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Yeah it is very contradictory. I think Mr Golding is trying to get a better handle of it more recently, but that leaves some of the earlier stuff, well, wrong haha. The FW stuff is much better written than most of the more recent BL HH novels haha.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So really we should all sell our BL books and buy the FW stuff

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe

 ImAGeek wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.

If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.

Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?

Haven't read this piece of fluff yet
What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.

And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.

Haha, it makes discussions like this really difficult. You have to have read everything written to have the full picture because they can't make up their minds on stuff. Some of the fluff does have Curze as a decent general, and some has him as a crazed animal.

Yea, I only read the short story two days ago. It's impossible to keep up with all the stuff and the writers have completely different views on the different Primarchs and Legions. I love how ADB writes the NL in Prince of Crows but I hate when he writes from the DA perspective (especially in Savage Weapons). I can't stand his view of the DA at all. The whole "your grace" and "my liege" thing... out of a Legion that grew from the Order... urgh.

Oh and it's worth noting that at this point Curze was already breaking down and this is right after he woke up from the coma the Lion put him in. The Curze from Unremembered Empire (which takes place right after) is completely different again so yea, different sources = different fluff.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah it is very contradictory. I think Mr Golding is trying to get a better handle of it more recently, but that leaves some of the earlier stuff, well, wrong haha. The FW stuff is much better written than most of the more recent BL HH novels haha.

After checking out some FW stuff, I have to say I strongly agree! That's some good stuff in there. The series could be the new Index Astartes! Well, if they can stay on topic and perhaps make it more concise. I really hope they stick with the DA fluff from the novels and not the short stories when they finally get to the Thramas Crusade. Otherwise I shall spend many restless nights weeping

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Zaki66 wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

Almost anyone who would have to deal with him in person.

Next question!

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Zaki66 wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

Almost anyone who would have to deal with him in person.

Next question!

Unless you're idiodic enough to talk back to a Primarch, he's not going to kill you.

We derailed somewhere. Who said the Lion was going to kill you?

 Shidank wrote:
We derailed somewhere. Who said the Lion was going to kill you?

Because that is the only negative to potentially meeting him in person? Otherwise he's the top tactician of the Legions to the point that even Guilliman stands under the shadow he casts.

No, the negative to meeting him in person would be his uncanny ability to make everyone super uncomfortable.

 Shidank wrote:
No, the negative to meeting him in person would be his uncanny ability to make everyone super uncomfortable.

Doesn't that depend on which author is portraying the Lion though? I remember him inspiring fierce devotion and awe in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Same in Unremembered Empire. The only one who was uncomfortable was Guilliman, because he couldn't read his intentions. Zahariel was fine as well when they went stargazing (the impression the Lion gave him was of one so far removed from everyone else that he was really lonely). In fact, the meeting left him with hope for a brighter future on Caliban.

The Lion was distant, sure, but I'm not sure he could be described as making people super uncomfortable. At least not in most depictions we see of him.

 Shidank wrote:
The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

I'm sure he wanted more than literally nothing otherwise he would have sat around somewhere on Caliban and starved.

He wanted to be Warmaster for one. And he wanted to exterminate the Great Beasts. He also wanted to turn his peoples' gaze towards the stars. And he wanted to conquer worlds for the Emperor. He definitely had ambition.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.

Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.

But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.

Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.

But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.

That's only from his depiction in The Lion, which is only a short story in The Primarchs (Anthology) rather than a full novel in the series. And his version of the Lion and DA were based on Aaron Dembski-Bowden versions, which are very different from their depiction in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Obviously there's a continuity problem here. In Unremembered Empire they seem more like their novel counterparts again but with some elements from ADB carried over. And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.

So yea, read my previous post

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.

Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.

But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.

That's only from his depiction in The Lion, which is only a short story in The Primarchs (Anthology) rather than a full novel in the series. And his version of the Lion and DA were based on Aaron Dembski-Bowden versions, which are very different from their depiction in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Obviously there's a continuity problem here. In Unremembered Empire they seem more like their novel counterparts again but with some elements from ADB carried over. And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.

So yea, read my previous post

The Lion in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angel is a sociopath without any capacity for empathy who makes backhanded deals to make himself Warmaster, and is so obviously smugly sure of his deserving of the rank, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.

Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.

But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.

You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Lion in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angel is a sociopath without any capacity for empathy who makes backhanded deals to make himself Warmaster, and is so obviously smugly sure of his deserving of the rank, lol.

Might I point you to my post in the Warmaster thread? There's plenty of evidence that he was a serious contender for the title and that it wasn't just some smug delusion on his part.

Here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638410.page#7641010

And he's not as bad as you describe if the opinions of the characters in the novels are anything to go by.

Honestly, it really depends on the author IMO. Some of the stuff they write is just plain idiotic.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
And the guy he killed was an extremely important character in the previous two novels so it's still possible his death will be retconned for the plot to move forward.

Or maybe the real reason he was killed is because he's a bad character from a bad novel and he should feel bad. I'd be surprised if we ever see anything of him again.

 Shidank wrote:
No, the negative to meeting him in person would be his uncanny ability to make everyone super uncomfortable.

Is he getting naked or something? I'd feel uncomfortable...

All of them.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

He decapitated his highest ranking Chaplain with his bare hand because said Chaplain had the audacity to suggest that maybe the Emperor's edicts should be followed.

Can you name a single other loyalist Primarch who has done similar? Marines from other Legions have talked back to Leman Russ. Sigismund talking back to Dorn resulted in punishment, but not decapitation. Argel Tal fething attacked Angron and survived, and a human woman (Lotara) has talked back to him as well.

But the Lion, who kills his officers for the most minor of transgressions, is this likable guy? Come on now, lol.

Is he such a bad general, though? We are not talking about hugs and kisses.

Going into this thread I was thinking "Oh, Angron, no question." So I voted Angron and low and behold everyone else seems to be of the same mind except for a few that voted Lorgar which admittedly isn't a bad choice. But everyone else was least a competent leader if not a visionary or cunning one. The only exceptions being the zealot (Lorgar) and the psychopath (Angron).

You have to be willing to accept all depictions as the same character viewed through a multitude of eyes. Just because it may seem different, the close quarters writing of the HH books come together to form a portrait of the Primarch wherein you should look to all sources equally.

The Lion was not friendly. He was pragmatic. He just tried harder than Pert to be likeable. That, in turn, made him seem even more inhuman. He was one of the single most uncomfortable Primarchs of all, and that includes Angron.

This, perhaps more than anything, is why I chose him as the most powerful Primarch. He doesn't worry half as often about the petty crap his brothers might. He is one of the most brilliant, if not THE most brilliant, tactician in the Imperium and has a Legion regarded by most as suicide to engage one on one. He is brutally effective, capable of miming even the most advanced etiquette rules, and has a penchant for writing down which facial expressions match which emotions.

I wish Kurze would have finished choking the life from The Lion. Would have made for a great hatred between the two armies, and I would have the benefit of my favorite primarch killing my friends favorite!

I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.

Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).

Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.

 Khonsu wrote:
Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.

To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.

"It would have been too easy."

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.

To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.

"It would have been too easy."

Wasn't this in attempt to prove to Guilliman that he was indeed a comparable (if not superior) general?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.

To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.

"It would have been too easy."

I believe it's that "I'm Alpharius" + "Everything is an Alpha Legion plot" memes getting to people's heads.
Also I prefer Perturabo's practical approach, There's a reason other Primarchs used him to help them strategize

Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."

Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss

 Jpogfreak886 wrote:
Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.

Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).

As someone who is pretty vocal against Angron in this thread, I do like Angron, I like his character since ADB wrote him, and he is a sympathetic character and you can see why he is like he is. But he still is definitely the worst of the Primarchs in terms of skills as a general and leadership.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:
Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."

Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss

Perturabo is one of my favourite Primarchs. I really liked him in AE. He was a very competent if pragmatic general and tactician.

I don't think Alpharius was ineffective. I think he was very effective, his methods definitely worked, they were just a very roundabout way to get to the same solution his brothers did. But I imagine his legion received fewer losses as a result of his tactics, and it would have helped against some enemies that the other legions might have had some trouble cracking. The main issue was time, it took longer generally to fight the way the AL did. But there were 18 legions and a galaxy full of enemies, I definitely think there was a place for Alpharius' tactics.