The discussion in the Primarch thread made me think a little: since we can find logical explanations for seemingly irrational things in the 40k universe, maybe another topic that is usually dismissed as illogical could also have some plausibility behind it?
Consider the Space Marines, a faction that is often dismissed as childish and unusable in practice. In order to determine how useful they actually are, we must assess:
1. Their effectiveness and efficiency
2. Their numbers
Now, 1. will continue to be entirely unpredictable depending on who wrote the story you're reading, and the fact that they are wearing armour of handwavium, firing handwavium bullets and have bodies enhanced with master-crafted handwavinators means that they are as effective as you want them to be. But for the same of the argument, let's assume that on an individual basis, they are at least reasonably powerful.
2. is considered by many to be evidence of why Space Marines don't work, one million Marines for one million planets? But I ran the maths and they actually do seem to work. We have the Imperium of one million planets. Given it is capable of supporting itself despite lots of internal strife, we can probably guess that no more than maybe a percent of the planets are currently under assault or otherwise a war theatre. It could be 2%, it could be 0.5%, but it's unlikely to be much more as the Imperium thus far has not collapsed in on itself.
If 1% of the planets are currently warzones, that means you have 100 Space Marines per planet.
Now, many of these planets are going to be attacked by enemies that the Guard are going to handle on their own. It's not an unreasonable guess that 80% of these front-line warzones are ones the Guard can hold without their big friends, or where Marines would not have made a difference anyway. The remaining 20%, which for various reasons need super-soldiers to attack command structures, hold key points and so on, can therefore have ~500 Space Marines each assigned to them. 500 supersoldiers striking fast, hitting hard and then redeploying to where they need to be is going to make a lot of difference.
Ashiraya wrote: The discussion in the Primarch thread made me think a little: since we can find logical explanations for seemingly irrational things in the 40k universe, maybe another topic that is usually dismissed as illogical could also have some plausibility behind it?
Consider the Space Marines, a faction that is often dismissed as childish and unusable in practice. In order to determine how useful they actually are, we must assess:
a
1. Their effectiveness and efficiency
2. Their numbers
Now, 1. will continue to be entirely unpredictable depending on who wrote the story you're reading, and the fact that they are wearing armour of handwavium, firing handwavium bullets and have bodies enhanced with master-crafted handwavinators means that they are as effective as you want them to be. But for the same of the argument, let's assume that on an individual basis, they are at least reasonably powerful.
2. is considered by many to be evidence of why Space Marines don't work, one million Marines for one million planets? But I ran the maths and they actually do seem to work. We have the Imperium of one million planets. Given it is capable of supporting itself despite lots of internal strife, we can probably guess that no more than maybe a percent of the planets are currently under assault or otherwise a war theatre. It could be 2%, it could be 0.5%, but it's unlikely to be much more as the Imperium thus far has not collapsed in on itself.
If 1% of the planets are currently warzones, that means you have 100 Space Marines per planet.
Now, many of these planets are going to be attacked by enemies that the Guard are going to handle on their own. It's not an unreasonable guess that 80% of these front-line warzones are ones the Guard can hold without their big friends, or where Marines would not have made a difference anyway. The remaining 20%, which for various reasons need super-soldiers to attack command structures, hold key points and so on, can therefore have ~500 Space Marines each assigned to them. 500 supersoldiers striking fast, hitting hard and then redeploying to where they need to be is going to make a lot of difference.
At that point, SM don't need to be rationalized. They were directly established by the Emperor ten thousand years prior. In-universe, whether they are a reasonable military formation is irrelevant by that point.
Great Crusade-era SM formations, however, that is another question.
What I mean is, their existence is justified historically and probably (in the eyes of most higher ups on Terra) religiously. Therefore, whether the High Lords find them as cost effective as Guard regiments, or whatever, is immaterial. Not to mention, most SM chapters provide for themselves so there is nobody on Terra to pull the plug, budget-wise.
The existing background info makes it clear that SM are very useful to Imperial commanders but can also be disruptive. If nothing else, there is a problem inasmuch as chapters are by definition not part of a unified command structure. They are free to basically do as they please, although they sometimes operate within the remit of ancient treaties.
There is no doubt that SM are good at what they do. Whether that justifies the costs of doing it is another question but one that no one in the Imperium outside of the chapter in question* has a right to do more than idly consider.
*except the Inquisition, at least according to the Inqusition
Ashiraya wrote: I am trying to look at how they could be a reasonably useful military organisation even in 40k.
Sci-Fi writers have no sense of scale. Take everything and scale it up by a factor of 10 or 100 (e.g, chapter sizes of 100,000 marine), and then maybe space marines would be a reasonably useful fighting force in a universe of 40k's scale.
Ashiraya wrote: I am trying to look at how they could be a reasonably useful military organisation even in 40k.
Sci-Fi writers have no sense of scale. Take everything and scale it up by a factor of 10 or 100 (e.g, chapter sizes of 100,000 marine), and then maybe space marines would be a reasonably useful fighting force in a universe of 40k's scale.
I adressed the 'Space Marines are too few' copypasta in the OP.
Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
Soteks Prophet wrote: The issue is that SM are the poster boys when the 'reality' should be the AM/IG
Do you watch Star Trek for the redshirts? No? So why would you do the same with 40k? The Guardsmen are there to die, and hold the line. They're supposed to be nameless, faceless soldiers.
Ashiraya wrote: you didn't watch Star Wars II for the battle droids...
It's so weird to see someone reference Star Wars but referring to the prequels rather than the sequels. Although I guess it is harder to say, you didn't watch Star Wars for the Clone Troops because for better or worse they were probably the coolest aspect of the prequel movies.
Ashiraya wrote:You didn't watch Lord of the Rings for the Gondor soldiers,
Erm... I did. Those guys are hardcore! (yes, I am a bit of a Gondor fan)
Manchu wrote:You're talking about M41-42 right?
At that point, SM don't need to be rationalized. They were directly established by the Emperor ten thousand years prior. In-universe, whether they are a reasonable military formation is irrelevant by that point.
Great Crusade-era SM formations, however, that is another question.
This is a very good point; the Space Marine Legions operated almost like the Guard of 40k, in that they just applied brute force in amounts so excessive that no army in the galaxy could resist it. In those days, you could happily through Space Marines by the thousand into system/planet-wide wars of attrittion and not worry about lacking manpower elsewhere, there are that many of them. The difference between them and Guardsmen being that 1 Space Marine is still worth 100 IG (bit optimistic, but whatever), so the sheer force of a Space Marine Legion on the attack is pretty much unrivalled by the biggest armies in 40k (except possibly a Hive Fleet or the largest of the Black Crusades. 40k Loyalists couldn't hope to match it, really).
So by the time you get to 40k, it doesn't matter how effective they are (although I'll get to that in a minute), as you can't just get rid of them or say they are redundant. They define the Imperium for better or worse, and out-of-universe, reflect how it has changed from a pragmatic, supreme power to a dogmatic, monolithic and stagnant institution.
But getting back to the OP, your point about the number of planets vs the number actually a) requiring Space Marine help and b) that Space Marines actually could help is a very good and oft-overlooked one. It's no secret that the Space Marines in 40k are spread pretty thin, and the brunt of the fighting falls on the Poor Bloody Infantry of the Imperial Guard, but that doesn't blunt the effectiveness of the Space Marines as a tool. In general, I don't think a Company or two of Space Marines can win you a war you are going to lose, outside of some truly exceptional feats, but what they can achieve is winning that war next week rather than a decade later. That in turn frees up IG regiments, Ad Mech resources, potentially even Stormtroopers/Sisters/Other Imperial elite troops to then help out somewhere else. Space Marines and Guard are like a kango drill and a pick; if you need to bust up some concrete, both will do the job, but the drill will get it done far faster, and you can go and have a cup of tea (ship out to another warzone in the case of the SM/IG) far sooner.
ThePrimordial wrote: Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
Well, the 30k Marines received almost as much brainwashing as the 40k Marines do, and the brainwashing and indoctrination is all done during training.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: Am I weird for growing up with the prequels and thus seeing them as the main ones?
Manchu has the right of it and I'll paraphrase an earlier post I made in the 'Why do Space Marines even exist?' thread, the Emperor's original intention, in His fight against the Chaos Powers, was to create firstly, the Primarchs, and then a whole race of super-humans who would be immune to the influence of Chaos. This plan did not succeed as the foetal Primarchs were scattered through time and space by the Chaos Gods and, due to the imminent birth of Slaanesh, the Primarchs could not be replicated the Emperor was forced to implement a contingency plan. Using left-over genetic material from the Primarchs discreet biological organs could be created that would give an ordinary human some of the abilities of the Primarchs and so the Space Marines were created.
Whether or not you accept the Realm of Chaos background as true or not, it does establish what the ideas were regarding why Space Marines exist in the first place. Their continued existence in the 41st Millennium is immaterial, firstly because they are a faction which already exists, so, even if they were completely redundant it wouldn't matter, a sort of what has been seen cannot be unseen scenario. Secondly they weren't supposed to exist anyway, the Emperor was forced to create them out of necessity.
The point about Astartes only being required for so many wars though is a good one and despite the tagline of there is only war, that just isn't true, with only warzones like Cadia or Armageddon being semi-permanent. Even in the novels most planets/systems get invaded during the course of the story having been peaceful beforehand, usually for centuries and several generations of PDF have never fought, hence the requirement for the Guard/Astartes/et cetera to come in and save the day (or not).
Ashiraya wrote: Am I weird for growing up with the prequels and thus seeing them as the main ones?
I don't know if you're weird but I doubt just being born at a certain time could make you weird. What is weird, and weird is a relative term inasmuch as it implies a subjective point of view, and therefore by implication I mean what is weird from my perspective, is that someone would see Episodes I, II, and III as the main ones no matter when they were born seeing as how they are bloody awful.
Gogsnik wrote: due to the imminent birth of Slaanesh, the Primarchs could not be replicated the Emperor was forced to implement a contingency plan
What? It was the manifestation of Slaanesh that prevented the Emperor from making new primarchs? I always figured it was one of those things, like making the Simarils, that can only be done once. (And more particularly, I hypothesize that the Emperor had the help of the Ruinous Powers in creating the primarchs.)
Gogsnik wrote: due to the imminent birth of Slaanesh, the Primarchs could not be replicated the Emperor was forced to implement a contingency plan
What? It was the manifestation of Slaanesh that prevented the Emperor from making new primarchs? I always figured it was one of those things, like making the Simarils, that can only be done once. (And more particularly, I hypothesize that the Emperor had the help of the Ruinous Powers in creating the primarchs.)
I also thought the Fall of the Eldar/Birth of Slaneesh was waaay before the year 30k or even earlier, and that the Eldar were at their height pre-Fall while humanity was still pond-life.
Gogsnik wrote: due to the imminent birth of Slaanesh, the Primarchs could not be replicated the Emperor was forced to implement a contingency plan
What? It was the manifestation of Slaanesh that prevented the Emperor from making new primarchs? I always figured it was one of those things, like making the Simarils, that can only be done once. (And more particularly, I hypothesize that the Emperor had the help of the Ruinous Powers in creating the primarchs.)
Isn't this fairly well established? The Emperor made a bargain with the gods and in return they forked up the space juju needed to create the primarchs. Makes sense that the Big E would have some troubles remaking them in that situation.
That being said, I was under the impression that the Emperor didn't attempt to remake them not because he couldn't (at least not specifically), but because he had the material he needed to create his army (space marines).
Manchu wrote: It certainly is well established in my mind but I'm not sure where I read it or what.
I think it popped up somewhere in the first three books of the HH. Though it could have been a quote from Erebus, if so it's likely a load of horse-gak or at least a severe twisting of the truth.
In Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned it says. "The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it. The birth pangs of Slaanesh grew louder and louder as the time of his waking grew near. The Emperor evolved another plan."
In the context of the efficacy of the Astartes there is really not much point in disproving their usefulness in the 41st Millennium because the reason for why they were created wasn't planned for not is it clear what role they would have played had the Horus Heresy not happened, afterall the Thunder Warriors were designed to simply die once they had served their purpose.
I think the timeline has become quite a big mess. I'm not entirely sure WHEN it became a big mess, but it has.
Traditionally, my understanding was:
Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade
But now, it seems to have gotten messy with the Birth of Slaanesh = The Age of Strife. But that just falls down logically, because, how are the Eldar supposed to have conquered the galaxy at the same time as humanity has conquered the galaxy? It makes more sense to me that during humanities colonisation of the galaxy, the Eldar were busy trying to put the shattered remains of their civilisation back together.
As for the efficiency of the Astartes. Yeah, it realy is 'science fiction writers have no sense of scale'. I've tried to rationalise it before even with 'movie marines' but it just doesn't work. Planets are just simply too big. - How many major military installations or command and control networks are there on Earth? The answer is 'lots.'
I mean, not even looking at the 'big boys' in world military super powers, how many marines are you going to send to, say, Germany, to defeat their command and control networks, or to make their military ineffective in a world wide assault of multiple simultaneous devastating deep strikes.
The answer is going to be more than one.
Of course, the 'real' answer would be, bomb the heck out of the planet for a good decade or so before launching your invasion. But that'd be sensible and boring, and the 40k universe doesn't work that way.
Ashiraya wrote: Am I weird for growing up with the prequels and thus seeing them as the main ones?
I don't know if you're weird but I doubt just being born at a certain time could make you weird. What is weird, and weird is a relative term inasmuch as it implies a subjective point of view, and therefore by implication I mean what is weird from my perspective, is that someone would see Episodes I, II, and III as the main ones no matter when they were born seeing as how they are bloody awful.
They were only as awful as the Horus Heresy, which really is only semi-awful.
Gogsnik wrote: due to the imminent birth of Slaanesh, the Primarchs could not be replicated the Emperor was forced to implement a contingency plan
What? It was the manifestation of Slaanesh that prevented the Emperor from making new primarchs? I always figured it was one of those things, like making the Simarils, that can only be done once. (And more particularly, I hypothesize that the Emperor had the help of the Ruinous Powers in creating the primarchs.)
I also thought the Fall of the Eldar/Birth of Slaneesh was waaay before the year 30k or even earlier, and that the Eldar were at their height pre-Fall while humanity was still pond-life.
I could be wrong, though.
The Fall occurred long before the Great Crusade, but that was just the beginning of the Birth of Slaanesh, when Warp Storms started. Once Slaanesh was done nomming almost the entirety of the Eldar race, he was "born" insomuch as he was fully formed.
ThePrimordial wrote: Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back in 30k there was no question of cost.
You produced a 7ft 600lb fighting machine that unarmored could deadlift 2500lbs (from FFG) bench 1850 (scaled from deadlift and based off a normal trained human), react 5 times faster than any man, and keep up a running speed of 30mph.
And all it took was 30 years, monitoring, some implants, and a gene seed. That gak was so worth it.
But in the 40th millennium with the mental aspect of the training taking another 30 years and with even more procedures? I think it's still worth it, but not nearly as much.
It doesn't take 30 or 60 years to make a space marine. It takes 10 at most.
You start with 10-12 year old boys, by the time they're 19-20 they've received the final implants and been inducted as Battle Brothers. Space in the chapter allowing of course.
Gogsnik wrote: In Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned it says. "The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it. The birth pangs of Slaanesh grew louder and louder as the time of his waking grew near. The Emperor evolved another plan."
In the context of the efficacy of the Astartes there is really not much point in disproving their usefulness in the 41st Millennium because the reason for why they were created wasn't planned for not is it clear what role they would have played had the Horus Heresy not happened, afterall the Thunder Warriors were designed to simply die once they had served their purpose.
Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I think the timeline has become quite a big mess. I'm not entirely sure WHEN it became a big mess, but it has.
Traditionally, my understanding was:
Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade
But now, it seems to have gotten messy with the Birth of Slaanesh = The Age of Strife. But that just falls down logically, because, how are the Eldar supposed to have conquered the galaxy at the same time as humanity has conquered the galaxy? It makes more sense to me that during humanities colonisation of the galaxy, the Eldar were busy trying to put the shattered remains of their civilisation back together.
As for the efficiency of the Astartes. Yeah, it realy is 'science fiction writers have no sense of scale'. I've tried to rationalise it before even with 'movie marines' but it just doesn't work. Planets are just simply too big. - How many major military installations or command and control networks are there on Earth? The answer is 'lots.'
I mean, not even looking at the 'big boys' in world military super powers, how many marines are you going to send to, say, Germany, to defeat their command and control networks, or to make their military ineffective in a world wide assault of multiple simultaneous devastating deep strikes.
The answer is going to be more than one.
Of course, the 'real' answer would be, bomb the heck out of the planet for a good decade or so before launching your invasion. But that'd be sensible and boring, and the 40k universe doesn't work that way.
That timeline seems way outta wack. Humanity never conquered the galaxy, they colonized millions of planets, but the Eldar colonized a single section (see: Eye of Terror) and dominated the galaxy through diplomacy and war from those few hundred thousand planets.Something to remember, humanity had something like 5 million planets colonized (going off of a 5:1 ratio for Imperium-non-Imperium), give or take a few (million). There are supposedly fifty non-Imperial human worlds for every Imperial world, but I considered that a little off-base, so I went with 5:1 instead of 50:1.
Now, they were spread quite widely, why? Because a.) Their technology rivaled the Eldar b.) They were the biologically weakest race and c.) they were sensible enough to use diplomacy when possible. Their sense of diplomacy allowed them to form allies with Eldar and other alien species (see: DAoT). Now, it is directly stated in quite a few sources that the Fall of the Eldar also marked the fall of the human empires (I'll expand on this one). The primary reason for the Age of Strife (along with Psykers) was that Warp Storms isolated all of the human worlds, with almost no opportunity for human systems to remain in contact with eachother. This, coupled with the Psykers suddenly being born all over the galaxy and succumbing to Enslavers, Daemons, etc. led to humanity being enslaved, slaughtered, etc.
I'd say the timeline is more like War in Heaven -> Eldar Empire -> Pleasure Cults -> Humans begin colonizing/ DAoT begins -> Human Psykers begin evolving; entire worlds destroyed in Enslaver and Daemon invasions/ Age of Strife begins -> Birth of Slaanesh begins/ Fall of Eldar/Warp Storms isolate the galaxy -> Emperor reveals himself, unites earth, and conquers the Sol Solar System -> Great Crusade -> Horus Heresy
Compel wrote: Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'
They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place
Orblivion wrote: The fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh happened around M30. It was the birth of Slaanesh that calmed the warp enough for the Great Crusade to begin.
Yes, that's what I said. Birth of Slaanesh was what stopped the Warp Storms. It was his birthing process that caused them in the first place, though.
Orblivion wrote: The fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh happened around M30. It was the birth of Slaanesh that calmed the warp enough for the Great Crusade to begin.
Yes, that's what I said. Birth of Slaanesh was what stopped the Warp Storms. It was his birthing process that caused them in the first place, though.
I should have used quotes, but I wasn't contradicting you I was clarifying for Compel.
eh, not much sense can really be made from angry, human tank, xenophobic religious zealots. Plus when you factor in the balance =/= fluff in Wh40k, space marines make much more sence. IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort. Mind you, not a planet with a multi million strong PDF.
Brennonjw wrote: IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort.
No, he can't. A single Marine going rogue is a big problem, but he can't hold any ground alone - the moment he's wiped out the garrison of a small town and moves on, he has no longer 'taken over' that town.
Brennonjw wrote: IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort.
No, he can't. A single Marine going rogue is a big problem, but he can't hold any ground alone - the moment he's wiped out the garrison of a small town and moves on, he has no longer 'taken over' that town.
On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium. Seeing as 80%+ of what most Imperial citizens, even high-up ones, know of Space Marines is myth and hearsay, a single Marine turning up is going to have a huge effect. The governer of said planet is going to do everything he can to accomodate him, and if there are no other Astartes/Inquisitors present, if that one Marine says 'jump', most on the planet are going to ask 'how high', they wouldn't dare disobeying a Marine and it probably wouldn't even cross their minds that he could be lying.
At that point, he can push a populace to the edge of treachery and over it, and the whole while, none would be any the wiser. Heck, if he saves them from a small Ork/DE/indigenious Xenos raid or attack, they're going to be putting up statues of him, loyal to the Emperor or not. With no kinnd of outside information, they are going to trust him completely.
Now, could he hold that world if the Astartes try and take it back? Maybe not, certainly not alone, but give him a month or two and let his reputation spread, and a single Astartes could easily turn a world to openly defying the Imperium, probably without them even knowing until it is too late.
Paradigm wrote: On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium.
I don't see how a cosmetic salesman could possibly corrupt a world. :-)
Would your average rogue marine actually come up with such ideas? All he knows is battle and wargear - and those he does know well, no doubt. But politics is for the likes of Chapter Masters and Captains. A trooper would probably just demand food and ammo, maybe transportation so he could continue his escape. And the psycho-indoctrination sits deep. Making a last stand against his pursuers that causes major damage to an Imperial world is not something his conditioning would easily allow for even if he's decided to run.
Compel wrote: Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'
They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place
Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.
Paradigm wrote: On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium.
I don't see how a cosmetic salesman could possibly corrupt a world. :-)
Damn typos! And I thought I'd checked!
Would your average rogue marine actually come up with such ideas? All he knows is battle and wargear - and those he does know well, no doubt. But politics is for the likes of Chapter Masters and Captains. A trooper would probably just demand food and ammo, maybe transportation so he could continue his escape. And the psycho-indoctrination sits deep. Making a last stand against his pursuers that causes major damage to an Imperial world is not something his conditioning would easily allow for even if he's decided to run.
I think that if indivual Marines or small groups of them can break their conditioning enough to fall to Chaos or even turn renegade (see Huron, at the start it was lack of loyalty to the IoM rather than outright turning to Chaos) then they can think of turning others that way. Even just tacticallly, they know someone, some time will come for them, and they know they'll need an army when that happens, so it doesn't take genius-level intellect to put together that fact and the fact that you have a population of millions that will obey and accomodate their every wish.
Obviously it varies from Marine to Marine what his aim is, open rebellion or just freedom, but I certainly think it is within the realm of possibility that a single Marine could turn a populace.
Paradigm wrote: Obviously it varies from Marine to Marine what his aim is, open rebellion or just freedom, but I certainly think it is within the realm of possibility that a single Marine could turn a populace.
Possible, granted. But it would take a pretty special marine. Huron did his stuff out of pride (and maybe possession), thinking the Imperium unfairly demanded too much tribute from the worlds he controlled. And he was backed by his own overstrength Chapter and a few others, indebted to him for wargear and supplies. He still had to sway them a bit more with a speech about Space Marine rights, which "the High Lords are trying to take away".
Telling some random Imperial Governor to go against the very High Lords that keep him in power is going to take a lot of persuasion, and a marine is not an Inquisitor. He could perhaps kill the Governor and proclaim himself ruler, but that would lead to chaos - he needs the Governor's bureaucrats to rule and they're also the guys looking to take over as Governor. IMO a lone marine or a single squad would have much smaller goals, like surviving until tomorrow and stockpiling enough supplies that they don't need to sacrifice the last of their honor quite yet. I could see them agreeing to work for that Governor, however. Just keep them out of any official reports and help them with tech support, you have your own marine kill team. Their influence could grow over time ofc, to the point that they are making suggestions on policy. But that's not a matter of a few weeks.
Compel wrote: Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'
They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place
Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.
No, but they WERE the most powerful, and had the most influence
Compel wrote: Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'
They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place
Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.
No, but they WERE the most powerful, and had the most influence
While they were powerful, they were rivaled by mankind during the Dark Age of Technology, only their psychic power was greater. Technologically mankind was superior.
Nobody technologically surpasses DAoT mankind besides the Necrons. The Eldar were also content to wallow in their hedonistic ways without much concern for the rest of the galaxy. They were not ruling the galaxy in any way, shape, or form.
Nobody technologically surpasses DAoT mankind besides the Necrons.
Sauce?
I'd want to point at a magical ship that survived inside of a sun inside the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years as a sign of DAoT superiority, but then the Eldar had that entire revenant world with a black hole at its heart.
Honestly, I may have to give this one to the Eldar.
I'll demote my timeline thoughts to head canon then, as otherwise the Eldar are really treated massively unfairly. - Ruled the stars, pffft.
Anyhow, I'll add it to my head canon that Slaanesh's birth triggered the Roman Empire falling into decadence and eventually mankinds own dark age. - yes I'm quite happy to take Empty as the inspiration for the legend of St George too.
Mind you, in my head canon as well, I have Star Trek basically existing (in broad strokes anyhow) at the same time as the show.
But the thing is... When you start talking in terms of millenia the whole peace and democracy thing only lasts so long in the face of enemies like the orks and other nasties in the 40k galaxy. Eventually alliances fail, allies start turning on each other, friend starts turning on friend. Isolationists gain power, borders are closed.... Wars break out and the only ones left standing are the meanest, toughest, nastiest factions around. And then the Age of Strife begins and things start to actually go wrong.
Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade
In the Realm of Chaos books, the predators of the Warp only became a real threat roughly 10,000BC, prompting the Shamen to create the New Man (later known as the Emperor). Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were created by humans as they spread across the Earth but seem to have had little impact. The Eldar descent into hedonism took tens of thousands of years but Slaanesh only began to gestate as a power after humanity had already carved out an empire which was then torn apart by the madness unleashed by the growing Slaanesh, the period known as the Age of Strife, ending with the birth of Slaanesh just prior to the Great Crusade (this is what the Emperor was waiting for). The birth of Slaanesh was almost instantaneous, his form spilling through the minds of the Eldar and into the material universe creating all of the scattered zones of Warp/Real Space overlaps, the Eye of Terror being the most significant.
This is somewhat muddied by the first Necron Codex which has the War in Heaven, sixty million years before the Great Crusade, causing the upheavels that created Chaos/daemons/some-sort-of-proto-Chaos. That all ended with the Enslaver Plague, again, roughly sixty million years ago.
With the current Necron background that is again changed, the Enslaver Plague only obliquely mentioned, if at all, with the Silent King and the Necron rebellion against the C'tan now responsible for the Necron hibernation, not the Enslaver Plague.
None of that precludes humanity creating the first three Chaos Gods as per the older RoC background since, due to the nature of the Warp, the Chaos Gods can be simultaneously young and ancient. It would also seem that, even with the various additions to the material provided by the Horus Heresy novels, the older RoC background, in terms of the origins of the Emperor, the Primarchs, the Astartes is still the basis for all the subsequent background.
Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).
The functional immortality or otherwise of the Astartes is irrelevant. They were not purposefully designed, they were created out of necessity in order for the Emperor to begin His reconquest of the galaxy.
The Chaos Powers had no intention of killing the Emperor, going back through time or any such thing. With the events of Vengeful Spirit it is clear that the Emperor treated with the Chaos Powers and won their support, then He betrayed them; naturally enough seen as how He was created by the Shamen as the ultimate weapon against Chaos.
Neither was there an absolute victory for Chaos since they had invested themselves twice into mortal pawns, one of which was utterly annihilated, weakening the Chaos Gods greatly and, if the Star Child still exists, and there is no reason to suppose it does not, then the Emperor could be reinvigorated at any point or severed the mortal realm completely, finally able to disperse into the Warp where, depending on your view point, the Star Child would destroy/amalgamate the Chaos Gods ending their threat forever.
Again, there are also various other factors to consider such as the Emperor's original intention to create a new super-race with the Primarchs being only the first and the shadow point beyond which the Emperor could not see the future, which, when taken into conjunction with the scattering of the foetal Primarchs, could have ended at that point when the Emperor allowed Chaos to spirit them away, seeing His eventual ascension to godhood as a better way to ultimately defeat Chaos.
We can only speculate on what the Emperor may have intended but there are enough hints in the Horus Heresy novels to show that the Emperor was not merely reacting to the actions of the Chaos Powers nor what, if any of that is true, His intentions were for the eventual fate of the Astartes. Yes, the Astartes were cobbled together after the Primarchs were lost but the Emperor could have allowed that to become a reality abandoning all His previous plans once He was able to see the future again. In any event the Space Marines and even the Primarchs were only a means to an end for the Emperor.
Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade
In the Realm of Chaos books, the predators of the Warp only became a real threat roughly 10,000BC, prompting the Shamen to create the New Man (later known as the Emperor). Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were created by humans as they spread across the Earth but seem to have had little impact. The Eldar descent into hedonism took tens of thousands of years but Slaanesh only began to gestate as a power after humanity had already carved out an empire which was then torn apart by the madness unleashed by the growing Slaanesh, the period known as the Age of Strife, ending with the birth of Slaanesh just prior to the Great Crusade (this is what the Emperor was waiting for). The birth of Slaanesh was almost instantaneous, his form spilling through the minds of the Eldar and into the material universe creating all of the scattered zones of Warp/Real Space overlaps, the Eye of Terror being the most significant.
This is somewhat muddied by the first Necron Codex which has the War in Heaven, sixty million years before the Great Crusade, causing the upheavels that created Chaos/daemons/some-sort-of-proto-Chaos. That all ended with the Enslaver Plague, again, roughly sixty million years ago.
With the current Necron background that is again changed, the Enslaver Plague only obliquely mentioned, if at all, with the Silent King and the Necron rebellion against the C'tan now responsible for the Necron hibernation, not the Enslaver Plague.
None of that precludes humanity creating the first three Chaos Gods as per the older RoC background since, due to the nature of the Warp, the Chaos Gods can be simultaneously young and ancient. It would also seem that, even with the various additions to the material provided by the Horus Heresy novels, the older RoC background, in terms of the origins of the Emperor, the Primarchs, the Astartes is still the basis for all the subsequent background.
I find it difficult to believe that it took 60 million years for the Gods of Chaos to evolve. I mean, that's just such a vast period of time, even 1 million years would see a bit far fetched (though far more plausible) to me. Other than that though, this sounds far easier to swallow than the Eldar Gods battling Chaos for 60 mil years and then suddenly all getting eaten by a single God (except for c. 3 of them, out of an entire pantheon)
Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).
The functional immortality or otherwise of the Astartes is irrelevant. They were not purposefully designed, they were created out of necessity in order for the Emperor to begin His reconquest of the galaxy.
The Chaos Powers had no intention of killing the Emperor, going back through time or any such thing. With the events of Vengeful Spirit it is clear that the Emperor treated with the Chaos Powers and won their support, then He betrayed them; naturally enough seen as how He was created by the Shamen as the ultimate weapon against Chaos.
Neither was there an absolute victory for Chaos since they had invested themselves twice into mortal pawns, one of which was utterly annihilated, weakening the Chaos Gods greatly and, if the Star Child still exists, and there is no reason to suppose it does not, then the Emperor could be reinvigorated at any point or severed the mortal realm completely, finally able to disperse into the Warp where, depending on your view point, the Star Child would destroy/amalgamate the Chaos Gods ending their threat forever.
Again, there are also various other factors to consider such as the Emperor's original intention to create a new super-race with the Primarchs being only the first and the shadow point beyond which the Emperor could not see the future, which, when taken into conjunction with the scattering of the foetal Primarchs, could have ended at that point when the Emperor allowed Chaos to spirit them away, seeing His eventual ascension to godhood as a better way to ultimately defeat Chaos.
We can only speculate on what the Emperor may have intended but there are enough hints in the Horus Heresy novels to show that the Emperor was not merely reacting to the actions of the Chaos Powers nor what, if any of that is true, His intentions were for the eventual fate of the Astartes. Yes, the Astartes were cobbled together after the Primarchs were lost but the Emperor could have allowed that to become a reality abandoning all His previous plans once He was able to see the future again. In any event the Space Marines and even the Primarchs were only a means to an end for the Emperor.
My point was that, if the Emperor meant for Astartes to be expendable, he would've given them a time limit instead of making them last for thousands of years
We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.
Psienesis wrote: We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.
Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day
Psienesis wrote: We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.
before I respond, How are you describing "super advanced" ages? just so everyone is on the same page.
dusara217 wrote: I find it difficult to believe that it took 60 million years for the Gods of Chaos to evolve. I mean, that's just such a vast period of time, even 1 million years would see a bit far fetched (though far more plausible) to me. Other than that though, this sounds far easier to swallow than the Eldar Gods battling Chaos for 60 mil years and then suddenly all getting eaten by a single God (except for c. 3 of them, out of an entire pantheon)
Personally, this is why I feel so much of the background presented in the first Codex: Necrons is a steaming pile of grox dung. However, as I pointed out, current Necron background retcons the retcon, which was ambiguous to begin with; it hints at the beginning of Chaos but does not say one way or the other specifically and ended with the Enslaver Plague, Enslavers being warp creatures it makes it that much more difficult to put any definite interpretation on just what the smeg any of that Necron background was truly talking about.
The only thing to keep in mind is the timeless nature of the Warp and just what the Eldar Gods were. It's easier to imagine it with the old warpr storm analogy rather than the Greek God style GW went with at one point. If the Eldar gods, as manifestations of the Eldar psyche within the Warp, where in so far as these manifestations are sentient they are also a storm or warp energy. When Slaanesh was born it consumed all of the souls of the Eldar who are the basis for the gods and they had also been moving away from their worship of the old pantheon, further weakening their link with the old gods and when final fully born Slaanesh as the new, mightier manifestation of the Eldar consumed not only their souls but the gods already built by those souls. Those gods now are part of Slaanesh and if we return to the warp storm idea of how these gods exist then they are like dust devils within a cyclone.
It still doesn't preclude mankind creating the other three, these are manifestations of mankind's thoughts, dreams, souls, desires et cetera and despite what had ever come before in the universe no other race was as chaotic (small c) as humanity to enough of an extent to create such evil and destructive gods; until the Eldar finally made one of their own. Which is why the Cabal in the Horus Heresy novels want to sacrifice humanity, they probably don't have any connection with the Chaos Gods (except the Eldar members of course) and see humanity as the threat they are. Even Gork and Mork aren't that bad.
My only thing with this whole idea is that, like some people have already stated, is that GW and BL authors tend to have no bloody sense of scale. They really don't. I always thought SM chapters were way too small at 1,000 men. I thought heresy era legions were a much more reasonable number and the average legion size was between 80,000 and 100,000 brothers.
Psienesis wrote: We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.
Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day
What would be the point in giving you such an example if you’re just going to ignore it? I remember giving you a distinct example of an aged space marine, which you conveniently ignored in favor of that immortality fantasy of yours.
From what I understand, Space Marines don't really die of old age. I mean, how old is Commander Dante of the Blood Angels? Over a thousand years old? He doesn't appear to have lost any step. The fact is, Space Marines usually die in combat before they get very aged anyway so we'll never really know.
Ashiraya wrote: Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.
Not to mention humans are constantly referred to as "mortals" by space marines and I doubt they're calling them that for the hell of it. But...one thing confuses me. There are space marines that do appear to have aged somehow because if you played SM, Sedonus looked like the equivalent of a 60 year old human man. He sure as hell wasn't recruited by the chapter when he was frakkin 50 so it doesn't make much sense. I understand the designer wanted to give Sedonus a wise look to him but it clashes with everything. He's not the only one tho, Iacton Qruze (a friend of Loken) was described as having looked older with white hair.
Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.
And besides, Loken didn’t explain how they were immortal. He was merely saying that for all he knew they could possibly be immortal. Captain or not, to me Loken seems to be entirely ignorant on the matter of a space marine’s lifespan.
Ashiraya wrote: Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.
What Loken explained is that with their technology, nobody could actually tell whether or not the Astartes were aging at all. That is very different from being flat out told that they are immortal.
Redcruisair wrote: Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.
There was at least some semblance of a reason to keep daemons secret.
Keeping SM lifespan secret from high-ranking SM has no rational reason.
Mind you, it's possible for them to age - it does not have to mean they die from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Continuing on the logic of Space Marines, it is often mindlessly repeated that 'If Space Marines were too large, they could not efficiently fight in their environment.'
This fails to take into account the sci-fi nature of the setting. In Halo, the Sangheili average at ~8', and they have zero issue whatsoever even in human environments.
With the gothic, monumental design of 40K structures and spaceships, even the largest of Space Marine-sources would not give them any real issues operating where they are supposed to.
On the subject of canon, it's worth remembering that for 40k. There is no canon.
Everything you've been told is a lie.
Take and pick what you want, however you want, it's all in the name of making and writing epic stories and, most importantly of all, selling more plastic toys.
1) Without their power armors, their average strength is comparable about 20% greater than that of the strongest none augmented human. With their power armour, it's about 50%. They are very fast when it comes to hand eye coordination and reflex, but this is mostly due to their training not their physiology. Only the best human can keep up with them in that field. They can run around 40 kilometers per hour on sprint and can sustain intense physical effort for at least ten times longer than a non-augmented human. Their heavy frame and fused rib-cage makes them less flexible than the average human, but doesn't cripple them that much. They would score «low» on standard flexibility test.
2) Their average size out of their armour is about 7 feet tall and they weight around 400 pounds. Their bones are about has tough has iron and they do possess impressive capacity well described by their augmented organs. They have near perfect night vision and can see further than human. They would score around 14/10 on vision test. Their earing is comparable to that of a cat and it's about has hard to daze them. They can breathe underwater and support pressure up to fifty times that of Earth without suffering massive damage or death (about 500 meters below sea level). They form scar tissues in three minutes or less. Their acid spit reacts to air in about five second and burns like battery acid.
3) Their pain sensitivity is rather normal, but their resistance threshold is very high (higher than that of most human comparatively speaking). They heal four times faster than human on average and can regenerate nervous tissue and even regrow lost fingers or toes with time. They are immune to most human disease and don't have their own even if it's theorical possible. They can resist most poison, but they can still feel minor symptoms like pain, swellings, light fevers, etc. Hemotoxic venom are more dangerous to them then neurotoxic ones unlike human. They can live for centuries if not millennia, but geneseed quality, origin can influence that greatly. Space Marines are sterilised, but if they were not, would be incapable of reproducing with a human female due to genetic differences.
4) They need frequent medical check-up to prevent mutation, hormonal disbalancement and erratic behaviors. They need extremely high caloric diets, but can survive several weeks without food by consuming their muscle mass. They need carefully balanced diets to remain in top condition, but can survive on almost anything edible. Space Marines mental health is naturally fragile, due to their anatomy and are prone to bouts of rage, melancholia, hysteria, dementia, obsessions or anti-social behaviors without good medical and psychological care. Their unnatural resistence to fear is the only exception. Their training forges them in stern and resilient combattant, but they must fight against their natural weakness all the time.
2nd: weapons and armours
1) Space Marines Power Armour are about half the weight of the Space Marine himself and offer perfect protection against low to medium caliber projectile weapons (stub riffles to heavy stubber), low power laser weapons (lasguns), shrapnel (frag grenade), small explosive devices (homemade explosives). The plates can withstand those weapons for extand period of time with very little damage. The joints can still be damaged (which can lead to injuries or death), but more than one shot may be necessary. It provides acceptable protection against bolt weapons and light canon shells, but cannot withstand them for long period without taking massive damage. The joints are vulnerable to these weapons and offer little protection. Most «modern» close combat weapons (chain weapons and mono-edge weapons) can scar the plates but only repeated blows with an individual of tremendous strength and good technic could pierce the plates. Joins are vulnerable to such weapons and offer little protection against a well-placed blow, but can protect from minor cuts. Shocking close combat weapons (like arbites baton or navy swords) have no special effect on power armors. They offer no significant protection against melta or plasma weapons and neither against high thermal charge of las weapons like hot-shot lasguns or lascanon. Only the most powerful flamers and an exposition to it for more than five second can damage the armour and its wearer. The armor improves the strength of the Space Marines and doesn't slow down his movement or reduce his endurance thanks to the Black Carapace interface, but it does slow a bit their running speed due to the configuration of their boots. The armour recycle dejections to provide water to the wearer of the armour and can be autonomous for periods of up to three months before they need to recharge. The helmet provide tactical information, communication device, different types of vision and an interface with the machine spirit for communion and status reports.
2) The bolter is a standard weapon design to be used has a light weapon that doesn't require a stock to handle recoil. It, shoots armour piercing explosive device that act much like a small missile. Space Marines bolters are larger than human ones by about 20% (just like their close combat weapon) due to a heavier frame that can withstand a rougher use (like smashing people in close combat with it) and a larger grip for the unusually large hands of the Space marines, but are otherwise identical when it comes to destructive power and magasine capacity. All bolter have three firing mods (single shot, short burst and full auto). They are very precise weapons, but need a lot of maintenance and are prone to jamming, especially in full auto. A single bolt can explode a body completly if the bolt pierce the target normaly and hit it close to the torso or belly. It usually causes death with a single shot on creature the size of human (shot in the hands or feet can lead to dismemberment, but some victims have survived it), but have proven to be incapable to stop an ork boyz with a single shot on several occasions.
3rd Space Marines training
1) Space Marines are recruited on various worlds by experimented members of their Chapter from boys between the ages of 7 to 13 (13 has been descibed has the prime age for implantation of the geneseed). They recruit the most healthy and promising amongst them by subjecting them to a battery of physical, mental and psychological test that can be particularly traumatising and deadly. Those who past will be implanted with the geneseed paired with extensive session of indoctrination using various technics, from hypnosis trance, to mind-numbing exercises. Those who survive may join the ranks of the scouts. Before joining a scout squad, the young Space Marine, will pass through another series of brutal test to make sure of its quality and he will be evaluated by scout masters who will then choose their next pupils. Scout masters are veteran marines with decades if not century of experience who dedicate themselves to training new Space Marines. They are exceptional teachers and never hesitate to place their charge in middle of the fight to test their skills. Scout training time may vary a lot but usually last a decade. Space Marines are amongst if not the most heavily trained combatant in the Imperium.
2) Space Marines training is made to shape them in a versatile fighting machine that uses his wits more than its brawn. They master various style of combat, weapons and tactics and are always ready to make decision by themselves should things go wrong. Martial pride, honor, duty and loyalty to the Chapters and your brothers are the most exalted values, making them exceptionally brave almost to the point of fearlessness due to their physiology, if not sometimes risk taking, stubborn of vainglorious. Chapter tradition varies a lot, but most of them fit in that categorie.
4th Space Marine organisation
1) Space Marines operate in tribal like organisation called Chapters that number around a 1000 active Space Marines outside ship, craft and tank crew has well has scouts. Surrounding those 1000 or so Space Marines are Chapter serfs who can follow them into battle if needed, but usually provide logistical support. Serfs are well trained and equipped soldiers usually drawn from failed recruits who still did well. They usually outnumber their Space Marine masters a 100 to one. All Chapter control a small fleet of war ships capable of transporting them and fight deep space battle efficiently. Most Chapter will also hold a planet they use has fortress, recruitment and training ground. They have full control of their planet and need to pay no respect to any other imperial organisation beside a gene tithe. They are completely autonomous when it comes to their maintenance and deployment. Chapters are restricted in their numbers to prevent them from overpowering their Imperial Masters though some very rare chapter break those rule (usually with bad consequences for them).
2) Space Marines are used to crush rebellion in their early fires, fight off pirates and marauding bands and watch the Imperium «borders» for xenos invaders. They also serve at the tip of any major conflict has elite commandos, heavy infantry or guards for important officers. Most of the times, Space Marines deploy in battle groups or companies. Companies are numbering in around a 100 fighting man with additional tanks and air support if needed while battle groups can be larger and draw of more than one company. They do operate alone on regular occasion usually has first response units. Their most common tactics is to strike at the enemy command structure and leadership after bombarding from orbit their fortifications and other strategical assets. A single company can force a entire planet to surrender simply by destroying its major city from orbit and conducting drop pod assaults on their key palace or fortification to kill their leaders. Most worlds surrender after a few weeks of this treatment or reinforcements are on their way to make them compliant. The Imperium doesn't occupy territory. It only ask for pledge of allegiance and tithe. They do not seek to fully control a planet socio-economical structure like many empires do.
Conclusion?
Space Marine are amongst the best individual combatant in the galaxy, wear impressive weapons and armour, cost almost nothing to the Imperium in term of infrastructure, production and maintenance cost are always ready to fight and can react and deploy to fight any enemy much faster than any other imperial military forces. They also are the most versatile. They possess enough ships to fight in the void and enough man power to pose a threat to enemy ground force. Of course their small numbers makes them incapable of causing massive damage by themselves, but it's a bit the point considering the damage they caused last time they did. Any comments on my descriptive?
I disagree with a lot of your stats, but then, I go with the 9' calc. So this all is just how I see it.
I calculated avg. Marine weight to 744 pounds by running square-cube law on an elite strongman competitor. Then I added 220ish pounds to represent the fact that they are supposed to have super-dense bones and muscles and so on.
End result is 964 lb, or about 1300-1400 ish in armour and with full equipment.
Marine high-speed feats are consistent enough to estimate ~75 kph sprint, and ~50 kph long-distance running. They are easily capable of pushing, lifting and carrying several tons if need be, though it may encumber them.
Even without armour their skin and bones are tough enough to resist most small arms fire and once you factor in armour small arms end up becoming quite unviable weapons on their own. Thanks to the ceramic (and thus extremely heat-resistant by definition) nature of Power Armour, Space Marines are surprisingly resistant against melta and plasma weapons, although they certainly hurt. Their bones are tough, but the flexibility in between them is still good, so they can do some contortion if needed (although armour stops that, even if they needed it.)
PA is comparable to MBT plating versus small arms fire, and can resist everything up to and including autocannon rounds very well. Their armour resists their own weapons, so SM versus CSM fights can take quite some time as they focus on defense and try to hit each other's soft armour. Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots and scythe down vast numbers of unarmoured foes on full auto, although Orks are often hardy enough to survive the massive tissue damage caused by a hit and fight on despite the grotesque resulting wound.
Against tanks, even without special weapons, Space Marines have many options. If nothing else, they can rip up the side of a tank (like tearing off a turret) and throw in a frag grenade. Obviously melee is risky so they have kraks which are also effective, and of course with some good aim even the normal bolter can do quite some damage.
Basically, this.
Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
Your vision of the Space Marines seems to me like a justification of the some the worst elements about marines fiction (commonly refered has movie marines) which are filled with literary language and exagerations for the sake of a good novel. It's like in «La Chanson de Roland» or Ered and Enid (two piece of medieval litterature). They describe the protagonists, one of them who's an actual historical figure. has cutting throught the ranks of the ennemy like weat, killing three men with each stroke of their swords until they got blood up to their knees. That's of course literary language to describ them has incredible warriors, not a litteral account of their deeds because you and I can clearly see it makes no sense. I think it's the same thing with a Space Marine. Since GW fluff is designed to be taken has propaganda, Space Marines powers are therefore exagerated. The «real ones» would be less powerful, but still capable of superhuman feets. Thus my description. I could also present piece of fiction like the attack of the Khorn berzerkers in Ghostmaker to present you about 20 veteran Chaos Marines killed by guardsmen without to much casualty on their side despite the fact that the Marines were ambushing them has a vision of Space Marines completly opposite to yours and it would be just has reliable.
In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.
Edit: Honestly, the very point of 40K fluff is that you can cherrypick what you like. Telling others that their opinion is wrong is not going to work any better in a discussion here than it would in a discussion between two fans of different football teams!
Your vision of the Space Marines seems to me like a justification of the some the worst elements about marines fiction (commonly refered has movie marines) which are filled with literary language and exagerations for the sake of a good novel. It's like in «La Chanson de Roland» or Ered and Enid (two piece of medieval litterature). They describe the protagonists, one of them who's an actual historical figure. has cutting throught the ranks of the ennemy like weat, killing three men with each stroke of their swords until they got blood up to their knees. That's of course literary language to describ them has incredible warriors, not a litteral account of their deeds because you and I can clearly see it makes no sense. I think it's the same thing with a Space Marine. Since GW fluff is designed to be taken has propaganda, Space Marines powers are therefore exagerated. The «real ones» would be less powerful, but still capable of superhuman feets. Thus my description. I could also present piece of fiction like the attack of the Khorn berzerkers in Ghostmaker to present you about 20 veteran Chaos Marines killed by guardsmen without to much casualty on their side despite the fact that the Marines were ambushing them has a vision of Space Marines completly opposite to yours and it would be just has reliable.
In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.
Don't write walls of text. Use a linebreak somewhere please
Since GW fluff is designed to be taken as propaganda
Thats not true. GW fluff should be seen as possible propaganda. It may or may not be true. That is an important distinction. There is no need to exaggerate many feats that marines do.
Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them?
Again, not true at all. Sororites Power Armor is only identical in terms of the Ceramite plating. But there is much more to it than that. Space Marine Power Armor contains many more life support, medical, and other tertiary systems. Then you have the marine himself who is far far more sturdy than a lowly human.
A sister's armor might withstand an impact, but the kinetic force was still more than enough to cause fatal internal damage. Damage a marine would have easily withstood due to his superior body. You don't need to penetrate armor to kill whats inside, you only need to transfer energy into the organs to cause internal bleeding and hydrostatic shock.
If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar function, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place?
The same way we can make modern tank armor capable of taking hits from missiles and 120mm tank rounds.
If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do?
This doesn't even make sense, like much of your post. Please explain a little clearer.
Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that. That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.
@Grey Templar
Well our tank plating is made of steel. They explode rather easily when shot by anti-tank weapons like rocket launcher or specilised tank ammunition. Missiles and 120mm tank round have the bad habit of destroying tanks rather easily they were made for that after all. Steel can be molded a a temperature of around 400 degree celcius and bend rather easily. Let see what a material like ceramite would be like if it was has tough than Ashiraya would imagine it.
Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.
A temperature so high is capable of melting your atoms and make new elements. There would be nothing left of you. If such a material is possible, how would you produce it? Steel plates are heated and molted into shapes, such a material would be impossible to forge even in the heart of a star.
If it can also withstand canon shells that can pulverise concrete and steal and still protect it's wearer, it's also incredibly hard so you can't just hammer it in the shape you want. I can't imagine a factorie capable of producing any of these armours let alone repair them.
Has for the gun issue, melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine are all more powerfull than Space Marines bolters according to the fluff. How strong would they need to be if a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?
epronovost wrote: Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that.
There's a difference between 'My opinion is different, I think X' and 'your opinion is stupid'.
That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.
Loaded premise. You're assuming that your stance is the consistent, logical and reasonable one, and that anything else isn't. NOTHING is consistent in 40k, bar a few numbers (like there being a million marines, a million imperial worlds and a thousand chapters).
Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.
The thing is, if we are to believe that a plasma bolt is indeed as hot as the heart of a star, then a bolt of its size is enough to wipe out the entire battlefield. Is that consistent, logical, and reasonable?
epronovost wrote: a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?
You are attributing claims to me that I have not made.
It still is a composite metal made mostly of steel because of it's rusting patterns. But you are right on that point. It's not steel plate the way I have described it. Thanks for the info BTW. Now is that composite layer of metal and ceramic resistent to nuclear fire or massive explosion? Not that much and certainly not in a personnal armour form. Tanks are tougher than Marines, melta guns and plasma guns destroy tanks reliably and fast. So they logically are overkill against marines. That's the core of my argument.
@Ashiraya
My point wasn't to insult you, but present why I think you fail at your own objective of consistancy and logic. I don't think my hypothesis is the only possible one, I simply think it's better than yours. I could well be wrong and you right, but has of now, I don't think you made any convincing point to demonstrate how my hypothesis is inferior to yours.
I will still be interested in what you have to say further of course. I will stress that again, we are having a little debate on a fictionnal universe creature. I don't mean to disrespect you in any way and all my attacks are directed at your arguments and not you personnaly. I am very sorry if you felt personnaly attacked by my rebutal.
To your question about plasma weapons, I would reply that they could indeed kill more than one person with a single plasma shot (like a bullet passing though a lot of target), but they loose energy quickly and dissipate quickly. Their range is about 300 to 400 meters before they dissipate (consistent with the threat range of am assault rifle), but faster if they hit something consistent like a big target. I would see it conceivable for a Marine to survive a plasma shot if he was far enough. They do are the most deadly personnal weapon fluff wise I think.
So here are my questions to you:
PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?
How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?
How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall?
How can they fight in buildings design for human?
How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?
What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?
Psienesis wrote: We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.
Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day
What would be the point in giving you such an example if you’re just going to ignore it? I remember giving you a distinct example of an aged space marine, which you conveniently ignored in favor of that immortality fantasy of yours.
So what’s the point in arguing this with you?
That Space Marine wasn't a Space Marine, he was just a really old Rune Priest who was too old to become a Space Marine and got rejuvenation treatments just like Luther did
Ashiraya wrote: Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.
Not to mention humans are constantly referred to as "mortals" by space marines and I doubt they're calling them that for the hell of it. But...one thing confuses me. There are space marines that do appear to have aged somehow because if you played SM, Sedonus looked like the equivalent of a 60 year old human man. He sure as hell wasn't recruited by the chapter when he was frakkin 50 so it doesn't make much sense. I understand the designer wanted to give Sedonus a wise look to him but it clashes with everything. He's not the only one tho, Iacton Qruze (a friend of Loken) was described as having looked older with white hair.
These are mostly design oversights or just plain idiocy, but it would make sense for Space Marines to have white hair due to stress, as stress causes white hair. Also, lined, craggy faces that look old would be the result of fighting in hundreds and/or thousands of different climates and environments which would "weather" the face
Now that we've wondered off blabbering about SM feats and how exaggerated they seem, let's not forget that primarchs contain the MOST illogical and exaggerated feats but it all seems justifiably logical because they are ridiculous godly space magical beastmen.
In my honest opinion, a SM averages 7'6 to 8'2 in height and 500 to 800lbs, without armour of course.
Redcruisair wrote: Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.
And besides, Loken didn’t explain how they were immortal. He was merely saying that for all he knew they could possibly be immortal. Captain or not, to me Loken seems to be entirely ignorant on the matter of a space marine’s lifespan.
They acknowledged the existence of Warp entities, they just didn't assign them supernatural titles, and kept them with generic names that had no religious significance.
Redcruisair wrote: Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.
There was at least some semblance of a reason to keep daemons secret.
Keeping SM lifespan secret from high-ranking SM has no rational reason.
Mind you, it's possible for them to age - it does not have to mean they die from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Continuing on the logic of Space Marines, it is often mindlessly repeated that 'If Space Marines were too large, they could not efficiently fight in their environment.'
This fails to take into account the sci-fi nature of the setting. In Halo, the Sangheili average at ~8', and they have zero issue whatsoever even in human environments.
With the gothic, monumental design of 40K structures and spaceships, even the largest of Space Marine-sources would not give them any real issues operating where they are supposed to.
No, but it would restrict them when fighting aliens that are smaller than humans, like the Tau
They can live for centuries if not millennia, but geneseed quality, origin can influence that greatly. Space Marines are sterilised, but if they were not, would be incapable of reproducing with a human female due to genetic differences.
Arguable, as we have no examples of Space Marines attempting to mate with humans, and no evidence to support the fact that Space Marine semen would be genetically different from ordinary human semen, as there would be no martial reasons to change the semen of an Astartes
4) They need frequent medical check-up to prevent mutation, hormonal disbalancement and erratic behaviors. They need extremely high caloric diets, but can survive weeks without food by consuming their muscle mass. They need carefully balanced diets to remain in top condition, but can survive on almost anything edible. Space Marines mental health is naturally fragile, due to their anatomy and are prone to bouts of rage, melancholia, hysteria, dementia, obsessions or anti-social behaviors without good medical and psychological care.
Ordinary humans can survive for up to 3 months without food, and we have examples of Space Marines surviving years without it. Space Marine mental health is actually fairly stable due to the obscenely high discipline and self control, which allow them to conquer something like hysteria (fear-induced, which is a chemical reaction which is lessened in Space Marines), dementia (dementia occurs due to the breakdown of the cerebral cortex, which Space Marines are immune to due to regenerating brain cells [only logical conclusion for how Space Marines don't have the usual neural symptoms of age]). Rage, meloncholia, obsession, etc. are all natural psychological occurences that are quite common in normal humans, and rage and obsession would (most probably) be encouraged in your standard Space Marines in order to maximize battlefield effectiveness.
They offer no significant protection against melta or plasma weapons and neither against high thermal charge of las weapons like hot-shot lasguns or lascanon. Only the most powerful flamers and an exposition to it for more than five second can damage the armour and its wearer. Space Marines armour
1.) We have examples of Space Marines being splashed with burning Promethium and not even feeling mild discomfort, so Power Armour obviously protects against heat, though such weapons as melta weapons. Quote from Fulgrim below.
2) The bolter is a standard weapon design to be used has a light weapon that doesn't require a stock to handle recoil. It, shoots armour piercing explosive device that act much like a small missile. Space Marines bolters are larger than human ones by about 20% (just like their close combat weapon) due to a heavier frame that can withstand a rougher use (like smashing people in close combat with it) and a larger grip for the unusually large hands of the Space marines, but are otherwise identical when it comes to destructive power and magasine capacity. All bolter have three firing mods (single shot, short burst and full auto). They are very precise weapons, but need a lot of maintenance and are prone to jamming, especially in full auto. A single bolt can section a limb or explode an organ usually causes death on creature the size of human, but have proven to be incapable to stop an ork boyz with a single shot on several occasions.
A few things here:
1.) While I agree here, the only way that the Bolter would be both larger and identical in magazine size is if the rounds were larger and therefore more powerful. Logic would dictate that the magazines would be larger
2.) I have never once heard of a Bolter EVER jamming, you care to back this up with a quote? Seeing as how Bolts are self-propelled and thus have barely any charge in their casing, there wouldn't be much need for any more than minimal maintenance
3.) Full auto and short burst are kind of the same thing, it's just with burst you only pull the trigger once, and have however many Bolts come out from that squeeze instead of holding down the trigger
3rd Space Marines training
1) Space Marines are recruited on various worlds by experimented members of their Chapter from boys between the ages of 7 to 13
Space Marines are pubescent humans, which can mean anywhere from 7 to 17, so long as the subject is under the process of puberty, then the subject can be turned into a Space Marine. This is actually a large part of the reason that a lot of the Space Marine recruits die during the implantation process, as everybody hits puberty at different times, and thus one 12 year old might not even be at the starting stages of puberty while a 10 year old may already have a large amount of armpit hair.
2) Space Marines training is made to shape them in a versatile fighting machine that uses his wits more than its brawn. They master various style of combat, weapons and tactics and are always ready to make decision by themselves should things go wrong. Martial pride, honor, duty and loyalty to the Chapters and your brothers are the most exalted values, making them exceptionally brave almost to the point of fearlessness due to their physiology, if not sometimes risk taking, stubborn of vainglorious.
This really just varies according to the Chapter Cult and Chapter teachings. You can have Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, who just want to get into the thick of it and emphasize melee combat an strength, and you can have Chapters like the Blood Ravens who are scholarly and value both intelligence and strength. You can have Chapters like the Ultramarines who are soldiers and on their spare time practice soldiering, while you also have Chapters like the Blood Angels who are religious warriors and on their spare time practice art, smithing, scholarly persuits, etc.
1) Space Marines operate in tribal like organisation called Chapters that number around a 1000 active Space Marines outside ship, craft and tank crew has well has scouts.
One explanation for tank crew and flight crew is that Space Marines are drawn from the existing 100 squads, which explains why we have squads numbering as few as 5 Marines when the standard is 10
Most of the times, Space Marines deploy in battle groups or companies. Companies are numbering in around a 100 fighting man with additional tanks and air support if needed while battle groups can be larger and draw of more than one company. They do operate alone on regular occasion usually has first response units. Their most common tactics is to strike at the enemy command structure and leadership after bombarding from orbit their fortifications and other strategical assets. A single company can force a entire planet to surrender simply by destroying its major city from orbit and conducting drop pod assaults on their key palace or fortification to kill their leaders. Most worlds surrender after a few weeks of this treatment or reinforcements are on their way to make them compliant. The Imperium doesn't occupy territory. It only ask for pledge of allegiance and tithe. They do not seek to fully control a planet socio-economical structure like many empires do.
While I do agree on Space Marine tactics and your description of Strike Forces (official name for your battle groups, used by GW and BL), not all Space Marines operate in this manner. Minotaurs, for instance, may just invade a few major cities and slaughter the populace as a show of force; sweeping aside any resistance like wheat before a scythe.
As far as Imperial occupation, the Imperium does ensure that there is no trace of "heresy" (a relative term, it's meaning varies from Inquisitor to Inquisitor, Space Marine to Space Marine, etc.), and there will usually be an Imperial-trained PDF and Guard regiments, tithes, etc. will also be drawn from this planet.
Of course their small numbers makes them incapable of causing massive damage by themselves, but it's a bit the point considering the damage they caused last time they did. Any comments on my descriptive?
Not even close. even one thousand Space Marines is enough to leave a trail of destruction spanning dozens and/or hundreds of worlds if the proper response is not mustered to stop them. There is a reason that the Ordo Hereticus (][) pays so much attention to Space Marines. As a side not, I just found out a new way to draw boobs using a keyboard when I was typing the Inquisition symbol -][- with parentheses around it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote: Or attack field post and dugouts that are very cramped
Space Marines would likely have the most trouble dealing with bunkers and tunneling defenders like the Viet Cong
dusara217 wrote: That Space Marine wasn't a Space Marine, he was just a really old Rune Priest who was too old to become a Space Marine and got rejuvenation treatments just like Luther did
I take it you think Longfang is one of Russ old friends who were too old to become a space marines and instead he got the rejuvenation treatment? Well he’s not. Longfang is from Terra, and not only that, Hawser flat out calls him one of the Astartes of the Emperor.
“I don’t remember Terra,” he said.
“What?”
“I don’t remember it. I’m oldest of all, and I don’t remember it. I was made there, one of the last few that was, and I remind all the brothers of our proud link to the birth-sphere. But the truth is, I remember very little. Dark barrack fortresses, exercise camps, fight-zones, off-world expeditions. That’s all. I don’t remember Terra."
So that settles that debacle. Space marines do experience deterioration in their bones and muscles, like an ageing human.
Even without armour their skin and bones are tough enough to resist most small arms fire and once you factor in armour small arms end up becoming quite unviable weapons on their own. Thanks to the ceramic (and thus extremely heat-resistant by definition) nature of Power Armour, Space Marines are surprisingly resistant against melta and plasma weapons, although they certainly hurt. Their bones are tough, but the flexibility in between them is still good, so they can do some contortion if needed (although armour stops that, even if they needed it.)
Ceramite is actually a metal alloy, not a ceramic material. This is a common misconception that I actually once believed until reading a few books that had descriptions of Power Armour in them that actually made sense. Ceramic material would crack and shatter if struck, and thus would make an unviable material for armour, whilst a metal alloy would merely dent, unless ridiculously hard.
PA is comparable to MBT plating versus small arms fire, and can resist everything up to and including autocannon rounds very well. Their armour resists their own weapons, so SM versus CSM fights can take quite some time as they focus on defense and try to hit each other's soft armour. Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots and scythe down vast numbers of unarmoured foes on full auto, although Orks are often hardy enough to survive the massive tissue damage caused by a hit and fight on despite the grotesque resulting wound.
Personally, I prefer to rationalize the SoB having Bolters of the same strength as SM Bolters by saying that Bolts are the actual weapon (self propulsion and all that) and a Bolter being larger basically just gives it a larger magazine. Bolts would, however, turn any human-sized target composed of unarmoured organic material into bloody mist, due to exploding inside of the target with the strength of a 32 MM Grenade.
Basically, this.
Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
I'd say that's a bit different from your standard Space Marines, as we don't know if those CSM had patronage from the Dark Gods, and had any special perks (increased speed, toughness, strength, etc. or magic powers or Daemon weapons or or or etc.)
dusara217 wrote: That Space Marine wasn't a Space Marine, he was just a really old Rune Priest who was too old to become a Space Marine and got rejuvenation treatments just like Luther did
I take it you think Longfang is one of Russ old friends who were too old to become a space marines and instead he got the rejuvenation treatment? Well he’s not. Longfang is from Terra, and not only that, Hawser flat out calls him one of the Astartes of the Emperor.
“I don’t remember Terra,” he said.
“What?”
“I don’t remember it. I’m oldest of all, and I don’t remember it. I was made there, one of the last few that was, and I remind all the brothers of our proud link to the birth-sphere. But the truth is, I remember very little. Dark barrack fortresses, exercise camps, fight-zones, off-world expeditions. That’s all. I don’t remember Terra."
So that settles that debacle. Space marines do experience deterioration in their bones and muscles, like an ageing human.
A perfectly viable example of Astartes suffering from age, then. However, I do have an issue with it: we have no guarentee that the Rune Priest wasn't suffering from the effects of battlefield damage to his joints. If playing American football utterly destroys an ordinary human's knees after just ten years, imagine what fighting in mortal combat, taking tank explosions, and falling outta the sky (jump packs) must do to 'em, even to a Space Marine, after 200 years.
There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.
So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.
I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.
I agree as well, even if there is circumstantial evidence that Space Marines can feel the effects of age. I'm of the opinion that Longfang was suffering from a battlefield damage to his joints that didn't heal. Of course, Longfang is still a perfectly viable example of Space Marines suffering from old age, though we have no guarentee that he was actually suffering from age.
Marines have not been sterilized, at least not deliberately. Nor are they castrated as that would be counter productive.
Marines are likely sterile due to all the chemicals and genetic manipulation, but thats more of a side effect and not a deliberate action.
As for food, while marines would need very high calorie diets, them also being able to go for long periods of time without food is also possible. Remember we have genetic manipulation, and altered adipose tissue and other forms of energy storage could easily account for longer survival times despite needing lots of calories. Being able to enter suspended animation also helps too. Or course a marine wouldn't be able to maintain high activity and go without food for long periods of time, but thats ok.
Marines would likely have even greater fat deposits around their internal organs to increase the cushioning it provides, and it doubles as energy storage. Their skin also likely retains a layer of subcutaneous fat that normally disappears with male adolescence.
And again, there is a difference between ideal and not-ideal situations. Ideally, a marine is going to have constant medical checkups and proper food. When he is deployed, its not always ideal. But he can scrape by due to his enhanced physical nature.
In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.
I have a few problems with this:
1.) Ashiraya said that it offers SOME protection against Melta and Plasma, just as Spartan armor (Halo) provides SOME protection against fuel rod cannons. A direct hit is gonna absolutely destroy a Space Marine, as evidenced in numerous novels, while a near miss might do only minor damage.
2.) Space Marines have been quoted to run far faster than Ashiraya said, and Rhinos would still be necessary as they can maintain a stable, fast speed, navigate rough terrain without damage, and provide a good amount of protection against small arms fire and weaker large arms fire.
3.) The real power from Bolters comes from the fact that they detonate. They're .75 calbre rounds (enough to tear a human limb from limb as it is), but they are also designed to explode INSIDE of the target. This would provide both a.) utter massacre of lightly armoured human-sized combatanats (rebels, Tau, etc.) and b.) absolutely shock 'n awe. I mean, just imagine having you and four dozen other rebels surrounding a Space Marine squad on all sides, and then suddenly all of your buddies just start exploding from the inside as Bolter fire penetrates their flak armour and detonates inside of their chests. Utterly terrifying.
Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that. That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.
Well our tank plating is made of steel. They explode rather easily when shot by anti-tank weapons like rocket launcher or specilised tank ammunition. Missiles and 120mm tank round have the bad habit of destroying tanks rather easily they were made for that after all. Steel can be molded a a temperature of around 400 degree celcius and bend rather easily. Let see what a material like ceramite would be like if it was has tough than Ashiraya would imagine it.
Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.
A temperature so high is capable of melting your atoms and make new elements. There would be nothing left of you. If such a material is possible, how would you produce it? Steel plates are heated and molted into shapes, such a material would be impossible to forge even in the heart of a star.
If it can also withstand canon shells that can pulverise concrete and steal and still protect it's wearer, it's also incredibly hard so you can't just hammer it in the shape you want. I can't imagine a factorie capable of producing any of these armours let alone repair them.
Has for the gun issue, melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine are all more powerfull than Space Marines bolters according to the fluff. How strong would they need to be if a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?
Bolts can't blow up a tank unless you get a lucky shot through the muzzel of the tank rifle and also get lucky enough for there to be a round on the other end for the Bolt to hit. However, Bolts can cause damage to a tank, knock out some surface weapons like Storm Bolters, etc. Otherwise I agree with what you said about anti-tank weapons.
PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?
How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?
How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall?
How can they fight in buildings design for human?
How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?
What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?
1.) Bolts are obscenely large (.75 caliber, to be precise), larger than .50 caliber weapons (which can actually make a person explode if a direct torso shot is achieved), which, by itself, would be enough to utterly pulverize any infantry. However, this original stopping power is compounded by the fact that Bolts are EXPLOSIVES hence the term "explosive Bolt". These Bolts are designed to penetrate a target, then detonate inside of them.
2.) Space Marine size is largely determined to how large they were before being turned into Space Marines. This is why you will have 2.5 Meter Marines in one book, then 4 meter marines IN THE SAME BOOK. However, even if you don't believe that, Tau and humans would build ships and structures several feet taller than themselves. For instance, a one-story building, ceiling-to-floor, is ten feet tall; at least four feet taller than your average human being.
3.) Propaganda, and/or luck combined with superior numbers and/or firepower
4.) You need to hit them with a wound to severe for their blood to clot, so probably a wound both quite long and quite deep. Otherwise, a head shot with a sufficiently powerful weapon will do (though low caliber firearms will be incapable of penetrating the skull), or crippling both hearts. You could also just keep shooting them until they die
PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?
Plasma guns turn men into goo.
Melta guns turn men into goo.
Lascannons turn men into goo.
Replace 'goo' with 'ashes' after taste. I mean, what'd you expect?
How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?
Because industrial cutting lasers and similar are serious things? Cutting lasers are displayed as similar in lethality to lascannons in both HH and RT (although in practice they're inefficient beyond melee range and incredibly unwieldy even there), and those are the man-portable ones.
How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall? How can they fight in buildings design for human?
They crouch to get through some doorways if needed? They were not exactly designed with Tau in mind anyway.
I am still of the opinion that you're not supposed to send in your giant supersoldiers into cramped spaces, whether they are 7' or 9', as they are going to have lots of trouble maneuvring and fitting through doorways and hatches either way with that huge-ass armour of theirs. Besides, don't you have Scions if you absolutely have to dig out that Tau out of his rabbit-hole?
How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?
How do you explain the instances where a Space Marine runs at 180 times the speed of sound? We can trade citations all day and it won't get us anywhere.
What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?
The whole point of investing fethloads of resources and time into making them as tough as possible and equipping them with as tough armour as possible is to prevent the enemy from reliably and efficiently killing them. They are a giant dagger in the face of the 'everyone dies to X all the same ' mentality. Yes, they die to bigger guns all the same, but you have to catch them exposed first. I am not sure of where you'd place the breakpoint, but dig out a Plasma Blastgun if it's important.
You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?
Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun. Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection and a single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)? I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?
Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition. The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets. We can expect most corridor to be about has big with service tunels around hangar bays much much larger and some much smaller. A 7 feet tall marine would be a bit tight on such a ship, but still fonctionnal. A 9 foot marine like yours could find himself crouched all the time and incapable of fighting in close combat efficiently unless he uses a spear or a short sword and even then it's not great. He would also be much slower.
I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.
There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.
So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.
I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.
Or, maybe it's so common that it isn't worth mentioning. I mean, it isn't like 40K fluff is predisposed to moments of introspection and self-realization.
There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.
So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.
I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.
Or, maybe it's so common that it isn't worth mentioning. I mean, it isn't like 40K fluff is predisposed to moments of introspection and self-realization.
The fact that marines are often referred to as being immortal says that it doesn't happen. And if it were common, we would actually hear about it somewhere. "Brother Captain Joe led the 3rd company for many centuries and vanquished many foes, he was a true hero. He died on M38.567.148 peacefully in his sleep."
You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?
Actually I did not, but you failed to read what I stated, and then re-stated, and then re-re-stated regarding Bolt Guns. In order to make you understand how powerful a .75 caliber bullet is, I refer you to these videos that show humans being hit by .50 cal weaponry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyjU7WKvO9c http://i.imgur.com/GDRyh4Z.gif?z=12
Now imagine that a %150 power, with explosive rounds. That's a bolt, it penetrates the target (which is why they aim for center of mass), then explode with the power of a 32MM Grenade. The target would get torn to pieces simply from the initial impact (which would shatter every bone in the body and likely rip off a few limbs), then has a small grenade detonated inside of them - hence the "bloody mist" (though bloody chunks of meat would be more accurate).
Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun. Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection and a single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)? I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?
Sure Power Armour is designed to resist extreme heat and extreme cold, so as to allow Astartes to fight in all kinds of environments during the Great Crusade. Modern Power Armour (logically) has retained this function and mostly just changed the tertiary systems and the shape of the Power Armour. Here's a quote from Fulgrim
He felt the heat on his armour, but it could do him no harm, though scads of burning fuel dribbled from the plates of his legs and arms. The roaring of the wind filled his sense as the gunship spun, cold air roaring through the stricken Stormbird and howling in his ears.
This is Solomon Demeter wearing standard MK III Power Armour somewhere near the 150th year of the Great Crusade or so, might have been MK IV, but I kinda doubt it.
Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition. The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets. We can expect most corridor to be about has big with service tunels around hangar bays much much larger and some much smaller. A 7 feet tall marine would be a bit tight on such a ship, but still fonctionnal. A 9 foot marine like yours could find himself crouched all the time and incapable of fighting in close combat efficiently unless he uses a spear or a short sword and even then it's not great. He would also be much slower.
Eh, not necessarily. You may note that modern United States Marine fight on the air, land, and sea (Primarily land). This, at one point, was their motto. Marines are just semi-elite soldiers capable of being mass produced. Although, early Marines were originally part of the country's navy and were basically just a ship's garrison of sorts. Also, they're called Marines because Space Marines sounds cool, or at least it did in the '80s, and 40k follows the Rule of Cool.
I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.
There really isn't, and Space Marine speed is honestly a matter largely composed of conjecture. However, what we do have are examples of Space Marines moving so fast that they either a.) were just blurs in the air or b.) seemed to teleport. By these examples, we can conclude that Astartes can move at least 45 MPH, but probably closer to 55 or 60. I'm 'murican, so I really don't feel like translating that into KPH, sorry. Gimme a minute to go quote hunting so I can provide specific examples.
Ok, I really don't want to waste the next two hours hunting for a quote on Space Marine speed, but I just found an entire thread of people agreeing with what I said about Space Marines, and I'm lazy, so here's the URL so you can be convinced of SM speed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/437912.page
To be fair, they really are referred to as immortal a lot of the time.
However... it's worth saying that the vast majority of the time, it's said by people who really don't know any better. A marine that lives for 2, 300 years. Compared to a guardsmen, whose lifespan will then be measured in weeks. Or a civilian who'll be lucky to make it to 30.
Honestly, Marines are fighting too much to suffer from old age anyways, and are functionally immortal since they never live long enough to find out one way or the other. IMHO, it is both possible and probable that the Emperor would want his superwarriors to be biologically immortal, but hey, that's just me thinking about the fact that there will constantly be galactic-scale threats (Orks, Chaos, etc.) that will continue to be super-powered, insanely difficult to kill foes that you will need great experience as well as great equipment and physiology to trump.
The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.
She realised she was getting ahead of herself and asked, 'Does that bother you, not getting old? Is there some part of you that wants to?'
'Why would I want to get old?' asked Loken...
'... I am powerful now, strong. Why would I want to change that?'
'I don't know. I thought that if you aged maybe you'd be able to, you know, retire one day. Once the Crusade is over I mean.'
'Over?'
I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.
Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.
I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.
Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.
As far as weapons like Pulse Rifles and Shuriken guns and all that, those are mostly energy weapons, and are thus superior to your standard firearm. Now, Pulse Rifles are basically a hybrid laser-plasma weapon, so clearly superior in regards to there being absolutely no means of shielding somebody from a direct hit. However, Pulse Rifles and the like would have absolutely zero splash damage, and thus wouldn't make good line weapons, but amazing precision sniper rifles, since you don't have to worry about things like bullet drop, wind speed, etc. and also have a weapon that is immune to any kind of armour but energy shields and conversion fields and the like. As far as Shuriken guns, those are just knife throwers that shoot at a rediculously fast speed. Shuriken Catapults would (most likely) be ideal for armour penetration (high speed + really sharp = AP) and would also be great for dealing with blobs of infantry and the like (high rate of fire + really sharp = 80 shurikens in two seconds that go through the target and hit the guy behind him). Each of these weapons and the ones similar to them are superior to Bolts in different respects, but inferior in others. For instance, what's going to be scarier, your best buddy suddenly exploding and covering you in his blood and chunks of bone and meat, or his face suddenly having a hole in it the size of a fist? Obviously the exploding buddy is going to have more a shock 'n awe effect, and stun you for a minute as the horror sinks in. On the same note, what's gonna be scarier, your commander suddenly being covered in tiny holes that punch straight through him and he dies, or him suddenly having his head explode? Obviously the exploding head is going to have a greater psychological effect. What's going to have a greater psychological effect, your best buddy suddenly exploding and his hand landing on your rifle, or your best buddy suddenly disintegrating? Obviously the exploding buddy. Now, Bolt pistols are ideal for dealing with single targets, due to low rate of fire and high firepower, but Bolters would be great for anti-infantry, as anybody hit is basically going to have is organs turned to jelly if he's armoured, or his body turn to a bloody, chunky mist as he explodes. Add to that rapid firing 30-round magazines, and you have the ultimate terror and anti-personnel weapon, that also does a hefty amount of damage to armour. Shurikens would probably be more ideal, however, for dealing with blobs, as they can fire eighty shurikens in the space a single second. These shurikens hit hard, and they are REALLY, REALLY sharp.
Now, let's compare the Bolt to the Melta weapon. Melta guns fire concentrated blasts of microwave radiation, so the effect would actually be quite similar to that of a Bolt (exploding people), if you want proof, google "puppy in the microwave". Meltas would make fantastic anti-infantry weapons, tbh, though they wouldn't be able to deal with larger squads due to the blast being akin to a laser of microwaves.
So, you see, every weapon was designed with a specific goal in mind. Bolts are devestating to just about any organic creature that has exposed flesh to be 'sploded in. Shurikens are devastating to any lightly armoured infantry, though it has more difficulty with Power Armour or better armour. Pulse Rifles are essentially the ultimate sniper rifles. Lasguns are cheap and effective weapons to be wielded by the expendables who need to be able to do some damage. Gauss Flayers are ideal for dealing with armoured targets or single targets, though a comparatively low rate of fire leaves it wanting in the infantry department.
I agree with your vision of the bolter, but I still have trouble thinking about the capacity of even better personnal weapons like pluse rifle or shuriken catapult or necron gauss flayer. It pushes the logic consistency in their field if you know what I mean.
Most people on the thread link you gave me seems to think that Space Marine run slower than a olympic sprinter. Which is even slower than what I would have given them. I would have given them about 30 miles per hour (45 km/h) if you prefer on sprint. At least it makes sense considering the top speed of the Rhino is 70 km/h according to BL.
The Shuriken Catapult isn't "better" than a bolter. Its different.
Its got a much shorter range and only slightly better chances against heavy armor given its pseudo-rending. The bolter is a general purpose weapon, the Shuriken Catapult is a very short range assault weapon.
The Pulse Rifle is, from a statline perspective, better given its better range and killing power. But that doesn't necessarily mean its better. It is probably way more expensive to manufacture due to its complicated technology.
That is why the Imperium uses the lasgun as its primary armament. Its cheap and has reasonable killing power. When you have to arm trillions and trillions of soldiers cost becomes a major concern. Sure, you could arm all your soldiers with plasma guns. But you'd only be able to arm a few billion of them. And trillions of guys with lasguns>a few billion with plasma guns.
The Space Marines are a "Fantasy Knights in SPAAAACE" thing. They don't really work if you actually try to look at them from any sort of realistic (with consideration for the setting) perspective.
We're talking about a force of a million, in a galaxy with around three hundred billion star systems. They not only have to defend Imperial worlds, but attack Xeno's worlds, defend space lanes, attack Xenos non-planetary targets, etc, with conflict on a galactic scale on multiple internal and external fronts a constant.
Given these facts, a million marines is far too few, by several orders of magnitude. That number is questionable even for a single well defended and industrially developed planet, there just aren't enough marines to cover all the ground they'd need to be in.
The classic response to this is that's what the IG are for, and that the SM's are just there for "surgical strikes", but time and again, the SM's are portrayed as undertaking massive campaigns without such support and engaging in frontal attacks, sieges, armored engagements, etc. Even then, not every war or battle can be won by surgical strike, nor are such even always possible.
Chapters in particular are even worse. A single bad warp jump could destroy an entire chapter. Losing half a dozen Thunderhawks to planetary defenses (which, when an opposing world may have tens of thousands of anti-aircraft installations and thousands of fighter craft, certainly does not seem at all impossible) would cripple a chapter's capabilities in a single stroke. Having a landing zone bracketed by enemy artillery and losing a company on the ground, which should by no means be impossible, would stop many Space Marine attacks in minutes. Replacement of Space Marines is very time intensive, and any sort of major casualties should force a chapter out of battle for years if not decades.
On top of that, they're all independent sovereign groups effectively, who fight where and when they want under largely nobody else's orders, and have been recorded as outright refusing certain calls for aid. They're availability would be extremely susoect. Not only that, but many go off pursuing their own agendas, many have turned reneged (half the original numbers, at least 5% of the post-heresy Chapters in full have gone renegade, and innumerable random companies, squads, and individuals have done so as well). If they're spending any time at their Fortress Monastery (which they're often portrayed as doing quite a bit for long periods of time), they're not out fighting. Travel time is huge, and that alone additionally limits how many places they can be.
What's more, Space Marine intelligence operations are largely limited to Scout observation (which might give you tactical and some meager operational level intel), and very rarely Librarian psyker-stuff, and sometimes interrogations. Almost no SigInt, no recon aircraft, little/no strategic analysis, etc everything operates on effectively a tactical level. They really don't have much of an intelligence apparatus. They wouldn't know *where* to land those surgical strikes most of the time, getting to grips with their foe would largely require a 3rd party telling them where to go (and in fact, this is often what happens, an Inquisitor shows up and says "strike here!"), but the vast majority of the time no such thing occurs, especially when they're off doing their own thing.
When there's literally *billions* of Imperial Guard regiments, equating to *hundreds of millions* of guardsmen per Space Marines, to say nothing of the numbers of the Imperial Navy or local PDF groups, as well as other forces like those of the Mechanicus and the like, it makes the military value of the Astartes equal to about a few hours worth of Imperial Guard recruitment. The numbers difference we're talking about here is like if you took *every* *single* combatant of the second world war from every nation, Soldier, Sailor, Partisan, etc. Multiplied them all by ten, that's about how many Guardsmen alone you'd have to each *single* Space Marine given GW's numbers. You'd be talking several hundred thousand tanks, IFV's, bombers, fighters, around attack aircraft, and artillery each, for every single Space Marine, and that's not even getting into the numbers of the Imperium's enemies.
This is just an issue of the setting. 40k is a Fantasy setting in space that is really a "swords and sorcery" scale story slapped into a setting billions of times larger without any appreciation for the scale involved.
For the Space Marines to make sense, they should either have all been destroyed very quickly at the dawn of the Imperium, or their numbers should be ten thousand fold what they are now.
epronovost wrote: @Ashiraya You fail to answer my question about boltgun and so did dusara217. If you say that boltgun reduce people into mist, we can expect more powerful weapon to do the same. Where lies the difference? How much more powerful is the pulse rifle for exemple? What can it do better than the boltgun?
Honestly? I don't think it is. I think it is better than a human bolter. But then, making superbuff guys in superbuff armour so that each can wield heavier weapons with ease and then give them guns any guy could use doesn't make sense, so I buy into the notion that Marines get bigger bolters in both weapon size and bullet size. And plasma guns, and meltas and so on and so forth. You don't put an LMG as the turret of an Abrams. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
epronovost wrote: Industrial cutting laser and lascanon generate heat far bellow that of a plasma weapon or a melta gun.
Except, you know, Lascannons are incredibly consistently portrayed as having a bigger punch than plasmas. Except plasma weapons apparently being hot enough to instantly ignite the entire atmosphere, believing the commonly given number and the approximate size of a plasma shot. Yes, plasma guns are described as being as hot as the heart of a star, which means tens of millions of degrees celsius. Useful weapon, the plasma pistol, capable of wiping out all life on a world with one round.
Who needs Exterminatus?
Oh, and Meltas rely a lot on being at point-blank range.
epronovost wrote: Do we agree that plasma gun and melta gun ignore the power armour protection
No. I am not buying the 'hot as the heart of a star' BS. We can agree it is one of the more effective weapons available, however.
epronovost wrote: single shot on the chest of one of these weapon will kill with certainty a Space Marine
Hell no. I know it's grimdark hehehehe sweats nervously to have the OP supertough supersoldiers be oneshotted by ubiquitous weapons, but it's not something I agree will 'reliably' happen.
epronovost wrote: if he stand in their threat range (300 meters or so)?
Meltaguns, 300 meter range? What?
epronovost wrote: I also completly forgot about hot-shot lasgun. How do these work against astartes plates? Dusara217 noted me that you said they offer a measure of protection. Sorry to have misunderstood you on that point, but can you provide more detail please?
Hellguns? More effective than lasguns at penetrating PA, so certainly a superior choice, but in the end it has the same problem - lack of punch. Not that impressive against tougher targets, though soft targets in good armour is a great use for it.
epronovost wrote: Space Marines are called Marines because they were design to fight deep space battle on ennemy ships which are cramped space by definition.
They're called Marines because it's a cool name. They are designed to be post-human supersoldiers that can intimidate and overwhelm the horrifying aliens of a hostile galaxy in a great crusade, and that is what they did.
epronovost wrote: The roof of a first floor building is usually 8 or 9 feet tall with a door frames of 7 feets.
Source? I have not seen any numbers on Imperial architecture, but it certainly seems monumental and massive in design pretty much everywhere outside of underhives.
epronovost wrote: I don't think there were any explicit mention of a Space Marine runnig at more than 100 000 kilometer per hour. A shady description by Aron Demsky Bowden using a literary process called narrative projection were a omniscient narrator describe an event to make you feel like those who witness it isn't usable to make that kind of projection. Your quote of page 3 uses the exact same literary process. It's a workhorse of war drama else the description are too clinic and get boring. I could write you back your paragraph in a more clinical term if you want to see the difference between the two process if you want.
You may not like it, but that does not make it less canon.
Obviously, we can apply the same 'exaggeration for dramatic effect' to all races, leaving us effectively at the starting point.
@ Vaktathi
TBH, the Space Marines really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. They are too few to actually matter (most of the time) and usually only make a difference when shat's about to go down (like the Reign of Blood being ended by Space Marines).
As far as intelligence, they mostly rely upon orbital scans, which are likely quite accurate after 20k years or so of them being constantly worked on and becoming more advanced and precise to be the equal of Necron tech (see: DAoT), until the last 15k years, when technology stagnated (I'm estimating them coming into use at 5k AD, but It's likely earlier than that).
As far as Chapters go, they rarely operate as a Chapter, with Space Marines mostly operating as Strike Forces composed of two or three Squads, with a Demi-Company or full Company every now and then. I agree on the Thunderhawk thing (seriously, Chapters would need AT LEAST a few hundred Thunderhawks and a decent flow of replacements, which they have in my head canon).
Of course if you believe in 9 foot tall marines on average their weapon would be more powerful than human ones, but 7 foot tall marines like those describe by GW on the home page of their web site or 3rd to 5th eddition codex (I don't own the new one) would have identical weapon to SoB or other human troopers.
You are right that plasma weapon can't be that hot, but they could be hotter than the surface of the sun (10 000 degree celcius). Lightning bolts are three times hotter than that. You could theoricaly make them more 100 000 degree celcius without incenerating the air wich is about 100 times hoter than molten granit. For the 300 meters range, it was for plasma gun. Melta gun would be more like 50 meters I think.
I think Space Marines were made for deep space battle because their greatest asset is the fact they have and command their own fleet. It's their greatest logistical and strategical advantage. Most important battle in a science fiction setting like 40K would be space battle. Win space superiority and you can dictate a lot of things.
Marines comes from the the term mariner witch gave marauders and was used to described Norse invaders during the 10th century. Now it describes elite troopers who specilised in amphibious assault (just like the Norse raiders) and combined arm operation. It does fit what the Space Marines are supposed to do and it does involve a lot of space battles. For the roofs, I used the size of our buidings norms (medieval architecture is even smaller). Imperial architecture must be of human size for obvious reason and only churchs and palace would have hug ceilling. Bunkers, fortress and habitation blocks must be very small and cheaply made don't you think?
I do agree with you that the fluff is very inconcistent, prone to exageration and contradictory statement like your Brother of the Snake were 10 Space Marines kill a 1000 Dark Eldars without casualty and Gaunt Ghost were 5 Chaos Space Marines (1 being a choas champion with an autocanon and an other with a plasma gun) are killed by 10 guardsmen and a 100 low tech warriors with very few casualty on their side. Both of these two stories even have the same author so we can't even pin that difference in power level by the vision of two different author. For that, I would propose you to declare all books and short stories irrelevent to the discussion and stick to purely descriptive fluff.
I would retract my first statement. Your vision of the Space Marines is logic, possbile and consistent with your idea of them has the ultimate warriors, but it does not describe well what we can read about them and has a lot of weakness in my opinion. For exemple, it contradict well established facts about them like their size, the comparative strength of their weapon, etc. But, if you elect to ignore that to respect their mythos has the ultimate warriors and place them head and shoulder over all the other armies, races and combattant, then I must admit it does it's job and remains mostly believable (I still got a hard time with how resistant, big and fast you make them, but that's just me).
I have nit picked a lot about your vision in the last two pages. Would you care to do the same with mine? I think it will stand the test better than yours, but there is only one way to find out...
@dusara217
Very well written. I like your explaination about all those weapon. I will have to modify my description of the bolter strength of page three.
epronovost wrote: @Ashiraya Of course if you believe in 9 foot tall marines on average their weapon would be more powerful than human ones, but 7 foot tall marines like those describe by GW on the home page of their web site or 3rd to 5th eddition codex (I don't own the new one) would have identical weapon to SoB or other human troopers.
Well, BL just placed them at 8'...
Let's face it, GW will never be consistent with this.
You are right that plasma weapon can't be that hot, but they could be hotter than the surface of the sun (10 000 degree celcius). Lightning bolts are three times hotter than that. You could theoricaly make them more 100 000 degree celcius without incenerating the air wich is about 100 times hoter than molten granit. For the 300 meters range, it was for plasma gun. Melta gun would be more like 50 meters I think.
By all means, Plasma Guns are dangerous things, don't get me wrong. Especially the bigger ones. But they are not quite the I.W.I.N. buttons they are sometimes thought as.
I think Space Marines were made for deep space battle because their greatest asset is the fact they have and command their own fleet. It's their greatest logistical and strategical advantage. Most important battle in a science fiction setting like 40K would be space battle. Win space superiority and you can dictate a lot of things.
Actually, I believe they have a use that is far more grimdark when you think about it;
They fight things the Guard simply can't take on. Such as Eldar, who move too fast for the Guard to hit. (Space Marines are faster and so stand a chance of doing so.) Or Tyranids, whose Warriors are incredibly tough and incredibly numerous. Many of the horrors of the galaxy are also huge, which means that they won't be in places where large size is a problem.
Marines comes from the the term mariner witch gave marauders and was used to described Norse invaders during the 10th century. Now it describes elite troopers who specilised in amphibious assault (just like the Norse raiders) and combined arm operation. It does fit what the Space Marines are supposed to do and it does involve a lot of space battles. For the roofs, I used the size of our buidings norms (medieval architecture is even smaller). Imperial architecture must be of human size for obvious reason and only churchs and palace would have hug ceilling. Bunkers, fortress and habitation blocks must be very small and cheaply made don't you think?
When Space Marines must assault or hold an important location, it's usually an irreplaceable structure such as a relic Manufactorum, and those things are usually those things you'd expect to be massive and oversized. You don't need to dig those aliens out of the underhive because underhives are expendable. Just bomb the place.
I do agree with you that the fluff is very inconcistent, prone to exageration and contradictory statement like your Brother of the Snake were 10 Space Marines kill a 1000 Dark Eldars without casualty and Gaunt Ghost were 5 Chaos Space Marines (1 being a choas champion with an autocanon and an other with a plasma gun) are killed by 10 guardsmen and a 100 low tech warriors with very few casualty on their side. Both of these two stories even have the same author so we can't even pin that difference in power level by the vision of two different author. For that, I would propose you to declare all books and short stories irrelevent to the discussion and stick to purely descriptive fluff.
Unfortunately, BL is by far our biggest source of fluff, and the codices and FW stuff is not consistent either (In the SM codex Telion and three dozen scouts defeat a rebel planet in under a day, and the FW listed caliber of the Leman Russ is waaaaaaaaaaaay below any art or model)
I would retract my first statement. Your vision of the Space Marines is logic, possbile and consistent with your idea of them has the ultimate warriors, but it does not describe well what we can read about them and has a lot of weakness in my opinion. For exemple, it contradict well established facts about them like their size, the comparative strength of their weapon, etc. But, if you elect to ignore that to respect their mythos has the ultimate warriors and place them head and shoulder over all the other armies, races and combattant, then I must admit it does it's job and remains mostly believable (I still got a hard time with how resistant, big and fast you make them, but that's just me).
Ah no, you misunderstand me. My intention is not to place them head and shoulders above the other races. My intention is to place them head, shoulders, torso and waist over humans. In my experience, while Space Marines outmatch mortals extremely, it's less simple in the case of aliens, traitors and similar monsters. Aspect Warriors are equal matches for Space Marines. Nobz, while something Space Marines can defeat one-on-one, are still incredibly lethal. Tyranid Lictors, Raveners, Warriors... All of them are just as, if not even more, gob-smackingly amazing in combat. Then we have Daemons. And Necrons...
No, my 40K is not one where Space Marines butcher all armies with ease. It is just one where the power scale is suitably insanely steep, with the poor humans firmly occupying the bottom, and the first ten spots above them being empty (aside from scions and the like).
To illustrate, a size comparison I've assembled from my own impression and experience of the 40K setting: (warning, massive picture)
Spoiler:
I have nit picked a lot about your vision in the last two pages. Would you care to do the same with mine? I think it will stand the test better than yours, but there is only one way to find out...
I don't think it will be necessary. You know what I think of yours, and I know what you think of mine.
That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion
Bobthehero wrote: That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion
They don't. Space Marines are there for when you're facing a colossal shatstorm and may need the extra firepower.
Bobthehero wrote: That doesn't make sense, a normal human might be under most things, but there's a reason the IG is perfectly capable of winning on their own, they shouldn't need the SM to show whenever they face anything that's not a rebellion
You misunderstand me. There's plenty of enemies in 40K that are not either superdangerous superspacemonsters or human rebels.
Orks, for example. Orks are very dangerous but usually something the IG can take on alone.
But when those Aspect Warriors sprint through your lines faster than any human gun or eye can track them, each eviscerating half a dozen men with each pass, you're going to need something more than just human.
It makes them only efficient on ships that were conceived with your giant Astartes in mind (or Ogryn and Primarch). Since they were used in the Horus Heresy, they might have fallen out of fashion and could still be useless or very limited against human empires that built ships for normal human, necrons, eldars corsaire ships, tau, kroots, etc.
We have concrete evidence that fethhuge Ogryns are so good at boarding actions that it's considered a primary role. This wouldn't be if they only had a narrow range of available targets. Xenos existed in 30k. The Charonites predate the Heresy.
In fact I would say that it's complete conjecture to say they were used extensively against xenos in 30K and are still used in 40K, for the box of text you posted mention that their primary use was against the Dark Mechanicus and Traitor Legionnaires. While it may be possible, it still is conjecture. They seemed to be a rare thing before the Heresy probably because their use was indeed very limited to certain target and certain types of boarding action. When fighting became more intense, the need to kill monstrous superhuman warriors in cavernous corridors of ships became a huge necessity. Ironically, they were probably a very rare and limited tool before they became a necessity. Think of them like the M26Pershing tanks who were made and deployed in the last year of WWII to hunt and destroy heavy tanks, but saw very little use outside of zones where air support could do the job more efficently and were close support tanks were more usefull. If allied forces had not win the sky yet, these tanks would have been very important to prevent the Nazi armored division to crush them.
(yes, I am a bit of a Gondor fan)
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