A question that came up when I reviewed the Chaos dex and began to wonder why the Traitor Legions don't have the rule. If the line of thought is none of the marines had it back during the Heresy era then when exactly did they gain it and how? I mean the infrastructure and support was there for the legions to get the necessary training and psychomanipulation that I guess Is required to impart that ability during the Great Crusade. In fact I would say the very real need for it arose in that era and the Emperor's quote that personifies the rule comes from this era, yet no, it does not seem to have occurred then. So when did it happen? After the heresy when the imperium is fractured and in the grip of the wars that brought it back from the brink and drove the traitors off? Was it during another time frame? And why? IF they did not gain it during the height of their ascendancy in the Imprrium of Man, and if we are led to believe there was a long period of developmental stasis how they develop this new capability that the Emperor was unable to provide?

If they did possess it in the heresy era then how did the traitors lose it? Why do the recent traitors who go rogue lose it? What is the mechanism that makes them lose an ability that is so fundamental in their nature, and more importantly would prove useful for shock troops of the ruinous powers. Is it implied to be a blessing from the emperor so that when you fall from grace you lose it too? My reading of the Horus Heresy novels seems to imply they have it already since I cannot recall any passages where a legionnaire displays any fear.

I am unfamiliar with the 30k game so perhaps some of these questions are answered in that fluff but I am curious.

The theory is that loyalist Marines have no fear, because they have ultimate faith in the manifest destiny of space marinetude or something, while traitors don't have ATSKNF because they've seen enough of how the universe really works to realise that they're quite mortal, really.

Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

They are no more prone to fear than SM are fluffwise.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The theory is that loyalist Marines have no fear, because they have ultimate faith in the manifest destiny of space marinetude or something, while traitors don't have ATSKNF because they've seen enough of how the universe really works to realise that they're quite mortal, really.

Then why don't Tau have ATSKNF? They fully believe in the Greater Good...

Because they are 'just' zealous.

They are not psycho-indoctrinated and hypno-conditioned.

Which is also why SoB are entirely prone to break into a rout and get run down in fear.

CCCC:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

I reckon when they read the Codex Astartes they gain the ATSKNF perk. Stay in school kids!

 Ailaros wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

Well, this is a good point, but I think it would make a lot of sense for CSMs to all be fearless then. And not have to pay for it. Or maybe make the Veterans of the Long War special rule give them Fearless.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

Well, this is a good point, but I think it would make a lot of sense for CSMs to all be fearless then. And not have to pay for it. Or maybe make the Veterans of the Long War special rule give them Fearless.

More Fear-ignoring is really not warranted, and Fearless also makes the unit unable to break from a combat, and CSM aren't exactly mindlessly violent as far as I'm concerned...

If just SM and CSM both had Stubborn...

Uhh... why would chaos marines be fearless?

They broke out of their strict mental conditioning, and replaced it with...

...?

Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

nope it's the emperor

exact quote is

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
.

To answer the OP question, the 30k legion stuff from forge world doesn't have ATSNKF, so traitors didn't lose it, they just didn't gain it in the first place.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E

nope it's the emperor

'Fearless' is simply a unit or character that never backs down, no matter what. They do not withdraw even when it would be prudent.

ATSKNF is exactly what it sounds like. They know no fear. They can still withdraw if the situation calls for it, but it never breaks into a rout and they still calmly look to their own defenses as they pull back.

CSM should have at least Stubborn and arguably ATSKNF or Fearless (maybe to the last one though) to reflect how rock-hard you must be mentally to not only survive but dominate and thrive in the Eye of Terror.

If they aren't bothered by Eldritch Horrors™, then arguably a Riptide wouldn't be so scary either.

The lack of ATSKNF on HH Marines was probably because they were mass-produced at the time, putting less effort into each individual.

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

Well, the quote is. Leave it to the Imperium to take something the Emperor once said and turn it not only into religious dogma, but literal combat doctrine.

In any case, it's going to be very different than the fractious, undisciplined, chaotic rabble that chaos space marines are. They don't have the discipline or much of the gear. They only have the blessings of the chaos gods, which would definitely NOT make them fearless. At least, not until they half merged with their deity and entered a state of psychotic rage equally as dehumanizing as the space marine's daily dose of humanity stripping.

 Ailaros wrote:
In any case, it's going to be very different than the fractious, undisciplined, chaotic rabble that chaos space marines are. They don't have the discipline or much of the gear. They only have the blessings of the chaos gods, which would definitely NOT make them fearless. At least, not until they half merged with their deity and entered a state of psychotic rage equally as dehumanizing as the space marine's daily dose of humanity stripping.

Uh what?

Most Chaos Space Marine warbands are not disorganised and undisciplined. They are extremely brutal but they are also ruthlessly professional. They have managed extremely efficient, vast and quick acts of genocide that other races could not dream of without resorting to orbital weapons. (See the Purge). In fact, said genocide was not even brutal slaughter in direct combat, it was incredibly effective and efficient use of chemical weapons. Disorganised savages don't pull off stuff like that.

Even the World Eaters, infamous for their bloodlust, are perfectly calm and thinking outside of direct combat.

As said, constant exposure to the horrors of the Eye and emerging not only alive but thriving takes some serious willpower.

I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power.

There are some but they are firmly in minority. The Chaos Space Marines as a whole are very good and skilled at what they are doing.

ImAGeek wrote:I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds.

Yeah, that's just silly. There's nothing disciplined about chaos warbands. Everyone's only in it for themselves.

You can get a pale shadow of the idea of unity in a chaos army when they're all devoted to a single god, but given that said god is likely to encourage infighting or use them for their own petty ends...

Given that your average chaos space marine has the same level of discipline as a mere imperial guard sergeant, there's nothing professional or disciplined about them on the tabletop either.

ImAGeek wrote:But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Why?

Chaos space marines have survived at all, much less for this long, because they know when to run away and fight another day.

Unless they're brain-slaves of a chaos god, but that's another matter.

 Ailaros wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds.

Yeah, that's just silly. There's nothing disciplined about chaos warbands. Everyone's only in it for themselves.

You can get a pale shadow of the idea of unity in a chaos army when they're all devoted to a single god, but given that said god is likely to encourage infighting or use them for their own petty ends...

[citation needed]

To be fair, needing citation goes both ways.

And Ailaros, knowing when to run away (fall back) sounds a bit like ATSNKF...

ATSKNF is indeed the difference between controlled retreats and panicked routs.

As for examples of my own words, we can take anything from the sieges of the Iron Warriors, the masterful raids of the Red Corsairs, the carefully planned Death Guard-caused zombie incursions, every Black Crusade...

Chaos Marines are brutal and merciless but they very rarely abandon tactics and strategy.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say they do, I just don't think professional is the word I'd use. Theyre in general more disorganised than imperial forces, I think just due to everyone wanting power (the majority of them anyway). They wouldn't work as well together as they could. They're still a brutal fighting force that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of, but they aren't professional.

That's why Abbadon is such a good leader, because he's managed to organise very very large forces of chaos 12/13 times, which is no mean feat.

They are much more selfish than loyalists, but they are not stupid either. They know the value of efficiency. The major difference to loyalists is the fact that CSM often fight one another for dominance, but this never happens near a battlefield where there's loyalists to kill.

i dont think CSM have ATSKNF due to the fact that falling into chaos has degraded their morality, discipline. they are now selfish and careless about each other.

when the going gets tough on the field of battle, they probably go for each their own.

which should be the rule CSMs get.

For Each Their Own - upon failing a morale, pinning test, all units with this special rule will beat feet and get the F&^k out of dodge because...why not? who are chaos fighting for?

There wasn't ATSKNF during the Heresy. So CSM never had it.

ATSKNF represents the effect of the Codex Astartes and the legacy of being loyalists following the Heresy.

Post Heresy, Marines likely stepped up the indoctrination and hypnotherapy to make the marines more loyal. This resulted in them being less prone to running away from fights.

Chaos Marines don't have this rule because they've fallen to chaos and lack any deep motivations except their own personal motivations. One of which might be self-preservation, hence they'll be more likely to run away. Some are of course driven mad by Chaos or they're survivors of the Heresy itself, and thus are fearless by dint of pure hatred, pride, or just insanity.

They got it after the heresy for being space marines, they didn't have it during the heresy so the lesser space marines didn't know they would be missing out until it was too late.

Though it looks like it's meant to represent some of their codex training, lesser adhering chapters like BT, SW, BA, still have that training somewhat anyway. I have no idea why the chaos space marines can't have it, you'd think they'd all at least have fearless instead to represent a lack of fear over being trained to control fear.

Well you can buy them VotLW. Which represents those marines being Heresy veterans. Otherwise they're marines who turned traitor afterwards, and the process of turning traitor means they've lost the mental fortitude that being loyal Imperial Space Marines grants.

It still doesn't make sense. I can get that they look after themselves first and foremost but they don't become more cowardly because of the loyalty shift. In-game, though, they are.

They may be unlikely to sacrifice themselves for the cause like loyalists will, but they won't rout before something scary. If they know said scary is too much, they will withdraw, but if it isn't they can stand and fight without being bothered by its scariness. The rules fail to reflect this.

The rules fail to reflect a lot of things for chaos unfortunately.

Is it really surprising that the traitors lack the resolve of the loyal Space Marines? I mean, that is exactly why they are traitors after all.

Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

More common seems to be a very different type of corruption, such as the fate of the Abyssal Crusade.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It still doesn't make sense. I can get that they look after themselves first and foremost but they don't become more cowardly because of the loyalty shift. In-game, though, they are.

They may be unlikely to sacrifice themselves for the cause like loyalists will, but they won't rout before something scary. If they know said scary is too much, they will withdraw, but if it isn't they can stand and fight without being bothered by its scariness. The rules fail to reflect this.

Again, ATSKNF wasn't a SM trait until after the HH. CSM can't have a trait that didn't exist at the time. According to 30k not even the loyal SM legions have that rule. The different Legions have a rule that's called "Legiones Astartes" and have unique traits depending on their Legion.

That's probably because you cant sweep a unit with ATSKNF... HH is all about marines vs more marines. It would be a boring assault phase. every damn turn.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

More common seems to be a very different type of corruption, such as the fate of the Abyssal Crusade.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're fleeing in fear. its more that CSM are a little more selfish. They're not interested in dying in battle necessarily, they're out for their own advancement. You can't gain power and glory if you're dead. So them not being fearless or pseudo-fearless represents the fact that they'll bug out if things appear to be going bad. "Screw this, I'm not dying here!"

Being swept in game doesn't mean the entire unit died, either. It could be that the survivors decided to abandon the fight and activated personal teleporters, decided to go find a good cave to hide in, or simply fled the engagement area.

While some of the survivors were probably gunned or cut down by those chasing them, why should the rest care as Chaos Marines? Those other guys were probably not worthy to serve the Dark Gods, anyways.

While Loyalists will probably break off and cover their brothers as they retreat, taking turns turning to shoot covering fire and running away. Their hypno-indoctrination undoubtedly also forces them to stay in the field and die to the last man, rather than leaving the battlefield. (Not to mention the scorn and disdain they'd get from their fellow brothers for quitting the field as loyalist marines! That's how you get blackshields in the Deathwatch >.&gt

Indeed, all it means is that the unit is broken and will no longer participate in the battle. Most of the members would likely survive, they're just bugging out or hiding nearby till its safe to move about.

Because having no fear is a result of brainwashing, which has obviously broken down in the case of traitor marines. Or they wouldn't be traitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traitor marines have become people again. Loyalist marines have systematically had their humanity eliminated in order to make them into killing machines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're not brave. They're emotionally mutilated is what they are.

I think this has already been mentioned, but 30k is purely Marine-on-Marine, and thus ATSKNF would be pretty redundant and worthless since literally EVERYBODY would have it. If you guys want example of Heresy-era warriors knowing no fear, in False Gods, you have Loken talking to a remembrancer about whether oR not the concept of fear has been bred out of the Legiones Astartes, and I'm not going quote hunting right now because it's late, i'll find it tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody, i hope you have bloody, glorious dreams

And since all those points about gameplay are pretty revealing, you have to say that space marines got ATSKNF in 1998. Before then, I don't think no they had that particular "special" morale. Maybe I reveal inexperience.

Depending on the author, space marines do not feel fear. I always took ATSKNF as breaking from combat and left it like that. In my mind, I picture marines dying to hold ground while chaos space marines would just break to leave combat as they really owe no one anything.
However, this is clearly one of those instances where the rules do not reflect the fluff. I weep thinking about a guard player that has to buy enough guardsmen to take out a single chaos space marine if you were going to make it fluffy.

I imagine it wasn't so much to do with the codex astartes, and more to do with the rise of the ecclesiarchy - turning the Emperor into a god and such.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Yea but look at how organized the Dark Eldar are; they're also all in it for themselves and trying to win power. With CSMs you have SMs who turned to Chaos but they've still been at war for their entire existence. Being a professional is simply being very good at what it is you do. How else would you describe the Alpha Legion for example?

Maybe the ATSKNF has more to do with conviction and in wholly believing in their cause. That wouldn't apply to all CSMs (like the Night Lords for example, who are only out their to brutalize people).

 dusara217 wrote:
I think this has already been mentioned, but 30k is purely Marine-on-Marine, and thus ATSKNF would be pretty redundant and worthless since literally EVERYBODY would have it. If you guys want example of Heresy-era warriors knowing no fear, in False Gods, you have Loken talking to a remembrancer about whether oR not the concept of fear has been bred out of the Legiones Astartes, and I'm not going quote hunting right now because it's late, i'll find it tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody, i hope you have bloody, glorious dreams

I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Yea but look at how organized the Dark Eldar are; they're also all in it for themselves and trying to win power. With CSMs you have SMs who turned to Chaos but they've still been at war for their entire existence. Being a professional is simply being very good at what it is you do. How else would you describe the Alpha Legion for example?

Maybe the ATSKNF has more to do with conviction and in wholly believing in their cause. That wouldn't apply to all CSMs (like the Night Lords for example, who are only out their to brutalize people).

Oh I was thinking professional more from like how you do what you do ('professionalism in the workplace' kinda thing). I don't think a CSM would be adverse to letting their comrades die to cover their ass especially if they thought they'd stand to gain, which isn't overly professional, for example.

May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

I always thought it has something to do with their resolve at the end of the Heresy. The Imperium saw them for the worst that they could be and at the 2nd founding they were born anew. It was to show that they would never falter in their responsibilities to the Imperium and the Emperor and the fear of failing this duty. After the Heresy the Astartes have a hell of a lot to prove so it's sort of a war cry and belief that they will not and must not ever fail again. It's a fear born of failure, one that they must always strive to overcome. Nothing can change the past, no matter how many wars you win or lives you save.

Chaospling wrote:
May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

Eldar are biologically capable of fear. They are confident but their brains will trigger the fear reactions when it is applicable, even if they are quite resistant to panic.

Astartes are not.

 Inkubas wrote:
Depending on the author, space marines do not feel fear. I always took ATSKNF as breaking from combat and left it like that. In my mind, I picture marines dying to hold ground while chaos space marines would just break to leave combat as they really owe no one anything.
However, this is clearly one of those instances where the rules do not reflect the fluff. I weep thinking about a guard player that has to buy enough guardsmen to take out a single chaos space marine if you were going to make it fluffy.

Depending on the source: 2.4 to 100+ I guess..

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh I was thinking professional more from like how you do what you do ('professionalism in the workplace' kinda thing). I don't think a CSM would be adverse to letting their comrades die to cover their ass especially if they thought they'd stand to gain, which isn't overly professional, for example.

Yea I guess they're not overly professional when it comes to watching out for each other. But when it comes to getting the job done then they do it extremely well.

Chaospling wrote:
May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

Similar but the Space Marines are probably on another tier because of the psycho-indoctrination and as well as inherent stubbornness from the gene-seed. They also don't have to worry about their soul being consumed by Slaanesh if their spirit stone is lost. Exarchs are probably on the same level though.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I always thought it has something to do with their resolve at the end of the Heresy. The Imperium saw them for the worst that they could be and at the 2nd founding they were born anew. It was to show that they would never falter in their responsibilities to the Imperium and the Emperor and the fear of failing this duty. After the Heresy the Astartes have a hell of a lot to prove so it's sort of a war cry and belief that they will not and must not ever fail again. It's a fear born of failure, one that they must always strive to overcome. Nothing can change the past, no matter how many wars you win or lives you save.

Certainly makes a lot of sense! The CSM are in it more out of revenge so their resolve probably isn't as strong. Not that they're not effective at what they do.

They never "gained" ATSKNF. It just helps out the kids playing marines.
GW knows, that there are 14 year old customers. Space Marines are for those.
A tactical squad with rocket launcher, flamer and powersword/fist is the happy meal for 40k.
You don't need to worry about cover of your enemys - frag granades
You don't need to worry about cover for you marines - 3+
You don't need to worry about vehicels - krak granades, ML
You don't need to memorize the profile: 1 wound, 1 attack, everything else is 4
And of course you don't need to learn this morale stuff - you just ignore it.
And thanks to a drop pod you don't have to think where to put your marines in the first place. You just put them wherever you want them on the board.

It is really not about some space marine evolution - it's about marines being kid friendly.

30k is not for kids. So no need for ATSKNF.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

Loken was wrong. It has been stated many times that Space Marines can feel fear.

It has been stated, but becoming broken in-game does not necessarily mean turning tail and fleeing. It can simply mean a more-or-less disordered fighting retreat, being pushed back in the face of overwhelming resistance and unable to follow the orders of their commander (the player), with the chance of regrouping later if your fighting strength hasn't been too diminished. It doesn't mean cowardice or incompetence.
ATSKNF means a highly ordered fighting retreat. It shows greater discipline and loyalty (or brainwashing, if you prefer) to your brothers, which is the advantage loyalists have over the somewhat more selfish traitors (and everybody else in the game). Part of that discipline can ultimately be traced back to the Codex Astartes.

tgjensen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

Loken was wrong. It has been stated many times that Space Marines can feel fear.

It has been stated, but becoming broken in-game does not necessarily mean turning tail and fleeing. It can simply mean a more-or-less disordered fighting retreat, being pushed back in the face of overwhelming resistance and unable to follow the orders of their commander (the player), with the chance of regrouping later if your fighting strength hasn't been too diminished. It doesn't mean cowardice or incompetence.
ATSKNF means a highly ordered fighting retreat. It shows greater discipline and loyalty (or brainwashing, if you prefer) to your brothers, which is the advantage loyalists have over the somewhat more selfish traitors (and everybody else in the game). Part of that discipline can ultimately be traced back to the Codex Astartes.

Loken is not wrong, his statement is canon. Who would know better than Loken himself, who just had seen one of his friends become a Daemon and did not feel fear from the experience?

Whatever source you have for SM apparently fearing fear is not more canon than Horus Rising.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 von Hohenstein wrote:
They never "gained" ATSKNF. It just helps out the kids playing marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Loken is not wrong, his statement is canon. Who would know better than Loken himself, who just had seen one of his friends become a Daemon and did not feel fear from the experience?

Whatever source you have for SM apparently fearing fear is not more canon than Horus Rising.[/spoiler]

The Dark King, by Graham McNeil. A short story that is part of the Horus Heresy series as well. In it, Curze, via his psychic abilities senses the fear of an Imperial Fist that he preys upon. But it's not about the validity of the book, it's about the reliability of the character. I'll take the inner thoughts of a Primarch over the propaganda espoused by a Legionnaire.

About Marines not feeling fear - I don't believe that's the case. They don't feel debilitating fear, fear that would be counterproductive. That sort of fear is what their psychointodrtination has made them able to control through meditation, while regular fears (fear of desth, fear of not being a good and loyal Marine) remains. Without those, they couldn't function at all. Nothing would matter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

The CSM are not the one getting shafted. It is just the loyalist getting an undeserved fluffwise boost over EVERYONE ELSE.

Where are our Legion Tactics?

Our veteran skills?

Where is Ahriman's Divination?

Where are our dreadclaws aghaghagahgahgha

Again, Melee would absolutely suck in 30k if everybody had ATSKNF, as it's purely Marine-on-Marine combat. Now, if they were to introduce, say, some aliens into it (make it Great Crusade as well as Horus Heresy), then the they would probably give the Space Marines ATSKNF.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where are our Legion Tactics?

Where are my orders tactics? Where are the craftworld, klans, dynasty, sept, … tactics? All hidden in the same place. See? Loyalist marines getting extra attention.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Our veteran skills?

Uh uh uh.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where are our dreadclaws aghaghagahgahgha

In ForgeWorld, no?

,, Clans, Oxy. Orks have clans.

-

No.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
,, Clans, Oxy. Orks have clans.

Oh? In French I think it is Klan. Maybe in English they are afraid of reminding people of the Ku Klux Klan ?

Pretty much.

When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?

Around 3rd edition, I believe...

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Fearless' is simply a unit or character that never backs down, no matter what. They do not withdraw even when it would be prudent.

ATSKNF is exactly what it sounds like. They know no fear. They can still withdraw if the situation calls for it, but it never breaks into a rout and they still calmly look to their own defenses as they pull back.

CSM should have at least Stubborn and arguably ATSKNF or Fearless (maybe to the last one though) to reflect how rock-hard you must be mentally to not only survive but dominate and thrive in the Eye of Terror.

If they aren't bothered by Eldritch Horrors™, then arguably a Riptide wouldn't be so scary either.

The lack of ATSKNF on HH Marines was probably because they were mass-produced at the time, putting less effort into each individual.

Chaos should be fearless. The entire army should be fearless.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

They are no more prone to fear than SM are fluffwise.

Not true.

The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

As far as the OP's question, they got it, essentially, from the Codex Astartes. The Codex laid out how Marines were to be recruited and selected, and trained, and much of that outlined how to remove the corrupting influences (self-interest and Primarchs) from the equation, and make the individual Marine's sole purpose to be in service of the Emprah.

ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure. More specifically, failing the Emperor and the Chapter. That's why Space Marines have it, and Chaos Marines do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aben Zin wrote:

When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?

Around 3rd edition, I believe...

The rule was present in the 2nd Edition books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

They ran away at Terra. /shrug

The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere. Chaos Space Marines meanwhile are only self-serving and are more then willing to pull out if combat grows too dangerous and let allies take the hits for them to cover their retreat.

When CSM's fail leadership test, they aren't fleeing, they're simply saying 'feth this noise" and abandoning their posts.

 Ailaros wrote:
Uhh... why would chaos marines be fearless?

They broke out of their strict mental conditioning, and replaced it with...

...?

They replaced it with a blank space in their head where their brain used to be.

There's no reason why they don't have the sweep protection of the loyalists, though. CSM withdraw, but never abandon their personal defense as they do so.

The aftermath of Terra was a strategic withdrawal. CSM lacking the loyalist feelings of obligation does not make them more prone to fear, just less suicidal.

There is nothing in a tactical retreat that implies fear.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

 Wyzilla wrote:
The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere.

Hence the fluff about the Space Wolves turning traitor when their ship is captured.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's no reason why they don't have the sweep protection of the loyalists, though. CSM withdraw, but never abandon their personal defense as they do so.

The aftermath of Terra was a strategic withdrawal. CSM lacking the loyalist feelings of obligation does not make them more prone to fear, just less suicidal.

There is nothing in a tactical retreat that implies fear.

Right, and that goes for battle-hardened Imperial guardsmen, Eldar aspect warriors and probably just about every other elite warrior in the game.
Being swept does not mean abandoning your personal defence. If anything, it's the opposite - running away to save yourself and thus taking no further part in the battle. That can be due to fear. Or it can be due to simple self preservation.
If anything, Space Marines not being swept means they will stand their ground and fight against a foe that was already kicking their butts. It's willingly and selflessly jeopardizing their lives for the sake of the objective of the battle. That's what loyalist Space Marines do better than others.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

 Wyzilla wrote:
The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere.

Hence the fluff about the Space Wolves turning traitor when their ship is captured.

Do you understand the definition of outlier?

HH marines training was as fast as 2 years (in the case of the world eaters), its a fallacy that the legions got smaller as the war went on, it is also a fallacy that they will shrink after the heresy and not be able to replace lost marines, the legions in fact got larger during the heresy.

So chaos marines lacking ATSKNF in the heresy is most likely due to not actually having had the indoctrination, post heresy where marine recruitment was massively monitored and watched by the powers that be, I can understand how it would be enforced

 Wyzilla wrote:
Do you understand the definition of outlier?

Sure. Totally. Marines are less likely to turn their cloak or act out of fear for their personal safety, even though the fluff depicts them doing so much, much more often than they depict Sisters or Craftworld Eldars or…
But that is because outlier. The answer.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Do you understand the definition of outlier?

Sure. Totally. Marines are less likely to turn their cloak or act out of fear for their personal safety, even though the fluff depicts them doing so much, much more often than they depict Sisters or Craftworld Eldars or…
But that is because outlier. The answer.

Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The Ecclesiarchy's efforts make a good unquestioning, amoral, sociopathic shock trooper. But that's all it does. This disucssion is about the difference between loyal and traitor Space Marines, which are an entire tier above regular humans like Stormtroopers and Sisters.


Their faith gives the Sisters silly D&D cleric powers instead.

I feel like nobody here has read ANY of the Horus Heresy novels. There's a reason one of them is called "Know No Fear". The Space Marines literally thought they could not feel fear, I don't know where you guys are getting this " Legion Marines know fear" thing.

 Formosa wrote:
HH marines training was as fast as 2 years (in the case of the world eaters), its a fallacy that the legions got smaller as the war went on, it is also a fallacy that they will shrink after the heresy and not be able to replace lost marines, the legions in fact got larger during the heresy.

Wat?

Have you actually read any of the books? These were a series of brutal, bloody engagements, culminating in a frontal assault on the most heavily defended system in the galaxy. There's no chance the Legions were recruiting a rate that offset their losses, and the fluff specifically countermands this idea. But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol. What, do you think that legion on legion combat at Isvaan reduced the Sallies, RG and IH by 90% or more, but legion on legion combat at Terra would be just a minor fracass with light sparring and minimal casualties? Heck, the Collected Visions mentions that the loyalists "slaughtered thousands" just in the retreat after Horus died, 55 days into the siege.

Not trying to be harsh. Just have to make sure other impressionable, less well read posters here don't read what you wrote and think there's even a remote, tiny modicum of truth to it, lol. The Horus Heresy shattered the Legions, both loyal and traitor. So much so that there were more Ultramarines than there were all other kinds of Space Marines combined, simply because the Ultramarines hadn't been hit as hard as everyone else and thus were able to recover quicker. And that takes into account the losses at Calth. Why would the fluff specifically make a big deal about how the Ultramarines were "largely unscathed" if everyone else was just peachy and stronger than ever? If the Traitor legions had actually gotten larger after the Heresy, why would the Heresy have ended simply with the death of Horus? Why would the traitors flee to the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom and other hiding places unless they were suddenly outnumbered and disorganized?

I got the impression from almost every kind of text that Space Marines didn't know the fear which somehow would have them perform worse on the battlefield, but then the two stories come around: one with Space Wolves not fighting to their deaths but instead cornered and turned traitor (I'm a Chaos fan and I think that's a lame excuse - normal boarding battle, why not fight to their deaths?) and one with an Imperial Fist feeling fear according to Konrad Kurze - and again a strange ill explained example of a Space Marine feeling fear.

I'm almost inclined to dismiss these two examples entirely as they seem so far off comparing with all other background.

I can understand that some rare renegade Space Marines shouldn't have And They Shall Know No Fear if they follow no cause and just thought that the Emperor and Imperium of Man were no good for him, but Chaos Space Marines overall have as much purpose, dedication to a cause, honour and pride as a loyalist, which would lead to as much selflessness as a loyalist Space Marine shows.

Though saying this some background maybe should be ignored as Chaos Space Marines have been depicted by shallow authors more and more like the simple antagonist we've seen so often: no honour or selflessness (these belong to the good guys) and more thoughtless rage without purpose shown by the minions and only the leader being somewhat interesting which for example is seen in the movie Ultramarines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:



Their faith gives the Sisters silly D&D cleric powers instead.

Only if your own source is an idiotic book that also gives them civilian equipment and makes them have to earn the helmets to their substandard power armour.

Besides, Faith did give them a kind of pseudo-ATSKNF up until the very most recent codex. The ability to become Fearless at the start of any turn before regroup checks are rolled does exactly the same thing, except for the sweep protection... and sweep protection is stupid, because you don't get swept because you're running slipshod, you get swept because you can't move out of combat quickly and defend yourself at the same time.

I mean... being disciplined and fearless does not automatically grant you Spring Attack.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

Sorry, it comes from Codex: Chaos Space Marine 4th edition, apparently:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris
Do you really want me to find you every occasion of marines turning traitors in the fluff?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The marines are hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans. As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze, unlike Sisters. And then, they loose ATSKNF. Makes sense? Not to me.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol.

Applying common sense to 40k will destroy 40k . It is and will stay silly and over-the-top. Not sensible. Anyhow, I am pretty sure he meant the recruitment during the great crusade before the heresy, rather than during the heresy. Else I agree it is just too silly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze.

Commonly spewed copypasta that has no basis in reality.

Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources (something SoB is not immune to either) than the far more fallible Guardsmen do. SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.

The notion that Marines turn traitor easily has been mindlessly repeated until some people think it's true (like the 'Space Marines are too few to do their job' bullgak) but it remains false.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

Sorry, it comes from Codex: Chaos Space Marine 4th edition, apparently:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris
Do you really want me to find you every occasion of marines turning traitors in the fluff?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The marines are hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans. As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze, unlike Sisters. And then, they loose ATSKNF. Makes sense? Not to me.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol.

Applying common sense to 40k will destroy 40k . It is and will stay silly and over-the-top. Not sensible. Anyhow, I am pretty sure he meant the recruitment during the great crusade before the heresy, rather than during the heresy. Else I agree it is just too silly.

Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.

Space Marines have ATSKNF because they are selfless. They will readily lay down their lives to protect their brothers. This is why they cannot be swept.
Chaos Space Marines are far more selfish, they'd sooner throw the rest of their squad under the bus and so any fallback is every man for himself.

Codex Chaos Space Marines 3e wrote:The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefore does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away.

... Animus, really? Did you just say "Space Marines don't die because they sacrifice their lives to protect each other"?

'cause... you have to see the logical fallacy in that...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Animus, really? Did you just say "Space Marines don't die because they sacrifice their lives to protect each other"?

'cause... you have to see the logical fallacy in that...

Not really, a Marine will stay back to cover his brothers.
Chaos Marines will just leg it.

On the question of the abscence And They Shall Know No Fear, I would say it reflect a truth that can be bothering to Chaos Space Marines fans. If Space Marine are conditionned to have no fear (or at least the debilitating effect of it), their Chaos bretheren are just has immune to it. So why don't they have the special rule and will never have it? Because Chaos Space Marine are the exact opposite of the Sisters of Battle. They are willingly cowards at heart. A Sister knows fear, she was raised, trained, endoctrinated and submerged in a environnement that makes her has fearless an humen can be, but in extreme circomstances it can surface for a few critical seconds. For that you really need to push them to their last entrenchment and relentlessly bombard them with fear and trauma causing stimulus. Then a Sister may break in fear and flee for her life. For a Chaos Space Marines, it's the exact opposite. They virtualy know no fear, yet will break and flee in a disorganised fashion at the first sign something goes wrong for them. To a behavioral expert, the Chaos Space Marine would look at first like he is scared and run for is life. He do run for his life with no regard for his comrade, mission or honor, but he is not in panic. He genuily just want to get out of here ASAP. They hate tought fights, they will try to gain numerical advantages or superior ground or they will refuse to engage while Space Marines would on almost any circomstances. They don't stand their ground unless they really, really need to or have great incentives. Their favorite targets are civilians, crappy guardsmen or PDF and isolated target that can't fight back. Most of them are pirates and pillagers more than conquerors. Sure, they like to think themselves big, feared and powerful. But it's not really the truth and they know it. They are a shadow of their former selves. Only those with daemonic patronage ever amount to something good and these Chaos marines have the rule fearless. Chaos Marines are cowards at heart, but incredibly callous, cruel, bitter and brilliant at the same time. They are fething bastards and proud to be (most of the time). That's why they don't get And They Shall Know No Fear. It's also false to say that marines are completly fearless. Faced with supernatural horrors or impossibly powerful foes, they do loose their moral, their faith and sometimes their nerves. It's just so rare and strange that it doesn't really count.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources

Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power )

 Ashiraya wrote:
SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.

Uh uh.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.

Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources

Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power )

 Ashiraya wrote:
SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.

Uh uh.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.

Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do .

It's your job to prove your statement. Not mine to disprove it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power )

There's a lot of [needs citation] on the Silver Skulls page. The Deathmongers were messed with by Dark Eldar for years. Dark Eldar are very good at messing with heads.
Your last sentence has no citation!

Uh uh.

I do not see them become touched by mind-controlling blood in that text.

Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do .

Like, everywhere?

Dead Sky, Black Sun, off the top of my head?

Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter. This was to reduce the potential rebellions, and make shure that no one could gather so many Astartes againts the Imperium as Horus did.

Psychological training was in place even before the heresy, but the Astartes swore allegiance first for their Primarch and their Legion. After that was the Imperium.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's a lot of [needs citation] on the Silver Skulls page. The Deathmongers were messed with by Dark Eldar for years. Dark Eldar are very good at messing with heads.
Your last sentence has no citation!

Ah, trapped in sweet denial!

 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not see them become touched by mind-controlling blood in that text.

Do you know what happens when marines go on a daemon world?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Drakes
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sentinels_%28Chapter%29
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_Excelsior
.
Of course, if you really want mind-controlling blood and Sisters resisting its corrupting influence, we will need to talk about the Bloodtide, and how Sisters were corrupted by things that would have corrupted even the Grey Knights, and nobody wants to talk about the Bloodtide, right?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Dead Sky, Black Sun, off the top of my head?

From the description on Lexicanicum, they did not even die . The whole Red Corsair chapter is full of marines that defected without physical corruption!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter.

Obviously did not work.
Sisters do that much better than marines. Even going as far as decapitating their founder for the Imperium!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter.

Obviously did not work.
Sisters do that much better than marines. Even going as far as decapitating their founder for the Imperium!

Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.

And how it didn't work? There has been no Astartes (or any kind) rebellion the size of Horus Heresy. Yes, there has been a few turning traitor, but it's mostly contained within a Company. A whole Chapter gone traitor is pretty unlikely, and extremely rare.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.

Uh? The marines are zealous and religious-like, and the Sisters are quite military too. Not nearly that different.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
A whole Chapter gone traitor is pretty unlikely, and extremely rare.

I quoted a bunch of examples above. An Order gone traitor is unheard of. Or a preceptory. Actually, even ONE sister going traitor is a one of a kind event, if that ever happened.

ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
A whole Chapter gone traitor is pretty unlikely, and extremely rare.

I quoted a bunch of examples above.

You didn't actually disprove anything by doing so.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.

Uh? The marines are zealous and religious-like, and the Sisters are quite military too. Not nearly that different.

Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth. Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force. You can't send 100 sisters to a planet and expect them to do as well as 100 marines could (well, you CAN, but don't get your hopes up).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
A whole Chapter gone traitor is pretty unlikely, and extremely rare.

I quoted a bunch of examples above. An Order gone traitor is unheard of. Or a preceptory. Actually, even ONE sister going traitor is a one of a kind event, if that ever happened.

It doesn't disprove anything. And I never said that full Chapters can't go full traitor, but they rarely do, since there are always some who won't turn. Remember the Istvaan III.

epronovost wrote:
On the question of the abscence And They Shall Know No Fear, I would say it reflect a truth that can be bothering to Chaos Space Marines fans. If Space Marine are conditionned to have no fear (or at least the debilitating effect of it), their Chaos bretheren are just has immune to it. So why don't they have the special rule and will never have it? Because Chaos Space Marine are the exact opposite of the Sisters of Battle. They are willingly cowards at heart. A Sister knows fear, she was raised, trained, endoctrinated and submerged in a environnement that makes her has fearless an humen can be, but in extreme circomstances it can surface for a few critical seconds. For that you really need to push them to their last entrenchment and relentlessly bombard them with fear and trauma causing stimulus. Then a Sister may break in fear and flee for her life. For a Chaos Space Marines, it's the exact opposite. They virtualy know no fear, yet will break and flee in a disorganised fashion at the first sign something goes wrong for them. To a behavioral expert, the Chaos Space Marine would look at first like he is scared and run for is life. He do run for his life with no regard for his comrade, mission or honor, but he is not in panic. He genuily just want to get out of here ASAP. They hate tought fights, they will try to gain numerical advantages or superior ground or they will refuse to engage while Space Marines would on almost any circomstances. They don't stand their ground unless they really, really need to or have great incentives. Their favorite targets are civilians, crappy guardsmen or PDF and isolated target that can't fight back. Most of them are pirates and pillagers more than conquerors. Sure, they like to think themselves big, feared and powerful. But it's not really the truth and they know it. They are a shadow of their former selves. Only those with daemonic patronage ever amount to something good and these Chaos marines have the rule fearless. Chaos Marines are cowards at heart, but incredibly callous, cruel, bitter and brilliant at the same time. They are fething bastards and proud to be (most of the time). That's why they don't get And They Shall Know No Fear. It's also false to say that marines are completly fearless. Faced with supernatural horrors or impossibly powerful foes, they do loose their moral, their faith and sometimes their nerves. It's just so rare and strange that it doesn't really count.

In other words, they're cowards, but not cowards. They flee but do not flee. They are two sides of a blade, a face, and a crappy bolter.

@Iliu

I must admit it's a bit strange to talk in such terms. But that's what cowardice is. It's choosing to flee while you could stay and fight. Cowardice is a choice in my opinion. Fleeing in front of deadly dangers is not beeing coward. It's sanity and good judgement. Chaos Space Marines usually choose to run away even if they could stay and win with their sheer martial prowess and tactical acumen. They know no fear, but certainly act like cowards.

@Finlandiaperkele

Well if Sisters are recruited from a military academy, train in combat day and night, wear weapons, have tanks, a command structure, a hierarchie based on elitism, are schooled in strategie from Tactica Imperium, their own books and even large portion of the Codex Astartes, participate in wars, have rules of engagement and have standards of excellence, what do they need more to be soldiers? If Space Marines are soldiers (I don't think they are mind you) than Sisters certainly are (and I don't think they qualifie for that title either) and I don't think that this brings anything to the argument about fear and Chaos Marines vs Loyalist Marines. If we are to discuss who of the Sisters and Loyalist Marines are the braver I would say that doesn't make much difference. Has for corruptibility to the forces of Chaos, officialy only one Sister of Battle (maybe a few hundred if you want to sratch a lot) ever turned her back against the Imperium while more than a million marines did. I think that settles the issue quite nicely without any need to go further.

 j31c3n wrote:
ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.

Sisters have the marines discipline and then some more. And what about Eldars? Or Necrons?

 Ashiraya wrote:
You didn't actually disprove anything by doing so.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
It doesn't disprove anything.

Yeah, I know. Even giving you literally hundreds of examples of marines turning their cloak at the slightest breeze would not make you change your mind. Your minds are set, and nothing will change that.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth.

Not religious? Marines believe that they must pray to the machine spirit for their vehicles to work . They must oint their bolters in the sacred oils and other sacred stuff for them to work. They are as much bloody backward obscurantist superstitious as the rest of the Imperium. And then some more, usually. Why do you believe they call themselves brothers?

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force.

Oh yes, they are! It is their role.

It's a difference of mindset, I think.

When you are a Guardsman and Carnifexes have just nomnomnommed the rest of your squad, you fall back. As in, you drop your lasgun and flee in pants-wet terror. The commissar? The commissar would shoot you, but unfortunately only the commissar's gun arm is present - you're not sure which Tyranid ate the rest. The priest said the Emperor would protect you if you are faithful, five minutes before he died screaming after being shot by devourer maggots. Even your tank, the lynchpin of your squad's morale, has been torn apart by some aerial monstrosity the nature of which is best left to imagination.

So you flee. You panic. You run. You have no thoughts for anything but getting out of there, anywhere but here. You scream or whimper as you run, desperately praying that you are somehow spared. You are well and truly broken.

When you are a Chaos Space Marine and your squad is being charged by numerous Carnifexes, you fall back. As in, you turn riiight around and leg it with all the speed the Astartes are famous for, and if your squad has any wits they're doing the same, for you're not bothering with 'leave no one behind'. You do not fear the Carnifex. You do not panic. You do not wet any pants. You just know that the odds are very bad if you stand and fight, so you run. The Dark Apostle told you that the Gods will not protect you merely for being faithful, for the Gods do not suffer the weak or the foolish. You know that remaining would be foolish, so you don't. Whether it is out of dark zeal or desire to not die a meaningless death and eaten like a midday snack, you run away. The carnifex is not any more scary than a child's doll to you, but you are tactically and logically aware that they will eat you if given the chance, and that is not something you want. You want to be a Chaos Lord yourself one day, and getting eaten makes that harder. So you run.

When you are a loyalist Space Marine and your squad is being attacked by Carnifexes, you spread out. You and your squad evade their slower attacks and try to keep them distracted so that your brothers can bring up heavy weapons. You know that it is risky. A missed step and you are condemned to the tank-long talons of the Carnifex. But you do not fear it. You do not even consider running to save your own life. If you retreat, it is because your Captain considered it tactically prudent, or to preserve your gene-seed for the apothecaries. Your own life means nothing in itself. The mission is what matters, and if the mission requires that you stall the Carnifexes, then you will even if it wipes out your squad to the last man.

That is the difference between humans, loyalist Astartes and traitor Astartes.

And that is why I think Chaos Space Marines deserve a different version of ATSKNF for their own units, for they are neither normal soldiers nor Space Marines when it comes to morale. They are just as fearless as Marines, they are just less devoted and willing to sacrifice themselves.

There is a significant difference between abandoning all thought and legging it in panic, and running quickly but remaining fully calm and aware of your surroundings.

The marines post codex are of much higher quality and training than those during heresy times with the exception of course for your better marines.

Chaos Space Marines are not homogenous, and ten thousand years is a very long time.¨

You can't really measure CSM by the standards of 30k. They are no longer what they were.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.

Sisters have the marines discipline and then some more. And what about Eldars? Or Necrons?

 Ashiraya wrote:
You didn't actually disprove anything by doing so.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
It doesn't disprove anything.

Yeah, I know. Even giving you literally hundreds of examples of marines turning their cloak at the slightest breeze would not make you change your mind. Your minds are set, and nothing will change that.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth.

Not religious? Marines believe that they must pray to the machine spirit for their vehicles to work . They must oint their bolters in the sacred oils and other sacred stuff for them to work. They are as much bloody backward obscurantist superstitious as the rest of the Imperium. And then some more, usually. Why do you believe they call themselves brothers?

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force.

Oh yes, they are! It is their role.

You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.

And ten thousand years is, I really must stress, a very long time.

Hell, SoB did not even appear until M36, so they have not had nearly as much time on their hands.

Six thousand years, too, is a very long time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.

Sorry to break it to you, but the number is much higher than that.

Yes, whole Chapters turning is rare, but individual marines/squads hell even companies... not really.
Not to say it's common-place, but it isn't rare (or as rare as you're saying it is).

Also, if you think a marine turns into a pansy when they turn to the Chaos Gods/go renegade you have no idea... you need to be strong of will to live in places like the Eye or the Maelstrom.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.

Sorry to break it to you, but the number is much higher than that.

Yes, whole Chapters turning is rare, but individual marines/squads hell even companies... not really.
Not to say it's common-place, but it isn't rare (or as rare as you're saying it is).

Also, if you think a marine turns into a pansy when they turn to the Chaos Gods/go renegade you have no idea... you need to be strong of will to live in places like the Eye or the Maelstrom.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Legions_and_Warbands_%28List%29

There's less then a hundred recorded Chaos Space Marine warbands. While my initial statement was wrong, refreshing my memory on the list, there's 91 Chaos Space Marine Warbands that are traitors after the Horus Heresy. However, some of that number still may be founded from the already existing traitor legions. So somewhere around sixty to seventy known warbands (some of which weren't even entire Chapters).

So 91 warbands in the Lexicanum article...

Oh, looks like only 250 marine chapters exist as that's all the named chapters in the Loyalist article!

Also, not all marines that turn to chaos go and make their own warbands, often they join the more powerful ones. The Red Corsairs are made up of way more than just the initial, battered Astral Claws; so many that it's almost (if not) the size of a pre-heresy legion! Only ~200 are Astral Claws.

holy crap marine fanboys.

The fact that the main Chaos-mortal faction is Traitor Space Marines and not Traitor Sororitas should tell you that the Sororitas have fallen less than the Space Marines.

Like, even discounting the Heresy, there's plenty of non-VotLW (i.e. non-heresy-era) Chaos Space Marines.

There's like NO Chaos sisters of battle.

Hell, every ten seconds I find out about some new SM chapter that was excommunicated or sent on a penance crusade or something.

I think this thread just derailed a bit.

Long story short:
Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
the Sororitas have fallen less than the Space Marines.

No one has asserted otherwise, actually. Insulting other posters does not change this.

Be fair, Ashi, its not often that people do give the Sisters that respect.

@Finlandiaperkele

I think you don't what hypnotic indoctrination is. It's not a fantasy term to describe a super form of indoctrination. It's actualy a real practice and it has a definition and I may break another myth by doing so, but everyone in the Imperium may be subjected to hypnotic indoctrination at one point or another in their life. The pratice differs from indoctrination (which is basically just teaching consistantly something from an early age and foward it's not necessarly a bad thing). Hypnotic indoctrination is sending someone in a state of great weakness and guilibility using different strategy, repetion, enclosing environment, sleep deprivation, etc. and then teaching what you want to teach. The most common exemple of this in reallity is the droning religious chanting of many sect and fondamentalist mouvement and torturer's «interrogations». In the theocratic world of 40K, pretty much everybody is submitted to hypnotic indoctrination from an early age to enhance loyalty and faithfull behavior. So I don't think it's something new to the training of marines. I would more think that the adoption and creation of chaplain for evry 100 marines to insure studious religious practice, good training ritual and respect of tradition.

epronovost wrote:
@Finlandiaperkele

I think you don't what hypnotic indoctrination is. It's not a fantasy term to describe a super form of indoctrination. It's actualy a real practice and it has a definition and I may break another myth by doing so, but everyone in the Imperium may be subjected to hypnotic indoctrination at one point or another in their life. The pratice differs from indoctrination (which is basically just teaching consistantly something from an early age and foward it's not necessarly a bad thing). Hypnotic indoctrination is sending someone in a state of great weakness and guilibility using different strategy, repetion, enclosing environment, sleep deprivation, etc. and then teaching what you want to teach. The most common exemple of this in reallity is the droning religious chanting of many sect and fondamentalist mouvement and torturer's «interrogations». In the theocratic world of 40K, pretty much everybody is submitted to hypnotic indoctrination from an early age to enhance loyalty and faithfull behavior. So I don't think it's something new to the training of marines. I would more think that the adoption and creation of chaplain for evry 100 marines to insure studious religious practice, good training ritual and respect of tradition.

I just pulled it from top of my head. The real term is psycho-indoctrination.

@Finlandiaperkele

psycho-indoctrination is the exact same thing than psychosocial-inodctrination which is the act of indoctrinating a group of person together. So there is nothing special here. All soldiers from regular infantrie man to jetfighter to resistance fighter pass throught a form of psychosocial indoctrination to allow them to commit act of terrible violence with minimal psychological concequences. The training standards, strategies and technics of the Astartes from 30K and 40K aren't really different from those of elite soldiers like kasrkin, Scions, Sisters of Battle or Krieg's grenadiers or deathriders. They all are different, but in the end have very similar results. I stand by my point. Chaplains are the big difference between Crusade Marines, Chapter Marines and Chaos Space Marines. It's where I would look for the famous no retreat and fearless nature of loyalist Space Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
the Sororitas have fallen less than the Space Marines.

No one has asserted otherwise, actually. Insulting other posters does not change this.

Well, the reason I mention this is that it would seem that faith is a far better deterrent to Chaos than ATSKNF, or hypno-indoctrination, or psycho-indoctrination, or military discipline.

I don't understand why most of the Marines don't have faith in the Emperor (except you lot, Black Templars. Good on ya!).

@Unit1126PLL

Actually almost all Space Marines beside Space Wolves rever the Emperor, his Primarchs and their greatest heroes. They don't view them has gods, but more like ancestors that can guide, inspire and protect them. They litteraly hold a cult of personnality to the Emperor that they see like a man but treat like a god. It's more similar to ancient roman and etrusque religion than the more commonly understood form of religion like the one adopted by the Imperium at large (which is a form pseudo-catholisism with the Emperor has god and man). With that idea in mind, Space Marines are very religious indeed. I personnaly like Myria's explanation of the Space Marines weakness to explain their surprisingly large defection rate (considering their training and lifestyle).

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.

But the hypnotic indoctrination has been proven time and time in the fluff not to work!

 Wyzilla wrote:
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided.

What exactly do you want me to provide you with evidence of? I can only provide dozens of examples of marines falling to chaos for specious reasons. Sorry, that is all I can do. Can you show me many examples of them resisting to a lot of stress to turn to Chaos? Because else, my side is much more supported by the fluff than yours: Marines fall to Chaos super-easily.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.

But the hypnotic indoctrination has been proven time and time in the fluff not to work!

 Wyzilla wrote:
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided.

What exactly do you want me to provide you with evidence of? I can only provide dozens of examples of marines falling to chaos for specious reasons. Sorry, that is all I can do. Can you show me many examples of them resisting to a lot of stress to turn to Chaos? Because else, my side is much more supported by the fluff than yours: Marines fall to Chaos super-easily.

Please stop.
You are constantly derailing this thread. It's not about it's effectiveness, it's about why/how/when it was introduced.

And it was introduced as a part of the Codex Astartes. And it seems to have worked, since there hasn't been another Horus Heresy.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.

But the hypnotic indoctrination has been proven time and time in the fluff not to work!

 Wyzilla wrote:
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided.

What exactly do you want me to provide you with evidence of? I can only provide dozens of examples of marines falling to chaos for specious reasons. Sorry, that is all I can do. Can you show me many examples of them resisting to a lot of stress to turn to Chaos? Because else, my side is much more supported by the fluff than yours: Marines fall to Chaos super-easily.

Please stop.
You are constantly derailing this thread. It's not about it's effectiveness, it's about why/how/when it was introduced.

It was introduced:

To prevent another Heresy.
By hypno-indoctrination and discipline.
After the Heresy around the second founding.

/thread....


....unless you want to talk about other things now?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.

Sisters have the marines discipline and then some more.

Sororitas have faith, not discipline. They have Acts of Faith and some other assorted goodies instead of ATSKNF.

 j31c3n wrote:
Sororitas have faith, not discipline.

They have faith and discipline. Have you read anything about them? The smallest disobedience is extremely harshly punished.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Sororitas have faith, not discipline.

They have faith and discipline. Have you read anything about them? The smallest disobedience is extremely harshly punished.

Well, then why don't they have ATSKNF?

Because GW don't like SoB, as evident by their old metal models and digital only codex.

As someone said earlier, every other army has the short straw compared to the attention GW gives the Loyalist Marine factions (well, besides DA...) and Craftworld Eldar (who even then don't get the same amount of attention), it just so happens that CSMs ans SoB drew the shortest ones...

Okay, it's beyond argument that the Sisters are the most neglected faction... but Chaos? Please. They're the primary antagonist of the story. There's an entire wheelbarrow full of novels about the time Chaos and the Imperium duked it out over Terra. Maybe you've heard of it, it's called something like "the Horrace Heiress" or something. I dunno, it's pretty obscure.

Ultimately, ATSKNF is not a fluffy thing. It's a game mechanic thing. That's the inherent problem with this whole thread.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ultimately, ATSKNF is not a fluffy thing. It's a game mechanic thing. That's the inherent problem with this whole thread.

Regarding game mechanics, it would certainly be interesting to see VotLW buffed a bit in the next release to be "on par" with ATSKNF. I'd love to see the Sisters get something similar as well (the only thing that's stopped me from building a Sororitas force is the lack of Astartes-style multi-part plastic kits - I love taking the time to individually model all of my minis).

But regardless, I think ATSKNF represents the discipline and singleminded purpose of the Astartes. Chaos Marines don't have that laser focus on duty, and Sororitas, while certainly discipined, have other purposes besides simply serving as the Emperor's angels of death.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The marines are hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans. As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze, unlike Sisters. And then, they loose ATSKNF. Makes sense? Not to me.

Sure, if a "stiff breeze" means a failure rate around 1% according to the lore, sure.

The biggest chunk of Marines turning to Chaos came after some guy in a giant pope hat sent them into the Eye of Terror, and that's just over half the total number of Chapters that have turned renegade in 10,000 years.

In the end, turns out that decades of hypno-therapy works better than prayar beads and lashings. but that's kind of the whole point of the Ecclesiarchy. That it's all a big lie. An institution that is riddled with corruption and agendas and oppression. When their morale breaks, the Sisters have seen the big lie and realize all the Hail Empys in the galaxy won't save them.

Space Marines can break. Hence why there are Chaos Marines. The bar is just higher, and the results more drastic. When a Sister of Battle breaks, the threshhold is much lower, so they just give her a ball gag, a Leeloo outfit and a giant chainsaw.


And no, the Acts of Faith are the cleric powers. I know not which book you speak of, though if it's from FFG's mediocre 40KRPG series, I'm probably not familiar. The Sisters used to have the power to get really angry and hate everybody. Now they have the power to make bullets hurt more or go through walls, or they gain the power to run faster. Rites of Battle were cool and fluffy rules for implacable religious fanatics. Acts of Faith are just D&D Cleric powers, or worse, MMORPG party buffs, lol.

@j31c3n

Sororitas have the rule stubborn and high leadership score to represent their iron discipline. Chaos Space Marines have the option for increase leadership that gives them squad leader with Ld 10 and hatred to represent their ferocious and cold hearted nature. In designing a game, one must at least make minimal effort for everyone to be a bit special. And They Shall Know No Fear is a loyalist Space Marine trademark. Fluff wise, it's generaly accepted that this represent the greater discipline, faith and sense of sacrifice of the already supernaturaly brave Space Marines compare to their fallen brothers who despite their courage lack the sense of selflessness necessary to truly know no fear.

Game wise, Space Marines are the poster boys of GW, it's most valuable asset and their greatest selling brands. That's why they have such a large collection of models of great quality, so many special characters and usually rather good rules updated regularly. They are also supposed to be very beginner friendly that's why they come off has Jack of all trades and masters of none and are very forgiving when it comes to mistake. They also provide great benefit for costumisation. Chaos Marines are more of a subfaction of Space Marines than an army of their own. They may continue to evolve into their own unique army like they are doing now, And They Shall Know No Fear, is a clever rule to make an elite army with few models more forgiving without being completly unfair. Plus, it gives a sentation of power and awesomeness much better than the selling pitch for let say Sisters of Battle who, in my opinion, probably have the worst one.

@Veteran Sergeant

1% of a million represent 10 000 marines. If that number is true it's 9999 more marines that turned to Chaos vs Sisters of Batlle (officially) and if we count the Horus Heresy (and we should) that turn into around 50% of all marines. Repentia haven't lost their faith in the Emperor at all. They even are more zealous than your average Sister. It's also a self imposed punishment in most cases and a concequences for failure or disobediance in the other, not heresy, blasphemy or trahison. The punishment for that is death, or transformation in a servitor just like for Marines. The ritual for a Siser to become a repentia involve that specific sister renouncing her life, title, rank, name and sense of self to atone of her sins. Space Marines also have their equivalent of repentia: the censor (a marine who has lost his honor and must fight in the worst combat to regain it). I think you need to see this once and for all. Space Marines are very loyal and strong willed much more than most humen, but not has much has the Sisters of Battle. It's the whole point of the Adeptus Astartes. They are giant superhment warriors with apparently no weakness expect their pride, tribalism, isolationism, egoism, lust for power and reconnaissance not counting their own specific brand of obscurantism. They are like their Primarchs, invicible in appereance but full of holes where you can strike if you want them to join you. Chaos Space Marines aren't usually broken marines most of the time they are like Constantinus. Frustrated, self-centered, brutal warriors who can't recognise their own failure or respect their orders and think they deserve more because they are Space Marines.

@j31c3n

Exactly, and because they are the primary antagonist, GW neglects them (not BL, GW main) so that Loyalists look much better.

Seriously, rules-wise CSMs get dumped on, and all the good fluff is just the Heresy, the rest is "hey, here's a paragraph on the original legions, a paragraph for some of the less-obscures monogod warbands, and hey, Abysal Crusades! (..which ends with the remaining Loyalists from the crusade as being heroes by killing a corrupt saint. Heroes... in the Chaos codex... ) See, these loyalists turned traitor! Ooh, and look, 4 pages on a CSM timeline! (one of which is about the time some Sergeant denounced the Imperium and was shot for the trouble by an assassin)" .

Compared to C: SM where a few pages are left aside for the making of marines and heraldry, then the rest of the fluff pages are for the main chapters and how awesome they are (each getting more than a paragraph about them) and then having pages upon pages of times marines won battles and f'ed the other races up.



@Sergeant

which lore states only 1% have turned to Chaos? You mean the fact that a Lexicanum article only has ~80-90 warbands listed? Well, if that's the reason then only 250 Loyalists exists, as that's how many are in the Loyalist Chapter list on the same site.

And when you have chaos warbands that are the size of the original legions, when they started off as just 1/5 of a whole SM chapter (Red Corsairs), there's more than you might think.

There's more than you think, I believe; at least 10 Legions-Worth of marines, plus ~ 50 Chapters worth (while 80 are in the list, I'm guessing most weren't whole chapters).

100 000 (average legion size, since I'm included all the warbands from the original legions) *10 (No. of Legions + Red Corsairs) = 1000000... before we add the remaining ~80 warbands from the article 1000^2 = 1000000, so there's a similar number of SMs and CSMs if we only include RCs and the Legions.

Considering everyone loves to point out most of the marines in the legions aren't the original marines, that means a lot of 'loyalist' marines have gone traitor to fill their ranks.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Exactly, and because they are the primary antagonist, GW neglects them (not BL, GW main) so that Loyalists look much better.

The crux of your argument seems to be "Chaos Marines have less fluff than Loyalist Marines."

That is undeniably true.

However, that doesn't make Chaos Space Marines as underrepresented as Sisters of Battle. They are just as underrepresented as every other faction besides the Sisters, who are at the bottom of the barrel. I think this is pretty woeful, but that's just the way it is. I, too, would love to see more stories exploring everyone BUT the Astartes. A "hero" is only as interesting as its "villains," as the old saw goes.

I don't think Chaos really gets "dumped on" from a mechanical perspective. They just suffer from unfortunate design errors. I honestly doubt the intention was to fill their codex with bad units. That doesn't make any sense from a sales perspective. If you design a crap unit, nobody will buy the kit. That's the whole point of GW: buy new kits.

I wish all the Codices were as big and interesting and (relatively) balanced as C:SM.

I suppose I'm just really annoyed that one of my favourite armies isn't really as awesome on the tabletop or (41st Millenium) background as it should be...

And yes, it would be awesome if every faction recieved the same attention as C: SM, which honestly is the way it should be. Hands down it is the best codex GW has made.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I suppose I'm just really annoyed that one of my favourite armies isn't really as awesome on the tabletop as it should be...

And yes, it would be awesome if every faction recieved the same attention as C: SM, which honestly is the way it should be. Hands down it is the best codex GW has made.

In my local gaming group, I am notorious for pointing out and complaining about (what I think are) minor mechanical flaws and design errors. The latest C:SM is the recordholder for "least complaints" from me - only one. I still miss the trait tables from 4th edition. :(

Buuuuut anyways. I still contend that fluffwise, ATSKNF represents the duty and focus instilled in a Marine by their daily devotions and adherence to the Codex Astartes (even the non-Codex chapters like the Space Wolves and the Black Templars would be pretty idiotic to not at least consult the book from time to time for tactical or spiritual advice) and/or that chapter's equivalent tradition.

Marines lose ATSKNF when they defect because they are no longer limited to that austere and spartan lifestyle. Their newfound freedom blunts their focus and adherence to duty.

@j31c3n

I think there is very few debate about your last statement. The only thing left really to determine is what is the greatest source of inspiration that Space Marines have and their traitors counterparts don't.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ultimately, ATSKNF is not a fluffy thing. It's a game mechanic thing. That's the inherent problem with this whole thread.

Very close.

ATSKNF is only 10% fluff IMHO.

It has a quote and the emperor in this, so assumptions are made it is pre-heresy.
Maybe.
The Legions of Imperial Space Marines weren't meant to run away too easy. Because military disclipline.
The Adeptus Astartes was the Thunder Warrior replacement. So if fearless crazed berserkers was not the goal set in Big E's mind....its all about controlled violence.

He didn't create 20 identical copies of 1 template either. But in M40, loyalists generally have ATSKNF. One could think it is a in-game-mechanic to represent the MO of the loyalists.
CSM aren't ISM anymore. Different army - different rules and playstyle.

epronovost wrote:
@j31c3n

I think there is very few debate about your last statement. The only thing left really to determine is what is the greatest source of inspiration that Space Marines have and their traitors counterparts don't.

It must be Land Speeders.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Sure, if a "stiff breeze" means a failure rate around 1% according to the lore, sure.

I think a source has already been asked .

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In the end, turns out that decades of hypno-therapy works better than prayar beads and lashings.

Obviously, no. That is why there is no “Chaos Sisters of Battle” codex. Or models in another codex. Or mentions in the fluff. Or…

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
When their morale breaks, the Sisters have seen the big lie and realize all the Hail Empys in the galaxy won't save them.

Uh, any reference to that in the fluff? Because there are none. And certainly not the Repentia, which explicitly believe the Emperor can save them and they can be redeemed, up to becoming a living saint.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Space Marines can break. Hence why there are Chaos Marines. The bar is just higher, and the results more drastic. When a Sister of Battle breaks, the threshhold is much lower, so they just give her a ball gag, a Leeloo outfit and a giant chainsaw.

When a marine breaks, he starts fighting for the worse threat to humanity, and their previous sworn enemy. When a sister “breaks”, she fights even harder for her previous ideal. Yeah, that is indeed quite different .

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And no, the Acts of Faith are the cleric powers.

The acts of faith are them fighting harder because of their zeal. Except for Celestine. But I would hardly call that “cleric powers”.

I think Living Saints are magical girls. And that is awesome.

 j31c3n wrote:

Marines lose ATSKNF when they defect because they are no longer limited to that austere and spartan lifestyle. Their newfound freedom blunts their focus and adherence to duty.

Why do Space Wolves have ATSKNF?

They seem pretty free, non-spartan, non-austere and unfocused to me.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

Marines lose ATSKNF when they defect because they are no longer limited to that austere and spartan lifestyle. Their newfound freedom blunts their focus and adherence to duty.

Why do Space Wolves have ATSKNF?

They seem pretty free, non-spartan, non-austere and unfocused to me.

Space Wolves are "free" in the same sense that Salamanders are. Both chapters are "free" to leave the monastery and consort with the community.

Space Wolves are also very individualistic and enjoy going against Imperial authority whenever possible (in fact, they are notorious for their disrespect for authority).

That does not sound like that soulless brainwashed ATSKNF people are talking about.

I've never mentioned brainwashing in my explanations. I never liked the idea of brainwashed Space Marines (except for the REALLY CRAZY chapters like Minotaurs). My personal snowflake chapter doesn't use it.

I think ATSKNF is less about psycho-conditioning and brainwashing and more about stuff like daily rituals and the general monastic lifestyle of Space Marines. Even the "aberrant" chapters like Space Wolves or Dark Angels or Black Templars still have that monkish flavor, in my opinion.

Sororitas have a similarly cloistered lifestyle, but I think that is manifested in crunch terms as Acts of Faith, due to the religious nature of their devotion, whereas the Astartes are generally areligious.

Astartes are highly religious, they just don't subscribe to the Imperial Cult, preferring their own chapter cults.

As far as the Space Wolves go, I'm afraid you're wrong. They spend their down time sitting around drinking mjod and telling fishermans' stories around wood fires... according to every Space Wolf novel ever published.

By contrast, the Sisters lead a strictly regimented life of prayer, self-denial, penitence rituals and weapons training. The weapons training is also prayer, by the way, and sometimes penitence as well.

Acts of Faith are the Sisters' mechanical equivalent to ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics, true. That doesn't really change the fact that if ATSKNF was really a result of a strict monastic lifestyle, the Sororitas would get it... and if it was really the result of heavy indoctrination and genemods, the CSM would get it...

I guess it must be a random artifact of combining both in a single entity.

Maybe Space Wolves get it from devotion to drink, women, and WOLF WOLF WOLF WOLF.

And they will wolf no wolf.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And they will wolf no wolf.

Exalted.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Astartes are highly religious, they just don't subscribe to the Imperial Cult, preferring their own chapter cults.

I thought the latest fluff stated that only an extreme minority of SM chapters (maybe just the Black Templars) religiously worshiped the Emperor?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@j31c3n

Exactly, and because they are the primary antagonist, GW neglects them (not BL, GW main) so that Loyalists look much better.

Seriously, rules-wise CSMs get dumped on, and all the good fluff is just the Heresy, the rest is "hey, here's a paragraph on the original legions, a paragraph for some of the less-obscures monogod warbands, and hey, Abysal Crusades! (..which ends with the remaining Loyalists from the crusade as being heroes by killing a corrupt saint. Heroes... in the Chaos codex... ) See, these loyalists turned traitor! Ooh, and look, 4 pages on a CSM timeline! (one of which is about the time some Sergeant denounced the Imperium and was shot for the trouble by an assassin)" .

Compared to C: SM where a few pages are left aside for the making of marines and heraldry, then the rest of the fluff pages are for the main chapters and how awesome they are (each getting more than a paragraph about them) and then having pages upon pages of times marines won battles and f'ed the other races up.



@Sergeant

which lore states only 1% have turned to Chaos? You mean the fact that a Lexicanum article only has ~80-90 warbands listed? Well, if that's the reason then only 250 Loyalists exists, as that's how many are in the Loyalist Chapter list on the same site.

And when you have chaos warbands that are the size of the original legions, when they started off as just 1/5 of a whole SM chapter (Red Corsairs), there's more than you might think.

There's more than you think, I believe; at least 10 Legions-Worth of marines, plus ~ 50 Chapters worth (while 80 are in the list, I'm guessing most weren't whole chapters).

100 000 (average legion size, since I'm included all the warbands from the original legions) *10 (No. of Legions + Red Corsairs) = 1000000... before we add the remaining ~80 warbands from the article 1000^2 = 1000000, so there's a similar number of SMs and CSMs if we only include RCs and the Legions.

Considering everyone loves to point out most of the marines in the legions aren't the original marines, that means a lot of 'loyalist' marines have gone traitor to fill their ranks.

The lexicanum lists 250 known Chapters out of the total 1,000 Chapters. However, we only know that there are around 91 individual Chaos Space Marine Warbands, total, across the entire ten millennia. We don't have a total number of Warbands, and thus it can only be concluded that there are 91 Warbands over the entire course of ten millennia to the best of our knowledge.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The lexicanum lists 250 known Chapters out of the total 1,000 Chapters. However, we only know that there are around 91 individual Chaos Space Marine Warbands, total, across the entire ten millennia. We don't have a total number of Warbands, and thus it can only be concluded that there are 91 Warbands over the entire course of ten millennia to the best of our knowledge.

Keep in mind as well, a warband isn't necessarily comparable in size to a chapter. Could be larger or smaller. In my opinion, smaller is more likely, in general. Though I think the Red Corsairs are supposed to be "legion sized."

 j31c3n wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The lexicanum lists 250 known Chapters out of the total 1,000 Chapters. However, we only know that there are around 91 individual Chaos Space Marine Warbands, total, across the entire ten millennia. We don't have a total number of Warbands, and thus it can only be concluded that there are 91 Warbands over the entire course of ten millennia to the best of our knowledge.

Keep in mind as well, a warband isn't necessarily comparable in size to a chapter. Could be larger or smaller. In my opinion, smaller is more likely, in general. Though I think the Red Corsairs are supposed to be "legion sized."

Red Corsairs are Legion sized. By now they've recovered from the losses of the Badab War, not to mention they also recruit both VOTLW and fresh traitors. They're pretty much the poor man's Black Legion now.

And yeah, their size likely is smaller then average. Without the resources of a full Legion or a proper Chapter, a Warband probably has a harder time replacing their losses then normal. And then there's the times like the Avenging Sons, where only one Company turned traitor.

j31c3n wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And they will wolf no wolf.

Exalted.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Astartes are highly religious, they just don't subscribe to the Imperial Cult, preferring their own chapter cults.

I thought the latest fluff stated that only an extreme minority of SM chapters (maybe just the Black Templars) religiously worshiped the Emperor?

It is. That does not, however, mean that they are not religious. Most every chapter out there religiously worships their primarch for starters, and that's without getting into the Machine Cult.

I get the feeling that they aren't as fervent as the Sororitas, though. Don't see many Astartes running around in loincloths with giant chainsaws, for example. Sure, there are Penitant Crusades, but those have always felt more political than religious to me.

I get the feeling that they aren't as fervent as the Sororitas, though. Don't see many Astartes running around in loincloths with giant chainsaws, for example. Sure, there are Penitant Crusades, but those have always felt more political than religious to me.

I would agree up to certain point with you, but marines are ultra-religious they aren't in the same sect then the Sororitas who are themselves not really in the same cult than the rest of the Imperium. Plus Astartes all wear on their chest the symbol of the Emperor which also happen to be the equivalent of the crucifix. They don't need to wear monkish cloathing to prove their faith (they do wear togas in their down time).

Admittedly, my views on the Astartes are colored by my own opinions about religiosity. (That, and the 30k ideal of the "Imperial Truth.")

Wearing the Aquila on their chest doesn't necessarily imply a religious meaning, though. The Aquila is simply the symbol of the Imperium. It's like how US troops wear an American flag patch on one shoulder.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force.

Oh yes, they are! It is their role.

Just a little side-note, not all Adeptas Sororitas are meant for battle. They also serve myriad other duties that nuns would do, like healing, but battle is just what we see the most in the war game that this is based off of. The Adepta Sororitas are basically just female monks, with warrior monks and non-warrior monks alike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Considering everyone loves to point out most of the marines in the legions aren't the original marines, that means a lot of 'loyalist' marines have gone traitor to fill their ranks.

Not even close. Chaos Space Marines are constantly recruiting mortals and creating more Space Marines through the most brutal means possible, with even higher failure rates than Loyalists have. The thing is, that they are CONSTANTLY recruiting, and thus are constantly creating more Space Marines no matter that the quota has been filled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I suppose I'm just really annoyed that one of my favourite armies isn't really as awesome on the tabletop as it should be...

And yes, it would be awesome if every faction recieved the same attention as C: SM, which honestly is the way it should be. Hands down it is the best codex GW has made.

In my local gaming group, I am notorious for pointing out and complaining about (what I think are) minor mechanical flaws and design errors. The latest C:SM is the recordholder for "least complaints" from me - only one. I still miss the trait tables from 4th edition. :(

Buuuuut anyways. I still contend that fluffwise, ATSKNF represents the duty and focus instilled in a Marine by their daily devotions and adherence to the Codex Astartes (even the non-Codex chapters like the Space Wolves and the Black Templars would be pretty idiotic to not at least consult the book from time to time for tactical or spiritual advice) and/or that chapter's equivalent tradition.

Marines lose ATSKNF when they defect because they are no longer limited to that austere and spartan lifestyle. Their newfound freedom blunts their focus and adherence to duty.

Please explain to me why the very concept of fear was alien to the Pre-Heresy Luna Wolves, then

Just in case you can't, it would make the most sense that the chemical glands that produce fear hormones and pheromones have been dulled in Astartes so that the emotion of "fear" is almost impossible to evoke in them, but still possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the people posting about how superior the Sororitas are to the Space Marines:

Your average Space Marine is, first and foremost, a soldier. There are your knightly Chapter (DA), your monastic Chapters (BT), and your downright insane Chapters (Mino.), and there are the Chapters that are all 3, but the vast majority of Chapters are soldiers, not monks, or knights of Paladins. Something that the Ultramarines have brought to play is that Space Marines are soldiers, not Angels, or Knights, or Vikings, or Mongols, or or or. The vast majority of your Space Marines are soldiers with the most severe levels of brainwashing and biologcal modifications (think KGB-level brainwashing), while the Emperor is just a great man who died 10k years ago. A huge part of the reason that "so many" (very few have actually fallen since the Heresy) have fallen is that most of your Space Marines do not see the Emperor as the God or the Omnissiah, but simply a man that they now fight for for reasons that they don't understand but have been brainwashed into not questioning.

Then, you have Chapters like the Soul Drinkers and the Salamanders, who fight for the good of humanity. You have Chapters like the Blood Angels and Black Templars, who revere the Emperor as a god. These are the Chapters that you will see Chaos struggling to turn, even moreso than ordinary Chapters, because these Chapters falling would demonstrate the absolute fallability and weakness of modern Astartes. However, time and again, Chaos fails to bring these Chapters into the fold. Why? Because they have something greater to fight for than their Chapter, or glory, or obeying their psycho-indoctrination; a greater good. They have genuine reasons to serve the Imperium, and thus are far more difficult to bring down.


Then, we go to the Adeptas Sororitas. These are essentially female monks, pure and simple. They have their military arm (SoB), that also acts as the military arm of the Ordo Heretics (might have been Malleus, not sure on that one) and the Ecclesiarchy. They have their healers and Saints, builders and public servants. But, here we are discusing their Sisters of Battle. Why has only a single member of the Adeptas Sororitas ever fallen to Chaos? It is simple really, only a few contributing factors. I'll make a list, because lists please me.

1.) Elitism. They only choose the most faithful and able to join their ranks, and thus ensure that their people are strong (mentally and spiritually). The faiths of those they choose cannot be questionable, and thus they (in this manner) are superior to the Astartes, for the Astartes regulate predilection and talent for combat, but not necessarily faith.
2.) Training. They are trained to face the horrors of the galaxy. They learn about the Daemons of Chaos, they learn about how they may be perverted from the light, they are taught how to counter these threats and they are taught how to combat them.
3.) Monastic lifestyle. The Spartan lives of the Adeptas Sororitas ensure that they do not acquire addictions or soft spots. Their monastic traditions and complete and utter devotion to the Emperor ensure that even when faced with the lies the Imperium may try to feed them (exposed for what they are), they will still refuse Chaos; for they know that the Emperor's divine hand is behind them.



From the evidence that I have acquired in both the Horu Heresy novels and ordinary 40k novels, the Space Marines acquired ATSKNF through a combination of brainwashing, cultural stigma, and brain suppression. The very neural response of fear is weakened in the process of becoming Astartes, and thus it is almost impossible to elicit fear in an Astartes unless what they are facing is absolutely fearsome and terrible - like failure.

j31c3n wrote:I get the feeling that they aren't as fervent as the Sororitas, though. Don't see many Astartes running around in loincloths with giant chainsaws, for example. Sure, there are Penitant Crusades, but those have always felt more political than religious to me.

That's just because Repentia duty isn't part of the majority of Space Marine chapter cults. Some chapters do, however, have something similar. Imperial Fists spend hours upon hours repenting in the Pain Glove. The Angels Resplendent put their entire chapter into repentia-style service when they became the Angels Penitent. Blood Angels who begin to fall into the Black Rage often consign themselves voluntarily to the Death Company to make sure they don't fall and betray their squad by accident. Mantis Warriors exile themselves to the Mantidae... and so on and so forth.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force.

Oh yes, they are! It is their role.

Just a little side-note, not all Adeptas Sororitas are meant for battle. They also serve myriad other duties that nuns would do, like healing, but battle is just what we see the most in the war game that this is based off of. The Adepta Sororitas are basically just female monks, with warrior monks and non-warrior monks alike.

Not exactly. All Sororitas, whether they're Militant, Famulous, Dialogous, Hospitaller, Sabine or Pronatus receive the same basic training in weaponry and armour. They are all at the very least trained to use a bolter and power armour before they're selected by their Order. Even then, a Sister can request to be transferred to another Order - militant or otherwise.

To the people posting about how superior the Sororitas are to the Space Marines:

Being a saint has nothing to do with being a Sororitas, and Marines have some of the most knowledgeable healers in the galaxy in the form of the Apothecarion. It's got nothing to do with how focussed on being 'soldiers' the Astartes are, because the Adepta Sororitas Orders Militant are ever bit as much the consummate soldier as the Astartes. You keep trying to say that the Sororitas aren't as much soldiers because they're also nuns. That is because you're operating under a vital misconception: To the Orders Militant, war is worship. Morning prayers are as likely to include bolter drill as they are to include kneeling on a wooden bench or a rubber mat with their hands together. Every stroke of a spade when planting a devotional garden is practice with a Sarissa. Every hymn of glory is a marching song. The Sisters do not sacrifice their soldiering for religion. Their soldiering is religion.. and as for the 'healers, builders etc', they mostly have direct Astartes equivalents. Hospitaller/Apothecary. Dialogous/Librarian (although without the witchery), Pronatus/Librarian, etc. Although I'm not sure where you get the builders from. There's no Order Enginerius.

Next, the idea that Space Marines don't venerate the Emperor. The Space Marines most definitely do venerate the Emperor. They may not see him as a God, but they most certainly venerate him as the pinnacle of Humanity and their father.

1.) Elitism. They only choose the most faithful and able to join their ranks, and thus ensure that their people are strong (mentally and spiritually). The faiths of those they choose cannot be questionable, and thus they (in this manner) are superior to the Astartes, for the Astartes regulate predilection and talent for combat, but not necessarily faith.
2.) Training. They are trained to face the horrors of the galaxy. They learn about the Daemons of Chaos, they learn about how they may be perverted from the light, they are taught how to counter these threats and they are taught how to combat them.
3.) Monastic lifestyle. The Spartan lives of the Adeptas Sororitas ensure that they do not acquire addictions or soft spots. Their monastic traditions and complete and utter devotion to the Emperor ensure that even when faced with the lies the Imperium may try to feed them (exposed for what they are), they will still refuse Chaos; for they know that the Emperor's divine hand is behind them.

Point #2 confuses me. Thorough as Sororitas training is, I severely doubt that Space Marines are not taught how to fight daemons. Exorcisms are a proven technique, not 'religious mumbo-jumbo', so if the Sororitas are trained to use them, its a safe bet the Astartes are too.



From the evidence that I have acquired in both the Horu Heresy novels and ordinary 40k novels, the Space Marines acquired ATSKNF through a combination of brainwashing, cultural stigma, and brain suppression. The very neural response of fear is weakened in the process of becoming Astartes, and thus it is almost impossible to elicit fear in an Astartes unless what they are facing is absolutely fearsome and terrible - like failure.

You people are constantly derailing this thread. It's not about it's effectiveness, it's not about if it's right or wrong and it's definitely NOT about SoB.

So please stop, or make another thread.

The OP has received his/her/its answer. It was introduced as a part of Codex Astartes just after the Horus Heresy to prevent another galactic-scale civil war from happening.

/Thread.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but consider why chaos marines turned to chaos. Personal gain. They are selfish. So where a space marine is willing to sacrifice his life for the emporer, a chaos marine will m not do the se for the chaos gods. Why? The chaos marine serves chaos because it benefits him (with a few exceptions), but the loyalist serves out of devotion to the emporer... Not himself. When in a hopeless situation, a loyalist will serve the emporer. The traitor will serve himself.

TLR Chaos serve the gods because it benefits them. Loyalists serve the empires from devotion.

Also, I have seen a few comments on how 30k marines Don't have it... I don't think we should use rules to justify fluff.

Many Chaos Marines turned because they were betrayed by the Imperium or out of loyalty to their immediate leaders, actually.

Also, Finland, the thread is actually about why Vanilla Marines get ATSKNF and nobody else does, even other armies that have the same benefits as them. So the SoB talk is actually completely on topic.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The lexicanum lists 250 known Chapters out of the total 1,000 Chapters. However, we only know that there are around 91 individual Chaos Space Marine Warbands, total, across the entire ten millennia.

There are 5 loyalist marines codex and only one imperial guard codex. Therefore, there are 5 times as many loyalist marines as there are imperial guard.
.
This is what your logic looks like. There are less chaos space marine warband listed, because chaos marines get way, way, less spotlight than loyalists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force.

Oh yes, they are! It is their role.

Just a little side-note, not all Adeptas Sororitas are meant for battle.

Not all Sororitas, but yes all Sisters of Battle.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas are basically just female monks, with warrior monks and non-warrior monks alike.

The militant orders have the lion's share of the total number of Sororitas, which is unsurprising given how they were created: as a personal army by the most powerful man on the Imperium.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The lexicanum lists 250 known Chapters out of the total 1,000 Chapters. However, we only know that there are around 91 individual Chaos Space Marine Warbands, total, across the entire ten millennia.

There are 5 loyalist marines codex and only one imperial guard codex. Therefore, there are 5 times as many loyalist marines as there are imperial guard.
.
This is what your logic looks like. There are less chaos space marine warband listed, because chaos marines get way, way, less spotlight than loyalists.

What the hell does that even mean? That rebuttal is merely a false analogy that doesn't even make sense to the original statement and point. Out of ALL currently known Chaos Warbands, for the entire past ten millennium, there are only roughly 91 individual Warbands, and the number of those who are actually former loyalists may even be lower, given the founding of some of those Warbands is unknown. There's no set number for Chaos Astartes like the Loyalists' approximate one thousand Chapters, indeed, there isn't truly a need for many Chaos Warbands given that the Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Red Corsairs, and Alpha Legion certainly are the size of their former loyal legions (in the case of the Black Legion, probably greater), which reduces the needed amount of Chaos Warbands to equal/rival the number of Loyalist Marines.

You only operate off what is already known, and the data states that there are only 91 active Chaos Space Marine Warbands formed over the course of the past ten millennia in 40K, and we have nothing pointing to any greater amount.

Your quoted argument is a false analogy that doesn't make a lick of sense compared to my original statement, and your entire point banks on an appeal to probability, when there is nothing to suggest that there IS more Chaos Space Marine Warbands. At best you may be looking at a number around a hundred or very generously, a hundred and fifty total, and that's it. GW not publishing more material is not a valid argument- you only argue and judge off what is already known, not which is unknown (which is an argument from ignorance). And mind you, I am saying this as a Chaos Space Marine player and fan, considering that Night Lords are downright my favorite sub-faction.

Unless there is further evidence, there is no reason to believe the number is sufficiently greater at all. "Oh noez GW doesn't produce enough material for C:CSM" is not an argument, and not a blank cheque to immediately assume a staggering around of traitor Chapters. Hell it's also unsupported by the lore in the first place, just look at how the allies of the Astral Claws in the Badab War realized the error of their ways and repented for their sins and being misled (rather then cutting their losses and simply fleeing into the Maelstrom). Who gets the spotlight is irrelevant.

But by all means, please do proof the information that has apparently so convinced you of the staggering amount of Astartes Chapters that so regularly turn traitor, when last stands are among the main tropes of the Adeptus Astartes, to the point that one Legion is downright infamous for them.

@dusara217

Space Marines cannot be soldiers because they don't don't sign contracts of enlistment, receive no pay for their work, aren't directly linked to a political power who commands them and don't answer to any other military structure but their own. They are warriors and Chapters are armies, but they are not soldiers. They finance their activity by being granted stewardship of planets, recruit from the locals who don't even need to be volonteers and once Space Marines they remain until their death or betrayal. They are much like saxon huskarls or knights or golden riders, etc. In history, we consider the first real army with professionnal soldiers to be the Marius reformed roman legion and the next one would be the sweedish national army of the 30 years war. The Militant Sisters are in the exact same spot, warriors and armie, but not soldiers.

Just thought you might like to know that. You can read Clausewitz if you want to learn more.

epronovost wrote:


Space Marines cannot be soldiers
because they don't don't sign contracts of enlistment,
receive no pay for their work,
aren't directly linked to a political power who commands them
and don't answer to any other military structure but their own.

To ignore the Emperor is Heresy.

So be happy some orkmoticons are all you got.

Codex Chaos Space Marines 4e wrote:Though there are no complete accounts even in the archives of the Inquisition, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy.

Not too bad for 10k years.

Going back to the follow up question of if the Astrates received the necessary training and hypnoconditioning to receive ATSKNF after the heresy, does this mean that when a current marine switches allegiances to Chaos that the process also involves breaking or overcoming the conditioning that grants them ATSKNF?

Do Primarchs have ATSKNF? For example, the Salamanders find Vulcan out there and he returns to lead his Chapter, I'm assuming he will lack the discipline, indoctrination, whatever we want to call it to have no fear. I wonder what he (or any other loyalist primarch) would think about the way his chapter has been manipulated by the Imperium?

@1hadhq

I don't get your point? Am I wrong when I say they don't receive any pay, sign no vonlonteering contracts for a specific period of time, aren't subjected to the Departemento Munitorum edict and authority and don't have to take orders from Imperial Guards officers or commissars? From what I know from them, they choose which battles they want to fight, obey only members of their Chapters. control their own lands and don't have to respect Imperial laws. They are just like vassals. They do have a relation to the Imperial Command structure, but it's not throught a civil contract, but throught oaths and traditions.

Stravo wrote:
Do Primarchs have ATSKNF?

Primarchs have the Primarch rule, which grants Independant Character, Master of the Legion, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, and It Will Not Die!. Sheesh.

 j31c3n wrote:

Stravo wrote:
Do Primarchs have ATSKNF?

Primarchs have the Primarch rule, which grants Independant Character, Master of the Legion, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, and It Will Not Die!. Sheesh.

Waitwaitwait. The immortal Primarchs, leaders and scions of the greatest armies Humanity has ever gathered, peerless warriors, tacticans, smiths and artists... Has as much instict of self-preservation as a fething robot?!

@The Wise Dane

Primarchs are invicible. You don't know fear or understand it when you are inviscible so basically yes. they have the self-preservation instinct of mindless robots because no matter what they do, they can virtualy not be killed besides by magical means.

Or one another.

epronovost wrote:
@The Wise Dane

Primarchs are invicible. You don't know fear or understand it when you are inviscible so basically yes. they have the self-preservation instinct of mindless robots because no matter what they do, they can virtualy not be killed besides by magical means.

But... There's SO MUCH they wouldn't be able to understand about war and strategy, if they are immortal! Sure, they might learn that not everyone are immortal like them, but will never fully understand it or care for it, because it's not a part of their world! Human psychology, really. Besides, they all wear armour and fight with weapons, so I suppose they aren't immortal, or they'd not need those. In fact, I've never encountered the fact that they are immortal anywhere I've read about them... Sure, immortal to time, but they all have a physical and harmable body, however formidable it might be.

Why would Corax use stealth at all, if he were immortal? Why would he use the slaves of the future Deliverance to liberate the planet, instead of barging in the front door to do it himself?

How could Sanguinius be killed as a little child (as the tribesmen were planning)? How could Horus kill him? Because he is immortaler?!

Where did Guilliman learn all his experience of regular human war, when he would never have experienced itself, as his form of war would be different (basically a Rambo killingspree)?

I mean, I get why Angron would be Fearless, but not the likes of Guilliman or Vulkan... Subborn would be better in those cases.

The problem is the wording of the Fearless rule. It SOUNDS like a cool rule. FEARLESS! But it's a piece of junk. They should just have the rule that Marneus Calgar has that lets him decide if he's going to pass or fail Morale checks. That would make a billion times more sense.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I mean, I get why Angron would be Fearless, but not the likes of Guilliman or Vulkan... Subborn would be better in those cases.

A primarch getting sweeping advanc'd?

 j31c3n wrote:
The problem is the wording of the Fearless rule. It SOUNDS like a cool rule. FEARLESS! But it's a piece of junk. They should just have the rule that Marneus Calgar has that lets him decide if he's going to pass or fail Morale checks. That would make a billion times more sense.

That's a general problem with the USRs, I find... Furious Charge, Fearless, Smash, Shred, And They Shall Know No Fear, Feel No Pain... I mean, Fantasy has the same to some extend, but at least some are just called Regeneration, Immune to Psychology or Extra Attack...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I mean, I get why Angron would be Fearless, but not the likes of Guilliman or Vulkan... Subborn would be better in those cases.

A primarch getting sweeping advanc'd?

Oh that's right, Stubborn doesn't help prevent Sweeping in 40K... Been reading to much into Fantasy xD

But, you know, if you manage that, you can just say that the Primarch went "Well, screw this" and fled the battle, to brood behind the battlelines... Or add another rule called "Fighting Another Day" or something, that let you place him in Ongoing Reserves with half his wounds left, representing him fleeing to come back later. Dunno, sounds fair.

Horus charges Corax. Both have 2 tactical marines with them. Corax' tactical marines kills a Sons of Horus tactical marine. Horus loses combat, flees and gets swept.

#forgingthenarrative

They could write the Black Library Rule

"Everyone Lives to Fight Another Day"

Rule text: Primarch battles have no consequence. If a Primarch model loses a combat with another Primarch model, immediately return two troop models to play who take its place while the losing Primarch model retreats with the closest unit.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You only operate off what is already known, and the data states that there are only 91 active Chaos Space Marine Warbands formed over the course of the past ten millennia in 40K,

No, the data does not point to that. The data point states that there are at least 91 named active Chaos Space Marine Warband, and an unknown amount of unamed Chaos Space Marines Warband. Just like the data states that there are 250 named active Space Marines Chapters, and 750 unamed Space Marine Chapter.

 Wyzilla wrote:
when there is nothing to suggest that there IS more Chaos Space Marine Warbands.

The simple fact there was no set number ever given and new warbands keep getting introduced regularly suggest that there are more Chaos Space Marine Warbands, actually.

 Wyzilla wrote:
At best you may be looking at a number around a hundred or very generously, a hundred and fifty total, and that's it.

If I was to apply the same assumption on the proportion of unnamed chapters versus named chapters, it would give us around 300 chapters, way less than the actual number given in the fluff. Hence the assumption is plain out wrong to make.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:


You people are constantly derailing this thread. It's not about it's effectiveness, it's not about if it's right or wrong and it's definitely NOT about SoB.

So please stop, or make another thread.

The OP has received his/her/its answer. It was introduced as a part of Codex Astartes just after the Horus Heresy to prevent another galactic-scale civil war from happening.

/Thread.

Please explain to me why the very concept of fear was foreign to Garviel Loken and the other Astartes of the Luna Wolves, then.


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@ Furyou Miku

Space Marines are soldiers in the sense that they aren't religious warriors, they fight and then they fight and they train to fight, they don't worship and practice art, etc. etc. Their driving motivation is loyalty to the Chapter and the Imperium, which is incredibly finite when compared to relgion and faith.


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@ Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
This:

Animus wrote:

Codex Chaos Space Marines 4e wrote:Though there are no complete accounts even in the archives of the Inquisition, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy.

Not too bad for 10k years.

That quote talks about entire chapters falling, which is admittedly rare. It does not talk about the entire number of marines that have fallen (ranging from individual marines, squads and even companies in additional to the aforementioned ~50 chapters)

Space Marines are Arthurian Knights, only in outer spaaaaaace. Of course they're religious; that's part of the archetype.

Not being religious in the 40K universe would actually be kind of silly, given that gods are an objective reality.


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Part of the whole point of the 30K Imperial creed is that it was a lie. Hypocrisy is a big part of the 40K setting, and this is part of it.

dusara217 wrote:
Please explain to me why the very concept of fear was foreign to Garviel Loken and the other Astartes of the Luna Wolves, then.

Consistency really isn't the top priority at TBL, lol.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That quote talks about entire chapters falling, which is admittedly rare. It does not talk about the entire number of marines that have fallen (ranging from individual marines, squads and even companies in additional to the aforementioned ~50 chapters)

Which comprise the extra 50 or so extra Warbands that we can safely assume exist. Also, something you may forget: If a part of a Chapter goes rogue, that puts the entire Chapter into the suspicious eyes of the Inquisition. In light of this blight on their honor, most Chapters will hunt down and destroy any of their number who turn traitor (see: Wolf Brothers).