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 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

In every single one of these poll threads lately, we've managed to bait Lion lovers into raging at the fact that we want him included/excluded in the poll, I couldn't let the pattern go undone.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'. All the numbers have been bumped up more recently, since Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were written. So there wasn't that much less Thousand Sons than there were SW (SW are around 110000 or something I think, TS are at least 80000). And yes, thank you very much, I know about both the SoS and Custodes. But they were still assaulting a planet, and do we even know how many Custodes/SoS there actually were?

Seriously, Russ did a pretty good job at the razing of Prospero. He hardly did anything wrong did he.

As for Curze, he literally hated his legionnaires, didn't care what they did, and had little to no control over them.

Why has everyone got so aggressive around here? Jesus.

Whether or not the 1ksons had 80,000 or 10,000... the majority of their defences were taken down by Magnus willingly before the assault even began. Magnus sent away their fleet, clouded his own prescient psykers, blinded their own sensor net and took all technological shields offline. He was trying to thwart Tzeentech by not entirely destroying the wolves in their attack; he only intervened when he could no longer stand by and watch his sons be slaughtered like the traitors they weren't.

I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.

I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.

 Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Curze is a bad general yes.

Russ and the Wolves were attacking a Legion who were both dug in and on their home turf, and were also incredibly potent psykers which is a pretty big equaliser. Even with the Custodes and SoS, they were at quite a disadvantage. Also, the Thousand Sons weren't the smallest legion. The Raven Guard were the smalles legion at 80,000 so the Thousand Sons are still a pretty damn big force. Russ did pretty okay in that situation.

I'd recheck, The Thousand Sons were 10,000 Marines at their prime, Besides they weren't dug in comparatively speaking, They had no Orbital Defences and Prospero was basically neglected defence-wise.
Saying the Wolves were at a disadvantage is preposterous at best, Do not exaggerate.

Russ did bad, SoS AND CUSTODES ON HIS SIDE!!!
you know what Custodes are and how powerful they are?
Do you know SoS basically counter psychic powers, The Sons' entire shtick?
Besides having the flesh change transform many of their marines into Spawn...

Angron has the nails as his excuse, Besides showing himself to be intelligent when he managed to suppress them, What is Russ' excuse?

And How is Curze a bad general?
I seriously want examples.

I guess I could counter by asking for examples of tactical acumen that makes him stand out when compared to other legions. For the most part, his most difficult campaigns seem to have been fought alongside other legions who ended up calling him a dirtbag.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.

I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.

There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.

Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospero. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.

Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).

 Otto Weston wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.

I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.

There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.

Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospoer. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.

Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).

I can see where you're coming from. On paper, this does look bad for Russ. To the more realistic of us who know the Space Wolves are better than we give them credit for, this really speaks more to the power of the Thousand Sons. The shield that saved Tizca is the only reason the Wolves even came down. It was a concentrated ball of Thousand Son power.

Tough nut to crack, wouldn't you agree?

***Added
I also believe I've read numbers along the lines of what you're reporting before. I think that misfortune and mutation did limit the numbers of the Thousand Sons severely.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.

Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight

That would be funny.

Angron: The diggingest Primarch


I actually thought this scene was of particular import for showing us how far off Angron was. A Space Marine can orient themselves with relative ease, so how hard should it be for a Primarch?

Yeah that's what I'm getting at, that shows the power of the TS more than any flaws of Russes or the SW.

Also, that 'canon' number, isn't canon anymore. Since TS and PB were written, the numbers of all the legions have been increased, and the RG are the smallest, canonically now. At 80,000 legionnaires. That is canon. It's in HH3: Extermination. The numbers for the TS are before the size increase took place.

 Shidank wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.

I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.

There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.

Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospoer. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.

Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).

I can see where you're coming from. On paper, this does look bad for Russ. To the more realistic of us who know the Space Wolves are better than we give them credit for, this really speaks more to the power of the Thousand Sons. The shield that saved Tizca is the only reason the Wolves even came down. It was a concentrated ball of Thousand Son power.

Tough nut to crack, wouldn't you agree?

***Added
I also believe I've read numbers along the lines of what you're reporting before. I think that misfortune and mutation did limit the numbers of the Thousand Sons severely.

Yeah Prospero was a Tough nut... and should have been even tougher. Shame the 1ksons were forced to join Horus but that was Tzeentech's plan all along and you can't really out-fox him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah that's what I'm getting at, that shows the power of the TS more than any flaws of Russes or the SW.

Also, that 'canon' number, isn't canon anymore. Since TS and PB were written, the numbers of all the legions have been increased, and the RG are the smallest, canonically now. At 80,000 legionnaires. That is canon. It's in HH3: Extermination. The numbers for the TS are before the size increase took place.

Well if the 1ksons had >80,000 on Prospero, their losses would have been closer to 99%. Even still, the Wolves out-numbered them and we don't know how many died in the flashy laser lightshow, outside of Tizca.

The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.

So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win

I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.

That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.

So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win

I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.

That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.

I'm not calling Russ a bad general for having a hard time. I'm calling him a bad general for attacking in the first place. He should have continued his bombardment from orbit; the kine shield wouldn't have lasted forever and it's not like Russ had time constraints, he could have taken as much time as he needed to obliterate Prospero from orbit.

I think that a quick kill is preferred when dealing with space wizards, don't you?

I never thought about that actually. He probably could've done it from orbit. Maybe he wanted to do it personally, seeing as it was his brother he was trying to kill. Maybe he just wanted to be sure. Maybe he just wanted it done quickly, either because he felt guilty (and it was a case of ripping the plaster off, get it over and done with), or because he just wanted to move on with the Crusade. I dunno, I'm sure he had his reasons. Does it explain it in Prospero Burns? I can't recall.

 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

 Zaki66 wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

 Shidank wrote:

 Zaki66 wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

 ImAGeek wrote:
The way I'm thinking it might've gone, say the TS were 100,000 strong, and after the Council of Nikea, they take 10,000 back to Prospero to do secret sorcery stuff. You'd think they ones they keep on Prospero would be the big Psykers then right? The 10% of the legion that was psykers.

So basically it was a planet garrisoned by 10,000 very powerful psykers. Still a very hard nut to crack, and still keeps the numbers as they are now. So we all win

I know that Russ lost a lot of people at Prospero but attacking a planet guarded by the Thousand Sons, is no easy feat. Yes they had a numerical advantage, but we've seen from the novels how much of an equaliser psychic powers can be. I think the fact that the SW had such a hard time at Prospero is due to the TS strength, not the SW weakness, and calling Russ a bad general because they had a hard time at Prospero is doing him a disservice in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to say.

That and the numbers thing. They've really upped the numbers of all the legions more recently which means some of the older HH novels aren't canonically correct in terms of numbers now. They range from 80,000 (Raven Guard) to 250,000 (Ultramarines). Much better numbers, imo. Much more realistic and legion like.

They are explicitly stated to not be all psykers, Regarding the ones on Prospero in the time of the attack, Also considering their extreme genetic instability it's very unlikely they'd outnumber another legion considering so many of them turned into spawn in the first place.
Besides Russ had every tool in his disposal to deal with their Psychic powers, He was literally outplayed by Magnus' Captains (Phosis T'kar, Khalophis and Ahriman IIRC)

I think Curze was one of the best generals. What do generals do? They set strategy. If it's effective - they're good generals. If it's not - they're not good generals. And as far as i'm concerned, Night Lord's strategy was at the peak of it's effectiveness. They've won most wars without even fighting.

And "leading his men...loving his legion" are just sentiments. None of this is a general's priority quality. The outcome of the fights determines how good a general is and nothing else. When Curze occupies an entire sector having razed just a couple of towns in a few night's period without unnecessery casualties on his legions' part - that's the best result you can think of.

The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.

What do you think a general is supposed to do in the first place?

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.

What do you think a general is supposed to do in the first place?

Huh? You said Curze was a good general because he set the NL strategy and it won wars without even fighting, but the VIIIth Legion were fighting in exactly the same way before Curze was discovered so he didn't set their strategy.

In my mind, to be a good general you need to be able to at least have some semblance of control over your men. Curze had little control over most of the NL, because he didn't even care what they did.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords were fighting exactly those kind of wars before Curze came along.

What do you think a general is supposed to do in the first place?

Huh? You said Curze was a good general because he set the NL strategy and it won wars without even fighting, but the VIIIth Legion were fighting in exactly the same way before Curze was discovered so he didn't set their strategy.

In my mind, to be a good general you need to be able to at least have some semblance of control over your men. Curze had little control over most of the NL, because he didn't even care what they did.

Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.

If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.

 koooaei wrote:
Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.

If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.

Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.

If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.

Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?

Haven't read this piece of fluff yet
What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.

And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.

 koooaei wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Basically, no legion introduced drastical tactix changes when Primarchs took over. Cause they were made out of the same geneseed and had identical preferences. That's not what a general's needed for. Soldiers know how to fight anyway. A general is needed to coordinate their actions and plan on the tactical moves. Which Curze did and quite effectively.

If you read about Curze and Night Lords on the whole, you'd find out that he became careless and insane only in the last days. Yes, he had always hated his legion cause he knew who they really are - merciless killers without a sence of justice which was a №1 priority for him. But Curze was a fair and calm ruler nevertheless. And he was always in controle. Not even once he rushed somewhere wasting his own men for no good reason just cause of some no-name person called him bad names. And not even once has he started a useless brawl cause of some selfish reasons.

Didn't he mindlessly sacrifice the entire Night Lords elite in Prince of Crows in a ill-advised assault on the DA flagship because he wanted to get back at the Lion?

Haven't read this piece of fluff yet
What i've read was some FW fluff about Night Haunter and Night Lords + some random stuff here and there.

And once again we're back to different sources = different fluff.

Haha, it makes discussions like this really difficult. You have to have read everything written to have the full picture because they can't make up their minds on stuff. Some of the fluff does have Curze as a decent general, and some has him as a crazed animal.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.

It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.

There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.

It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.

There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.

Again, since Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons were written is when the change was. So the contradictory stuff is now outdated fluff. Laurie Golding said that he and Alan Bligh crunch all the numbers when Alan writes the FW books to make sure they're all correct.

Even if the RG were the smallest 'at the time' (which was after Horus was made Warmaster, so wasn't long before the Heresy) that still means that all the other legions were more than 80,000, and it was only a couple of years before the heresy, so there wasn't time for those numbers to change drastically before the Heresy broke out.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Seriously, the Raven Guard are the smallest legion at 80,000. It's in Extermination, it literally says the words 'the Raven Guard were the smallest legion'.

It does, but I'm assuming it means "at the time," as that was after the assault on Gate 42. They were mentioned as 90,000 strong in Deliverance Lost, I believe (could be wrong). Incidentally, Corax essentially used it to cull warrior lodges from the Raven Guard. The Thousand Sons numbered only 1,000 SMs due to the Flesh Change when Magnus was discovered, and Ahriman said he was able to save 1,000 Thousand Sons on Prospero, which in his own words was one tenth of the Legion strength (A Thousand Sons). The Emperor's Children got their name from saving the Emperor at Proxima, where they suffered grievous losses, and numbered a mere 200 when they were united with Fulgrim. However, the Legions' ability to replenish must've been much higher in the 31st millenia, and it's mentioned in Legion that all Legions, bar the Alpha Legion, had their gene-seed deteriorate because of keeping up to strength during the Great Crusade.

There's a lot of contradictory fluff going on tbh.

Again, since Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons were written is when the change was. So the contradictory stuff is now outdated fluff. Laurie Golding said that he and Alan Bligh crunch all the numbers when Alan writes the FW books to make sure they're all correct.

Even if the RG were the smallest 'at the time' (which was after Horus was made Warmaster, so wasn't long before the Heresy) that still means that all the other legions were more than 80,000, and it was only a couple of years before the heresy, so there wasn't time for those numbers to change drastically before the Heresy broke out.

I know, I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that the fluff does contradict itself quite a bit

So really we should all sell our BL books and buy the FW stuff