see how some armies / lists could have trouble with them (particularly blob orks), but I've never heard of them being a power-player in any big lists by any means.
They're not overpowered just another typical FW hater who probably never changes his list or tactics and gets mad when he has to fight something he's never played against.
The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.
Because siciran really helps me when I face 3 knight formation with invisibility, 5 knights, 3 wraithlords+ 5 talos etc. yea. It's auto win button,LOL While it's a nice tank, it's completely useless when people start to bring other nasty stuff to the table. If everyone was making nice fluffy lists, then it would be good tank, as it is in tournament meta, he's useless like the rest of marine vehichles, because you simply can't compete with knight,monstrous creatures etc. who can simply 1 shot you, or enter a combat and again, 1 shot you,lol
welshhoppo wrote: The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.
welshhoppo wrote: The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.
Can you quote this rule please?
I mean... It's the one Special Rule it has. Relics of the Armoury. One may be chosen normally but more than one means a 'Keeper of the Relics' HQ must be chosen.
welshhoppo wrote: The Sicarian is very good at what it does. But remember, that unless you bring a unit that allows a second relic you can only field one. In addition, it is rather niche, and it isn't very multi-purpose. Against heavy armour it isn't very good.
Can you quote this rule please?
Relics of the Armoury special rule
The relevant part being
However, if more than one model with this rule is taken in the Primary Detachment, it must also include a Keeper of Relics purchased as an HQ choice.
The Keeper of Relics being a Master of the Forge for C:SM, Interrogator-Chaplain for DA, and are technically impossible for BA and SW to have as they refer to models that no longer exist or can no longer meet the requirements to be a Keeper of Relics (Reclusiarch and Rune Priest with Saga of the Beast Slayer).
You need a Keeper of the Relics to use anything with Relics of the Armoury in a secondary detachment at all. (not just more than 1)
It's in IA13 (and presumably the loyalist equivalent) - pg 191.
Only one "Relic" can only be fielded in single in a primary detachment, unless you have the respective Technomancer HQ (Abaddon, a Warpsmith or a Malefic Daemonolgy sorcerer for Chaos, don't have the other book.)
If you field a relic as an ally, then the compulsory HQ for an allied detachment must be a Technomancer.
This covers most of the juicy units, including some Land Raiders, the Sicaran, several of the fliers etc..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, devilfish and I synced up nicely!
Got it, but in IA13 it limits you to only one upgrade like thing per unit, right?
But in the SM one you are limited to the one Relic, but not to only one battle honor (or whatever its called) on that Relic.
Is that correct? We share books in our club and I don't have this one in hand at the moment. I'm just checking to see if there is the difference that I remember there being.
Actually, its 13/12/12 and you do know you can only take 1? I think it's mainly used to counteract wave serpent spamming (which honestly is a much bigger dick move). I use one of these for my Blood Angels and I think the highlight of it was when I played it against my friend's CSM. At the time, he was running a defiler and 2 forgefiends. You should have seen the look on his face when he found out that with schism of Mars, I was BS5 against his daemon engines along with having tank hunter. However, this thing is pretty weak to Khorne terminators with power fists (as I later found out )
. Aside from that one can only have one of them in a non Heresy army since it's a relic of the armory whcih are limited to one 
hits. We have banned Invisibility from our games, it´s just easier (more fun) that way. It´s too bad, there´s no Tau -player in our FLGC, i would like to face some Riptides. I have seen them in action and they can be tough, with that 2+/5++/
