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 Ashiraya wrote:
Where are our Legion Tactics?

Where are my orders tactics? Where are the craftworld, klans, dynasty, sept, … tactics? All hidden in the same place. See? Loyalist marines getting extra attention.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Our veteran skills?

Uh uh uh.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where are our dreadclaws aghaghagahgahgha

In ForgeWorld, no?

,, Clans, Oxy. Orks have clans.

-

No.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
,, Clans, Oxy. Orks have clans.

Oh? In French I think it is Klan. Maybe in English they are afraid of reminding people of the Ku Klux Klan ?

Pretty much.

When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?

Around 3rd edition, I believe...

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Fearless' is simply a unit or character that never backs down, no matter what. They do not withdraw even when it would be prudent.

ATSKNF is exactly what it sounds like. They know no fear. They can still withdraw if the situation calls for it, but it never breaks into a rout and they still calmly look to their own defenses as they pull back.

CSM should have at least Stubborn and arguably ATSKNF or Fearless (maybe to the last one though) to reflect how rock-hard you must be mentally to not only survive but dominate and thrive in the Eye of Terror.

If they aren't bothered by Eldritch Horrors™, then arguably a Riptide wouldn't be so scary either.

The lack of ATSKNF on HH Marines was probably because they were mass-produced at the time, putting less effort into each individual.

Chaos should be fearless. The entire army should be fearless.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

They are no more prone to fear than SM are fluffwise.

Not true.

The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

As far as the OP's question, they got it, essentially, from the Codex Astartes. The Codex laid out how Marines were to be recruited and selected, and trained, and much of that outlined how to remove the corrupting influences (self-interest and Primarchs) from the equation, and make the individual Marine's sole purpose to be in service of the Emprah.

ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure. More specifically, failing the Emperor and the Chapter. That's why Space Marines have it, and Chaos Marines do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aben Zin wrote:

When did Space Marines gain ATSKNF?

Around 3rd edition, I believe...

The rule was present in the 2nd Edition books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

They ran away at Terra. /shrug

The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere. Chaos Space Marines meanwhile are only self-serving and are more then willing to pull out if combat grows too dangerous and let allies take the hits for them to cover their retreat.

When CSM's fail leadership test, they aren't fleeing, they're simply saying 'feth this noise" and abandoning their posts.

 Ailaros wrote:
Uhh... why would chaos marines be fearless?

They broke out of their strict mental conditioning, and replaced it with...

...?

They replaced it with a blank space in their head where their brain used to be.

There's no reason why they don't have the sweep protection of the loyalists, though. CSM withdraw, but never abandon their personal defense as they do so.

The aftermath of Terra was a strategic withdrawal. CSM lacking the loyalist feelings of obligation does not make them more prone to fear, just less suicidal.

There is nothing in a tactical retreat that implies fear.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

 Wyzilla wrote:
The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere.

Hence the fluff about the Space Wolves turning traitor when their ship is captured.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's no reason why they don't have the sweep protection of the loyalists, though. CSM withdraw, but never abandon their personal defense as they do so.

The aftermath of Terra was a strategic withdrawal. CSM lacking the loyalist feelings of obligation does not make them more prone to fear, just less suicidal.

There is nothing in a tactical retreat that implies fear.

Right, and that goes for battle-hardened Imperial guardsmen, Eldar aspect warriors and probably just about every other elite warrior in the game.
Being swept does not mean abandoning your personal defence. If anything, it's the opposite - running away to save yourself and thus taking no further part in the battle. That can be due to fear. Or it can be due to simple self preservation.
If anything, Space Marines not being swept means they will stand their ground and fight against a foe that was already kicking their butts. It's willingly and selflessly jeopardizing their lives for the sake of the objective of the battle. That's what loyalist Space Marines do better than others.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

 Wyzilla wrote:
The difference between Loyalists and Chaos Space Marines is that Loyalists ultimately the Loyalists believe in a greater purpose. They're willing to die to the last man defending a hill if they think it will allow victory elsewhere.

Hence the fluff about the Space Wolves turning traitor when their ship is captured.

Do you understand the definition of outlier?

HH marines training was as fast as 2 years (in the case of the world eaters), its a fallacy that the legions got smaller as the war went on, it is also a fallacy that they will shrink after the heresy and not be able to replace lost marines, the legions in fact got larger during the heresy.

So chaos marines lacking ATSKNF in the heresy is most likely due to not actually having had the indoctrination, post heresy where marine recruitment was massively monitored and watched by the powers that be, I can understand how it would be enforced

 Wyzilla wrote:
Do you understand the definition of outlier?

Sure. Totally. Marines are less likely to turn their cloak or act out of fear for their personal safety, even though the fluff depicts them doing so much, much more often than they depict Sisters or Craftworld Eldars or…
But that is because outlier. The answer.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Do you understand the definition of outlier?

Sure. Totally. Marines are less likely to turn their cloak or act out of fear for their personal safety, even though the fluff depicts them doing so much, much more often than they depict Sisters or Craftworld Eldars or…
But that is because outlier. The answer.

Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Chaos Marines lack the greater sense of duty and purpose. 40K era Space Marines see things as Emperor, Chapter, Self. Chaos Marines are in things for themselves. And that's why they don't have ATSKNF.

Sisters see things as The Emperor, The Emperor, The Emperor, The Imperial Cult, The Adeptus Sororitas, the Order, the Ecclesiarchy, and then, maybe self. Not sure. Yet they do not have ATSKNF.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
ATSKNF is not about being fearless, like some people are confusing it to be. It's about fearing one specific thing above all else: failure.

Do you mean, like Sisters do?

Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The Ecclesiarchy's efforts make a good unquestioning, amoral, sociopathic shock trooper. But that's all it does. This disucssion is about the difference between loyal and traitor Space Marines, which are an entire tier above regular humans like Stormtroopers and Sisters.


Their faith gives the Sisters silly D&D cleric powers instead.

I feel like nobody here has read ANY of the Horus Heresy novels. There's a reason one of them is called "Know No Fear". The Space Marines literally thought they could not feel fear, I don't know where you guys are getting this " Legion Marines know fear" thing.

 Formosa wrote:
HH marines training was as fast as 2 years (in the case of the world eaters), its a fallacy that the legions got smaller as the war went on, it is also a fallacy that they will shrink after the heresy and not be able to replace lost marines, the legions in fact got larger during the heresy.

Wat?

Have you actually read any of the books? These were a series of brutal, bloody engagements, culminating in a frontal assault on the most heavily defended system in the galaxy. There's no chance the Legions were recruiting a rate that offset their losses, and the fluff specifically countermands this idea. But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol. What, do you think that legion on legion combat at Isvaan reduced the Sallies, RG and IH by 90% or more, but legion on legion combat at Terra would be just a minor fracass with light sparring and minimal casualties? Heck, the Collected Visions mentions that the loyalists "slaughtered thousands" just in the retreat after Horus died, 55 days into the siege.

Not trying to be harsh. Just have to make sure other impressionable, less well read posters here don't read what you wrote and think there's even a remote, tiny modicum of truth to it, lol. The Horus Heresy shattered the Legions, both loyal and traitor. So much so that there were more Ultramarines than there were all other kinds of Space Marines combined, simply because the Ultramarines hadn't been hit as hard as everyone else and thus were able to recover quicker. And that takes into account the losses at Calth. Why would the fluff specifically make a big deal about how the Ultramarines were "largely unscathed" if everyone else was just peachy and stronger than ever? If the Traitor legions had actually gotten larger after the Heresy, why would the Heresy have ended simply with the death of Horus? Why would the traitors flee to the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom and other hiding places unless they were suddenly outnumbered and disorganized?

I got the impression from almost every kind of text that Space Marines didn't know the fear which somehow would have them perform worse on the battlefield, but then the two stories come around: one with Space Wolves not fighting to their deaths but instead cornered and turned traitor (I'm a Chaos fan and I think that's a lame excuse - normal boarding battle, why not fight to their deaths?) and one with an Imperial Fist feeling fear according to Konrad Kurze - and again a strange ill explained example of a Space Marine feeling fear.

I'm almost inclined to dismiss these two examples entirely as they seem so far off comparing with all other background.

I can understand that some rare renegade Space Marines shouldn't have And They Shall Know No Fear if they follow no cause and just thought that the Emperor and Imperium of Man were no good for him, but Chaos Space Marines overall have as much purpose, dedication to a cause, honour and pride as a loyalist, which would lead to as much selflessness as a loyalist Space Marine shows.

Though saying this some background maybe should be ignored as Chaos Space Marines have been depicted by shallow authors more and more like the simple antagonist we've seen so often: no honour or selflessness (these belong to the good guys) and more thoughtless rage without purpose shown by the minions and only the leader being somewhat interesting which for example is seen in the movie Ultramarines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:



Their faith gives the Sisters silly D&D cleric powers instead.

Only if your own source is an idiotic book that also gives them civilian equipment and makes them have to earn the helmets to their substandard power armour.

Besides, Faith did give them a kind of pseudo-ATSKNF up until the very most recent codex. The ability to become Fearless at the start of any turn before regroup checks are rolled does exactly the same thing, except for the sweep protection... and sweep protection is stupid, because you don't get swept because you're running slipshod, you get swept because you can't move out of combat quickly and defend yourself at the same time.

I mean... being disciplined and fearless does not automatically grant you Spring Attack.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

Sorry, it comes from Codex: Chaos Space Marine 4th edition, apparently:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris
Do you really want me to find you every occasion of marines turning traitors in the fluff?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The marines are hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans. As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze, unlike Sisters. And then, they loose ATSKNF. Makes sense? Not to me.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol.

Applying common sense to 40k will destroy 40k . It is and will stay silly and over-the-top. Not sensible. Anyhow, I am pretty sure he meant the recruitment during the great crusade before the heresy, rather than during the heresy. Else I agree it is just too silly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze.

Commonly spewed copypasta that has no basis in reality.

Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources (something SoB is not immune to either) than the far more fallible Guardsmen do. SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.

The notion that Marines turn traitor easily has been mindlessly repeated until some people think it's true (like the 'Space Marines are too few to do their job' bullgak) but it remains false.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Then cite every single time it's happened, because I've never seen such events outside of Imperial Armor being Imperial Armor.

Sorry, it comes from Codex: Chaos Space Marine 4th edition, apparently:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris
Do you really want me to find you every occasion of marines turning traitors in the fluff?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Because Sisters are still just regular humans, taught in a school by psychotic nuns. They're not hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans.

The marines are hypno-conditioned, biologically altered post-humans. As a result, they turn to Chaos at the slightest breeze, unlike Sisters. And then, they loose ATSKNF. Makes sense? Not to me.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But you shouldn't even need the fluff, common sense countermands that idea, lol.

Applying common sense to 40k will destroy 40k . It is and will stay silly and over-the-top. Not sensible. Anyhow, I am pretty sure he meant the recruitment during the great crusade before the heresy, rather than during the heresy. Else I agree it is just too silly.

Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.

Space Marines have ATSKNF because they are selfless. They will readily lay down their lives to protect their brothers. This is why they cannot be swept.
Chaos Space Marines are far more selfish, they'd sooner throw the rest of their squad under the bus and so any fallback is every man for himself.

Codex Chaos Space Marines 3e wrote:The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefore does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away.

... Animus, really? Did you just say "Space Marines don't die because they sacrifice their lives to protect each other"?

'cause... you have to see the logical fallacy in that...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Animus, really? Did you just say "Space Marines don't die because they sacrifice their lives to protect each other"?

'cause... you have to see the logical fallacy in that...

Not really, a Marine will stay back to cover his brothers.
Chaos Marines will just leg it.

On the question of the abscence And They Shall Know No Fear, I would say it reflect a truth that can be bothering to Chaos Space Marines fans. If Space Marine are conditionned to have no fear (or at least the debilitating effect of it), their Chaos bretheren are just has immune to it. So why don't they have the special rule and will never have it? Because Chaos Space Marine are the exact opposite of the Sisters of Battle. They are willingly cowards at heart. A Sister knows fear, she was raised, trained, endoctrinated and submerged in a environnement that makes her has fearless an humen can be, but in extreme circomstances it can surface for a few critical seconds. For that you really need to push them to their last entrenchment and relentlessly bombard them with fear and trauma causing stimulus. Then a Sister may break in fear and flee for her life. For a Chaos Space Marines, it's the exact opposite. They virtualy know no fear, yet will break and flee in a disorganised fashion at the first sign something goes wrong for them. To a behavioral expert, the Chaos Space Marine would look at first like he is scared and run for is life. He do run for his life with no regard for his comrade, mission or honor, but he is not in panic. He genuily just want to get out of here ASAP. They hate tought fights, they will try to gain numerical advantages or superior ground or they will refuse to engage while Space Marines would on almost any circomstances. They don't stand their ground unless they really, really need to or have great incentives. Their favorite targets are civilians, crappy guardsmen or PDF and isolated target that can't fight back. Most of them are pirates and pillagers more than conquerors. Sure, they like to think themselves big, feared and powerful. But it's not really the truth and they know it. They are a shadow of their former selves. Only those with daemonic patronage ever amount to something good and these Chaos marines have the rule fearless. Chaos Marines are cowards at heart, but incredibly callous, cruel, bitter and brilliant at the same time. They are fething bastards and proud to be (most of the time). That's why they don't get And They Shall Know No Fear. It's also false to say that marines are completly fearless. Faced with supernatural horrors or impossibly powerful foes, they do loose their moral, their faith and sometimes their nerves. It's just so rare and strange that it doesn't really count.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines turning traitor has a disproportionately high amount of focus because Marines in general have the same, and because they suffer far more exposure to involuntary physical corruption sources

Yeah, except that many many marines turn without any kind of physical corruption sources. Say relictors to me, for instance. Or I already mentioned the Wolf of Fenris. What about the Red Corsairs? Or the Silver Guards and Sons of Vengeance? Or the Savage Swords? Brothers of the Anvil?
(And do not tell me that the Relictors were corrupted by the artifacts. They were corrupted by their lust for power )

 Ashiraya wrote:
SoB fight comparatively non-dangerous foes like traitor guardsmen far more often. You bet that if the SoB had done the same mission as the Emperor's Wolves, their fate would be the same.

Uh uh.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because unless you can prove a trend, then it's an outlier and irrelevant.

Unless you can provide an example of marines dying to the last when offered to instead join Chaos, I have one more example than you do .