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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 18:22:56
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources
Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power  )
Ashiraya wrote:SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.
Uh uh.
Wyzilla wrote:Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.
Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do  .
It's your job to prove your statement. Not mine to disprove it.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 18:26:13
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power  )
There's a lot of [needs citation] on the Silver Skulls page. The Deathmongers were messed with by Dark Eldar for years. Dark Eldar are very good at messing with heads.
Your last sentence has no citation!
Uh uh.
I do not see them become touched by mind-controlling blood in that text.
Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do  .
Like, everywhere?
Dead Sky, Black Sun, off the top of my head?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 18:38:47
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter. This was to reduce the potential rebellions, and make shure that no one could gather so many Astartes againts the Imperium as Horus did.
Psychological training was in place even before the heresy, but the Astartes swore allegiance first for their Primarch and their Legion. After that was the Imperium.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/20 18:41:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 18:54:17
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Ashiraya wrote:There's a lot of [needs citation] on the Silver Skulls page. The Deathmongers were messed with by Dark Eldar for years. Dark Eldar are very good at messing with heads.
Your last sentence has no citation!
Ah, trapped in sweet denial!
Ashiraya wrote:I do not see them become touched by mind-controlling blood in that text.
Do you know what happens when marines go on a daemon world?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Drakes
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sentinels_%28Chapter%29
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_Excelsior
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Of course, if you really want mind-controlling blood and Sisters resisting its corrupting influence, we will need to talk about the Bloodtide, and how Sisters were corrupted by things that would have corrupted even the Grey Knights, and nobody wants to talk about the Bloodtide, right?
From the description on Lexicanicum, they did not even die  . The whole Red Corsair chapter is full of marines that defected without physical corruption! Automatically Appended Next Post: Finlandiaperkele wrote:Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter.
Obviously did not work.
Sisters do that much better than marines. Even going as far as decapitating their founder for the Imperium!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/20 18:55:22
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 20:05:37
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Finlandiaperkele wrote:Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination to Space Marines, that made them to put Imperium above anything else, even their own Chapter.
Obviously did not work.
Sisters do that much better than marines. Even going as far as decapitating their founder for the Imperium!
Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.
And how it didn't work? There has been no Astartes (or any kind) rebellion the size of Horus Heresy. Yes, there has been a few turning traitor, but it's mostly contained within a Company. A whole Chapter gone traitor is pretty unlikely, and extremely rare.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 20:15:24
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Finlandiaperkele wrote:Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.
Uh? The marines are zealous and religious-like, and the Sisters are quite military too. Not nearly that different.
I quoted a bunch of examples above. An Order gone traitor is unheard of. Or a preceptory. Actually, even ONE sister going traitor is a one of a kind event, if that ever happened.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 20:24:59
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
Strike Cruiser Vladislav Volkov
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ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 20:26:34
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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I quoted a bunch of examples above.
You didn't actually disprove anything by doing so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 20:55:37
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Finlandiaperkele wrote:Sisters are zealous and religious militant group. Marines are a pure military force. Their philosophy is completely different from each other.
Uh? The marines are zealous and religious-like, and the Sisters are quite military too. Not nearly that different.
Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth. Sisters are militaristic, but aren't a full fledged military force. You can't send 100 sisters to a planet and expect them to do as well as 100 marines could (well, you CAN, but don't get your hopes up).
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I quoted a bunch of examples above. An Order gone traitor is unheard of. Or a preceptory. Actually, even ONE sister going traitor is a one of a kind event, if that ever happened.
It doesn't disprove anything. And I never said that full Chapters can't go full traitor, but they rarely do, since there are always some who won't turn. Remember the Istvaan III.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/20 20:56:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 21:33:15
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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epronovost wrote:On the question of the abscence And They Shall Know No Fear, I would say it reflect a truth that can be bothering to Chaos Space Marines fans. If Space Marine are conditionned to have no fear (or at least the debilitating effect of it), their Chaos bretheren are just has immune to it. So why don't they have the special rule and will never have it? Because Chaos Space Marine are the exact opposite of the Sisters of Battle. They are willingly cowards at heart. A Sister knows fear, she was raised, trained, endoctrinated and submerged in a environnement that makes her has fearless an humen can be, but in extreme circomstances it can surface for a few critical seconds. For that you really need to push them to their last entrenchment and relentlessly bombard them with fear and trauma causing stimulus. Then a Sister may break in fear and flee for her life. For a Chaos Space Marines, it's the exact opposite. They virtualy know no fear, yet will break and flee in a disorganised fashion at the first sign something goes wrong for them. To a behavioral expert, the Chaos Space Marine would look at first like he is scared and run for is life. He do run for his life with no regard for his comrade, mission or honor, but he is not in panic. He genuily just want to get out of here ASAP. They hate tought fights, they will try to gain numerical advantages or superior ground or they will refuse to engage while Space Marines would on almost any circomstances. They don't stand their ground unless they really, really need to or have great incentives. Their favorite targets are civilians, crappy guardsmen or PDF and isolated target that can't fight back. Most of them are pirates and pillagers more than conquerors. Sure, they like to think themselves big, feared and powerful. But it's not really the truth and they know it. They are a shadow of their former selves. Only those with daemonic patronage ever amount to something good and these Chaos marines have the rule fearless. Chaos Marines are cowards at heart, but incredibly callous, cruel, bitter and brilliant at the same time. They are fething bastards and proud to be (most of the time). That's why they don't get And They Shall Know No Fear. It's also false to say that marines are completly fearless. Faced with supernatural horrors or impossibly powerful foes, they do loose their moral, their faith and sometimes their nerves. It's just so rare and strange that it doesn't really count.
In other words, they're cowards, but not cowards. They flee but do not flee. They are two sides of a blade, a face, and a crappy bolter.
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Adepta Sororitas: 3,800 Points
Adeptus Custodes: 8,100 Points
Adeptus Mechanicus: 8,400 Points
Alpha Legion: 4,400 Points
Astra Militarum: 7,500 Points
Dark Angels: 16,800 Points
Imperial Knights: 12,500 Points
Legio Titanicus: 5,500 Points
Slaaneshi Daemons: 3,800 Points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 22:56:29
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Iliu
I must admit it's a bit strange to talk in such terms. But that's what cowardice is. It's choosing to flee while you could stay and fight. Cowardice is a choice in my opinion. Fleeing in front of deadly dangers is not beeing coward. It's sanity and good judgement. Chaos Space Marines usually choose to run away even if they could stay and win with their sheer martial prowess and tactical acumen. They know no fear, but certainly act like cowards.
@Finlandiaperkele
Well if Sisters are recruited from a military academy, train in combat day and night, wear weapons, have tanks, a command structure, a hierarchie based on elitism, are schooled in strategie from Tactica Imperium, their own books and even large portion of the Codex Astartes, participate in wars, have rules of engagement and have standards of excellence, what do they need more to be soldiers? If Space Marines are soldiers (I don't think they are mind you) than Sisters certainly are (and I don't think they qualifie for that title either) and I don't think that this brings anything to the argument about fear and Chaos Marines vs Loyalist Marines. If we are to discuss who of the Sisters and Loyalist Marines are the braver I would say that doesn't make much difference. Has for corruptibility to the forces of Chaos, officialy only one Sister of Battle (maybe a few hundred if you want to sratch a lot) ever turned her back against the Imperium while more than a million marines did. I think that settles the issue quite nicely without any need to go further.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/20 23:06:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:21:12
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hallowed Canoness
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j31c3n wrote:ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.
Sisters have the marines discipline and then some more. And what about Eldars? Or Necrons?
Yeah, I know. Even giving you literally hundreds of examples of marines turning their cloak at the slightest breeze would not make you change your mind. Your minds are set, and nothing will change that.
Finlandiaperkele wrote:Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth.
Not religious? Marines believe that they must pray to the machine spirit for their vehicles to work  . They must oint their bolters in the sacred oils and other sacred stuff for them to work. They are as much bloody backward obscurantist superstitious as the rest of the Imperium. And then some more, usually. Why do you believe they call themselves brothers?
Oh yes, they are! It is their role.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:26:20
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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It's a difference of mindset, I think. When you are a Guardsman and Carnifexes have just nomnomnommed the rest of your squad, you fall back. As in, you drop your lasgun and flee in pants-wet terror. The commissar? The commissar would shoot you, but unfortunately only the commissar's gun arm is present - you're not sure which Tyranid ate the rest. The priest said the Emperor would protect you if you are faithful, five minutes before he died screaming after being shot by devourer maggots. Even your tank, the lynchpin of your squad's morale, has been torn apart by some aerial monstrosity the nature of which is best left to imagination. So you flee. You panic. You run. You have no thoughts for anything but getting out of there, anywhere but here. You scream or whimper as you run, desperately praying that you are somehow spared. You are well and truly broken. When you are a Chaos Space Marine and your squad is being charged by numerous Carnifexes, you fall back. As in, you turn riiight around and leg it with all the speed the Astartes are famous for, and if your squad has any wits they're doing the same, for you're not bothering with 'leave no one behind'. You do not fear the Carnifex. You do not panic. You do not wet any pants. You just know that the odds are very bad if you stand and fight, so you run. The Dark Apostle told you that the Gods will not protect you merely for being faithful, for the Gods do not suffer the weak or the foolish. You know that remaining would be foolish, so you don't. Whether it is out of dark zeal or desire to not die a meaningless death and eaten like a midday snack, you run away. The carnifex is not any more scary than a child's doll to you, but you are tactically and logically aware that they will eat you if given the chance, and that is not something you want. You want to be a Chaos Lord yourself one day, and getting eaten makes that harder. So you run. When you are a loyalist Space Marine and your squad is being attacked by Carnifexes, you spread out. You and your squad evade their slower attacks and try to keep them distracted so that your brothers can bring up heavy weapons. You know that it is risky. A missed step and you are condemned to the tank-long talons of the Carnifex. But you do not fear it. You do not even consider running to save your own life. If you retreat, it is because your Captain considered it tactically prudent, or to preserve your gene-seed for the apothecaries. Your own life means nothing in itself. The mission is what matters, and if the mission requires that you stall the Carnifexes, then you will even if it wipes out your squad to the last man. That is the difference between humans, loyalist Astartes and traitor Astartes. And that is why I think Chaos Space Marines deserve a different version of ATSKNF for their own units, for they are neither normal soldiers nor Space Marines when it comes to morale. They are just as fearless as Marines, they are just less devoted and willing to sacrifice themselves. There is a significant difference between abandoning all thought and legging it in panic, and running quickly but remaining fully calm and aware of your surroundings.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/02/21 00:33:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:30:02
Subject: Re:When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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The marines post codex are of much higher quality and training than those during heresy times with the exception of course for your better marines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:34:43
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Chaos Space Marines are not homogenous, and ten thousand years is a very long time.¨
You can't really measure CSM by the standards of 30k. They are no longer what they were.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:47:00
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: j31c3n wrote:ATSKNF isn't about fearlessness. It's about discipline. The traitor legions don't have loyalist discipline. If they did, they wouldn't have gone turncoat.
Sisters have the marines discipline and then some more. And what about Eldars? Or Necrons?
Yeah, I know. Even giving you literally hundreds of examples of marines turning their cloak at the slightest breeze would not make you change your mind. Your minds are set, and nothing will change that.
Finlandiaperkele wrote:Umm... Astartes aren't (generally) religious nor zealous. They are soldiers, and generally follow the Imperial Truth.
Not religious? Marines believe that they must pray to the machine spirit for their vehicles to work  . They must oint their bolters in the sacred oils and other sacred stuff for them to work. They are as much bloody backward obscurantist superstitious as the rest of the Imperium. And then some more, usually. Why do you believe they call themselves brothers?
Oh yes, they are! It is their role.
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 00:52:38
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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And ten thousand years is, I really must stress, a very long time. Hell, SoB did not even appear until M36, so they have not had nearly as much time on their hands. Six thousand years, too, is a very long time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/21 00:54:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 01:38:27
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Wyzilla wrote:
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.
Sorry to break it to you, but the number is much higher than that.
Yes, whole Chapters turning is rare, but individual marines/squads hell even companies... not really.
Not to say it's common-place, but it isn't rare (or as rare as you're saying it is).
Also, if you think a marine turns into a pansy when they turn to the Chaos Gods/go renegade you have no idea... you need to be strong of will to live in places like the Eye or the Maelstrom.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 05:32:14
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Matt.Kingsley wrote: Wyzilla wrote:
You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided. Also in the course of ten thousand years, only around fifty Adeptus Astartes Chapters have turned to Chaos thanks to the Codex.
Sorry to break it to you, but the number is much higher than that.
Yes, whole Chapters turning is rare, but individual marines/squads hell even companies... not really.
Not to say it's common-place, but it isn't rare (or as rare as you're saying it is).
Also, if you think a marine turns into a pansy when they turn to the Chaos Gods/go renegade you have no idea... you need to be strong of will to live in places like the Eye or the Maelstrom.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Legions_and_Warbands_%28List%29
There's less then a hundred recorded Chaos Space Marine warbands. While my initial statement was wrong, refreshing my memory on the list, there's 91 Chaos Space Marine Warbands that are traitors after the Horus Heresy. However, some of that number still may be founded from the already existing traitor legions. So somewhere around sixty to seventy known warbands (some of which weren't even entire Chapters).
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 06:17:01
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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So 91 warbands in the Lexicanum article... Oh, looks like only 250 marine chapters exist as that's all the named chapters in the Loyalist article! Also, not all marines that turn to chaos go and make their own warbands, often they join the more powerful ones. The Red Corsairs are made up of way more than just the initial, battered Astral Claws; so many that it's almost (if not) the size of a pre-heresy legion! Only ~200 are Astral Claws.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/21 06:49:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 06:44:16
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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holy crap marine fanboys.
The fact that the main Chaos-mortal faction is Traitor Space Marines and not Traitor Sororitas should tell you that the Sororitas have fallen less than the Space Marines.
Like, even discounting the Heresy, there's plenty of non-VotLW (i.e. non-heresy-era) Chaos Space Marines.
There's like NO Chaos sisters of battle.
Hell, every ten seconds I find out about some new SM chapter that was excommunicated or sent on a penance crusade or something.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 08:52:35
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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I think this thread just derailed a bit.
Long story short:
Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 13:33:15
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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No one has asserted otherwise, actually. Insulting other posters does not change this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0518/11/21 13:43:05
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Be fair, Ashi, its not often that people do give the Sisters that respect.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 14:16:45
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Finlandiaperkele
I think you don't what hypnotic indoctrination is. It's not a fantasy term to describe a super form of indoctrination. It's actualy a real practice and it has a definition and I may break another myth by doing so, but everyone in the Imperium may be subjected to hypnotic indoctrination at one point or another in their life. The pratice differs from indoctrination (which is basically just teaching consistantly something from an early age and foward it's not necessarly a bad thing). Hypnotic indoctrination is sending someone in a state of great weakness and guilibility using different strategy, repetion, enclosing environment, sleep deprivation, etc. and then teaching what you want to teach. The most common exemple of this in reallity is the droning religious chanting of many sect and fondamentalist mouvement and torturer's «interrogations». In the theocratic world of 40K, pretty much everybody is submitted to hypnotic indoctrination from an early age to enhance loyalty and faithfull behavior. So I don't think it's something new to the training of marines. I would more think that the adoption and creation of chaplain for evry 100 marines to insure studious religious practice, good training ritual and respect of tradition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 15:50:31
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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epronovost wrote:@Finlandiaperkele
I think you don't what hypnotic indoctrination is. It's not a fantasy term to describe a super form of indoctrination. It's actualy a real practice and it has a definition and I may break another myth by doing so, but everyone in the Imperium may be subjected to hypnotic indoctrination at one point or another in their life. The pratice differs from indoctrination (which is basically just teaching consistantly something from an early age and foward it's not necessarly a bad thing). Hypnotic indoctrination is sending someone in a state of great weakness and guilibility using different strategy, repetion, enclosing environment, sleep deprivation, etc. and then teaching what you want to teach. The most common exemple of this in reallity is the droning religious chanting of many sect and fondamentalist mouvement and torturer's «interrogations». In the theocratic world of 40K, pretty much everybody is submitted to hypnotic indoctrination from an early age to enhance loyalty and faithfull behavior. So I don't think it's something new to the training of marines. I would more think that the adoption and creation of chaplain for evry 100 marines to insure studious religious practice, good training ritual and respect of tradition.
I just pulled it from top of my head. The real term is psycho-indoctrination.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 16:11:07
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Finlandiaperkele
psycho-indoctrination is the exact same thing than psychosocial-inodctrination which is the act of indoctrinating a group of person together. So there is nothing special here. All soldiers from regular infantrie man to jetfighter to resistance fighter pass throught a form of psychosocial indoctrination to allow them to commit act of terrible violence with minimal psychological concequences. The training standards, strategies and technics of the Astartes from 30K and 40K aren't really different from those of elite soldiers like kasrkin, Scions, Sisters of Battle or Krieg's grenadiers or deathriders. They all are different, but in the end have very similar results. I stand by my point. Chaplains are the big difference between Crusade Marines, Chapter Marines and Chaos Space Marines. It's where I would look for the famous no retreat and fearless nature of loyalist Space Marines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/21 16:12:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 16:12:58
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ashiraya wrote:
No one has asserted otherwise, actually. Insulting other posters does not change this.
Well, the reason I mention this is that it would seem that faith is a far better deterrent to Chaos than ATSKNF, or hypno-indoctrination, or psycho-indoctrination, or military discipline.
I don't understand why most of the Marines don't have faith in the Emperor (except you lot, Black Templars. Good on ya!).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 16:26:27
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Unit1126PLL
Actually almost all Space Marines beside Space Wolves rever the Emperor, his Primarchs and their greatest heroes. They don't view them has gods, but more like ancestors that can guide, inspire and protect them. They litteraly hold a cult of personnality to the Emperor that they see like a man but treat like a god. It's more similar to ancient roman and etrusque religion than the more commonly understood form of religion like the one adopted by the Imperium at large (which is a form pseudo-catholisism with the Emperor has god and man). With that idea in mind, Space Marines are very religious indeed. I personnaly like Myria's explanation of the Space Marines weakness to explain their surprisingly large defection rate (considering their training and lifestyle).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/21 16:27:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/21 16:26:37
Subject: When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Finlandiaperkele wrote:Marines gained ATSKNF right after the HH was resolved, because Codex Astartes introduced the hypnotic indoctrination.
But the hypnotic indoctrination has been proven time and time in the fluff not to work!
Wyzilla wrote:You still have not provided evidence, meaning your entire point is voided.
What exactly do you want me to provide you with evidence of? I can only provide dozens of examples of marines falling to chaos for specious reasons. Sorry, that is all I can do. Can you show me many examples of them resisting to a lot of stress to turn to Chaos? Because else, my side is much more supported by the fluff than yours: Marines fall to Chaos super-easily.
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