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A question that came up when I reviewed the Chaos dex and began to wonder why the Traitor Legions don't have the rule. If the line of thought is none of the marines had it back during the Heresy era then when exactly did they gain it and how? I mean the infrastructure and support was there for the legions to get the necessary training and psychomanipulation that I guess Is required to impart that ability during the Great Crusade. In fact I would say the very real need for it arose in that era and the Emperor's quote that personifies the rule comes from this era, yet no, it does not seem to have occurred then. So when did it happen? After the heresy when the imperium is fractured and in the grip of the wars that brought it back from the brink and drove the traitors off? Was it during another time frame? And why? IF they did not gain it during the height of their ascendancy in the Imprrium of Man, and if we are led to believe there was a long period of developmental stasis how they develop this new capability that the Emperor was unable to provide?

If they did possess it in the heresy era then how did the traitors lose it? Why do the recent traitors who go rogue lose it? What is the mechanism that makes them lose an ability that is so fundamental in their nature, and more importantly would prove useful for shock troops of the ruinous powers. Is it implied to be a blessing from the emperor so that when you fall from grace you lose it too? My reading of the Horus Heresy novels seems to imply they have it already since I cannot recall any passages where a legionnaire displays any fear.

I am unfamiliar with the 30k game so perhaps some of these questions are answered in that fluff but I am curious.

The theory is that loyalist Marines have no fear, because they have ultimate faith in the manifest destiny of space marinetude or something, while traitors don't have ATSKNF because they've seen enough of how the universe really works to realise that they're quite mortal, really.

Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

They are no more prone to fear than SM are fluffwise.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The theory is that loyalist Marines have no fear, because they have ultimate faith in the manifest destiny of space marinetude or something, while traitors don't have ATSKNF because they've seen enough of how the universe really works to realise that they're quite mortal, really.

Then why don't Tau have ATSKNF? They fully believe in the Greater Good...

Because they are 'just' zealous.

They are not psycho-indoctrinated and hypno-conditioned.

Which is also why SoB are entirely prone to break into a rout and get run down in fear.

CCCC:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

I reckon when they read the Codex Astartes they gain the ATSKNF perk. Stay in school kids!

 Ailaros wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

Well, this is a good point, but I think it would make a lot of sense for CSMs to all be fearless then. And not have to pay for it. Or maybe make the Veterans of the Long War special rule give them Fearless.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought ATSKNF was a product of the codex astartes.

Before the heresy, space marines fought in battle however their primarchs told them to. To prevent this kind of nonsense leading to heresy again, Guillman decided that every space marine should be trained the same way. And that said training should include extensive anti-heresy indoctrination.

Before, they were trained physically and in the art of war. After, they were trained mentally to keep the heresy itch at bay. A byproduct of mental conditioning that caused discipline to trump emotion was a general fearlessness on the battlefield.

But ATSKNF, I thought, was one of those many, many over-reactions to the heresy that defined the early days of the Imperium.

Well, this is a good point, but I think it would make a lot of sense for CSMs to all be fearless then. And not have to pay for it. Or maybe make the Veterans of the Long War special rule give them Fearless.

More Fear-ignoring is really not warranted, and Fearless also makes the unit unable to break from a combat, and CSM aren't exactly mindlessly violent as far as I'm concerned...

If just SM and CSM both had Stubborn...

Uhh... why would chaos marines be fearless?

They broke out of their strict mental conditioning, and replaced it with...

...?

Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

nope it's the emperor

exact quote is

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
.

To answer the OP question, the 30k legion stuff from forge world doesn't have ATSNKF, so traitors didn't lose it, they just didn't gain it in the first place.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E

nope it's the emperor

'Fearless' is simply a unit or character that never backs down, no matter what. They do not withdraw even when it would be prudent.

ATSKNF is exactly what it sounds like. They know no fear. They can still withdraw if the situation calls for it, but it never breaks into a rout and they still calmly look to their own defenses as they pull back.

CSM should have at least Stubborn and arguably ATSKNF or Fearless (maybe to the last one though) to reflect how rock-hard you must be mentally to not only survive but dominate and thrive in the Eye of Terror.

If they aren't bothered by Eldritch Horrors™, then arguably a Riptide wouldn't be so scary either.

The lack of ATSKNF on HH Marines was probably because they were mass-produced at the time, putting less effort into each individual.

 Manchu wrote:
Isn't ATSKNF quoting Big E rather than Guilliman?

Well, the quote is. Leave it to the Imperium to take something the Emperor once said and turn it not only into religious dogma, but literal combat doctrine.

In any case, it's going to be very different than the fractious, undisciplined, chaotic rabble that chaos space marines are. They don't have the discipline or much of the gear. They only have the blessings of the chaos gods, which would definitely NOT make them fearless. At least, not until they half merged with their deity and entered a state of psychotic rage equally as dehumanizing as the space marine's daily dose of humanity stripping.

 Ailaros wrote:
In any case, it's going to be very different than the fractious, undisciplined, chaotic rabble that chaos space marines are. They don't have the discipline or much of the gear. They only have the blessings of the chaos gods, which would definitely NOT make them fearless. At least, not until they half merged with their deity and entered a state of psychotic rage equally as dehumanizing as the space marine's daily dose of humanity stripping.

Uh what?

Most Chaos Space Marine warbands are not disorganised and undisciplined. They are extremely brutal but they are also ruthlessly professional. They have managed extremely efficient, vast and quick acts of genocide that other races could not dream of without resorting to orbital weapons. (See the Purge). In fact, said genocide was not even brutal slaughter in direct combat, it was incredibly effective and efficient use of chemical weapons. Disorganised savages don't pull off stuff like that.

Even the World Eaters, infamous for their bloodlust, are perfectly calm and thinking outside of direct combat.

As said, constant exposure to the horrors of the Eye and emerging not only alive but thriving takes some serious willpower.

I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power.

There are some but they are firmly in minority. The Chaos Space Marines as a whole are very good and skilled at what they are doing.

ImAGeek wrote:I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds.

Yeah, that's just silly. There's nothing disciplined about chaos warbands. Everyone's only in it for themselves.

You can get a pale shadow of the idea of unity in a chaos army when they're all devoted to a single god, but given that said god is likely to encourage infighting or use them for their own petty ends...

Given that your average chaos space marine has the same level of discipline as a mere imperial guard sergeant, there's nothing professional or disciplined about them on the tabletop either.

ImAGeek wrote:But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Why?

Chaos space marines have survived at all, much less for this long, because they know when to run away and fight another day.

Unless they're brain-slaves of a chaos god, but that's another matter.

 Ailaros wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds.

Yeah, that's just silly. There's nothing disciplined about chaos warbands. Everyone's only in it for themselves.

You can get a pale shadow of the idea of unity in a chaos army when they're all devoted to a single god, but given that said god is likely to encourage infighting or use them for their own petty ends...

[citation needed]

To be fair, needing citation goes both ways.

And Ailaros, knowing when to run away (fall back) sounds a bit like ATSNKF...

ATSKNF is indeed the difference between controlled retreats and panicked routs.

As for examples of my own words, we can take anything from the sieges of the Iron Warriors, the masterful raids of the Red Corsairs, the carefully planned Death Guard-caused zombie incursions, every Black Crusade...

Chaos Marines are brutal and merciless but they very rarely abandon tactics and strategy.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say they do, I just don't think professional is the word I'd use. Theyre in general more disorganised than imperial forces, I think just due to everyone wanting power (the majority of them anyway). They wouldn't work as well together as they could. They're still a brutal fighting force that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of, but they aren't professional.

That's why Abbadon is such a good leader, because he's managed to organise very very large forces of chaos 12/13 times, which is no mean feat.

They are much more selfish than loyalists, but they are not stupid either. They know the value of efficiency. The major difference to loyalists is the fact that CSM often fight one another for dominance, but this never happens near a battlefield where there's loyalists to kill.

i dont think CSM have ATSKNF due to the fact that falling into chaos has degraded their morality, discipline. they are now selfish and careless about each other.

when the going gets tough on the field of battle, they probably go for each their own.

which should be the rule CSMs get.

For Each Their Own - upon failing a morale, pinning test, all units with this special rule will beat feet and get the F&^k out of dodge because...why not? who are chaos fighting for?

There wasn't ATSKNF during the Heresy. So CSM never had it.

ATSKNF represents the effect of the Codex Astartes and the legacy of being loyalists following the Heresy.

Post Heresy, Marines likely stepped up the indoctrination and hypnotherapy to make the marines more loyal. This resulted in them being less prone to running away from fights.

Chaos Marines don't have this rule because they've fallen to chaos and lack any deep motivations except their own personal motivations. One of which might be self-preservation, hence they'll be more likely to run away. Some are of course driven mad by Chaos or they're survivors of the Heresy itself, and thus are fearless by dint of pure hatred, pride, or just insanity.

They got it after the heresy for being space marines, they didn't have it during the heresy so the lesser space marines didn't know they would be missing out until it was too late.

Though it looks like it's meant to represent some of their codex training, lesser adhering chapters like BT, SW, BA, still have that training somewhat anyway. I have no idea why the chaos space marines can't have it, you'd think they'd all at least have fearless instead to represent a lack of fear over being trained to control fear.

Well you can buy them VotLW. Which represents those marines being Heresy veterans. Otherwise they're marines who turned traitor afterwards, and the process of turning traitor means they've lost the mental fortitude that being loyal Imperial Space Marines grants.