So based off the loyalist version of this thread, which traitor Primarch do you think was the worst general? I think it has to be Angron. As soon as the nails took over he just rushed ahead of his legion, and half the time didn't even know where he was (he burrowed himself into the ground in Betrayer because he went that crazy). He's a good fighter but in terms of leading a legion...well he doesn't.
He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.
Well, both Magnus and Curze basically laid back and said "go ahead, Loyalist, I don't mind at all if you kill me."
Mortarion's primary strategic idea was "I have extra dudes."
Alpharius enjoyed making battle harder than necessary.
Fulgrim managed t get possessed by a sword and turned into a painting or something, I'm still not really sure what was going on there, but he was the only Traitor to have so many ... complications.
Horus gambled big and lost hard, completely underestimating the Loyalists and his father.
And neither Lorgar or Perturabo even liked being generals.
But everyone's going to pick Angron. Not because he was ineffective, but because people think he was a crazed berserker.
(As in the other thread, there is no "worst general," except by flawed standards of measurement, such as "total number of compliances" during the Crusade. That standard, by the way, would make Alpharius the worst, which is completely absurd.)
ImAGeek wrote: He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.
Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight
Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.
ImAGeek wrote: He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.
Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight
Well I didn't mean that but I can see how it can be read that way, but it doesn't change my point. He did still burrow his way into the ground because he'd lost his mind that much, someone that crazed is in no way a general, let alone a good one.
Because at least Angron was a known berserker, and did things befitting a crazed berserker. Magnus was supposed to be an intelligent sorcerer, with vasts amounts of knowledge and years of studying. Yet when he was told that no psyker activity was to take place, he still sends a message using the warp. Then he pretty much gives up to the wolves. I mean if you are that smart, figure something out. Show some ingenuity or creativity to save your people. Instead he screws his people over and then fails to lead them.
Well I didn't mean that but I can see how it can be read that way, but it doesn't change my point. He did still burrow his way into the ground because he'd lost his mind that much, someone that crazed is in no way a general, let alone a good one.
He forgot the spit test
ImAGeek wrote: Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...
That's true, as the Nails aren't messing with his brain anymore in the same way.
Because at least Angron was a known berserker, and did things befitting a crazed berserker. Magnus was supposed to be an intelligent sorcerer, with vasts amounts of knowledge and years of studying. Yet when he was told that no psyker activity was to take place, he still sends a message using the warp. Then he pretty much gives up to the wolves. I mean if you are that smart, figure something out. Show some ingenuity or creativity to save your people. Instead he screws his people over and then fails to lead them.
He didn't really have a choice but to send a message using the Warp. He was trying to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal, and that was the only way he could do so in time. He did happen to mess up the Emperors webway experiment but his reasons for using the warp were sound. He gives up on the Wolves because of his guilt and he feels like he deserves his punishment, not because he's a bad general.
Redcruisair wrote: Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?
I imagine so. I don't actually know much about 40k fluff but I can't imagine Daemon Angron had anymore tactical sense than mortal Angron. But he did plan the Armageddon thing, although I'm sure he planned stuff in 30k too, just his plan always was 'lets just rush 'em'. And youndont need to be a general to plan that
Lorgar before he was rebuked didn't want to be a general, but after they were rebuked at Monarchia, the Word Bearers actually started to catch up with the other Primarchs in terms of compliances in the 50 years between then and the heresy. I think when he put his mind to it he was as good and the others, it just wasn't what he wanted to be doing.
Looking at Istvaan III and the stunt Angron pulled which most certainly ended up dragging the conflict into the long drawn out battle it ended up being, plus his renowned nature of just diving into the fight for the sake of a fight...
Angron definitely. A giant pain in Horus's neck that Horus just had to put up with. Almost certainly more attributed to the Butcher Nails more than anything but Angron for certain.
If Angron hadn't gotten the Butcher Nails or somehow overcame them (outside of daemonic ascension), I think I would have chosen Lorgar judging from what I've heard about "Know No Fear"
ImAGeek wrote: Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.
Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."
He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.
ImAGeek wrote: Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.
Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."
He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.
Angron definitely is a bad general. He's basically not a general, he's just another World Eater. He didn't lead his legion. Their strategies were never any different. They achieved compliances because massacring planets isn't hard when you have a legion of beserkers. They never achieved peaceful compliances, or just fought until the other side gave in. In Betrayal there's a battle where they actually continued killing Imperial Army guys when they'd ran out of enemies. Achieving compliances the way Angron and his legion did do not require a good general to do. It was all they were good at, all Angron was good at. Massacres.
ImAGeek wrote: Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.
Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."
He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.
Eradicated populations doesn't really equate to compliances does it
If it was so easy to overtake a world with a tide of berserkers though, why didn't every legion do that? Surely that's a lot less mental effort than coming up with all these crazy tactics like Alpharius or Guilliman.
Because you don't want every world to just be wiped out. Most worlds you want to bring in peacefully or with minimal fighting, because the aim of the crusade is to unite humanity, not wipe it out.
Also, Angrons methods probably resulted in a lot of dead World Eaters so it's hardly efficient.
j31c3n wrote: If it was so easy to overtake a world with a tide of berserkers though, why didn't every legion do that? Surely that's a lot less mental effort than coming up with all these crazy tactics like Alpharius or Guilliman.
Because you might want some people alive to actually bring into the Imperium
j31c3n wrote: Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.
Not neccesarily. It depenDS what you want from a battle. Also, I wouldn't say an Exterminatus is a good general either...
Also I think the reason he survived, especially towards the end, was partly due to Lorgar looking out for him. He was gonna die soon anyway because of the Nails, then Lorgar got him turned into a daemon during the Shadow Crusade. He was much harder to kill after that. He isn't stupid by any means, he just isnt a good general. He's a good warrior, a good brawler, but not a general or leader.
I think the HH novels overstate the case regarding Angron and the XIIth. They wouldn't have been a functioning legion or effective military force if they were *only* a bunch of crazed berserkers. Plus, those novels also feature Angron at his worst, with the nails dug in so deep that they're about to kill him.
FW's HH books paint a slightly different picture, explaining how the World Eaters incorporated their love of close assault into their tactics. Betrayal explains how they'd typically use an extremely aggressive first wave attack to keep the enemy occupied (and presumably create a bloody, messy brawl), allowing a second wave of armor and other heavy units to come in, hunt hard targets and clean up.
Sure, it's potentially very bloody. But at its core that basic hammer-and-anvil approach isn't fundamentally different than the tactics used by Alexander's Macedonians -- i.e., using phalanxes to pin enemy units and create gaps for cavalry units to run through and go headhunting. Later, Guderian applied the same basic concepts to armored warfare.
Clearly things went FAR south for them as both Angron's nails and the legionaries' nails dug deeper.
"General" is not just another word for commander. Angron clearly inspired the World Eaters to stupendous feats of carnage and I don't doubt his ability as a leader on the fieldbut I have to wonder: who coordinated his fleets? who provided for his supply lines? Who crafted the strategy by which his legion acted? Keep in mind that Angron could not even overcome the warlords of Nuceria.
Lorgar and Magnus may have had less taste for war than their brothers but they were more than competent even considering a lack of interest.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Lorgar was self-admittedly the worst, though Angron gives him a run for his money with the utterly ridiculous tactics the World Eaters use.
But then again, the World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Just not as funny.
I always thought their style of warfare was laughable.
IIRC Lorgar's self-appraisal was motivated by self-pity rather than being objective. Even if Angron managed to conquer more planets, were there any survivors?
Tangentially:
I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.
Manchu wrote: IIRC Lorgar's self-appraisal was motivated by self-pity rather than being objective. Even if Angron managed to conquer more planets, were there any survivors?
Tangentially:
I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.
Yeah, exactly that. After they were rebuked and he set his mind to it, the WB were very successful.
Manchu wrote: "General" is not just another word for commander. Angron clearly inspired the World Eaters to stupendous feats of carnage and I don't doubt his ability as a leader on the fieldbut I have to wonder: who coordinated his fleets? who provided for his supply lines? Who crafted the strategy by which his legion acted? Keep in mind that Angron could not even overcome the warlords of Nuceria
I agree with what you say about his fleet and supply lines as from Betrayer and The Butchers Nails he seems to only care about the kill. So who does coordinate the logistics etc. I think it would be left to the Human Serfs personally, as the World Eaters do not seem to have numbers and direction held in high regard.
But on Nuceria, I don't agree with you. I think he accomplished a lot until he was heavily outnumbered and outgunned and his death and his colleagues was inevitable.
I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.
Yeah, exactly that. After they were rebuked and he set his mind to it, the WB were very successful.
Yep, but not the way the Emperor wanted it to be had he had known
Envihon wrote: It is stated in the HH about how Lorgar was worst general. Angron at least had Kharn to temper him and guide him.
If by its stated you mean, Lorgar says he's the worst general because he doesn't want to be one, then yeah. But after they get rebuked the WB do very well in the 50 years between then and the heresy, so it's pretty obvious to me that he can be a good general when he actually tries. There's a difference between being a bad general because you don't want to be one, and just being a bad general full stop. Also, the fact Angron needs a normal Space Marine to 'temper and guide him' is also the sign of him not being that great himself... I mean other Primarchs had advisors sure, but they didn't require them to think straight.
I think you don't get Angron. He does not strive to be a general. He has no love for his legion. Thus, he has no intention to actually leading them. He plain hates his legion, the Emperor and the imperium on the whole. Furthermore, he hates himself. He knows he'd be dead due to Nails no matter what he does. And this inevitable inglorious demise doesn't frighten him at all. He is made to be a self-destructing grizzled killing machine regardless of what he really is. And he hates people who've done it to him. Not because he has pity towards himself. He despises the very act of turning him into what he is.
Angron can't be a good or bad general. Because he is not a general. He is not even a warrior. He's a hate incarnate.
Other primarchs are using his indifference to his own and his legion's destiny to meet their own goals. But that's not because Angron's stupid. He just doesn't care.
That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.
ImAGeek wrote: Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...
which actually makes sense, as the Butcher's Nails would no longer be clouding his mind. Daemon Angron is more like Russ on steroids; an intelligent berserker with a modicum of self-control.
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Redcruisair wrote: Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?
Well, yeah, he's a frackin' berserker, what do you expect? Just because he can mastermind a massive planetary invasion does not mean that he doesn't enjoy bashin' skullz erry now and again.
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ImAGeek wrote: That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.
Pre-Heresy, Angron was essentially a Furioso Dreadnought made flesh. He basically led the way through sheer ferocity; none could stand before him, and through that, his men followed alongside him.
ImAGeek wrote: Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...
which actually makes sense, as the Butcher's Nails would no longer be clouding his mind. Daemon Angron is more like Russ on steroids; an intelligent berserker with a modicum of self-control.
So you don't see the irony in a daemon prince of Khorne having more control than a mortal Primarch?
ImAGeek wrote: That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.
Pre-Heresy, Angron was essentially a Furioso Dreadnought made flesh. He basically led the way through sheer ferocity; none could stand before him, and through that, his men followed alongside him.
They didn't even follow alongside him though. He just rushed off and left them in the dust, isolating himself from them. He wasn't even leading from the front, he just did his own thing.
Redcruisair wrote: Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?
Well, yeah, he's a frackin' berserker, what do you expect?
I expect him to fail and (preferably) suffer a very painful and ignoble death. If you’re just charging towards the enemy, then you deserve be led into an obvious trap and be destroyed.
That’s something Angron has already experienced twice and he learned nothing from it. Case in point: Angron makes for a horrible general because he’s a suicidal maniac, who doesn’t care if he and his troops die during a battle.
dusara217 wrote: Just because he can mastermind a massive planetary invasion does not mean that he doesn't enjoy bashin' skullz erry now and again.
Nah mate, Angron didn't mastermind nothing. It was Khorne who directed and provieded for Angron all the way to Armegeddon.
ImAGeek wrote: Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...
which actually makes sense, as the Butcher's Nails would no longer be clouding his mind. Daemon Angron is more like Russ on steroids; an intelligent berserker with a modicum of self-control.
So you don't see the irony in a daemon prince of Khorne having more control than a mortal Primarch?
ImAGeek wrote: That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.
Pre-Heresy, Angron was essentially a Furioso Dreadnought made flesh. He basically led the way through sheer ferocity; none could stand before him, and through that, his men followed alongside him.
They didn't even follow alongside him though. He just rushed off and left them in the dust, isolating himself from them. He wasn't even leading from the front, he just did his own thing.
I honestly don't. Daemons are known to be cunning, and just because he loves killing and rage doesn't mean that he's a mindless berzerker. The Butcher's Nails were what made Angron a mindless berzerker.
Angron is what he is. He is very likely the most worthless Primarch. Ascension only saved him from death. Yes we can blame the nails for his suckage. Ascension may have given him a bit of tactical acumen back, but he will always be who he is.
Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.
dragoonmaster101 wrote: Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.
Again. You don't need to be a good general to massacre planets when you have a legion of 150000 Space Marines perfectly willing to kill anything in their path. The fact that that was the only battle plan they ever used is a big part of why he isn't a good general, and he didn't even lead them or coordinate them, he landed and just rushed off leaving his legion behind. Kharn and Lortara do most of the coordination of the WE.
dragoonmaster101 wrote: Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.
Again. You don't need to be a good general to massacre planets when you have a legion of 150000 Space Marines perfectly willing to kill anything in their path. The fact that that was the only battle plan they ever used is a big part of why he isn't a good general, and he didn't even lead them or coordinate them, he landed and just rushed off leaving his legion behind. Kharn and Lortara do most of the coordination of the WE.
This is why boatloads of World Eaters died everywhere they went that had sufficient force to fight back. Sure, Angron won...but the point of Space Marine legions is that there's nothing out there that can beat them.
dragoonmaster101 wrote: Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.
SO you're saying that if his legion couldn't accomplish that he would actually lead them and act as a proper general ? No he wouldn't, and just letting your men do their thing is not the act of a great general. And there are no proof of him being a genius without his nails. He might have been one if he had never been implanted with the Nails. But even now he has been released from them, he is still lost into his old habits and conditioning inherited from his two centuries of their influence.
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
e.earnshaw wrote: Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
e.earnshaw wrote: Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
This is the image cultivated by GW before Unremembered Empire. I hated the smurfs like everyone else until I read that book. One line got me more than the rest where a legionnaire comes up to Guilliman and the primarch says his armor is too shiny and that he's trying too hard, to which the marine replies, "But we're Ultramarines. We're supposed to try harder."
e.earnshaw wrote: Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
This is the image cultivated by GW before Unremembered Empire. I hated the smurfs like everyone else until I read that book. One line got me more than the rest where a legionnaire comes up to Guilliman and the primarch says his armor is too shiny and that he's trying too hard, to which the marine replies, "But we're Ultramarines. We're supposed to try harder."
Right in the damn feels.
Know No Fear was the one that got me into an 'UM Fanboy'. It did an excellent job of humanising Guilliman, and making him a well rounded, and likeable imo, character.
Oh well im only up to scars ive not read it and horus i should metion its his actions i dont like. He thinks he is all power full but he cant keep control. Hes a pawn playing at being the king and he has no idea that the chaos gods are plucking at his strings.
Upon reaching the surface of a planet, his battle plan was literally to start sprinting in a random direction to kill whoever he found. His Legion operated the same way, when they didn't have someone like Kharn to lead them (and even he was prone to losing his mind during battle).
j31c3n wrote: Well, both Magnus and Curze basically laid back and said "go ahead, Loyalist, I don't mind at all if you kill me."
And neither Lorgar or Perturabo even liked being generals.
I thought Perturabo played what is essentially Warhammer 40k with his officers during spare time - even implied he was pretty much unbeatable at it.
Yeah he did. I don't think he disliked being a general, he just didn't like the role he was typecast into constantly, and he enjoyed to build and create rather than destroy.
e.earnshaw wrote: Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
Guilliman is a humblebrag who's ''humility'' has always come of as false to me.
He is no less arrogant then his brothers but is more adept at hiding it most of the time.
Guilliman is a guy who will never openly and directly brag about his achievements but will make sure that you know about them.
e.earnshaw wrote: Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.
He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
Guilliman is a humblebrag who's ''humility'' has always come of as false to me.
He is no less arrogant then his brothers but is more adept at hiding it most of the time.
Guilliman is a guy who will never openly and directly brag about his achievements but will make sure that you know about them.
You should read Unremembered Empire. His character came off as much more 'Captain Try-Hard' than 'General Did-A-Good-Job'
See he's not come across that way at all to me, he seems genuinely humble and almost embarrassed by his success. Also, he is a bloody good general/leader/administrator with an empire of 500 worlds, it's not as if any arrogance (whether its perceived or real) is unfounded.
Alpharius was at times the best of the traitors and at times the worst. He made things more complicated for himself but his ability to manipulate is brilliant so depends on when you were fighting him.
Khonsu wrote: Wow the people who actually chose Pert as the worst general, FYI he strategized for other Primarchs, Especially inept ones such as Russ.
You spelled Curze wrong.
Instead of Pert?
Lol instead of Russ
Curze was a bad general?
You know Russ' Legion WITH the aid of the Sisters of Silence WITH Custodes backing him up had a very hard time against the Thousand Sons' defence on Prospero, And they weren't even helped by Magnus.
Bear in mind the Thousand Sons were the smallest Legion and only when Russ himself took to the fight did he turn the tide.
IMO The Night Lords and the Alpha Legion are like the "ultra cool guy hipster Legions" anyways, The Night Lords are practically Space Marine pranksters and the Alpha Legions' plots are way too convoluted.
Russ and the Wolves were attacking a Legion who were both dug in and on their home turf, and were also incredibly potent psykers which is a pretty big equaliser. Even with the Custodes and SoS, they were at quite a disadvantage. Also, the Thousand Sons weren't the smallest legion. The Raven Guard were the smalles legion at 80,000 so the Thousand Sons are still a pretty damn big force. Russ did pretty okay in that situation.
Russ and the Wolves were attacking a Legion who were both dug in and on their home turf, and were also incredibly potent psykers which is a pretty big equaliser. Even with the Custodes and SoS, they were at quite a disadvantage. Also, the Thousand Sons weren't the smallest legion. The Raven Guard were the smalles legion at 80,000 so the Thousand Sons are still a pretty damn big force. Russ did pretty okay in that situation.
I'd recheck, The Thousand Sons were 10,000 Marines at their prime, Besides they weren't dug in comparatively speaking, They had no Orbital Defences and Prospero was basically neglected defence-wise.
Saying the Wolves were at a disadvantage is preposterous at best, Do not exaggerate.
Russ did bad, SoS AND CUSTODES ON HIS SIDE!!!
you know what Custodes are and how powerful they are?
Do you know SoS basically counter psychic powers, The Sons' entire shtick?
Besides having the flesh change transform many of their marines into Spawn...
Angron has the nails as his excuse, Besides showing himself to be intelligent when he managed to suppress them, What is Russ' excuse?
And How is Curze a bad general?
I seriously want examples.
Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'. All the numbers have been bumped up more recently, since Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were written. So there wasn't that much less Thousand Sons than there were SW (SW are around 110000 or something I think, TS are at least 80000). And yes, thank you very much, I know about both the SoS and Custodes. But they were still assaulting a planet, and do we even know how many Custodes/SoS there actually were?
Seriously, Russ did a pretty good job at the razing of Prospero. He hardly did anything wrong did he.
As for Curze, he literally hated his legionnaires, didn't care what they did, and had little to no control over them.
Why has everyone got so aggressive around here? Jesus.
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
In every single one of these poll threads lately, we've managed to bait Lion lovers into raging at the fact that we want him included/excluded in the poll, I couldn't let the pattern go undone.
ImAGeek wrote: Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'. All the numbers have been bumped up more recently, since Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were written. So there wasn't that much less Thousand Sons than there were SW (SW are around 110000 or something I think, TS are at least 80000). And yes, thank you very much, I know about both the SoS and Custodes. But they were still assaulting a planet, and do we even know how many Custodes/SoS there actually were?
Seriously, Russ did a pretty good job at the razing of Prospero. He hardly did anything wrong did he.
As for Curze, he literally hated his legionnaires, didn't care what they did, and had little to no control over them.
Why has everyone got so aggressive around here? Jesus.
Whether or not the 1ksons had 80,000 or 10,000... the majority of their defences were taken down by Magnus willingly before the assault even began. Magnus sent away their fleet, clouded his own prescient psykers, blinded their own sensor net and took all technological shields offline. He was trying to thwart Tzeentech by not entirely destroying the wolves in their attack; he only intervened when he could no longer stand by and watch his sons be slaughtered like the traitors they weren't.
I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.
I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.
Russ and the Wolves were attacking a Legion who were both dug in and on their home turf, and were also incredibly potent psykers which is a pretty big equaliser. Even with the Custodes and SoS, they were at quite a disadvantage. Also, the Thousand Sons weren't the smallest legion. The Raven Guard were the smalles legion at 80,000 so the Thousand Sons are still a pretty damn big force. Russ did pretty okay in that situation.
I'd recheck, The Thousand Sons were 10,000 Marines at their prime, Besides they weren't dug in comparatively speaking, They had no Orbital Defences and Prospero was basically neglected defence-wise.
Saying the Wolves were at a disadvantage is preposterous at best, Do not exaggerate.
Russ did bad, SoS AND CUSTODES ON HIS SIDE!!!
you know what Custodes are and how powerful they are?
Do you know SoS basically counter psychic powers, The Sons' entire shtick?
Besides having the flesh change transform many of their marines into Spawn...
Angron has the nails as his excuse, Besides showing himself to be intelligent when he managed to suppress them, What is Russ' excuse?
And How is Curze a bad general?
I seriously want examples.
I guess I could counter by asking for examples of tactical acumen that makes him stand out when compared to other legions. For the most part, his most difficult campaigns seem to have been fought alongside other legions who ended up calling him a dirtbag.
ImAGeek wrote: I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.
I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.
There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.
Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospero. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.
Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).
ImAGeek wrote: I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.
I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.
There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.
Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospoer. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.
Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).
I can see where you're coming from. On paper, this does look bad for Russ. To the more realistic of us who know the Space Wolves are better than we give them credit for, this really speaks more to the power of the Thousand Sons. The shield that saved Tizca is the only reason the Wolves even came down. It was a concentrated ball of Thousand Son power.
Tough nut to crack, wouldn't you agree?
***Added
I also believe I've read numbers along the lines of what you're reporting before. I think that misfortune and mutation did limit the numbers of the Thousand Sons severely.
ImAGeek wrote: He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.
Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight
I actually thought this scene was of particular import for showing us how far off Angron was. A Space Marine can orient themselves with relative ease, so how hard should it be for a Primarch?
Yeah that's what I'm getting at, that shows the power of the TS more than any flaws of Russes or the SW.
Also, that 'canon' number, isn't canon anymore. Since TS and PB were written, the numbers of all the legions have been increased, and the RG are the smallest, canonically now. At 80,000 legionnaires. That is canon. It's in HH3: Extermination. The numbers for the TS are before the size increase took place.
ImAGeek wrote: I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.
I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.
There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.
Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospoer. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.
Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).
I can see where you're coming from. On paper, this does look bad for Russ. To the more realistic of us who know the Space Wolves are better than we give them credit for, this really speaks more to the power of the Thousand Sons. The shield that saved Tizca is the only reason the Wolves even came down. It was a concentrated ball of Thousand Son power.
Tough nut to crack, wouldn't you agree?
***Added
I also believe I've read numbers along the lines of what you're reporting before. I think that misfortune and mutation did limit the numbers of the Thousand Sons severely.
Yeah Prospero was a Tough nut... and should have been even tougher. Shame the 1ksons were forced to join Horus but that was Tzeentech's plan all along and you can't really out-fox him.
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ImAGeek wrote: Yeah that's what I'm getting at, that shows the power of the TS more than any flaws of Russes or the SW.
Also, that 'canon' number, isn't canon anymore. Since TS and PB were written, the numbers of all the legions have been increased, and the RG are the smallest, canonically now. At 80,000 legionnaires. That is canon. It's in HH3: Extermination. The numbers for the TS are before the size increase took place.
Well if the 1ksons had >80,000 on Prospero, their losses would have been closer to 99%. Even still, the Wolves out-numbered them and we don't know how many died in the flashy laser lightshow, outside of Tizca.
The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.
So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win
I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.
That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.
ImAGeek wrote: The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.
So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win
I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.
That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.
I'm not calling Russ a bad general for having a hard time. I'm calling him a bad general for attacking in the first place. He should have continued his bombardment from orbit; the kine shield wouldn't have lasted forever and it's not like Russ had time constraints, he could have taken as much time as he needed to obliterate Prospero from orbit.
I never thought about that actually. He probably could've done it from orbit. Maybe he wanted to do it personally, seeing as it was his brother he was trying to kill. Maybe he just wanted to be sure. Maybe he just wanted it done quickly, either because he felt guilty (and it was a case of ripping the plaster off, get it over and done with), or because he just wanted to move on with the Crusade. I dunno, I'm sure he had his reasons. Does it explain it in Prospero Burns? I can't recall.
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.
It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.
The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.
It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.
The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
ImAGeek wrote: The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.
So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win
I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.
That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.
They are explicitly stated to not be all psykers, Regarding the ones on Prospero in the time of the attack, Also considering their extreme genetic instability it's very unlikely they'd outnumber another legion considering so many of them turned into spawn in the first place.
Besides Russ had every tool in his disposal to deal with their Psychic powers, He was literally outplayed by Magnus' Captains (Phosis T'kar, Khalophis and Ahriman IIRC)
I think Curze was one of the best generals. What do generals do? They set strategy. If it's effective - they're good generals. If it's not - they're not good generals. And as far as i'm concerned, Night Lord's strategy was at the peak of it's effectiveness. They've won most wars without even fighting.
And "leading his men...loving his legion" are just sentiments. None of this is a general's priority quality. The outcome of the fights determines how good a general is and nothing else. When Curze occupies an entire sector having razed just a couple of towns in a few night's period without unnecessery casualties on his legions' part - that's the best result you can think of.
ImAGeek wrote: The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.
What do you think a general is supposed to do in the first place?
Huh? You said Curze was a good general because he set the NL strategy and it won wars without even fighting, but the VIIIth Legion were fighting in exactly the same way before Curze was discovered so he didn't set their strategy.
In my mind, to be a good general you need to be able to at least have some semblance of control over your men. Curze had little control over most of the NL, because he didn't even care what they did.
ImAGeek wrote: The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.
What do you think a general is supposed to do in the first place?
Huh? You said Curze was a good general because he set the NL strategy and it won wars without even fighting, but the VIIIth Legion were fighting in exactly the same way before Curze was discovered so he didn't set their strategy.
In my mind, to be a good general you need to be able to at least have some semblance of control over your men. Curze had little control over most of the NL, because he didn't even care what they did.
Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.
If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.
koooaei wrote: Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.
If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.
Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?
koooaei wrote: Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.
If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.
Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?
Haven't read this piece of fluff yet What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.
And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.
koooaei wrote: Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.
If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.
Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?
Haven't read this piece of fluff yet What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.
And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.
Haha, it makes discussions like this really difficult. You have to have read everything written to have the full picture because they can't make up their minds on stuff. Some of the fluff does have Curze as a decent general, and some has him as a crazed animal.
ImAGeek wrote: Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.
It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.
There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.
ImAGeek wrote: Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.
It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.
There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.
Again, since Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons were written is when the change was. So the contradictory stuff is now outdated fluff. Laurie Golding said that he and Alan Bligh crunch all the numbers when Alan writes the FW books to make sure they're all correct.
Even if the RG were the smallest 'at the time' (which was after Horus was made Warmaster, so wasn't long before the Heresy) that still means that all the other legions were more than 80,000, and it was only a couple of years before the heresy, so there wasn't time for those numbers to change drastically before the Heresy broke out.
ImAGeek wrote: Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.
It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.
There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.
Again, since Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons were written is when the change was. So the contradictory stuff is now outdated fluff. Laurie Golding said that he and Alan Bligh crunch all the numbers when Alan writes the FW books to make sure they're all correct.
Even if the RG were the smallest 'at the time' (which was after Horus was made Warmaster, so wasn't long before the Heresy) that still means that all the other legions were more than 80,000, and it was only a couple of years before the heresy, so there wasn't time for those numbers to change drastically before the Heresy broke out.
I know, I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that the fluff does contradict itself quite a bit
Yeah it is very contradictory. I think Mr Golding is trying to get a better handle of it more recently, but that leaves some of the earlier stuff, well, wrong haha. The FW stuff is much better written than most of the more recent BLHH novels haha.
koooaei wrote: Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.
If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.
Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?
Haven't read this piece of fluff yet What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.
And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.
Haha, it makes discussions like this really difficult. You have to have read everything written to have the full picture because they can't make up their minds on stuff. Some of the fluff does have Curze as a decent general, and some has him as a crazed animal.
Yea, I only read the short story two days ago. It's impossible to keep up with all the stuff and the writers have completely different views on the different Primarchs and Legions. I love how ADB writes the NL in Prince of Crows but I hate when he writes from the DA perspective (especially in Savage Weapons). I can't stand his view of the DA at all. The whole "your grace" and "my liege" thing... out of a Legion that grew from the Order... urgh.
Oh and it's worth noting that at this point Curze was already breaking down and this is right after he woke up from the coma the Lion put him in. The Curze from Unremembered Empire (which takes place right after) is completely different again so yea, different sources = different fluff.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah it is very contradictory. I think Mr Golding is trying to get a better handle of it more recently, but that leaves some of the earlier stuff, well, wrong haha. The FW stuff is much better written than most of the more recent BLHH novels haha.
After checking out some FW stuff, I have to say I strongly agree! That's some good stuff in there. The series could be the new Index Astartes! Well, if they can stay on topic and perhaps make it more concise. I really hope they stick with the DA fluff from the novels and not the short stories when they finally get to the Thramas Crusade. Otherwise I shall spend many restless nights weeping
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.
It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.
The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
Almost anyone who would have to deal with him in person.
Shidank wrote: It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.
Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.
It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.
The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
Almost anyone who would have to deal with him in person.
Next question!
Unless you're idiodic enough to talk back to a Primarch, he's not going to kill you.
Shidank wrote: We derailed somewhere. Who said the Lion was going to kill you?
Because that is the only negative to potentially meeting him in person? Otherwise he's the top tactician of the Legions to the point that even Guilliman stands under the shadow he casts.
Shidank wrote: No, the negative to meeting him in person would be his uncanny ability to make everyone super uncomfortable.
Doesn't that depend on which author is portraying the Lion though? I remember him inspiring fierce devotion and awe in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Same in Unremembered Empire. The only one who was uncomfortable was Guilliman, because he couldn't read his intentions. Zahariel was fine as well when they went stargazing (the impression the Lion gave him was of one so far removed from everyone else that he was really lonely). In fact, the meeting left him with hope for a brighter future on Caliban.
The Lion was distant, sure, but I'm not sure he could be described as making people super uncomfortable. At least not in most depictions we see of him.
Shidank wrote: The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?
I'm sure he wanted more than literally nothing otherwise he would have sat around somewhere on Caliban and starved.
He wanted to be Warmaster for one. And he wanted to exterminate the Great Beasts. He also wanted to turn his peoples' gaze towards the stars. And he wanted to conquer worlds for the Emperor. He definitely had ambition.
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.
Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.
But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.
Void__Dragon wrote: He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.
Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.
But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.
That's only from his depiction in The Lion, which is only a short story in The Primarchs (Anthology) rather than a full novel in the series. And his version of the Lion and DA were based on Aaron Dembski-Bowden versions, which are very different from their depiction in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Obviously there's a continuity problem here. In Unremembered Empire they seem more like their novel counterparts again but with some elements from ADB carried over. And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.
Void__Dragon wrote: He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.
Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.
But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.
That's only from his depiction in The Lion, which is only a short story in The Primarchs (Anthology) rather than a full novel in the series. And his version of the Lion and DA were based on Aaron Dembski-Bowden versions, which are very different from their depiction in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Obviously there's a continuity problem here. In Unremembered Empire they seem more like their novel counterparts again but with some elements from ADB carried over. And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.
So yea, read my previous post
The Lion in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angel is a sociopath without any capacity for empathy who makes backhanded deals to make himself Warmaster, and is so obviously smugly sure of his deserving of the rank, lol.
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.
Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.
But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.
You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Lion in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angel is a sociopath without any capacity for empathy who makes backhanded deals to make himself Warmaster, and is so obviously smugly sure of his deserving of the rank, lol.
Might I point you to my post in the Warmaster thread? There's plenty of evidence that he was a serious contender for the title and that it wasn't just some smug delusion on his part.
EngulfedObject wrote: And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.
Or maybe the real reason he was killed is because he's a bad character from a bad novel and he should feel bad. I'd be surprised if we ever see anything of him again.
Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?
He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.
Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.
But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.
Is he such a bad general, though? We are not talking about hugs and kisses.
Going into this thread I was thinking "Oh, Angron, no question." So I voted Angron and low and behold everyone else seems to be of the same mind except for a few that voted Lorgar which admittedly isn't a bad choice. But everyone else was least a competent leader if not a visionary or cunning one. The only exceptions being the zealot (Lorgar) and the psychopath (Angron).
You have to be willing to accept all depictions as the same character viewed through a multitude of eyes. Just because it may seem different, the close quarters writing of the HH books come together to form a portrait of the Primarch wherein you should look to all sources equally.
The Lion was not friendly. He was pragmatic. He just tried harder than Pert to be likeable. That, in turn, made him seem even more inhuman. He was one of the single most uncomfortable Primarchs of all, and that includes Angron.
This, perhaps more than anything, is why I chose him as the most powerful Primarch. He doesn't worry half as often about the petty crap his brothers might. He is one of the most brilliant, if not THE most brilliant, tactician in the Imperium and has a Legion regarded by most as suicide to engage one on one. He is brutally effective, capable of miming even the most advanced etiquette rules, and has a penchant for writing down which facial expressions match which emotions.
I wish Kurze would have finished choking the life from The Lion. Would have made for a great hatred between the two armies, and I would have the benefit of my favorite primarch killing my friends favorite!
Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.
Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).
Khonsu wrote: Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.
To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.
"It would have been too easy."
I believe it's that "I'm Alpharius" + "Everything is an Alpha Legion plot" memes getting to people's heads.
Also I prefer Perturabo's practical approach, There's a reason other Primarchs used him to help them strategize
Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."
Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss
Jpogfreak886 wrote: Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.
Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).
As someone who is pretty vocal against Angron in this thread, I do like Angron, I like his character since ADB wrote him, and he is a sympathetic character and you can see why he is like he is. But he still is definitely the worst of the Primarchs in terms of skills as a general and leadership.
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Shidank wrote: Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."
Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss
Perturabo is one of my favourite Primarchs. I really liked him in AE. He was a very competent if pragmatic general and tactician.
I don't think Alpharius was ineffective. I think he was very effective, his methods definitely worked, they were just a very roundabout way to get to the same solution his brothers did. But I imagine his legion received fewer losses as a result of his tactics, and it would have helped against some enemies that the other legions might have had some trouble cracking. The main issue was time, it took longer generally to fight the way the AL did. But there were 18 legions and a galaxy full of enemies, I definitely think there was a place for Alpharius' tactics.
Khonsu wrote: Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.
To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.
"It would have been too easy."
Wasn't this in attempt to prove to Guilliman that he was indeed a comparable (if not superior) general?
From what I understand from HH3 it's just his general attitude.
Shidank wrote: Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."
Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss
I kinda like the Lion because he has such an Achilles' heel, at least how he's described in Descent of Angels, with Nemiel thinking that without Luther, Lion El'Jonson would've have had the man management or charisma to do what he did.
Jpogfreak886 wrote: Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.
Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).
As someone who is pretty vocal against Angron in this thread, I do like Angron, I like his character since ADB wrote him, and he is a sympathetic character and you can see why he is like he is. But he still is definitely the worst of the Primarchs in terms of skills as a general and leadership.
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Shidank wrote: Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."
Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss
Perturabo is one of my favourite Primarchs. I really liked him in AE. He was a very competent if pragmatic general and tactician.
I don't think Alpharius was ineffective. I think he was very effective, his methods definitely worked, they were just a very roundabout way to get to the same solution his brothers did. But I imagine his legion received fewer losses as a result of his tactics, and it would have helped against some enemies that the other legions might have had some trouble cracking. The main issue was time, it took longer generally to fight the way the AL did. But there were 18 legions and a galaxy full of enemies, I definitely think there was a place for Alpharius' tactics.
I never saw him as ineffective, but his strategies did take time.
You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.
That justifies decapitating him for talking back? And having a sadistic grin while doing so?
Please, you can't spin that scene in a way which makes the Lion look like anything but an unstable sociopath. Which is what he is. A sociopath who just happens to be on the loyalist's side. Easily the most morally bankrupt loyalist, if not the most insane (that would be Dorn).
Might I point you to my post in the Warmaster thread? There's plenty of evidence that he was a serious contender for the title and that it wasn't just some smug delusion on his part.
And he's not as bad as you describe if the opinions of the characters in the novels are anything to go by.
Nothing you just said contradicted my summation of his character. That he is competent enough to warrant possibly making him Warmaster doesn't change the fact that he is a spoiled manbaby who legitimately believed that being the first Primarch meant he deserved to be Warmaster.
The characters in the novels have no choice in how they perceive him. Any normal human is literally psychically compelled to like the Lion (though this mental domination is not absolute). This is an explicit gift the Emperor gave the Primarchs.
Furthermore, who cares what characters in the novels think? They aren't infallible.
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lliu wrote: Is he such a bad general, though? We are not talking about hugs and kisses.
He is not a bad general, but that isn't what we are talking about anymore.
Off-topic? Certainly, but this topic is pretty much closed now. The answer is Angron, lol.
Void__Dragon wrote: Nothing you just said contradicted my summation of his character. That he is competent enough to warrant possibly making him Warmaster doesn't change the fact that he is a spoiled manbaby who legitimately believed that being the first Primarch meant he deserved to be Warmaster.
The characters in the novels have no choice in how they perceive him. Any normal human is literally psychically compelled to like the Lion (though this mental domination is not absolute). This is an explicit gift the Emperor gave the Primarchs.
Furthermore, who cares what characters in the novels think? They aren't infallible.
Hmm my reply was both to your post as well as some of the previous posts so I might not have been clear enough. I meant that as an example of how he didn't really make everyone around him comfortable and that how crazy he's depicted (the backhanding heads off thing) depends on which author is writing him. Obviously the opinions of the characters (infallible or not) matter because they are the only ones in a position to feel uncomfortable around him. We're not in the novels after all.
The Warmaster thing was meant to show that he may have been genuinely deserving of the title, even if he was smug about it (but he had reason to be).
Captyn_Bob wrote: Well I voted Magnus the Red. As cool as he is, he lost two whole fellowships (the equivalent of companies) to orks. I mean come on.
Orks have nearly killed Emps + Horus once.
Yeah. Orks back then almost seem a different breed. In both KNF and Fulgrim it mentions how tough the orks are, and how strong, how dangerous. You had super Orks that were like Primarch sized. The Emperor was almost killed by an Ork, had Horus not saved him.
The thing with orks is that they thrive on conflict. The harder you hit them - the tougher they get.
Anywayz, i'm pretty certain that if current 40k Ghaz Waaagh! ran into a single 30k legion it would be a long bloody stalemate not going into the legion's favor unless they managed to get their Elites close and personal with Ghaz Himself. And even so, don't forget, fluffwise he's almost a size of a dread and no stranger to punching face. I think that only a primarch would have an upper hand vs Ghaz 1v1.
Don't think that loosing to orks a couple times makes you look miserable. There's just so many of them. And they're cunnin' but brutal. Or brutal but cunnin'.
j31c3n wrote: Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.
Angron vs an Exterminatus, hmm, who would win
We actually had a thread about that once
But I'd have to say Angron too. Being a good general is about fulfilling your objectives using good strategy. But that requires the ability to actually set out a strategy beyond "Lets charge them until everyone is dead".
Shidank wrote: I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?
The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.
During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.
Shidank wrote: I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?
The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.
During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.
I'd probably like reading this and seeing if it still plays with the way they're reversing some of their HH fluff.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.
I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.
I can't wait for all of them haha. Very excited for Tempest in May, excited for the Prospero ones, and looking forward to seeing what they do with the Blood and Dark Angels, and the White Scars.
Shidank wrote: I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?
The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.
During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.
I'd probably like reading this and seeing if it still plays with the way they're reversing some of their HH fluff.
Btw, this is from Savage Weapons in the Age of Darkness anthology.
Spoiler:
Curze didn't really cut him open but rather smashed his head repeatedly into the ground. Corswain, the DA who runs his sword through Curze's back, later wonders how the Lion is still alive with so little of his skull intact.
The Lion later puts Curze into a coma when he deals him 11 (!) wounds that are instantly fatal to an Astartes in Prince of Crows (it's the very first scene). Prince of Crows is actually an excellent read and Sevatar is badass but I really don't like how he depicts the Dark Angels in Savage Weapons (luckily they are all unnamed in in the novella). They're very different from their previous depictions and a lot more "knightly" in a Bretonnia in space kind of sense.
He means he needs to read these wonderful stories while moaning softly to himself and going "oooh yeah" everytime one of the characters does something particularly awesome or violent.
Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?
Honestly, I consider Curze to be a bad general on principle simply because he just lays out a very basic plan and lets his soldiers run wild with it however they like. This just reflects poorly on a military commander, coma or nay.
After all the posts I've seen on SB being the book to define current thoughts on the Alpha Legion, I'm both excited and wary to pick it up. The latest round of HH books seemed to be slipping from that regal air of the first run into the cheap product that 40k novels became. I'm hoping that's just a feeling, but if they start reneging on the original ideas that made the first stages of the HH so interesting, I'll be pretty disappointed.
The point of writing out the HH to me was both to show us what actually happened and for something more than what we already knew to happen. The rate they're going will leave the surprise as something that didn't actually matter. I'm still hopeful, however.
EngulfedObject wrote: Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?
Try ask that question to Sanguinius. Right after waking up from a coma, he went on to single-handedly defeating two greater demons and leading his men from the brink of ruin to absolute victory against a large scale demon incursion.
EngulfedObject wrote: Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?
Try ask that question to Sanguinius. Right after waking up from a coma, he went on to single-handedly defeating two greater demons and leading his men from the brink of ruin to absolute victory against a large scale demon incursion.
In other words for Sanguinius it was tuesday.
Well yea, Curze isn't really shown as a great general in Prince of Crows. He just lets the Kyroptera do what they want and then immediately leads a suicide attack on the DA flagship when he wakes up.
Say what you will about Curze, but what he did worked, and they lost less marines than other chapters. When your troops are the best at what they do a good general does very little micromanaging.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Say what you will about Curze, but what he did worked, and they lost less marines than other chapters. When your troops are the best at what they do a good general does very little micromanaging.
I like the Night Lords and they were quite awesome in Prince of Crows but what Curze did at the end didn't work.
Did the suicide assault take out the DA flagship? No. Did they take out the Lion? No. Did they take out the rest of the DA leadership? No. Did they lose their best warriors and most of their leadership? Yes. Don't forget, Curze was hiding alone on the DA flagship for months. Yes, incredible that he lasted that long but not so incredible that he got captured in the first place (and that's really more to do with plot armour than anything else so he could get to Macragge and flip Land Raiders).
And the NL survived because of Sevatar's plan to scatter the legion, not because of anything Curze did.
Honestly, saying what Curze did worked is like saying that you're a great general for never losing a soldier when all you do is Exterminatus every planet you find.
Shidank wrote: Honestly, saying what Curze did worked is like saying that you're a great general for never losing a soldier when all you do is Exterminatus every planet you find.
Curze was a one-trick pony.
Like Angron.
I love the Night Lords, but Curze was not a good general. And his whole fear philosophy was just flawed. His planet was peaceful but the second he left it it reverted to the hellhole it was before, hence why it poisoned his legion with rapists and murderers. He didn't care about his legion, hated most of them in fact, had little control over them, and if he did lose less men than the others (is there a source for that btw?) it's because the Night Lords tended to 'tactically retreat' more than other legions haha.
I don't know about Curze to comment on his abilities in other depictions but I just wanted to add that (Prince of Crows spoilers):
Spoiler:
Sevatar flat out states that they will not survive the confrontation with the Dark Angels, which is why he eliminates the old Kyroptera in the first place, because they want to continue fighting the DA, which Sevatar says is just them nursing their wounded pride. Curze assaulting the DA flagship rather than saving his legion was just that: he needed to get back at the Lion more than he cared about the survival of his legion.
I love the Night Lords, but Curze was not a good general. And his whole fear philosophy was just flawed. His planet was peaceful but the second he left it it reverted to the hellhole it was before, hence why it poisoned his legion with rapists and murderers. He didn't care about his legion, hated most of them in fact, had little control over them, and if he did lose less men than the others (is there a source for that btw?) it's because the Night Lords tended to 'tactically retreat' more than other legions haha.
Exactly. Sevatar does a lot more to hold the legion together than Curze does and what you said is pretty much what he says in Prince of Crows, even down to the frequent "tactical retreats."
ImAGeek wrote: There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.
Yea but it does make the Night Lords very likeable because of their black humour and cynicism
ImAGeek wrote: There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.
Yea but it does make the Night Lords very likeable because of their black humour and cynicism
Definitely. I love the Night Lords. And Sev is the most sarcastic bastard ever haha.
ImAGeek wrote: There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.
Sevatar is for the Night Lords what Kharn is for the World Eaters I think. Basically the generals of their respective legions.
I think this is the single best way to sum up what I've heard of Sevatar and actually helped me envision the character!
Let me stat that first I have not yet read PoC. I just meant that he recognized that his legion was already conqouring worlds without much problem so he didn't try to fix what wasn't broke. As for losing less men, I cannot point out a source. I was speaking more to his legions hit and run/terror tactics losing less men than say Angron's "everybody just charge at them" tactic. Of course towards the end any sence of tatics and reason seems to have pretty much left him and he just wanted to kill Lion-o. Pronce of Crows is on my short list of "to read" though. In the long run I will bow to the wisdom of more informed Night Lords fans out there. BTW, Imageek, am I mistaken or is that a Night Lord in your Avatar"?
Lord Blackscale wrote: Let me stat that first I have not yet read PoC. I just meant that he recognized that his legion was already conqouring worlds without much problem so he didn't try to fix what wasn't broke. As for losing less men, I cannot point out a source. I was speaking more to his legions hit and run/terror tactics losing less men than say Angron's "everybody just charge at them" tactic. Of course towards the end any sence of tatics and reason seems to have pretty much left him and he just wanted to kill Lion-o. Pronce of Crows is on my short list of "to read" though. In the long run I will bow to the wisdom of more informed Night Lords fans out there. BTW, Imageek, am I mistaken or is that a Night Lord in your Avatar"?
You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.
That justifies decapitating him for talking back? And having a sadistic grin while doing so?
Please, you can't spin that scene in a way which makes the Lion look like anything but an unstable sociopath. Which is what he is. A sociopath who just happens to be on the loyalist's side. Easily the most morally bankrupt loyalist, if not the most insane (that would be Dorn).
We're talking about war, not hugs and kittens here. Was he a bad commander and strategist? NO, he was the best. Did he fight poorly, NO. Then why do people vote for him to be THE WORST GENERAL?!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait, the Lion isn't even on there!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again, how come Alpharius only has 2 votes? He likes making a war HARDER THAN USUAL!!!
Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).
Perturabo was being utterly owned in a space battle by an Imperial Fist fleet that was a fraction of his size after ambushing them. The Fist commander was not a demi-god primarch either. And the only reason Perturabo and his fleet survived was because the Fists had to break off the engagement due to a message from Dorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although Angron gets my vote.
Poly Ranger wrote: Perturabo was being utterly owned in a space battle by an Imperial Fist fleet that was a fraction of his size after ambushing them. The Fist commander was not a demi-god primarch either. And the only reason Perturabo and his fleet survived was because the Fists had to break off the engagement due to a message from Dorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although Angron gets my vote.
Right, except Polux is an exceptional fleet commander, and pulled a lot of right risk unexpected moves in that fleet battle. I mean yeah the IW were beaten but barely. Perturabo is one of the better generals, and I don't think it's fair to say he isn't based on one void battle against a clearly gifted commander.
lliu wrote: We're talking about war, not hugs and kittens here. Was he a bad commander and strategist? NO, he was the best. Did he fight poorly, NO. Then why do people vote for him to be THE WORST GENERAL?
I know one thing: I didn't vote that he was.
If you had actually read my post before giving your knee-jerk response you might know that.
ImAGeek wrote: Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).
ImAGeek wrote: Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).
They got stuff done too.
What I mean is, Alpharius' methods did work, they probably received less casualties than other legions with the methods they used, and they could probably overcome foes some of the other legions might have struggled with. It's not like he made things needlessly difficult and then didn't win, they still had a pretty damn good track record. Curze and Angron might have got stuff done, but Its more a case of the World Eaters and The Night Lords got stuff done, as opposed to Curze and Angron actually being good generals. I mean when you're a legion of super soldiers it's hardly difficult to scare people or massacre planets.
As far as i know, Night Lords hadn't utilised fear tactics before Kurze emerged. At least not to the extent of a legion main tactical doctrine. And this tactics saved lots of lives. Both the lives of the imperial forces - night lords and IG, and the lives of their foes - future imperial citizens and military.
People just got scared by the mere perspective of what might happen to them having heard of the Night Lords apearing in the region that they refused to fight at all. Unless they were unaware of NL reputation or plain insane. In case they weren't aware, NL did their best to make them find it out after a good show.
A sound tactical feat if you ask me. Psychological warfare at it's finest. Like in an old proverb: "The best fight is a fight that didn't take place".
Agreed it works, I'm not saying the Night Lords weren't effective, I mean even without the fear tactics, they were still Space Marines with all that entails, but Curze wasn't a great general I don't think. But I still like Curze, I like his character, broken as it is.
In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.
SRSFACE wrote: In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.
But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.
Lorgar after his censure actually was a very competent General and for the 50 years before the Heresy actually began to catch up with his brothers.
SRSFACE wrote: In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.
But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.
But makes you think, why haven't other legions gone for such a high record either? They're pretty much super-soldiers too. Don't forget, the initial legion purpose is to conquer worlds! That could mean that Angron's actually one of the best generals as he's managed to run his legion the way they've accomplished this task effectively and fast enough. If everything's going good, why interfere? Don't break what's working.
SRSFACE wrote: In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.
But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.
But makes you think, why haven't other legions gone for such a high record either? They're pretty much super-soldiers too. Don't forget, the initial legion purpose is to conquer worlds! That could mean that Angron's actually one of the best generals as he's managed to run his legion the way they've accomplished this task effectively and fast enough. If everything's going good, why interfere? Don't break what's working.
Because that's not the only reason Angron is a bad general. He literally isn't a general. As soon as the battle starts he leaves his men in the dust and rushes forward, cutting himself off. Kharn and Lortara do all the coordination of the legion.
ImAGeek wrote: Agreed it works, I'm not saying the Night Lords weren't effective, I mean even without the fear tactics, they were still Space Marines with all that entails, but Curze wasn't a great general I don't think. But I still like Curze, I like his character, broken as it is.
Curze being broken is exactly why I like him. He has character that many of the others lack.
Because that's not the only reason Angron is a bad general. He literally isn't a general. As soon as the battle starts he leaves his men in the dust and rushes forward, cutting himself off. Kharn and Lortara do all the coordination of the legion.
But this is the way they function the best. They're allready bloodthirsty uncontrollable zerkers. There's no use in playing a 'good general' in front of them.
Just going to point out that in Savage Weapons the Night Lords and Dark Angels are locked in a stalemate for the Thramas Crusade; this is Curze (widely considered one of the lesser generals) against the Lion (considered a contender for Warmaster) and this stalemate only got broken because the Lion got the super warp teleport thing. Cuze is certainly insane which hampers his ability at times (PoC) but he was good enough to be on even terms with the Lion for 2 years
Because that's not the only reason Angron is a bad general. He literally isn't a general. As soon as the battle starts he leaves his men in the dust and rushes forward, cutting himself off. Kharn and Lortara do all the coordination of the legion.
But this is the way they function the best. They're allready bloodthirsty uncontrollable zerkers. There's no use in playing a 'good general' in front of them.
Yes, fine, whatever. That doesn't change the fact that Angron easily is the worst general of all the Primarchs.
Not really. They only fought one way. If they fought in more ways than one and had a bad general theyd probably have failed sure. But it was hardly a mentally taxing way of waging war. I think if I had 110000 marines who were bloodthirsty beserkers even I could massacre a planet of humans. I am definitely not a good general. He isn't a good general. He abandons his men to go and fight by himself. He makes things harder than they need to be (see Istvaan 3) and ignores orders from superiors. He has no control or coordination over his legion. He literally has one tactic, is probably the most inflexible of the Primarchs, which means he's easily manipulated (see Betrayer when the legion runs straight into an ambush because they're lost to the nails). Occasionally his tactics are needed, but that doesn't make him a good general. Him and his legion were good at wiping out planters, but that doesn't make him a good general. If he was in charge of anyone but Space Marines, they would have failed every battle. The casualty rates of the WE were atrocious. theres even a battle against orks were the WE show up, and after all the orks are wiped out, the Imperial Army present are still being killed, because the WE just can't stop killing. He isn't even their general. He's just another beserker in an army of beserkers.
You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.
That justifies decapitating him for talking back? And having a sadistic grin while doing so?
Please, you can't spin that scene in a way which makes the Lion look like anything but an unstable sociopath. Which is what he is. A sociopath who just happens to be on the loyalist's side. Easily the most morally bankrupt loyalist, if not the most insane (that would be Dorn).
We're talking about war, not hugs and kittens here. Was he a bad commander and strategist? NO, he was the best. Did he fight poorly, NO. Then why do people vote for him to be THE WORST GENERAL?!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait, the Lion isn't even on there!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again, how come Alpharius only has 2 votes? He likes making a war HARDER THAN USUAL!!!
Just saying, if you have to handicap yourself to make things a challenge, you're probably the best.
ImAGeek wrote: Remove Angron and they'd have still done as well. Kharn was the best general for them.
Lhorke seemed to have been doing a good job before being put into a Dreadnought. If Leman Russ' sentiments can be believed.
Definitely. They would have been much better off had Angron not been found/died at De'Shea/been put down.
I liked Lhorke, I was expecting some kind of big showdown between him and Angron but that part of the story seemed to fizzle out. I know there was a showdown, but not the one that there could have been.
Skimask Mohawk wrote: Just going to point out that in Savage Weapons the Night Lords and Dark Angels are locked in a stalemate for the Thramas Crusade; this is Curze (widely considered one of the lesser generals) against the Lion (considered a contender for Warmaster) and this stalemate only got broken because the Lion got the super warp teleport thing. Cuze is certainly insane which hampers his ability at times (PoC) but he was good enough to be on even terms with the Lion for 2 years
I thought this was more of a super-genius with psychotic episodes hiding from a super-genius who DIDN'T have psychotic episodes?
