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2015/02/05 16:37:19
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Poly Ranger wrote: You said above that the wave serpent was garbage.
The waveserpent is OP against everyone (it's just as good at taking out serpents than the sicaran), the sicaran only seems OP against the two types of eldar. This means it is not OP in the context of the game as a whole, therefore it is not a unit which can be labelled OP.
Flamers are extremely good against guardsmen, would a guard player call them OP?
Lances are extremely good against AV14, would a LR spam player label them OP?
Poison/snipers are extremely good against MCs, would a nid player label it OP?
Just because a unit is a counter to a persons list does not mean that that person can legitimately call it OP.
Then quote it if I said it, mr make-up-gak-because-who-cares.
2015/02/05 16:40:27
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
I see your point. But I don't think anything can be called OP on account of being good against one choice/one army. The Sicaran will usually be worth it vs Eldar, but its strength is situational.The WS in comparison, is good against everything.
and always worth its points.
And they cost 140 points, they don't need the upgrades or less powerful selections to be fielded.
I can't really see it being useful without sponsons, and no-one plays it that way, so comparing its base cost is lacking. It will statistically need 2 turns of shooting at a WS to kill it without sponsons, which it won't get if the opponent is trying to destroy it. With sponsons and a bit of luck vs Jink you CAN kill a WS in one turn, which is what it needs to do. At least it might force the Eldar player to actually Jink, which a naked Sicaran won't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:31:54
For a mixed role MBT / Transport at 130+ points, yes it's garbage.
In comparison, the Imperial Guard gets 14/13/11, the Marines get 14/14/14 or 13/12/11 and the Necrons get pseudo 13/13/11.
So how is 12/12/10 any good in an edition where CC resolves against rear armor I wonder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You also failed to respond to my comment which stated that IG transports are actually 12/10/10, SM transports are 11/11/10 or 250pts for 14/14/14 without jink, fast skimmer, serp shield and having less shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also that I was curious why you thought mentioning LRBT and Pred armour was relevant when talking about a tabk with a transport/shooting roll.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 16:45:35
2015/02/05 16:51:04
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
But that's exactly what people do with everything they call OP.
They call Wave Serpents OP because they were situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.
Wave Serpents aren't good against everything, they're horrible against MEQ, assault, drop pods, AV12 flyers, cheap troops, cheap transports (a WS will take four turns of shooting 35 point transports to make its cost back, 6+ if you have to make the contents' cost back on top of it).
The Sicaran is point for point very comparable to the Wave Serpent in most use cases for the Wave Serpent, and outright better in some of these, including AV13 and AV11+ flyers.
Just think that for the price of a Wave Serpent (+ enabler), you get 9 twin linked S7AP4 at 48" Rending Jink Ignoring shots and 4.5HP on AV13/12/12 platform.
I would think that's a most favorable comparison against 4S6AP6 and 4.5 S7AP- at 36" with Ignores Cover (which is arguably better than just ignore jink) on an AV12/12/10 platform which has the option to generate 4+ cover anywhere by losing 66% of its firepower for one turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:32:14
2015/02/05 17:02:22
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
It is 6 shots and 3hps. Don't know where you're getting x1.5 from when they are the same price.
I really don't understand your comparisons at all in fact. Where on earth are you pulling those numbers from?
I think its pretty poor compared to 259 st10 ap1 7" ignores cover, twinlinked, primary weapon, tank hunting, rending, haywire shots myself, especially 1's that ignore invulns and auto win on a rerollable to hit roll of 1.
2015/02/05 17:03:03
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model. More importantly while the Sicaran is a good unit, it is no where near broken. It does make things with Jink cry, and that is just fine by me.
2015/02/05 17:09:41
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
But that's exactly what people do with everything they call OP.
They call Wave Serpents OP because they were situationally better in CAD+Allied tournaments at 1850 points, between June 2013 and October 2014 as a competitive filler unit.
Wave Serpents aren't good against everything, they're horrible against MEQ, assault, drop pods, AV12 flyers, cheap troops, cheap transports (a WS will take four turns of shooting 35 point transports to make its cost back, 6+ if you have to make the contents' cost back on top of it).
The Sicaran is point for point very comparable to the Wave Serpent in most use cases for the Wave Serpent, and outright better in some of these, including AV13 and AV11+ flyers. Just think that for the price of a Wave Serpent (+ enabler), you get 9 twin linked S7AP4 at 48" Rending Jink Ignoring shots and 4.5HP on AV13/12/12 platform. I would think that's a most favorable comparison against 4S6AP6 and 4.5 S7AP- at 36" with Ignores Cover (which is arguably better than just ignore jink) on an AV12/12/10 platform which has the option to generate 4+ cover anywhere by losing 66% of its firepower for one turn.
Wait Situationally better?
When is it situationally worse? Against ANYTHING Weight of high strength fire is good. and the WS has that in spades. (ok besides AV14 landraiders which basically no one runs)
Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/05 17:47:34
Piroko wrote: How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model.
One vehicle per 1,000 points can take a Legacy, and you can have multiple on each vehicle (but each Legacy can only be used once). Mars gives Tank Hunters and a 50/50 chance of ignoring Haywire, while Sarosh lets you use either Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters or Night Vision once.
(Edited for clarity)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 17:48:37
2015/02/05 17:53:25
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Piroko wrote: How did your friend get both the legacy that ignores haywire and gives tank hunter plus the legacy that gives the special rules for a turn? I thought it was 1 legacy per model.
One vehicle per 1,000 points can take a Legacy, and you can have multiple on each vehicle (but each Legacy can only be used once). Mars gives Tank Hunters and a 50/50 chance of ignoring Haywire, while Sarosh lets you use either Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters or Night Vision once.
(Edited for clarity)
I was about to say that he was having you on as they can only have 1 each. I then went to look at IA:2 for the quote in 'purchasing legacies of glory'... and it's not there. There is, to my surprise, nothing disallowing multiple legacies of glory on one vehicle. Unless it is somewhere else in IA:2.
However sarosh and mars both grant tank hunter so that's a bit of a wasted combination.
You have now got me thinking about combinations though...
2015/02/05 17:56:09
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Off topic, but it's not acceptable language in the UK - people have lost their jobs for using phrases like that.
(and yes, I do know it also can mean "The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place" but it's loaded word)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:33:30
2015/02/05 18:11:14
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
To be fair, although I'm not a fan of over political correctness, I would be disciplined if I used the word 'rape' to describe something to my pupils that was not actually rape.
2015/02/05 18:15:12
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Agreed. I hate when people use the word rape trivially like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: To be fair, although I'm not a fan of over political correctness, I would be disciplined if I used the word 'rape' to describe something to my pupils that was not actually rape.
It's not even really over PC. It's a sensitive topic and the word gets thrown around like its nothing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:34:06
2015/02/05 18:17:43
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Well its very commonly used over here and does not apply to only men and women so get over it. As overly politically correct and stupid we have gotten with sensitivity, no one will lose their jobs here for using it.
Morgoth- very few people play unbound and in apoc with titans running around, 10 Sicarans really do not matter too much in the scheme of things. So the most you will ever see is three and that cuts into heavy slots. In a Legion list it competes with other very good options for those slots. I don't know what it competes with in the chaos codex but I am sure there are options. I'll take a Fire Raptor any day of the week over a Sicaran for almost the same cost as what I use them at.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:19:21
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2015/02/05 18:18:07
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Agreed, I'm not easily offended, not by a long chalk, no one will ever know how much I moderate my language when posting compared to how I would talk in similar situations in real life, but, IME people who use rape in this context are generally boys (regardless of actual age) who lack the maturity and experience to truly appreciate the impact that the act they're describing can have on people.
It's a dreadful term for a dreadful act that has no place in this or any other civilised discussion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:34:54
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Tannhauser42 wrote: Keep in mind, armored ceramite doesn't block the melta gun entirely, it just stops the melta bonus pen die. You're still hitting it with a S8 AP1 shot.
Meaning you need a 6 to pen…
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/02/05 18:21:55
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
The sicarian essentially has a twin linked ignore jink heavy psycannon with 48 inch range. Trust me...this is hands down the best weapon in the game currently for the price.
It wrecks eldar
It wrecks all infantry
it wrecks flyers
Can hurt anything in the game...
Essentially it's good vs every army...it's not situationaly bad vs anything.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/02/05 18:23:17
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Tannhauser42 wrote: Keep in mind, armored ceramite doesn't block the melta gun entirely, it just stops the melta bonus pen die. You're still hitting it with a S8 AP1 shot.
Meaning you need a 6 to pen…
Only if you're in the front arc, and considering how close you've got to be for melta anyway, if you're not in side arc by the time you're in range, you've probably got something wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:24:00
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
It is not. Either we tell you, or we just click the yellow triangle of friendship and let the mods tell you, which might imply some sanctions. As you decide.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/02/05 18:25:53
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
To be fair, people are quite commonly shot over there, doesn't make it right when it happens.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Kangodo wrote: Yes, moderators need to do that. Are you a moderator?.
I am.
And we don't like it when people casually throw that term around.
So stop it.
Now.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/02/05 18:32:17
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
The wave serpent has a weapon that whilst not having rending, ignores ALL cover, is going to be tl also, will on average have 1 less shot at 60" range. It is debatable which is better as a weapon. When you also factor in all the other advantages of the WS, it is pretty clear which is better.
As to the weapon itself (I am counting the extended range to be as good as the extra shot on average):
Serp shield is as effective against skimmers (more so if they are in cover)
Serp shield is more effective against 4+ or worse infantry in cover.
Serp shield is better against av12 and lower in cover
Serp shield is as good against flyers
Serp shield is worse against av13 and 14.
Serp shield is slightly worse against meq and teq in the open.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the best weapon in the game for its points? Typhon. Hands down. And I mean the whole ruddy tank lol!
7" st10 ap1 primary weapon ignores cover blast
OR +1 on the thunderblitz table.
With ceremite for 20pts...
That
Is
Crazy
For 370pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can get TWO (without ceremite) for the cost of a Greater Brass Scorpion! That's astounding!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:38:50
2015/02/05 19:12:37
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Its also amazaballs against MEQ because you are chucking a butt load of +2 to wounds on them, even better against Pod armies as you can negate most of there melta guns if you dont shoot first like a nob.
Run the mathhammer, then come back.
Your opinion is not very interesting to read if you didn't even go through the necessary research before forming it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozen Ocean wrote: The Sicaran is cool. I just wish the model were symmetrical.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/02/05 19:50:10
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
So now it matters how things are listed ?
I thought we were considering the balance of these things.
If you did the math, you know that the Wave Serpent is not points efficient against a wide range of targets, including flyers, MEQ, TEQ and really just good against T6 3+SvMcs, AV11 and barely usable against AV13.
The only "tanks" it's good at taking out are AV12-, or in other words, transports and light tanks, not actual MBTs.
2015/02/05 20:08:48
Subject: Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: My question of course, is why shouldn't it be better than a wave serpent at being a MBT?
I mean ones a MBT and the other is a transport with lots of guns being used as a MBT that comes with a tax of a variety of useful units.
That argument is just not worth a cent in my opinion.
One is an MBT AND transport, whereas the other ones is just an MBT.
The Wave Serpent never was just a transport.
Except nowhere is it described as an MBT, unlike say, the Falcon, which fills both roles (and in every previous edition had superior firepower and usually resiliency too).
It's pretty clear the Wave Serpent's firepower is simply out of proportion to its cost, and that, coupled with its widespread availability on top of being a relatively resilient transport, makes it broken. There's a reason Eldar armies spamming these things are routinely taking top tables, as people have presented you with before in other threads.
Even though the article was bunk, I went through and did the basic math for average damage output against MEQ units, T6 3+SvMC's, AV11 and AV13 units in this thread, and it shows quite clearly that the Wave Serpent is exceedingly capable against a wide array of targets, dramatically moreso than even more expensive dedicated gun-tanks in some cases.
So now it matters how things are listed ?
If one unit is described as an MBT, and is put in the FoC section where MBT's are usually put, and another unit is not described in its fluff as an MBT and isn't in the MBT section of the FoC, we should probably assume the latter is not an MBT and should not be superior in most roles to the unit that's described as an MBT.
I thought we were considering the balance of these things.
If you did the math, you know that the Wave Serpent is not points efficient against a wide range of targets, including flyers, MEQ, TEQ and really just good against T6 3+SvMcs, AV11 and barely usable against AV13.
The only "tanks" it's good at taking out are AV12-, or in other words, transports and light tanks, not actual MBTs.
It's not great against AV13, but it's not terrible either (particularly once you start comparing it to other tanks), and against lighter vehicles it's absurdly overcapable. It's also actually rather effective at killing even MEQ's, is very good at engaging T6 3+svMC's. The kicker is that it's capable against *ALL* of these targets. It's astoundingly versatile.
For reference, lets take an *ACTUAL* battle tank, a Leman Russ Exterminator with 3 heavy bolters costing 150pts against the same unit
Spoiler:
So with a Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shield Cannon we've got a total of 7.55 average hits. Against T4 3+sv infantry (Marines) we get 2.1 dead per turn.
Now for the LRE
4 autocannon shots *(1/2)=2 hits
Twin Linked rerolls
((1/2)*4 autocannon shots *(1/2))=1 hit
Total Autocannon hits=3
Then we add the 3 heavy bolters
9*(1/2)=4.5 hits
On average, against that same T4 3+sv infantry unit=1.8333
So a relatively barebones 120pt Wave Serpent dedicated transport is putting out more hurt on a T4 3+sv unit than a 150pt Leman Russ Exterminator.
This is also discounting any Shuriken Catapults or Shuriken Cannons the Wave Serpent may also have.
If we add in a Shuriken Cannon, we get 3.28 average dead marines, an 80%% increase over that Leman Russ Exterminator, for fewer points.
Leman Russ Battle Tank relative to Wave Serpent
Spoiler:
It's harder to quantify blast weapons, but lets assume the following.
On average, you'll get 0.416 dead on hits per shot (0.33+0.0833 for BS3 scatter reduction) and effectively will get 0.611 hits on the original model between BS3 scatter reduction and a 5" blast (0.33 dead on, 2.5" blast radius means a full scatter of up to 6" will still hit with BS3 scatter reduction, so the 2/3rds of the time it scatters, 15 of 36 will still hit the original target, so we get an avearge ot 0.2777 hits from that to add to the original 0.33 no-scatter hits).
So assuming that, on average, the blast will miss the original target 0.389 times per shot. Roughly midway between BS3 and BS4.
OK, so we've got our barebones 150pt Leman Russ tank. We've got our assumption that on average, we'll get 0.416 dead on hits and 0.611 shots that will still hit the originally targeted model.
Now, cover, I'll go through this and provide examples for no cover, 5+ cover, and 4+ cover.
Our targets will be the original comparison of a MEQ unit and a T6 3+svMC. We'll also compare against an AV11, AV12, and AV13 targets.
Now, We've got a basic LRBT at 150pts base.
All sound reasonable? Sweet, lets go.
Leman Russ Battle Tank against MEQ unit in the open.
Now, lets make some assumptions about our target. We'll assume they're not patsy-bunched in a tight clump perfectly suited to a large blast weapon. Lets assume any direct hit will hit 5, and any scatter that still hits the original model (so scatter of 4"/5"/6" before BS subtraction) will hit 2.5 models of the original target unit, we'll assume scatter up to 8" (before BS correction) will hit 1 model, and anything beyond that will miss. Sound Reasonable? OK.
So, using the expected hits at the varying scatter distance above, Here's the math I'm going to follow.
.416 dead on hits X 5 models=2.08
.222 that still hit the original model X 2.5 models=0.555
.203 that still hit at least 1 model=.203
Anything beyond that is zero.
Lets total these. 2.08+0.555+0.203=2.838 hits on average from a BS3 Battlecannon.
Now lets wound. 2.838*5/6 chance to wound=2.365 dead marines.
Lets add in a snapfiring heavy bolter just for kicks
3*(1/6)*(2/3)*(1/3)=.111
So, in total, we get 2.476 dead marines on average assuming *no* cover.
Against marines in 5+ cover
(2/3)*(2.365)=1.57 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.681 dead marines in 5+ cover
Against marines in 4+
(1/2)*(2.365)=1.183 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.294 dead marines in 4+ cover
Now lets look at a T6 3+svMC. We'll be generous here and assume they're on the big oval base, and we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.
So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot. We get 5/6 wounds per hit. We get a total of 0.602 average wounds from the battlecannon and 0.055 from the snap firing heavy bolter, for a total of 0.657 average wounds against a T6 3+svMC in the open
Against a T6 3+svMC in 5+ cover, we get 0.456 wounds
Against a T6 3+svMC in 4+ cover, we get 0.356 wounds.
Now lets look at an AV11 vehicle. For vehicles, we can simplify this, once against we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.
So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot.
Now, against AV11, we need a 3 or better to inflict an HP loss (can't explode), and we get 2d6 pick-the-highest. This means we inflict the loss of an HP 32/36 times, or 8/9 times (0.888)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.642 HP's off an AV11 vehicle in the open,0 .428 against an AV11 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.321 HP's against an AV11 vehicle with 4+ cover. Add in the Heavy Bolter and that's 0.723, 0.511, and 0.404 HP's respectively.
Against AV 12 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 27/36 times or 3/4 (0.75)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.542 HP's off an AV12 vehicle in the open, 0.361 against an AV12 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.271 HP's against an AV12 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.
Against AV 13 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 20/36 times or 5/9 (0.55)
Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.401 HP's off an AV13 vehicle in the open, 0.267 against an AV13 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.200 HP's against an AV13 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.
So, lets look at your math now. Relatively cheap Wave Serpent with just Scatterlaser and Shield, we'll discount any other weapons or common wargear like Holofields, and say its 120pts versus our 150pt dedicated MEQ killing MBT.
Assuming no cover
Wave Serpent against Space Marines=2.1 Dead Space Marines
Wave Serpent against T6 3+svMC=1.48 wounds
Wave Serpent against AV11=1.92 HP's inflicted
Wave Serpent against AV13=0.663 HP's inflicted
LRBT against Space Marines=2.476 dead Space Marines
LRBT against T6 3+svMC=0.657 wounds
LRBT against AV11=0.723 HPs inflicted
LRBT against AV13=.401 HP's inflicted
Lets go through the math with the Razorback, since its the most similar in role, availability, and weapons capabilities.
For comparison, we'll use two of them (150pts) against a Wave Serpent armed with Scatterlaser and a Shuriken Cannon (130pts)
Spoiler:
Two Assault Cannon Razorbacks against Marines
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=1.185
Now add rerolls
8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.395
Thus, against Marines in the Open we get 2.76 dead marines on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.84
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.38
Lets try it now against a T6 3+svMC
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.59
Now add rerolls
8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.198
Thus, against a T6 3+svMC in the Open we get 1.97 wounds on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.312
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to .984
Against an AV11 vehicle (note: Rending will have zero effect here)
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3) = 1.77 HP's
Now add rerolls
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.59HP's
Thus against AV11 in the Open we get 2.36 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.57 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.18 HP's.
Against an AV13 vehicle (note: Rending will be the only way to harm AV13, any Rend however will inflict an HP)
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6) = 0.89 HP's
Now add rerolls
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.29HP's
Thus against AV13 in the Open we get 1.17 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 0.76 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 0.59 HP's.
Now lets use the Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Serpent Shield, and Shuriken Cannon
Against Marines in the Open
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.74
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.833
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.44
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.25
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.28
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.15
Thus against Marines in the Open we get 3.133 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.99 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.913 wounds.
Against a T6 3+svMC
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.44
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.67
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.22
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.148
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.22
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.074
Thus against a T6 3+svMC in the open we get 2.21 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.07 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 1.99 wounds.
Now against AV11
Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.88 HP's
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/2)= 1.5 HP's
Shuriken Cannon (Bladestorm does nothing)
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.67 HP's
Now add in rerolls
Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)= 0.29 HP's
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2)= 0.5 HP's
Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)=0.22 HP's
So against an AV11 vehicle in the open we get 4.06 HP's
Against a 5+ cover save that goes down to 3.37 HP's
Against a 4+ cover save that goes down to 3.03 HP's
Now lets look at AV13
Only the Serpent Shield will be relevant here, but we'll assume the Scatterlaser is used and hits (averaging 3.55 hits out of 4 shots with BS4 and rerolls) for Laserlock to go off to Twin Link the Serpent Shield
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/6)= 0.5 HP's
Now add in rerolls
Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6)= 0.17 HP's
Thus against AV13 we get 0.67 HP's, regardless of any Cover (as the shield ignores it)
So, lets look at the results. We've got *two* Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks at 150pts. We've got *one* Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon at 130pts.
Against a Marine unit, the single Wave Serpent is superior in every category, and its lead becomes increasingly commanding as cover becomes involved.
Against a T6 3+sv Monstrous Creature, we see the same result, the Wave Serpent is clearly superior in each category and becomes every more superior the more cover is involved, putting out twice the wound rate when 4+ cover is present.
Against AV11 we see the exact same pattern, only moreso, and with 4+ cover involved the Wave Serpent is creeping up to 3x the HP output.
It's only against AV13 that the Razorbacks see any sort of advantage, being rather clearly superior against AV13 in the open, but once again, as cover comes into play, dramatically decreasing in effectiveness as cover comes into play, only holding a 13% increase in effectiveness when 5+ cover is in play and finally being overtaken by the Wave Serpent when 4+ cover is in play.
Lets also not that at any ranges beyond 24", the Razorbacks are incapable of doing anything, while the Wave Serpent only loses the Shuriken Cannon, and can hit out to 60" with the Serpent Shield.
So again, the Wave Serpent is dramatically superior against a wider array of units than the two other transports combined, which also sport dramatically shorter overall ranges, that together cost more than the Wave Serpent, only have AV11 instead of AV12, only equal transport capacity between them, no Jink, no ignoring terrain, and no Fast movement.
If you want a comparison to something else, I can do it. Ultimately, the Wave Serpent isn't actually bad, or as bad, against what you say its bad against. It's surprisingly versatile.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/05 20:10:48
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
