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It still doesn't make sense. I can get that they look after themselves first and foremost but they don't become more cowardly because of the loyalty shift. In-game, though, they are.

They may be unlikely to sacrifice themselves for the cause like loyalists will, but they won't rout before something scary. If they know said scary is too much, they will withdraw, but if it isn't they can stand and fight without being bothered by its scariness. The rules fail to reflect this.

The rules fail to reflect a lot of things for chaos unfortunately.

Is it really surprising that the traitors lack the resolve of the loyal Space Marines? I mean, that is exactly why they are traitors after all.

Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

More common seems to be a very different type of corruption, such as the fate of the Abyssal Crusade.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It still doesn't make sense. I can get that they look after themselves first and foremost but they don't become more cowardly because of the loyalty shift. In-game, though, they are.

They may be unlikely to sacrifice themselves for the cause like loyalists will, but they won't rout before something scary. If they know said scary is too much, they will withdraw, but if it isn't they can stand and fight without being bothered by its scariness. The rules fail to reflect this.

Again, ATSKNF wasn't a SM trait until after the HH. CSM can't have a trait that didn't exist at the time. According to 30k not even the loyal SM legions have that rule. The different Legions have a rule that's called "Legiones Astartes" and have unique traits depending on their Legion.

That's probably because you cant sweep a unit with ATSKNF... HH is all about marines vs more marines. It would be a boring assault phase. every damn turn.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it is. Corruption comes in many ways, and I have never ever heard of Space Marines who became Chaos Space Marines by fleeing from something because it's scary.

More common seems to be a very different type of corruption, such as the fate of the Abyssal Crusade.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're fleeing in fear. its more that CSM are a little more selfish. They're not interested in dying in battle necessarily, they're out for their own advancement. You can't gain power and glory if you're dead. So them not being fearless or pseudo-fearless represents the fact that they'll bug out if things appear to be going bad. "Screw this, I'm not dying here!"

Being swept in game doesn't mean the entire unit died, either. It could be that the survivors decided to abandon the fight and activated personal teleporters, decided to go find a good cave to hide in, or simply fled the engagement area.

While some of the survivors were probably gunned or cut down by those chasing them, why should the rest care as Chaos Marines? Those other guys were probably not worthy to serve the Dark Gods, anyways.

While Loyalists will probably break off and cover their brothers as they retreat, taking turns turning to shoot covering fire and running away. Their hypno-indoctrination undoubtedly also forces them to stay in the field and die to the last man, rather than leaving the battlefield. (Not to mention the scorn and disdain they'd get from their fellow brothers for quitting the field as loyalist marines! That's how you get blackshields in the Deathwatch >.&gt

Indeed, all it means is that the unit is broken and will no longer participate in the battle. Most of the members would likely survive, they're just bugging out or hiding nearby till its safe to move about.

Because having no fear is a result of brainwashing, which has obviously broken down in the case of traitor marines. Or they wouldn't be traitors.


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Traitor marines have become people again. Loyalist marines have systematically had their humanity eliminated in order to make them into killing machines.


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They're not brave. They're emotionally mutilated is what they are.

I think this has already been mentioned, but 30k is purely Marine-on-Marine, and thus ATSKNF would be pretty redundant and worthless since literally EVERYBODY would have it. If you guys want example of Heresy-era warriors knowing no fear, in False Gods, you have Loken talking to a remembrancer about whether oR not the concept of fear has been bred out of the Legiones Astartes, and I'm not going quote hunting right now because it's late, i'll find it tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody, i hope you have bloody, glorious dreams

And since all those points about gameplay are pretty revealing, you have to say that space marines got ATSKNF in 1998. Before then, I don't think no they had that particular "special" morale. Maybe I reveal inexperience.

Depending on the author, space marines do not feel fear. I always took ATSKNF as breaking from combat and left it like that. In my mind, I picture marines dying to hold ground while chaos space marines would just break to leave combat as they really owe no one anything.
However, this is clearly one of those instances where the rules do not reflect the fluff. I weep thinking about a guard player that has to buy enough guardsmen to take out a single chaos space marine if you were going to make it fluffy.

I imagine it wasn't so much to do with the codex astartes, and more to do with the rise of the ecclesiarchy - turning the Emperor into a god and such.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Yea but look at how organized the Dark Eldar are; they're also all in it for themselves and trying to win power. With CSMs you have SMs who turned to Chaos but they've still been at war for their entire existence. Being a professional is simply being very good at what it is you do. How else would you describe the Alpha Legion for example?

Maybe the ATSKNF has more to do with conviction and in wholly believing in their cause. That wouldn't apply to all CSMs (like the Night Lords for example, who are only out their to brutalize people).

 dusara217 wrote:
I think this has already been mentioned, but 30k is purely Marine-on-Marine, and thus ATSKNF would be pretty redundant and worthless since literally EVERYBODY would have it. If you guys want example of Heresy-era warriors knowing no fear, in False Gods, you have Loken talking to a remembrancer about whether oR not the concept of fear has been bred out of the Legiones Astartes, and I'm not going quote hunting right now because it's late, i'll find it tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody, i hope you have bloody, glorious dreams

I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wouldn't use the word professional for chaos warbandds. They are pretty disorganised and ad hoc, for the most part. It's what happens when you have a force made up of people who are totally in it for themselves and trying to win power. But I agree that exposure to Chaos would make them pretty fearless.

Yea but look at how organized the Dark Eldar are; they're also all in it for themselves and trying to win power. With CSMs you have SMs who turned to Chaos but they've still been at war for their entire existence. Being a professional is simply being very good at what it is you do. How else would you describe the Alpha Legion for example?

Maybe the ATSKNF has more to do with conviction and in wholly believing in their cause. That wouldn't apply to all CSMs (like the Night Lords for example, who are only out their to brutalize people).

Oh I was thinking professional more from like how you do what you do ('professionalism in the workplace' kinda thing). I don't think a CSM would be adverse to letting their comrades die to cover their ass especially if they thought they'd stand to gain, which isn't overly professional, for example.

May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

I always thought it has something to do with their resolve at the end of the Heresy. The Imperium saw them for the worst that they could be and at the 2nd founding they were born anew. It was to show that they would never falter in their responsibilities to the Imperium and the Emperor and the fear of failing this duty. After the Heresy the Astartes have a hell of a lot to prove so it's sort of a war cry and belief that they will not and must not ever fail again. It's a fear born of failure, one that they must always strive to overcome. Nothing can change the past, no matter how many wars you win or lives you save.

Chaospling wrote:
May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

Eldar are biologically capable of fear. They are confident but their brains will trigger the fear reactions when it is applicable, even if they are quite resistant to panic.

Astartes are not.

 Inkubas wrote:
Depending on the author, space marines do not feel fear. I always took ATSKNF as breaking from combat and left it like that. In my mind, I picture marines dying to hold ground while chaos space marines would just break to leave combat as they really owe no one anything.
However, this is clearly one of those instances where the rules do not reflect the fluff. I weep thinking about a guard player that has to buy enough guardsmen to take out a single chaos space marine if you were going to make it fluffy.

Depending on the source: 2.4 to 100+ I guess..

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh I was thinking professional more from like how you do what you do ('professionalism in the workplace' kinda thing). I don't think a CSM would be adverse to letting their comrades die to cover their ass especially if they thought they'd stand to gain, which isn't overly professional, for example.

Yea I guess they're not overly professional when it comes to watching out for each other. But when it comes to getting the job done then they do it extremely well.

Chaospling wrote:
May I ask, in relation to flee, be scared, being an extremely professional warrior/soldier - aren't Eldar Aspect warriors roughly at the same level as (Chaos) Space Marines? According to the background/lore of course...

Similar but the Space Marines are probably on another tier because of the psycho-indoctrination and as well as inherent stubbornness from the gene-seed. They also don't have to worry about their soul being consumed by Slaanesh if their spirit stone is lost. Exarchs are probably on the same level though.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I always thought it has something to do with their resolve at the end of the Heresy. The Imperium saw them for the worst that they could be and at the 2nd founding they were born anew. It was to show that they would never falter in their responsibilities to the Imperium and the Emperor and the fear of failing this duty. After the Heresy the Astartes have a hell of a lot to prove so it's sort of a war cry and belief that they will not and must not ever fail again. It's a fear born of failure, one that they must always strive to overcome. Nothing can change the past, no matter how many wars you win or lives you save.

Certainly makes a lot of sense! The CSM are in it more out of revenge so their resolve probably isn't as strong. Not that they're not effective at what they do.

They never "gained" ATSKNF. It just helps out the kids playing marines.
GW knows, that there are 14 year old customers. Space Marines are for those.
A tactical squad with rocket launcher, flamer and powersword/fist is the happy meal for 40k.
You don't need to worry about cover of your enemys - frag granades
You don't need to worry about cover for you marines - 3+
You don't need to worry about vehicels - krak granades, ML
You don't need to memorize the profile: 1 wound, 1 attack, everything else is 4
And of course you don't need to learn this morale stuff - you just ignore it.
And thanks to a drop pod you don't have to think where to put your marines in the first place. You just put them wherever you want them on the board.

It is really not about some space marine evolution - it's about marines being kid friendly.

30k is not for kids. So no need for ATSKNF.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

Loken was wrong. It has been stated many times that Space Marines can feel fear.

It has been stated, but becoming broken in-game does not necessarily mean turning tail and fleeing. It can simply mean a more-or-less disordered fighting retreat, being pushed back in the face of overwhelming resistance and unable to follow the orders of their commander (the player), with the chance of regrouping later if your fighting strength hasn't been too diminished. It doesn't mean cowardice or incompetence.
ATSKNF means a highly ordered fighting retreat. It shows greater discipline and loyalty (or brainwashing, if you prefer) to your brothers, which is the advantage loyalists have over the somewhat more selfish traitors (and everybody else in the game). Part of that discipline can ultimately be traced back to the Codex Astartes.

tgjensen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I remember that scene. Loken explains that SM inherently know no fear. It doesn't exist for them. No psychological neurochemical fear reaction. They are biologically incapable of it. That should give ATSKNF, I feel.

Loken was wrong. It has been stated many times that Space Marines can feel fear.

It has been stated, but becoming broken in-game does not necessarily mean turning tail and fleeing. It can simply mean a more-or-less disordered fighting retreat, being pushed back in the face of overwhelming resistance and unable to follow the orders of their commander (the player), with the chance of regrouping later if your fighting strength hasn't been too diminished. It doesn't mean cowardice or incompetence.
ATSKNF means a highly ordered fighting retreat. It shows greater discipline and loyalty (or brainwashing, if you prefer) to your brothers, which is the advantage loyalists have over the somewhat more selfish traitors (and everybody else in the game). Part of that discipline can ultimately be traced back to the Codex Astartes.

Loken is not wrong, his statement is canon. Who would know better than Loken himself, who just had seen one of his friends become a Daemon and did not feel fear from the experience?

Whatever source you have for SM apparently fearing fear is not more canon than Horus Rising.


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 von Hohenstein wrote:
They never "gained" ATSKNF. It just helps out the kids playing marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Loken is not wrong, his statement is canon. Who would know better than Loken himself, who just had seen one of his friends become a Daemon and did not feel fear from the experience?

Whatever source you have for SM apparently fearing fear is not more canon than Horus Rising.[/spoiler]

The Dark King, by Graham McNeil. A short story that is part of the Horus Heresy series as well. In it, Curze, via his psychic abilities senses the fear of an Imperial Fist that he preys upon. But it's not about the validity of the book, it's about the reliability of the character. I'll take the inner thoughts of a Primarch over the propaganda espoused by a Legionnaire.

About Marines not feeling fear - I don't believe that's the case. They don't feel debilitating fear, fear that would be counterproductive. That sort of fear is what their psychointodrtination has made them able to control through meditation, while regular fears (fear of desth, fear of not being a good and loyal Marine) remains. Without those, they couldn't function at all. Nothing would matter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah, it's just CSM getting shafted.

The CSM are not the one getting shafted. It is just the loyalist getting an undeserved fluffwise boost over EVERYONE ELSE.

Where are our Legion Tactics?

Our veteran skills?

Where is Ahriman's Divination?

Where are our dreadclaws aghaghagahgahgha

Again, Melee would absolutely suck in 30k if everybody had ATSKNF, as it's purely Marine-on-Marine combat. Now, if they were to introduce, say, some aliens into it (make it Great Crusade as well as Horus Heresy), then the they would probably give the Space Marines ATSKNF.