Setting some ground points; an Imperial ship can cross the entirety of our galaxy, which is 100,000 Ly, in 1-2 years. Warp current/storm depending of course but according to multiple places I've looked at, that's generally the average. If they extend beyond the range of the astronomicon, the speed drops because they have to make smaller jumps with course corrections.

Now, the reason, as Lexicanum states, why the Imperium hasn't tried to go to another galaxy is and I quote, "The distances between galaxies are so vast as to make inter-galactic travel unfeasible"...... yet obviously no one actually picked up a book or looked online because the nearest major galaxy (andromeda) is only 2.5 million LY away.... so only 25 times the length of our galaxy.

Even if an imperial ship was going 1/2 its normal speed it would get there in 50-100 years. Hell, even Humans in the 40k Universe could do that trip with rejuvenation treatments, let alone space marines. Let's say the Imperial Ships only go 1/10th their normal speed, that's still 250-500 years... easily within the capability of Space Marines or humans stored in cryogenic pods (the technology exists as shown with Eversors).



Why doesn't the Imperium send an expedition fleet to check it out?
Worst case scenario - Galaxy filled with gribblies and the expedition fleet gets destroyed. No big loss to the Imperium.
Best case scenario - Galaxy filled with verdant worlds and rich quantities of raw materials and it's ripe for colonization and construction, without the threat and pressure of constant war. Then the Imperium could use that galaxy to build up forces and send them over to help our Milky Way. Potentially infinite gain for the Imperium.

What do you think? Thoughts, opinions, anything.

The Adeptus Mechanicus once set a probe outside the Milky Way.


All it found were Ork signals surrounding the Milky Way. Which isn't that surprising- it's quite possible Orks have infested the entire Local Group over the past sixty million years.

The problem is the likes of the Halo Zone and the Goul Stars.

The light of the Astronomican, mighty as it is, simply cannot reach further then the areas of the Milky Way known to humanity of the Imperium, and as such there is no reliable way of navigating in the Warp beyond the galactic fringe. The Mechanicum was desperate enough to try something like this during the Long Night, and it's all they could do to join the Imperium during the Great Crusade and try finding those Mechanicum colonies that hasn't been destroyed yet, after the warp had calmed down a bit. They could not communicate because there was no reliable way of sending telepathic messages, nor it is even possible to establish a route due to the increasingly unreliability of the Warp, the lack of a reference point whose role was later fulfilled by the light of the Astronomican was also an issue.

To go beyond the galactic fringe is to lose the guidance of the only reference point in the Warp known to men. Thereby making establishing a colony outside of the Milky Way pointless: after all, what use is a second base when said base cannot hear from you or reach you when you need them?

 lcmiracle wrote:
The problem is the likes of the Halo Zone and the Goul Stars.

The light of the Astronomican, mighty as it is, simply cannot reach further then the areas of the Milky Way known to humanity of the Imperium, and as such there is no reliable way of navigating in the Warp beyond the galaxy fringe. The Mechanicum was desparate enough to try something like this during the Long Night, and it's all they can do to join the Imperium and try finding those Mechanicum colonies that hasn't been destroyed yet during the Great Crusade, after the warp had calmed down a bit. They could not communicate because there was no reliable way of sending telepathic messages, nor it is even possible to establish a route due to the increasingly unreliability of the Warp, the lack of a reference point whose role was later fulfilled by the Astronomican was also an issue.

To go beyond the galaxy fringe is to lose the guidance of the only reference point in the Warp known to men. Thereby making establishing a colony outside of the Milky Way pointless: after all, what use is a second base when said base cannot reach you when you need them?

I'm pretty sure this is the exact reason. Unfortunately, warp travel without the Astronomican is essentially like rolling in glass fragments then jumping into a shark tank and hoping said sharks aren't paying attention to you. You might get lucky, but more often than not you just plain aren't gonna make it.

Plus the Astronomican is actually weakening, so even the formerly secure galactic assets at the edge of the galaxy are becoming increasingly more difficult to reach, let alone whatever lies beyond it.

Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

 lcmiracle wrote:
Thereby making establishing a colony outside of the Milky Way pointless: after all, what use is a second base when said base cannot hear from you or reach you when you need them?

I can go with any silly explanation about the Astronomican, but that thing you added is just silly. An expansion to the stars is expansion for the sake of expansion. Your species spreads to new zones. They don't have to have contact with the people of your race on other planets, not to mention other star systems, not to mention other galaxies. Because time passes at different speeds all over the whole 'communication' aspect seems unfeasible. You visit your friend in another star system only to find that 500 standard years have passed there and your friends are long dead. Even ignoring all that, considering the 40K Milky Way is full of terrors and dangers and mankind has already expanded all over for no apparent reason other than to crusade to the stars, it's not far fetched to ask why mankind hasn't expanded to Andromeda in the 40K universe just for expansion's sake. The grass is always greener on the other side, and so on. Finally, you can continue to wonder why Eldar haven't done it since they aren't exactly safe here and could build their empire anew somewhere else, or Necrons, or whoever with the technology available to them.

Of course, the answer to the fact is that the 40K canon is old and the people who wrote it aren't scientists. It's easier to keep things simple.

The Imperium don't exactly have a great handle on the one Galaxy, let alone exploring others...

I only see this as a Noah's Ark project... which might happen soon. Abandon the Milky way galaxy and hope to find a safer and better one. Perhaps there are already human who have tried that and already have it's own small empire there in the other galaxy.

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Imperium don't exactly have a great handle on the one Galaxy, let alone exploring others...

This too. If the Great Crusade had finished successfully, I don't doubt that the Emperor would have looked into travelling to other galaxies at some point. As it stands now though, its a little too far-reaching.

In a utilitarian sort of society beset on all sides by war, it's probably very low on their priority list. Traveling x miles to find a prosperous world is one thing, traveling 25x miles is quite another. Add in the distance from the Astronomican and it seems like quite a challenge.

There might have been such projects back when humanity first expanded into the stars. I'm sure this persecuted group or the other thought it a great idea to try reaching another galaxy where they'd be free of the guys that said their religion, race, society etc was wrong. Maybe that's where all the black people went?

In the 40K setting some forward-thinking High Lord could perhaps start a project, but he'll have to convince others that it's worth putting resources on. Making sure humanity doesn't die if this galaxy falls isn't a bad point... But whatever happens we'll never know if they got there.

 Therion wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
Thereby making establishing a colony outside of the Milky Way pointless: after all, what use is a second base when said base cannot hear from you or reach you when you need them?

I can go with any silly explanation about the Astronomican, but that thing you added is just silly. An expansion to the stars is expansion for the sake of expansion. Your species spreads to new zones. They don't have to have contact with the people of your race on other planets, not to mention other star systems, not to mention other galaxies. Because time passes at different speeds all over the whole 'communication' aspect seems unfeasible. You visit your friend in another star system only to find that 500 standard years have passed there and your friends are long dead. Even ignoring all that, considering the 40K Milky Way is full of terrors and dangers and mankind has already expanded all over for no apparent reason other than to crusade to the stars, it's not far fetched to ask why mankind hasn't expanded to Andromeda in the 40K universe just for expansion's sake. The grass is always greener on the other side, and so on. Finally, you can continue to wonder why Eldar haven't done it since they aren't exactly safe here and could build their empire anew somewhere else, or Necrons, or whoever with the technology available to them.

Of course, the answer to the fact is that the 40K canon is old and the people who wrote it aren't scientists. It's easier to keep things simple.

The Galatic Fringe had always been the impassable barrier in the 40K lore. For the Imperium it's simply a project impossible to execute -- they are not expansionists any more, and no navigator would go beyond the light of Astronomican.

You seem to believe that the Imperium has the luxury of looking to outside of the window and think: "Gee, maybe today I will march 10,000 miles to the other side of the mountain, and watch the flowers bloom", but the problem is the mountain itself is near-impenetrable. Macharius tried to do to the Halo Zone once and his entire force crumbled because no one would go where no man has gone before™, simply because how impenetrable the zone is, and how perilous those places are. It's no a matter of simply climbing a mountain, it's a matter having to climb the steepest, highest the mountain side in the entire known universe, with bare hands, and blind-folded. It cannot be done without the greatest luck, and such a task is no something a regressive, ultra-conservative Imperium would do while almost constantly being besieged on all fronts.

And yes, the 40K writers are not scientists, heke they are not even sci-fi writers. But to dismiss that to be "illogical" (note that logic is simply a way of deriving a conclusion from premises and claims, it itself doesn't have to be true nor real) is just ignorant. When the writers clearly made it so the milky way is like a locked-cage for most of the races with good premises, premises that logically lead to the inescapable fates of these factions/races (except the Necrons and the Nids, and to some extend, the Greenskins as well).

As for why the Eldar doesn't try going out, the answer is they can't; at least none we know of can. Their webway network shrunk during the War in Heaven and the Fall, countless passageway breached by the warp, and daemonic fiends roam the Webway. None, save maybe the Harlequins know the entirety of the Webway, let alone find a way out of the Milky Way. Furthermore we do not even know if the Webway have connections to outside of the Milky Way, or if such passageways, if existed, had already been destroyed.

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

But how do we know that? How do we know that each galaxy hasn't formed its own unique warp? Surely the fact that all of the Chaos Gods/daemons of the warp that we know of were formed by races/emotions originating from this galaxy implies that the warp is specific to this galaxy. So does each galaxy have a localized, unique warp that reflects its own inhabitants? Or is our galaxy unique in that it even has a warp?

I think that is probably the deepest thought I have ever had relating to 40k.

 Orblivion wrote:


But how do we know that? How do we know that each galaxy hasn't formed its own unique warp? Surely the fact that all of the Chaos Gods/daemons of the warp that we know of were formed by races/emotions originating from this galaxy would mean that the warp is specific to this galaxy. So does each galaxy have a localized, unique warp that reflects its own inhabitants?

I think that is probably the deepest thought I have ever had relating to 40k.

You're so deep, I can't even see you anymore. It's entirely possible that we're both correct and if a sentient life form from our galaxy were to cross the inky black into another, it would create an overlap that interrupts communications and travel near wherever we emerged. This "shadow" would probably be proportionate to the number of sentient beings from our galaxy were present.

Wait a minute...

 Orblivion wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

But how do we know that? How do we know that each galaxy hasn't formed its own unique warp? Surely the fact that all of the Chaos Gods/daemons of the warp that we know of were formed by races/emotions originating from this galaxy implies that the warp is specific to this galaxy. So does each galaxy have a localized, unique warp that reflects its own inhabitants? Or is our galaxy unique in that it even has a warp?

I think that is probably the deepest thought I have ever had relating to 40k.

Would you stake your life on that proposition? Or would you risk your life and crew only to end up stranded in the void between galaxies?

So, we just solved the mystery of the shadow in the warp from the Tyranid.

I don't care if we can't prove it, I'm proud of us.

 Shidank wrote:
So, we just solved the mystery of the shadow in the warp from the Tyranid.

I don't care if we can't prove it, I'm proud of us.

Ha, awesome. One more reason to hate the Tyranids, they brought their own Warp with them.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
So, we just solved the mystery of the shadow in the warp from the Tyranid.

I don't care if we can't prove it, I'm proud of us.

Ha, awesome. One more reason to hate the Tyranids, they brought their own Warp with them.

I joke, but this is entirely feasible by your own theory and mine. It's possible that they occupy the same plane of un-space and incompatibilities block one off to such a degree that we would normally consider it another Chaos God. The saving grace is that it's Tyranid...and they really don't have maniacal plans, just....dinner plans.

 Shidank wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


But how do we know that? How do we know that each galaxy hasn't formed its own unique warp? Surely the fact that all of the Chaos Gods/daemons of the warp that we know of were formed by races/emotions originating from this galaxy would mean that the warp is specific to this galaxy. So does each galaxy have a localized, unique warp that reflects its own inhabitants?

I think that is probably the deepest thought I have ever had relating to 40k.

You're so deep, I can't even see you anymore. It's entirely possible that we're both correct and if a sentient life form from our galaxy were to cross the inky black into another, it would create an overlap that interrupts communications and travel near wherever we emerged. This "shadow" would probably be proportionate to the number of sentient beings from our galaxy were present.

Wait a minute...

Now I am all for putting every human and Space Marines in stasis or hibernation, loaded on countless Imperial ships, and instead of use the Warp because all these ships would get lost, and the Navigators would probably die of old age before even getting across the inter-galatic void, we launch all the ships to a random point beyond the milky-way, and have servitors and whatever that can maintain them manage the ships so they don't run into a star or a black hole. Just so if they managed to hit a world in another galaxy the humans can become the new great devourer.

It is believed that the Tyranids have devoured at least 12 other galaxies before arriving at this one. It is plausible to think that these 12 others are those closest to the Milky Way. Thus, even if they were to go there, Mankind would find nothing but barren, lifeless rocks.

 lcmiracle wrote:


Now I am all for putting every human and Space Marines in stasis or hibernation, loaded on countless Imperial ships, and instead of use the Warp because all these ships would get lost, and the Navigators would probably die of old age before even getting across the inter-galatic void, we launch all the ships to a random point beyond the milky-way, and have servitors and whatever that can maintain them manage the ships so they don't run into a star or a black hole. Just so if they managed to hit a world in another galaxy the humans can become the new great devourer.

This may be what the Silent King meant when he said mankind was the shield against the Tyranid.

If the Tyranid have consumed and occupied 12 galaxies and their presence in the immaterium is vast enough to reflect that, they could be a stone's throw away from manifesting as a new blend of proto-daemon, or even a gestalt new chaos god.

 Shidank wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:


Now I am all for putting every human and Space Marines in stasis or hibernation, loaded on countless Imperial ships, and instead of use the Warp because all these ships would get lost, and the Navigators would probably die of old age before even getting across the inter-galatic void, we launch all the ships to a random point beyond the milky-way, and have servitors and whatever that can maintain them manage the ships so they don't run into a star or a black hole. Just so if they managed to hit a world in another galaxy the humans can become the new great devourer.

This may be what the Silent King meant when he said mankind was the shield against the Tyranid.

If the Tyranid have consumed and occupied 12 galaxies and their presence in the immaterium is vast enough to reflect that, they could be a stone's throw away from manifesting as a new blend of proto-daemon, or even a gestalt new chaos god.

You could even say that the reason people like Tigurius and now Mephiston have finally been able to interact with the Hive Mind at all is because it is slowly being influenced by the sentient beings of this galaxy. It is being converted into our galaxy's version of the Warp, and is reaching a point where it can be better perceived.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:


Now I am all for putting every human and Space Marines in stasis or hibernation, loaded on countless Imperial ships, and instead of use the Warp because all these ships would get lost, and the Navigators would probably die of old age before even getting across the inter-galatic void, we launch all the ships to a random point beyond the milky-way, and have servitors and whatever that can maintain them manage the ships so they don't run into a star or a black hole. Just so if they managed to hit a world in another galaxy the humans can become the new great devourer.

This may be what the Silent King meant when he said mankind was the shield against the Tyranid.

If the Tyranid have consumed and occupied 12 galaxies and their presence in the immaterium is vast enough to reflect that, they could be a stone's throw away from manifesting as a new blend of proto-daemon, or even a gestalt new chaos god.

You could even say that the reason people like Tigurius and now Mephiston have finally been able to interact with the Hive Mind at all is because it is slowly being influenced by the sentient beings of this galaxy. It is being converted into our galaxy's version of the Warp, and is reaching a point where it can be better perceived.

Assimilating so much life from our galaxy could explain this.

Why is no one else excited about this??

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

Actually, that's just Chaos, the Warp itself is a whole other dimension, with the spaces between Galaxies probably fairly peaceful and full of Order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

But how do we know that? How do we know that each galaxy hasn't formed its own unique warp? Surely the fact that all of the Chaos Gods/daemons of the warp that we know of were formed by races/emotions originating from this galaxy implies that the warp is specific to this galaxy. So does each galaxy have a localized, unique warp that reflects its own inhabitants? Or is our galaxy unique in that it even has a warp?

I think that is probably the deepest thought I have ever had relating to 40k.

The Warp is an entire dimension, logic would dictate that the Milky Way's local Warp Gods would not have dominion over another galaxy's local Warp, due to originating here and thriving here


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
It is believed that the Tyranids have devoured at least 12 other galaxies before arriving at this one. It is plausible to think that these 12 others are those closest to the Milky Way. Thus, even if they were to go there, Mankind would find nothing but barren, lifeless rocks.

But the Mechanicum detected Orkoid life in all of the surrounding galaxies, so perhaps the Tyraniss have devoured ONE of the surrounding galaxies and twelve others that form a kind of chain of dead galaxies, and we're next in line.

What the Mechanicum did was launch a probe beyond the galactic rim, and found only Ork communication signals. Whether these Orks have actually colonized extra-galactic worlds or not is unknown, since Orks bring their own ecology with them, and can live on asteroids.

Speaking of, you know, science, wouldn't any signals they picked up have traveled outside of galaxies and be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years old?

Only if they're actually from another galaxy and not from an Ork Rok drifting around in the void beyond the galactic rim.

That's feasible with the way they reproduce, but they wouldn't be much more than galactic roaches scattered in the inky black.

Indeed. The point of the probe the Mechanicus launched was to see what else was out there in space, beyond the Milky Way. They discovered (at the time that fluff was written, which was a long, long time ago) that, anywhere they went, the Orks had beaten them to it.

Which, given that the Orks are some sixty million years old, is not really surprising. They had a lot of time after the Necrons went to sleep and the Eldar withdrew to their own Empire to go tooling around in space and spread the Green Tide far and wide.

Wouldn't more recent fluff retcon that to the Tyranid storyline?

That many orks wouldn't work as well with the gestalt theory of Ork engineering either. They'd be demigods.

The Orks (then called the Krork) were created as the "shock troops" of the Old Ones to fight the Necrons in the War in Heaven, which is some 60 million years prior to M40. That's the current origins of the Orks.

The Tyranids are not native to the Milky Way, of course, being entirely extra-galactic. At some point between the initiation of the Great Sleep and M40, the Silent King of the Necrons, zooming about the void between galaxies, encountered the Tyranids, went "oh, shiiiiii-", turned around and flew back here to start waking his people up.

Now, we don't know where the Tyranids came from, how long they've been around, or how long it takes them to go from one galaxy to the next. It could be that, 45 million years ago, there were no Tyranids and the Orks spread out to 37 other galaxies, and then 20 million years ago the Tyranids came about, ate all those Ork galaxies, and then started heading for this one, and what the Mechanicus found was the millions-of-years-old radio signals of those now-extinct Ork colonies... but we're not told anything that specific.

Given there understanding of local warp travel is abit sketchy in places. Inter galactic is abit beyond the impirium I think. Even with the most advanced warp engines there's the problem of navigation. Without the beacon there is no human way points to work against.

Maybe chaos may have a shot with there possessed not needing it I think.

Maybe during dark age of tech but mankind has sunk a long way.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Orks (then called the Krork) were created as the "shock troops" of the Old Ones to fight the Necrons in the War in Heaven, which is some 60 million years prior to M40. That's the current origins of the Orks.

The Tyranids are not native to the Milky Way, of course, being entirely extra-galactic. At some point between the initiation of the Great Sleep and M40, the Silent King of the Necrons, zooming about the void between galaxies, encountered the Tyranids, went "oh, shiiiiii-", turned around and flew back here to start waking his people up.

Now, we don't know where the Tyranids came from, how long they've been around, or how long it takes them to go from one galaxy to the next. It could be that, 45 million years ago, there were no Tyranids and the Orks spread out to 37 other galaxies, and then 20 million years ago the Tyranids came about, ate all those Ork galaxies, and then started heading for this one, and what the Mechanicus found was the millions-of-years-old radio signals of those now-extinct Ork colonies... but we're not told anything that specific.

I'm assuming then a light retcon of those signals being of extinct orks. The Devourer is a relatively recent introduction.

Nothing has outright said that the probe story no longer exists or was changed. It's just a blurb in an old Ork Codex, iirc, that hints that the Orks have spread throughout space, and is told from an Imperial POV.

It also doesn't go into much detail (iirc, it's just some side-bar note, white text in a black box, as they are fond of doing) the main point of it being that "wherever Man goes, he finds the Orks have gone there first" sort of deal.

As previously mentioned, this probe doesn't actually go to any other galaxies, it just went beyond the galactic rim, and my bit up above about Orks settling distant galaxies is entirely made-up, there's nothing that supports that it's ever happened, but nothing to say that it didn't. It's just one of many possible scenarios.

We can entertain scenarios of Orks adrift without clashing with existing fluff, I think.

Dialing back a bit, I think our proposition on the nature of the Shadow in the Warp is a good indication of what is to be expected from warp travel to other galaxies, assuming one ever survived the trip.

It's possible Dark Age man had the technology, but impossible to know if they were successful in anything but sucking and dying once they found a galaxy bereft of life.

 Shidank wrote:
We can entertain scenarios of Orks adrift without clashing with existing fluff, I think.

Dialing back a bit, I think our proposition on the nature of the Shadow in the Warp is a good indication of what is to be expected from warp travel to other galaxies, assuming one ever survived the trip.

It's possible Dark Age man had the technology, but impossible to know if they were successful in anything but sucking and dying once they found a galaxy bereft of life.

You actually have a point...... DAOT humans had probe ships scouting out galaxies, hell, one returned to the Milky Way into the 40k timeline (book Death of Integrity). For all we know, humanity did in fact set up colonies and expansions in other galaxies -- but were cut off by the Long Night like the rest of humanity. They might have been able to still use the warp in their own galaxies but they were completely isolated from the rest of humanity in the Milky Way. Some of those colonies might have even survived and might still exist now (or are being eaten now by nids).

It's even possible that humans have already travelled to other galaxies entirely by mistake. Who really knows what happens to ships/squadrons/fleets that disappear in the warp?

Even though we're told 'Nids have eaten nearby galaxies we don't know they've eaten every nearby galaxy. Does anyone think they saved the Milky Way for last in our cluster, like the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? It seems rather more likely they've pushed out from one galactic direction and the Milky Way was just the next snack-cluster encountered.

That's why I think there are Tyranid-free galaxies adjoining our Milky Way, just as there are galaxies that have been bug-scoured.

My two teef.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
It's even possible that humans have already travelled to other galaxies entirely by mistake. Who really knows what happens to ships/squadrons/fleets that disappear in the warp?

Even though we're told 'Nids have eaten nearby galaxies we don't know they've eaten every nearby galaxy. Does anyone think they saved the Milky Way for last in our cluster, like the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? It seems rather more likely they've pushed out from one galactic direction and the Milky Way was just the next snack-cluster encountered.

That's why I think there are Tyranid-free galaxies adjoining our Milky Way, just as there are galaxies that have been bug-scoured.

My two teef.

I like to think they're just moving in a line and haven't eaten everything YET.

I wonder what the Eldar thought of extra-galactic travel?

 Shidank wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
It's even possible that humans have already travelled to other galaxies entirely by mistake. Who really knows what happens to ships/squadrons/fleets that disappear in the warp?

Even though we're told 'Nids have eaten nearby galaxies we don't know they've eaten every nearby galaxy. Does anyone think they saved the Milky Way for last in our cluster, like the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? It seems rather more likely they've pushed out from one galactic direction and the Milky Way was just the next snack-cluster encountered.

That's why I think there are Tyranid-free galaxies adjoining our Milky Way, just as there are galaxies that have been bug-scoured.

My two teef.

I like to think they're just moving in a line and haven't eaten everything YET.

I wonder what the Eldar thought of extra-galactic travel?

Well the Dark Eldar find the entire idea boring . So much empty space with nothing to do and no-one to torture... and maybe even nothing to do and no-one to torture when they get there as well.

I believe the Craftworld Eldar are simply too arrogant to try. They believe this is their galaxy and won't leave it even when it may be prudent to do so.
This is probably the case for the Necrons too.

I think it's strange that some of you see the Warp so simple. Why are you putting borders around the Warp when the Universe is endless? Sure Chaos and Daemons are interested to enter the material Universe where there's sentient life but as soon as sentient life wakened Chaos, why shouldn't Chaos spread to the whole Warp which again are endless?

Is rather difficult to discuss this I think, but I just don't see why the Warp should be so limited and how it physically should match the Milky Way so exactly, when we know how shapeless, abstract and incomprehensible the Warp always is described

Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Btw, what do they call the MIlky Way in 40k? Or is it still the Milky Way?

If they make any reference to it at all, it's still the Milky Way, but usually it's just "the galaxy".

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if they're actually from another galaxy and not from an Ork Rok drifting around in the void beyond the galactic rim.

So what you're saying is... the Nids are running from the Orks !!!

Chaospling wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

As noted previously ITT, the Warp is affected by, colored by and made up of psycho-emotive energy that reflects and reacts to the general vibe of mortal creatures in a given area. When the galaxy is relatively calm, the Warp is relatively calm. When it's not, it isn't.

Get too far outside the realm of where mortal creatures dwell, and there's nothing to create, feed or reflect to/from that energy. Would also explain why, as fethed up as Chaos mutations can be, they're still recognizable as something that exists in the mortal plane, even if you don't normally see them in quite that configuration or colors. We don't see, for example, examples of wholly extra-galactic beings as Chaos mutants. Heck, even the Tyranids could be recognizably local in origin (they're insectoid, but not truly alien). This is, perhaps, caused by the limited creative scope of the franchise, but I find it a bit odd that, in its history, there's never been a Chaos gift that made you go "wow, that's certainly from somewhere far, far away".

There's also the fact that, going really far back, most of the Chaos Gods are created by human activity, rather than weird-ass Xenos or just certain emotions based on mortals, regardless of species. This has changed somewhat (when maybe GW realized that it didn't make any sense) but not so much that we can safely say that Khorne is a universal concept, for example.

 Psienesis wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

As noted previously ITT, the Warp is affected by, colored by and made up of psycho-emotive energy that reflects and reacts to the general vibe of mortal creatures in a given area. When the galaxy is relatively calm, the Warp is relatively calm. When it's not, it isn't.

Get too far outside the realm of where mortal creatures dwell, and there's nothing to create, feed or reflect to/from that energy. Would also explain why, as fethed up as Chaos mutations can be, they're still recognizable as something that exists in the mortal plane, even if you don't normally see them in quite that configuration or colors. We don't see, for example, examples of wholly extra-galactic beings as Chaos mutants. Heck, even the Tyranids could be recognizably local in origin (they're insectoid, but not truly alien). This is, perhaps, caused by the limited creative scope of the franchise, but I find it a bit odd that, in its history, there's never been a Chaos gift that made you go "wow, that's certainly from somewhere far, far away".

There's also the fact that, going really far back, most of the Chaos Gods are created by human activity, rather than weird-ass Xenos or just certain emotions based on mortals, regardless of species. This has changed somewhat (when maybe GW realized that it didn't make any sense) but not so much that we can safely say that Khorne is a universal concept, for example.

I think ( don't get upset if I am wrong) he doesn't know that ther are void spaces 10 to 1000 times the size of our galaxy Between each Galaxy. A galaxy is not a universe and in a universe...there are billions of Galaxies.

So the warp is a small dimension compare to the universe and is only a plane that is connected to this galaxy and not the universe...afaik

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

The Chaos Gods are older then existence, existed before the sentient races of the milky way, and have wormed their way into other dimensions (such as hyperspace) and other universes. They aren't restrained to merely occupying the Milky Way- the Warp is infinite, timeless, and breaks causality.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

The Chaos Gods are older then existence, existed before the sentient races of the milky way, and have wormed their way into other dimensions (such as hyperspace) and other universes. They aren't restrained to merely occupying the Milky Way- the Warp is infinite, timeless, and breaks causality.

I am not sure about this one...people talk a lot about other universe...the universe is a very big place and contain billions of galaxies.

The four chaos gods are a product of this galaxy ( Milky Way ) and I have not heard of another chaos gods from other galaxies....if ther are other life and chaos gods from other galaxy...it is with in the compound of that galaxy. It would be irelevent to this galaxy because the distance. Is just too far apart. GW have not talk about this because each galaxy is just too far apart to make this discussion even remotely important.

 david choe wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Are we even sure the warp extends beyond the limits of our own galaxy?

The warp is dependent on sentient life and cannot exist in the areas between galaxies.

The warp has always existed. It wasn't always full of 'daemons' or 'gods'. It's just full of energy that takes forms because of the emotions of psychic beings in the material universe.

Referring to the warp as a physical construct and limiting its size is a moot point. The warp, as was said, is present anywhere sentient life is. Therefore, if you were to take an expedition fleet beyond known boundaries of the Imperium, the warp would go with you. There's no telling where you might end up and wherever you did wouldn't be an extension of the existing warp, per se, just another physical place where the warp has been accessed.

The Chaos Gods are older then existence, existed before the sentient races of the milky way, and have wormed their way into other dimensions (such as hyperspace) and other universes. They aren't restrained to merely occupying the Milky Way- the Warp is infinite, timeless, and breaks causality.

I am not sure about this one...people talk a lot about other universe...the universe is a very big place and contain billions of galaxies.

The four chaos gods are a product of this galaxy ( Milky Way ) and I have not heard of another chaos gods from other galaxies....if ther are other life and chaos gods from other galaxy...it is with in the compound of that galaxy. It would be irelevent to this galaxy because the distance. Is just too far apart. GW have not talk about this because each galaxy is just too far apart to make this discussion even remotely important.

The Chaos Gods are only a partial creation of the Milky Way, or may not have truly originated from it. They ignore time/casuality, and existed before their own births (to the point that Slaanesh created Slaanesh). And no, the warp and Chaos is not restrained to the Milky Way. It exists beyond it. The Immaterium ignores all physical laws, and its "size" is not limited to the conventional definition of size. It's an alien realm made of unreality where by traveling it you can arrive at your destination before you left, exit in a completely different sector centuries later, get lost and spend the rest of eternity looking for a way out, etc.

And that's if the Chaos Gods even physically exist. Much like the Tyranids, their body and mind may simply be a distributed consciousness across all of their daemon thralls.

@Wyzilla:
I have tried that approach - the counter argument will be that you probably can't comprehend the vast distances in space between different kinds of systems containing sentient life. That an area containing no life means no Warp... It seems that I don't get anywhere telling that the Warp isn't that simple and straightforward. Good luck though

For the same reason you don't jump into the ocean and swim in random direction to find a better place.

@Wyzillia
If the warp extended beyound this galaxy, then how come nobody ever travel beyound this galaxy?

We have no idea what other galaxies are like so how do we know that Chaos are there too?

The warp infinity is infinity with in the warp, but it is finite in our universe. In other words, the 4 gods are in milky way.....then in galaxy x....there are other chaos gods for the xenons of that galaxy. If say...Khorne exist in galaxy x, then that Khorne has no concept or connection of our Khorne in milky way.
If the chaos gods are that powerful that they have power of the billions galaxies....nothing can stop them....milky way would be a drop of sweat to them.... But that is not the case is it.

BTW- there is no such a thing as other universes...if it exist....then it is part of this universe. Everything that exist and will ever exist is part of this universe and that Is it. If you said that universe b is over there...then universe b is part of this universe.

The multiverse can exist, but each universe will never be in contact or reachable...so it is pointless.

 david choe wrote:
@Wyzillia
If the warp extended beyound this galaxy, then how come nobody ever travel beyound this galaxy?

We have no idea what other galaxies are like so how do we know that Chaos are there too?

The warp infinity is infinity with in the warp, but it is finite in our universe. In other words, the 4 gods are in milky way.....then in galaxy x....there are other chaos gods for the xenons of that galaxy. If say...Khorne exist in galaxy x, then that Khorne has no concept or connection of our Khorne in milky way.
If the chaos gods are that powerful that they have power of the billions galaxies....nothing can stop them....milky way would be a drop of sweat to them.... But that is not the case is it.

That would imply you would ever hear about anyone who went beyond the Milky Way, as 40K lacks FTL coms besides Astropaths. Or for that matter, simply getting eaten by daemons as there is no Astronomicon to protect and guide you. Without the light, and without affiliation with Chaos (and even that isn't guaranteed protection) you're almost certainly going to end up lost- presumed eaten by locals.

Also, considering that run-of-the-mill Daemons can blow up stars, it is far more likely that Chaos is toying with the Milky Way galaxy. Although that also presumes that they even give a damn. You need to stop presuming the Chaos Gods operate under comprehensible means. They're Eldritch Abominations. All material life are ants before them, and it takes exceptional circumstance to cast their dread gaze in your direction and recognize your existence at all. And by the time that they do realize you even exist, you're typically dead.

 Psienesis wrote:
Nothing has outright said that the probe story no longer exists or was changed. It's just a blurb in an old Ork Codex, iirc, that hints that the Orks have spread throughout space, and is told from an Imperial POV.

It also doesn't go into much detail (iirc, it's just some side-bar note, white text in a black box, as they are fond of doing) the main point of it being that "wherever Man goes, he finds the Orks have gone there first" sort of deal.

As previously mentioned, this probe doesn't actually go to any other galaxies, it just went beyond the galactic rim, and my bit up above about Orks settling distant galaxies is entirely made-up, there's nothing that supports that it's ever happened, but nothing to say that it didn't. It's just one of many possible scenarios.

Here is the quote. From WD 118

Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra. Its mission was to reach the utmost limits of the universe. The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.

When the probe comes back they find out that the Orks have stuck a Radio or something on it to mess with them, so they need to send it back out again

 Wyzilla wrote:

 david choe wrote:
@Wyzillia
If the warp extended beyound this galaxy, then how come nobody ever travel beyound this galaxy?

We have no idea what other galaxies are like so how do we know that Chaos are there too?

The warp infinity is infinity with in the warp, but it is finite in our universe. In other words, the 4 gods are in milky way.....then in galaxy x....there are other chaos gods for the xenons of that galaxy. If say...Khorne exist in galaxy x, then that Khorne has no concept or connection of our Khorne in milky way.
If the chaos gods are that powerful that they have power of the billions galaxies....nothing can stop them....milky way would be a drop of sweat to them.... But that is not the case is it.

That would imply you would ever hear about anyone who went beyond the Milky Way, as 40K lacks FTL coms besides Astropaths. Or for that matter, simply getting eaten by daemons as there is no Astronomicon to protect and guide you. Without the light, and without affiliation with Chaos (and even that isn't guaranteed protection) you're almost certainly going to end up lost- presumed eaten by locals.

Also, considering that run-of-the-mill Daemons can blow up stars, it is far more likely that Chaos is toying with the Milky Way galaxy. Although that also presumes that they even give a damn. You need to stop presuming the Chaos Gods operate under comprehensible means. They're Eldritch Abominations. All material life are ants before them, and it takes exceptional circumstance to cast their dread gaze in your direction and recognize your existence at all. And by the time that they do realize you even exist, you're typically dead.

Well, show me proof then. I know warp is infinite...but are the chaos gods also infinite with in the warp.

Blowing up stars is a joke when we are talking about galaxies. Each galaxy has countless stars. The universe has countless galaxies.

You are telling me that demons have the power to crush grain of sand at the beach.
I don't think you understand the concept of what a galaxy or a universe is.

If chaos were a cosmic power in galatic scale....they can snap a finger and destroyed all of their enemies such as necrons or even tyranids....they don't have that kind of power. They are limited to this galaxy alone and they are part of this galaxy in their infinite warp.

All fluff suggested that chaos are only linked to this galaxy and not beyond.

Chaos power and all factions that are powerful are just one galaxy powerful ( whatever that means).
If you are saying that chaos is universal powerful (power of a billion galaxies)...we have no evidence to suggest this at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think OP has a good point.

GWnever address the issue of warp travel outside of this galaxy and in the void.

My theory...is that the warp is weak in the void because of the emptiness of life...so it is not possible to use the warp travel. Even with FTL tech...it would take a few 100,000 years to reach another galaxy. There are about 500 billions galaxies ....in the universe. To suggest that chaos has its claws all over those billions of galaxies ...is just typical idiotic GW numbers again.

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

As noted previously ITT, the Warp is affected by, colored by and made up of psycho-emotive energy that reflects and reacts to the general vibe of mortal creatures in a given area. When the galaxy is relatively calm, the Warp is relatively calm. When it's not, it isn't.

Get too far outside the realm of where mortal creatures dwell, and there's nothing to create, feed or reflect to/from that energy. Would also explain why, as fethed up as Chaos mutations can be, they're still recognizable as something that exists in the mortal plane, even if you don't normally see them in quite that configuration or colors. We don't see, for example, examples of wholly extra-galactic beings as Chaos mutants. Heck, even the Tyranids could be recognizably local in origin (they're insectoid, but not truly alien). This is, perhaps, caused by the limited creative scope of the franchise, but I find it a bit odd that, in its history, there's never been a Chaos gift that made you go "wow, that's certainly from somewhere far, far away".

There's also the fact that, going really far back, most of the Chaos Gods are created by human activity, rather than weird-ass Xenos or just certain emotions based on mortals, regardless of species. This has changed somewhat (when maybe GW realized that it didn't make any sense) but not so much that we can safely say that Khorne is a universal concept, for example.

I think ( don't get upset if I am wrong) he doesn't know that ther are void spaces 10 to 1000 times the size of our galaxy Between each Galaxy. A galaxy is not a universe and in a universe...there are billions of Galaxies.

So the warp is a small dimension compare to the universe and is only a plane that is connected to this galaxy and not the universe...afaik

The point being made that some aren't grasping is that the warp is not a physical location and cannot be quantified in the same way. It is not 'local' and it is not 'milky way sized'. Wherever we go, there is warp. Wherever we've been, there is warp. Wherever we could concievably go, there is warp.

It's another dimension. Where you access it literally does not matter.

 Shidank wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

As noted previously ITT, the Warp is affected by, colored by and made up of psycho-emotive energy that reflects and reacts to the general vibe of mortal creatures in a given area. When the galaxy is relatively calm, the Warp is relatively calm. When it's not, it isn't.

Get too far outside the realm of where mortal creatures dwell, and there's nothing to create, feed or reflect to/from that energy. Would also explain why, as fethed up as Chaos mutations can be, they're still recognizable as something that exists in the mortal plane, even if you don't normally see them in quite that configuration or colors. We don't see, for example, examples of wholly extra-galactic beings as Chaos mutants. Heck, even the Tyranids could be recognizably local in origin (they're insectoid, but not truly alien). This is, perhaps, caused by the limited creative scope of the franchise, but I find it a bit odd that, in its history, there's never been a Chaos gift that made you go "wow, that's certainly from somewhere far, far away".

There's also the fact that, going really far back, most of the Chaos Gods are created by human activity, rather than weird-ass Xenos or just certain emotions based on mortals, regardless of species. This has changed somewhat (when maybe GW realized that it didn't make any sense) but not so much that we can safely say that Khorne is a universal concept, for example.

I think ( don't get upset if I am wrong) he doesn't know that ther are void spaces 10 to 1000 times the size of our galaxy Between each Galaxy. A galaxy is not a universe and in a universe...there are billions of Galaxies.

So the warp is a small dimension compare to the universe and is only a plane that is connected to this galaxy and not the universe...afaik

The point being made that some aren't grasping is that the warp is not a physical location and cannot be quantified in the same way. It is not 'local' and it is not 'milky way sized'. Wherever we go, there is warp. Wherever we've been, there is warp. Wherever we could concievably go, there is warp.

It's another dimension. Where you access it literally does not matter.

This is an unexplored area of conversation that GW didn't even thought of. So I have to look at it from the astro physics POV.

If our Milky way galaxy has warp, other galaxy might have it too. Just like there are life in MW galaxy... other galaxy might have life too. However, the life in this galaxy has no connection or contact with the other life in the other galaxy because of the space between or the void. Now the warp entities in MW galaxy and the other galaxy have no contact among each because we have never heard GW mention of them. So we must assume that they have no contact among each other or if they exist or not.

Nobody knows anything about if we can travel in the void... this is all just theory.

One thing for sure is that ... so fare we only have one being from another galaxy and that is the tyranids. Everything els in 40K are being from MW galaxy.

I understand that Warp is in another dimension.. but that dimension only has access to MW galaxy that we know off. So we can't say that you can use the warp and arrive at Andromeda galaxy or other galaxy because it has never been stated.

Again, if Chaos is that powerful and the Warp is the whole universe and the gods are the gods of the universe.. not just a galaxy.. .what the heck is the point of 40K. Necrons and all other factions are just flies to the gods of the universe. Our galaxy is just a sweat drop for the gods.

This is where the size of the universe is so great that I don't believe that Chaos gods are the gods of the universe because all the fluff have suggested that they are linked to this galaxy and this galaxy only.

 david choe wrote:


This is an unexplored area of conversation that GW didn't even thought of. So I have to look at it from the astro physics POV.

If our Milky way galaxy has warp, other galaxy might have it too. Just like there are life in MW galaxy... other galaxy might have life too. However, the life in this galaxy has no connection or contact with the other life in the other galaxy because of the space between or the voice. Now the warp entities in MW galaxy and the other galaxy have no contact among each because we have never heard GW mention of them. So we must assume that they have no contact among each other or if they exist or not.

Nobody knows anything about if we can travel in the void... this is all just theory.

One thing for sure is that ... so fare we only have one being from another galaxy and that is the tyranids. Everything els in 40K are being from MW galaxy.

I understand that Warp is in another dimension.. but that dimension only has access to MW galaxy that we know off. So we can't say that you can use the warp and arrive at Andromeda galaxy or other galaxy because it has never been stated.

Again, if Chaos is that powerful and the Warp is the whole universe and the gods are the gods of the universe.. not just a galaxy.. .what the heck is the point of 40K. Necrons and all other factions are just flies to the gods of the universe. Our galaxy is just a sweat drop for the gods.

This is where the size of the universe is so great that I don't believe that Chaos gods are the gods of the universe because all the fluff have suggested that they are linked to this galaxy and this galaxy only.

Sorry, let me try again. As another dimenion, the warp is not anchored to any one spot or any one size. There can be 'local' influences (local being more of a metaphysical term that is relative to the gestalt beliefs of the inhabited galaxy) that affects the warp depending on where it is accessed. Only with the death of every sentient thing would the currents of the warp die off and the dimension cease to be. With the loss of the milky way's gestalt, the chaos gods we know would starve and die.

The point of 40k to me is to acknowledge the warp in the way the Emperor had. It's dangerous and mankind can be saved from it. That said, it is a fever dream of madness and emotion that reflects back all of our worst qualities. To join it is to give in. It's literally the greatest temptation. That's how our galaxy has made the warp to be in relation to every physical point where we can access it. Resisting this pull until we can let go of all the things the warp holds over us, and that we therefore hold over ourselves, is the point of 40k.

If we did make it into another galaxy and there was life, our warp would not be theirs. That said, they would occupy the same dimension. Depending on the number of humans that made the trip safely, our presence and repeated dips into the warp for travel could actually cause issues for that galaxy in the form of interrupted communications and travel. It is in this way that the Tyranid could have formed the Shadow on the Warp. Were we to have a Tyranid-like way of assimilating sentient life and organic matter of that galaxy, I could reasonably assume that our warp and theirs would eventually harmonize and the destructive nature of the Shadow would cease to exist in that particular galaxy where the gestalts of two galaxy's sentients' have come to resonate.

Ok, I think I've given up discussing how vast the Warp is, but we didn't try to say that the Chaos Gods are all powerful, because they can't simply enter the materium. So even though they're extreme/endless in power in the Warp, the materium is a completely other matter and that's why Necrons and Tyranid or anything else haven't been squashed and tossed aside already.

Chaospling, David and I are discussing just this. You're welcome to catch up and join in.

 Shidank wrote:
Chaospling, David and I are discussing just this. You're welcome to catch up and join in.

Not quite sure why you're this formal...? But thank you hehe.

The Warp has existed forever, it's just sentient life which gives it form like Chaos Gods. If there was sentient life in another galaxy they too would be forming the Warp but the Warp are the same in any galaxy - I thought we agreed that the Warp hadn't any exact physical connection with the materium?

The Shadow of the Warp is just extreme communication through the Warp because of the gestalt of Tyranid creatures. As opposed to the Tyranid, the Orks, Humans and even Daemons are individual minds and so will not form the gestalt and/or single kind of consciousness the Hive mind has.

It doesn't look like you're disagreeing, just asking for clarification. We theorized that the explanation for relative localization of warp entities and storms is because of the gestalt of this galaxy's life actually making every access point go to a "relatively close" proximity within the warp. What was proposed regarding the shadow is that it's the gestalt interaction with the warp of another galaxy that has not assimilated the relation this galaxy has to one particular localization of the warp.

The Tyranid literally brought their neck of the woods to us and are learning how to build houses more to our standard.

 Shidank wrote:

 david choe wrote:


This is an unexplored area of conversation that GW didn't even thought of. So I have to look at it from the astro physics POV.

If our Milky way galaxy has warp, other galaxy might have it too. Just like there are life in MW galaxy... other galaxy might have life too. However, the life in this galaxy has no connection or contact with the other life in the other galaxy because of the space between or the voice. Now the warp entities in MW galaxy and the other galaxy have no contact among each because we have never heard GW mention of them. So we must assume that they have no contact among each other or if they exist or not.

Nobody knows anything about if we can travel in the void... this is all just theory.

One thing for sure is that ... so fare we only have one being from another galaxy and that is the tyranids. Everything els in 40K are being from MW galaxy.

I understand that Warp is in another dimension.. but that dimension only has access to MW galaxy that we know off. So we can't say that you can use the warp and arrive at Andromeda galaxy or other galaxy because it has never been stated.

Again, if Chaos is that powerful and the Warp is the whole universe and the gods are the gods of the universe.. not just a galaxy.. .what the heck is the point of 40K. Necrons and all other factions are just flies to the gods of the universe. Our galaxy is just a sweat drop for the gods.

This is where the size of the universe is so great that I don't believe that Chaos gods are the gods of the universe because all the fluff have suggested that they are linked to this galaxy and this galaxy only.

Sorry, let me try again. As another dimenion, the warp is not anchored to any one spot or any one size. There can be 'local' influences (local being more of a metaphysical term that is relative to the gestalt beliefs of the inhabited galaxy) that affects the warp depending on where it is accessed. Only with the death of every sentient thing would the currents of the warp die off and the dimension cease to be. With the loss of the milky way's gestalt, the chaos gods we know would starve and die.

The point of 40k to me is to acknowledge the warp in the way the Emperor had. It's dangerous and mankind can be saved from it. That said, it is a fever dream of madness and emotion that reflects back all of our worst qualities. To join it is to give in. It's literally the greatest temptation. That's how our galaxy has made the warp to be in relation to every physical point where we can access it. Resisting this pull until we can let go of all the things the warp holds over us, and that we therefore hold over ourselves, is the point of 40k.

If we did make it into another galaxy and there was life, our warp would not be theirs. That said, they would occupy the same dimension. Depending on the number of humans that made the trip safely, our presence and repeated dips into the warp for travel could actually cause issues for that galaxy in the form of interrupted communications and travel. It is in this way that the Tyranid could have formed the Shadow on the Warp. Were we to have a Tyranid-like way of assimilating sentient life and organic matter of that galaxy, I could reasonably assume that our warp and theirs would eventually harmonize and the destructive nature of the Shadow would cease to exist in that particular galaxy where the gestalts of two galaxy's sentients' have come to resonate.

I do see your point and I do agree that the warp is a like a shadow of the material plane. The entities in the warp are made up of emotions based on life in the material plane. So I think you are suggesting that where ever there is life, then the warp entities are around like a shadow always following. However, the MW warp entities belongs to being of MW creatures.

We don't know if Galaxy X have a race say.... space Skavens and Galaxy X will also have warp space. The Warp entities or Warp gods of Skaven emotions are not connected with MW chaos gods. Even if Skaven have rage emotions of Khorne like... that vortrex of Khorne will not be connected with Skaven Rage god.

If human enter Galaxy X and the chaos gods will follow them like shadow... once Chaos gods and Skaven gods meet... they will join together and become one. OR ... if Skaven enter MW galaxy.. their gods will follow them like shadow.. and soon the gods will bond and merge to become one because Rage is Rage.

So yes, the whole universe is big and there are many chaos gods of rage in many galaxies, but they are not aware of each other... and once meet.. they will become one... and since there is no time in the Warp.. the gods have always know each other... but never meet at the same time.

That is how I view the Universe.

So if human dare enough and the gods are willing ... they can travel to the next galaxy by doing small jump. However... in the void...there is a chance that the gods might be bored with the people who are traveling and might killed them all and the warp gods or entities around that area of the void will die alone with the people.

Chaospling wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Chaospling, David and I are discussing just this. You're welcome to catch up and join in.

Not quite sure why you're this formal...? But thank you hehe.

The Warp has existed forever, it's just sentient life which gives it form like Chaos Gods. If there was sentient life in another galaxy they too would be forming the Warp but the Warp are the same in any galaxy - I thought we agreed that the Warp hadn't any exact physical connection with the materium?

The Shadow of the Warp is just extreme communication through the Warp because of the gestalt of Tyranid creatures. As opposed to the Tyranid, the Orks, Humans and even Daemons are individual minds and so will not form the gestalt and/or single kind of consciousness the Hive mind has.

This is all speculation though, in fact even the in-universe explanations of the Shadow in the Warp are presented to us as theories, nobody knows for sure why it happens. The same goes with the warp, we're never explicitly told exactly how it works and most of our information comes from the rationalization that the characters have accepted as being "true".

Orby's right. This is just what we reasoned out as probable from our discussions on intergalactic travel.

I got to my conclusion from the text about the Shadow of the Warp in Tyranid codex - do you come to a completely different conclusion when reading that part?

About the Shadow being "the gestalt interaction with the warp of another galaxy that has not assimilated the relation this galaxy has to one particular localization of the warp": I just view it as interaction between an extreme amount of Tyranid creatures in a relative small area because of the extra need of communication when in a battle. I don't to discuss the possibility of communication between galaxies but did you read that somewhere or did you introduce the idea yourself?

Chaospling wrote:
I got to my conclusion from the text about the Shadow of the Warp in Tyranid codex - do you come to a completely different conclusion when reading that part?

About the Shadow being "the gestalt interaction with the warp of another galaxy that has not assimilated the relation this galaxy has to one particular localization of the warp": I just view it as interaction between an extreme amount of Tyranid creatures in a relative small area because of the extra need of communication when in a battle. I don't to discuss the possibility of communication between galaxies but did you read that somewhere or did you introduce the idea yourself?

I view the codex definition as a secretary doing her best with post-it note cards and half-remembered stories that other people told each other.

Haha nice - you should use that for your signature! Though I quite sure I've read about the Tyranids and the Shadow of the Warp several places and not just the latest codex.

Chaospling wrote:
Haha nice - you should use that for your signature! Though I quite sure I've read about the Tyranids and the Shadow of the Warp several places and not just the latest codex.

I don't think anyone really buys the "it works because GW explained it away as space alien magic" explanation, so it felt better applying some reason that seemed to work.

Some Chaotic Intergalactic activity!

Dead Sky Black Sun wrote:Awful knowledge flooded Uriel as he stared into the portal opened in the fabric of the universe. He saw galaxies of billions upon billions of souls harvested and fed to the Lord of Skulls, the Blood God.
‘Emperor’s mercy,’ wept Uriel as he felt each of these deaths lodge like a splinter in his heart. New life and new purpose had once filled these galaxies, but now all was death, slaughtered to sate the hunger of the Blood God…

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 12 wrote:[Tzeentch] listens to the hopes of every sentient being from every planet in the universe.

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 14 wrote:[Nurgle] is the creator of every infection and epidemic to mhave ever swept the universe.

Animus wrote:
Some Chaotic Intergalactic activity!

Dead Sky Black Sun wrote:Awful knowledge flooded Uriel as he stared into the portal opened in the fabric of the universe. He saw galaxies of billions upon billions of souls harvested and fed to the Lord of Skulls, the Blood God.
‘Emperor’s mercy,’ wept Uriel as he felt each of these deaths lodge like a splinter in his heart. New life and new purpose had once filled these galaxies, but now all was death, slaughtered to sate the hunger of the Blood God…

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 12 wrote:[Tzeentch] listens to the hopes of every sentient being from every planet in the universe.

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 14 wrote:[Nurgle] is the creator of every infection and epidemic to mhave ever swept the universe.

You really think that GW or the writer who wrote that wanted us to literally accepted that? I think it was hyperbolic statement.

 david choe wrote:
@Wyzillia
If the warp extended beyound this galaxy, then how come nobody ever travel beyound this galaxy?

We have no idea what other galaxies are like so how do we know that Chaos are there too?

The warp infinity is infinity with in the warp, but it is finite in our universe. In other words, the 4 gods are in milky way.....then in galaxy x....there are other chaos gods for the xenons of that galaxy. If say...Khorne exist in galaxy x, then that Khorne has no concept or connection of our Khorne in milky way.
If the chaos gods are that powerful that they have power of the billions galaxies....nothing can stop them....milky way would be a drop of sweat to them.... But that is not the case is it.

BTW- there is no such a thing as other universes...if it exist....then it is part of this universe. Everything that exist and will ever exist is part of this universe and that Is it. If you said that universe b is over there...then universe b is part of this universe.

The multiverse can exist, but each universe will never be in contact or reachable...so it is pointless.

Or, we could have Gods of Order over in those other galaxies, as the Old Ones basically created Chaos by creating their war-Psyker-species


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 david choe wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's implied that the Warp is a fairly local thing to the Milky Way. Get much beyond it, into the Void, and the Warp sort of fizzles out into oblivion.

Ok, haven't noticed this being implied. The Void between galaxies or just star systems has no specific physical connection to the Warp, so I don't get your explanation at all.

As noted previously ITT, the Warp is affected by, colored by and made up of psycho-emotive energy that reflects and reacts to the general vibe of mortal creatures in a given area. When the galaxy is relatively calm, the Warp is relatively calm. When it's not, it isn't.

Get too far outside the realm of where mortal creatures dwell, and there's nothing to create, feed or reflect to/from that energy. Would also explain why, as fethed up as Chaos mutations can be, they're still recognizable as something that exists in the mortal plane, even if you don't normally see them in quite that configuration or colors. We don't see, for example, examples of wholly extra-galactic beings as Chaos mutants. Heck, even the Tyranids could be recognizably local in origin (they're insectoid, but not truly alien). This is, perhaps, caused by the limited creative scope of the franchise, but I find it a bit odd that, in its history, there's never been a Chaos gift that made you go "wow, that's certainly from somewhere far, far away".

There's also the fact that, going really far back, most of the Chaos Gods are created by human activity, rather than weird-ass Xenos or just certain emotions based on mortals, regardless of species. This has changed somewhat (when maybe GW realized that it didn't make any sense) but not so much that we can safely say that Khorne is a universal concept, for example.

I think ( don't get upset if I am wrong) he doesn't know that ther are void spaces 10 to 1000 times the size of our galaxy Between each Galaxy. A galaxy is not a universe and in a universe...there are billions of Galaxies.

So the warp is a small dimension compare to the universe and is only a plane that is connected to this galaxy and not the universe...afaik

The point being made that some aren't grasping is that the warp is not a physical location and cannot be quantified in the same way. It is not 'local' and it is not 'milky way sized'. Wherever we go, there is warp. Wherever we've been, there is warp. Wherever we could concievably go, there is warp.

It's another dimension. Where you access it literally does not matter.

This is an unexplored area of conversation that GW didn't even thought of. So I have to look at it from the astro physics POV.

If our Milky way galaxy has warp, other galaxy might have it too. Just like there are life in MW galaxy... other galaxy might have life too. However, the life in this galaxy has no connection or contact with the other life in the other galaxy because of the space between or the void. Now the warp entities in MW galaxy and the other galaxy have no contact among each because we have never heard GW mention of them. So we must assume that they have no contact among each other or if they exist or not.

Nobody knows anything about if we can travel in the void... this is all just theory.

One thing for sure is that ... so fare we only have one being from another galaxy and that is the tyranids. Everything els in 40K are being from MW galaxy.

I understand that Warp is in another dimension.. but that dimension only has access to MW galaxy that we know off. So we can't say that you can use the warp and arrive at Andromeda galaxy or other galaxy because it has never been stated.

Again, if Chaos is that powerful and the Warp is the whole universe and the gods are the gods of the universe.. not just a galaxy.. .what the heck is the point of 40K. Necrons and all other factions are just flies to the gods of the universe. Our galaxy is just a sweat drop for the gods.

This is where the size of the universe is so great that I don't believe that Chaos gods are the gods of the universe because all the fluff have suggested that they are linked to this galaxy and this galaxy only.

Well, tbh, there could be other Gods of Order/Chaos in the corresponding parts of the Warp that keep the Gods of Chaos from the MW out of their domains, and vice versa. We really don't know, and this hasn't been touched on in the lore AT ALL outside of the Hive Mind, which might just be another Warp God in itself.

When ever scifi or fantasy games or geeks have a discussion about intergalactic and the universe, less than 1% understand the concept of what a universe or a galaxy is.

There are MORE stars in the univers than there are all the Grain of sands on earth...by about 10 times. Each star might be a solar system with planets....the universe is a big place.

40k keep things in one galaxy to keep it "simple", so let's not exaggerate and get into universe.

Our galaxy is like one Walmart packed full of sands...and each grain of those sand is a star with solar system. This is what we have to play with...let's don't bring 10 earths full of sands to play with too.

@dusarat217 - you could be right, but we would never know. I think the old ones just say screwed this galaxy...we're out of here and left. I would too....there are other galaxies to play with in the universe.

This is just me thinking out loud....there must be a species of pure good that is ruling a galaxy somewhere out there. Just imagen a species like human....but the specie is united and "good".
They don't rape, kill, steal, cheat, lie, etc... Among each other...that is power. When they build a house...they don't waste resources like locks on doors or fences. Their shopping center just have goods in the shop and a bucket of money by the exit for people to pay and get change. When a species is united like this the amount of resources and energy can be focus on science and exploration. I can see a specie like this becoming a space explorer because they do not need to worry about fighting among themself. Don't get me wrong. They have weapons to hunt or kill animals...but they don't use it on their own specie. I think this is a key to the next stage of evolution.

 david choe wrote:

Animus wrote:
Some Chaotic Intergalactic activity!

Dead Sky Black Sun wrote:Awful knowledge flooded Uriel as he stared into the portal opened in the fabric of the universe. He saw galaxies of billions upon billions of souls harvested and fed to the Lord of Skulls, the Blood God.
‘Emperor’s mercy,’ wept Uriel as he felt each of these deaths lodge like a splinter in his heart. New life and new purpose had once filled these galaxies, but now all was death, slaughtered to sate the hunger of the Blood God…

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 12 wrote:[Tzeentch] listens to the hopes of every sentient being from every planet in the universe.

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 14 wrote:[Nurgle] is the creator of every infection and epidemic to mhave ever swept the universe.

You really think that GW or the writer who wrote that wanted us to literally accepted that?

Yes. Chaos is multiversal and exists with no or with totally different concepts of space and time.

Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

Maybe it was the Emperor himself they were worried about. Nothing to do with the Crusade, but maybe they were scared the Emperor could rise up powerful enough to threaten them, and tried to put paid to that as soon as they could.

ImAGeek wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

Maybe it was the Emperor himself they were worried about. Nothing to do with the Crusade, but maybe they were scared the Emperor could rise up powerful enough to threaten them, and tried to put paid to that as soon as they could.

This fits in quite nicely with my view of the Emperor, what with him orchestrating large portions of the Great Crusade in order to become a God of Order.

Psienesis wrote:Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

The Emperor's Great Crusade would cut them off from an entire universe of souls feeding them power. Losing the Milky Way would be like a city losing one its largest power plant, and being forced to rely on secondary and tertiary sources for power. Or, at least, that's how I interpret it. It could also be that Chaos just likes this galaxy. Or that the Emperor posed a potential threat to them by becoming another God. We really don't know, it's all speculation.

Note: I said losing the Milky Way = losing a universe, because we have heard no mention of the local Chaos Gods being in any other galaxies, and thus this is the only galaxy in our dimension that they have access to.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:

Animus wrote:
Some Chaotic Intergalactic activity!

Dead Sky Black Sun wrote:Awful knowledge flooded Uriel as he stared into the portal opened in the fabric of the universe. He saw galaxies of billions upon billions of souls harvested and fed to the Lord of Skulls, the Blood God.
‘Emperor’s mercy,’ wept Uriel as he felt each of these deaths lodge like a splinter in his heart. New life and new purpose had once filled these galaxies, but now all was death, slaughtered to sate the hunger of the Blood God…

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 12 wrote:[Tzeentch] listens to the hopes of every sentient being from every planet in the universe.

Codex Chaos Daemons, 6e, page 14 wrote:[Nurgle] is the creator of every infection and epidemic to mhave ever swept the universe.

You really think that GW or the writer who wrote that wanted us to literally accepted that?

Yes. Chaos is multiversal and exists with no or with totally different concepts of space and time.

When I watch the road runner and the coyote cartoons and they defined gravity, I do not question the concept of physics to Looney Tunes, I just sit back and enjoy the cartoon. However, if Looney Tune tries to justified to me that Looney Tunes universe has no law of physics and it is actually in the Warp...i would call them out on it that they are "fixing" or trying to justified things.

As I said before...GW and most geeks have no concept of astro physics and they spew pure BS...a writer with a pen can create anything as long as it's target audience understands it and accepted it. This target audience are us geeks, but this geek other hobby is also astro physics...so I know GW are writing BS crap for you and not for me.

The universe is a big place...and in that statement by GW....they have no back up to support that grand statment at all. GW better start explaining why milky way is so important, what other gods are out there in the universe, and what other intergalactic being are out there. And once they do, I would just sit back and enjoy more BS. This is too deep for GW.

What I am saying is Rule of cool is nice, but there are limit to it. A las cannon is a las cannon, but you don't see it blowing up planets because there are limits to what us geeks will put up with. This chaos gods of the universe is my las canon blowing planets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

Maybe it was the Emperor himself they were worried about. Nothing to do with the Crusade, but maybe they were scared the Emperor could rise up powerful enough to threaten them, and tried to put paid to that as soon as they could.

This fits in quite nicely with my view of the Emperor, what with him orchestrating large portions of the Great Crusade in order to become a God of Order.

Psienesis wrote:Then why do they care so much about this one speck of sand? If they're truly universal, the Emperor's Great Crusade is not even a minor irritant, let alone an actual threat.

The Emperor's Great Crusade would cut them off from an entire universe of souls feeding them power. Losing the Milky Way would be like a city losing one its largest power plant, and being forced to rely on secondary and tertiary sources for power. Or, at least, that's how I interpret it. It could also be that Chaos just likes this galaxy. Or that the Emperor posed a potential threat to them by becoming another God. We really don't know, it's all speculation.

Note: I said losing the Milky Way = losing a universe, because we have heard no mention of the local Chaos Gods being in any other galaxies, and thus this is the only galaxy in our dimension that they have access to.

I know a lot of what you said have good points, but good sci fi keeps things to one galaxy. You start to loose audience when we get into universe.

I would hate to see that GW made MIlky Way as the center of the universe, yet ....no other intergalactic being are here to claim it...beside the nids. The whole 40k concepts start to unravel real quick when the balance of power of the gods are universal scale....

We have nothing to support that MW galaxy is the center shinny light of the universe and the gods never ever mentioning that. The gods are new to this material galaxy....let's don't even get in to the age of the universe or galaxy....GW got that out of whack too.

Chaos gods are idiots...in cosmic scale...only idiots can claim a galaxy and no more lol.

 david choe wrote:


Chaos gods are idiots...in cosmic scale...only idiots can claim a galaxy and no more lol.

Which is way I like to think that they are stuck to this galaxy due to the Chaos Gods in the corresponding areas of the Warp to other galaxies preventing them from spreading to other galaxies. Basically, each galaxy has Gods that have their dominion in that galaxy, and prevent other Gods from coming to it from other galaxies.

My interpretation of the warp. The warp has no beginning and end and there is no time, in other words...the four dimensions law of physics doesn't apply to the warp.
The dimensions are length, width , height and time. The 4Ds

A good comparison of the warp is our dream. Dreams have no beginning or end or the 4Ds. Example of my nightmare...
Starts....
I am running in the woods being chase by a zombie...he is very slow...yet...I cant run fast enought...he is walking...but yet caught up to me and attack me. He is eating me alive...and then....I am playing a video games and thinking how to beat that game...then I am back to fighting zombie...my wounds healed and I killed it...then I woke up sweating and scared.

This is typical nightmare that we all have had. That is the warp.
Has the zombie always existed or did it exist that night I start the dream? I think it always had existed....just come to be active in my dream when it was its turn to show up.

How big was the woods I was running in? As big or as small as my dream require...so the scale is infinite.

Can you access my dream? No. If yes, then our mind is connected for a time and the dream world is shared.

This is my warp interpretation.
Our galaxy is like a human mind one person mind. The warp or this warp belongs to Milky Way. Galaxy x has its own version of the warp just like another person mind has his own dreams.

When two galaxy beings with enough emotions that can have enough force to cause the two warps to join..it is like two human minds sharing a dream. The stronger mind will control the dream or the stronger warp gods will control the warp.

Can we use the warp to travel beyound the great void, I don't know. I think we can, if the gods let us.

So each warp is infinite in its own realm just like our dream is limitless and the space in our dream is infinite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 david choe wrote:


Chaos gods are idiots...in cosmic scale...only idiots can claim a galaxy and no more lol.

Which is way I like to think that they are stuck to this galaxy due to the Chaos Gods in the corresponding areas of the Warp to other galaxies preventing them from spreading to other galaxies. Basically, each galaxy has Gods that have their dominion in that galaxy, and prevent other Gods from coming to it from other galaxies.

I think your interpretation is very close to my version.

Who knows...in other galaxies...there could be beings from the material relm that can twist and control the warp and is "invading" the warp or warp killers....a "cleaner" of the material realm.


Yes..the universe is a very big and it is silly to claim that everything (even the warp) are identical as our galaxy and the laws of universe is based on this galaxy.

Well regardless of how you feel about intergalactic Chaos, there's nothing saying they're limited to one galaxy, and other sources put other galaxies in their reach. No one truly comprehends things on that scale, but that's irrelevant in fantasy fiction.
tl;dr dealwiddit

This space Age of Sail. To sail, you need wind. Wind in the warp is supplied by the presence of vast numbers of living things. There are no such things between galaxies. Hence, there is no wind. Hence, your ship won't go anywhere.

Animus wrote:
Well regardless of how you feel about intergalactic Chaos, there's nothing saying they're limited to one galaxy, and other sources put other galaxies in their reach. No one truly comprehends things on that scale, but that's irrelevant in fantasy fiction.
tl;dr dealwiddit

It disagree, I do not see GW mentioning Chaos as intergalactic besides that hyperbolic statement.

I've already read about a God of the universe in three holy books in real life...I escape to this grim dark fiction to meet another grim dark gods of the universe? Ah man...Curse you GW!

 david choe wrote:
It disagree, I do not see GW mentioning Chaos as intergalactic besides that hyperbolic statement.

Why do you assume it's hyperbolic? Given we know Chaos doesn't care much about space and the only thing separating galaxies is space. Then there's Tyranids, they managed to transverse between galaxies, and they do have to account for the massive distance. If they can do it, why not the reality warping Chaos?

 david choe wrote:
I've already read about a God of the universe in three holy books in real life...I escape to this grim dark fiction to meet another grim dark gods of the universe?

Well technically they're Gods of another universe.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:
It disagree, I do not see GW mentioning Chaos as intergalactic besides that hyperbolic statement.

Why do you assume it's hyperbolic? Given we know Chaos doesn't care much about space and the only thing separating galaxies is space. Then there's Tyranids, they managed to transverse between galaxies, and they do have to account for the massive distance. If they can do it, why not the reality warping Chaos?

 david choe wrote:
I've already read about a God of the universe in three holy books in real life...I escape to this grim dark fiction to meet another grim dark gods of the universe?

Well technically they're Gods of another universe.

Because chaos gods are cosmic idiots who do not deserve to ruled the universe. I mean that truthfully. First off, I know they are powerful in this galaxy because they are playing with a stack deck against being from this MW galaxy if you know what I mean. They have so much power, but they are moronic, idiotic, and insane....if any other factions in 40k behave like them...they would have been extinct a long time ago.

Because the universe is a big place...I think there should be other powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe. The MW just haven't encounter them yet...it is like we are a powerful species on earth, but some ant hill in the middle of some forest is untouch by us...because earth is also a big place.

So two reasons why chaos can't be gods of universe.
1 - they are idiots and insane
2 - they do not seems powerful enough to fight other powerful entities that should be out there.

The truth is...chaos gods are just cosmic idiots that is the prey for the predator gods that will find our Milky Way galaxy one day and will help us mortals defeat those warp idiots. The Emperor heard of these cosmic gods and he was trying to reach out to them...chaos stopped him.

The Chaos gods aren't idiots, that seems a weird word to use for them. We have no comprehension of the way they 'think', we can barely comprehend what they are. The stuff you said about predator gods coming to our galaxy, that's all conjecture right? A theory...

 david choe wrote:
Because chaos gods are cosmic idiots who do not deserve to ruled the universe. I mean that truthfully. First off, I know they are powerful in this galaxy because they are playing with a stack deck against being from this MW galaxy if you know what I mean. They have so much power, but they are moronic, idiotic, and insane....if any other factions in 40k behave like them...they would have been extinct a long time ago.

Because the universe is a big place...I think there should be other powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe. The MW just haven't encounter them yet...it is like we are a powerful species on earth, but some ant hill in the middle of some forest is untouch by us...because earth is also a big place.

So two reasons why chaos can't be gods of universe.
1 - they are idiots and insane
2 - they do not seems powerful enough to fight other powerful entities that should be out there.

The truth is...chaos gods are just cosmic idiots that is the prey for the predator gods that will find our Milky Way galaxy one day and will help us mortals defeat those warp idiots. The Emperor heard of these cosmic gods and he was trying to reach out to them...chaos stopped him.

So you're saying that canon can't be canon because of your fan fiction. Disappointing.
It's not even very well thought out to be honest. Chaos can't be intergalactic because you want there to be other things more powerful than Chaos?
Even if there were, why would that limit Chaos to a single galaxy when they don't care about physical space?

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Because chaos gods are cosmic idiots who do not deserve to ruled the universe. I mean that truthfully. First off, I know they are powerful in this galaxy because they are playing with a stack deck against being from this MW galaxy if you know what I mean. They have so much power, but they are moronic, idiotic, and insane....if any other factions in 40k behave like them...they would have been extinct a long time ago.

Because the universe is a big place...I think there should be other powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe. The MW just haven't encounter them yet...it is like we are a powerful species on earth, but some ant hill in the middle of some forest is untouch by us...because earth is also a big place.

So two reasons why chaos can't be gods of universe.
1 - they are idiots and insane
2 - they do not seems powerful enough to fight other powerful entities that should be out there.

The truth is...chaos gods are just cosmic idiots that is the prey for the predator gods that will find our Milky Way galaxy one day and will help us mortals defeat those warp idiots. The Emperor heard of these cosmic gods and he was trying to reach out to them...chaos stopped him.

So you're saying that canon can't be canon because of your fan fiction. Disappointing.
It's not even very well thought out to be honest. Chaos can't be intergalactic because you want there to be other things more powerful than Chaos?
Even if there were, why would that limit Chaos to a single galaxy when they don't care about physical space?

Ok...yes lol.

Hyperbolic statment is something you take with a grain of salt.... You know that the true power of chaos is some hack writer with a computer right?

I told you chaos are idiots...you think something as stupid as chaos gods can ruled the universe? I mean....you really think that this is it....this is all we have in this universe are the 4 idiots.

You keep saying that they don't care about material space....which is false...they have a hard time in our material realm.

So I will give you that chaos MIGHT have more than one or two galaxies...that is still small potatoes in the scale of the universe.

The nids are proof that out there ....there are other things that can fight Chaos....I'll tell you this...it would be foolish for anybody to bet on chaos or any of 40k factions as the master of the universe. You would have less than a billion to one chance of winning.

I am just playing the math here...

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

Chaos is a galactic powerhouse...ok, no argument there.

You are now claiming...they are intergalactic and even universal just because of two or three sentences that GW put out, the magnatute of chaos power level based on those hyperbolic statements went up a billion times. You tell me if this wasn't a hyperbolic? You start to have no common sense and becoming a chaos fanboy that easy? You can't take it literally. The story could be an illusion or a propaganda.

Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Stfu...I have no clue what you are talking about. I am talking about dimension in material universe is guided by 4Ds and warp do not have that. That is it. Seriously...you were the one making stupid claim about multiple universe...I remember you have no concept of the size of a galaxy or the universe.

Man...oh let me type face Palm or banging my head to show how I am so much smarter than you....yeah...oh face palm again...now I am smarter than you times two....

Grow up man.

 david choe wrote:
I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

But you are rejecting it, I'm just telling you what the lore says. I'm making up nothing.

 david choe wrote:
Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..

Yes, it's fiction we're discussing. All Warhammer 40k is fiction. Why are you here if not to discuss that fiction?

 david choe wrote:
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

I think you should have some actual substance to your points.

 david choe wrote:
Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

Okay, again, so what if they're idiots? Them being idiots or not is not relevant to their abilities. And Chaos is based far more on Michael Moorcock's Elric novels than anything Cthulhu.

 david choe wrote:
My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.

Math as a concept is all well and good, it's your math that I question. Trying to "math" out universal beings is beyond any humans knowledge, and I don't feel like you're the next great genius to push us there.

 david choe wrote:

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

Chaos is a galactic powerhouse...ok, no argument there.

You are now claiming...they are intergalactic and even universal just because of two or three sentences that GW put out, the magnatute of chaos power level based on those hyperbolic statements went up a billion times. You tell me if this wasn't a hyperbolic? You start to have no common sense and becoming a chaos fanboy that easy? You can't take it literally. The story could be an illusion or a propaganda.

Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.

Why do you assume that it is propaganda? The problem with saying that some fluff is propaganda is that what is propaganda? Either all fluff is true, or none is. There is nothing stating that any out-of-universe fluff is propaganda, so it then becomes a matter of personal opinion what extracts are actually true or false. Which results in a complete loss of coherent canon.

Actually, I don't recall the Lovecraftian Gods as being idiotic in any way. Incomprehensible yes, but never stupid. Never call a god stupid: they are the godly one, not you.

Plus the Chaos Gods cannot directly influence the material realm: they must rely of Warp Rifts to get any kind of physical presence in our Universe. Plus, Tzeentch does as Tzeentch pleases.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Stfu...I have no clue what you are talking about. I am talking about dimension in material universe is guided by 4Ds and warp do not have that. That is it. Seriously...you were the one making stupid claim about multiple universe...I remember you have no concept of the size of a galaxy or the universe.

Man...oh let me type face Palm or banging my head to show how I am so much smarter than you....yeah...oh face palm again...now I am smarter than you times two....

Grow up man.

Hm. Mature.
Extra universes could exist. Or not. We cannot tell.

Also, Wyzilla's post was remarkably coherent. It made a lot of sense. I really cannot see how you could misinterpret that.

@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@SgT Smudge
1 - as I mentioned before.. in universe propaganda or illusion. The truth is GW sucks at math and sizes of universe... they have no clue when they make stupid comment like that.

2 - I remember some books about each of the Cuthulu gods.. and there were a few describe as idiots. It doesn't matter what Cuthulu is, lets talk about Chaos gods. Yes IMHO, they are idiots because they act like idiots.

3 . I will let Wzyilla defend and explain.. because I have no idea what he is talking about. Headcannon? It seems like he agreed with me, yet tries to take my position apart or making gak up about my position.

The Chaos gods are not idiots. We have no comprehension of how they 'think'. I don't get why you keep saying they're idiots. Capricious, selfish, evil, lots of words you could use for them, idiot is a strange choice.

And there's been no personal insults against you. I would cool off a bit or the thread will end up being closed.

 david choe wrote:
@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.

But it's not in any of the in universe portions of the book. If you dismiss this then you dismiss all fluff. You can equally say Inquisitors and Cultists are just propaganda.
I'm talking about your "math." Yes, there's lots of stars, so many as to be beyond comprehension. But that doesn't make "math" that tells us about other entities in the universe such as " powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe."
Again, again, them being idiots or not is not relevant. The wind does not need a brain to blow just as Chaos does not need to be clever to do as Chaos does and ignore material rules of space and time.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:
@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.

But it's not in any of the in universe portions of the book. If you dismiss this then you dismiss all fluff. You can equally say Inquisitors and Cultists are just propaganda.
I'm talking about your "math." Yes, there's lots of stars, so many as to be beyond comprehension. But that doesn't make "math" that tells us about other entities in the universe such as " powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe."
Again, again, them being idiots or not is not relevant. The wind does not need a brain to blow just as Chaos does not need to be clever to do as Chaos does and ignore material rules of space and time.

1 - I haven't read that portion. I will just assume that what you are trying to say is that GW wrote an out of universe description of Chaos power such as "Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe". This statement is what I am saying is GW is making a hyperbolic statement. It is clear from where I stand and I have giving you reasons why this is. 1 - GW have no idea that the universe is a big place and this is just writer saying that Nurgle created all the plagues in our Milky Way galaxy but use the wrong word or they just don't get what a universe really is. 2 - Even this out of universe statement .... can be interpreted that we are reading this writing portion from a Cultist or some in universe guy. This part is what GW have stated to avoid pitfall like what I have just stated. You want to buy into this Nurgle have created all the plague in every billions of galaxies besides Milky way is your choice. I have understand your position and you have understand my. Agree to disagree.

2. Yes my math tells me that because the average of one galaxy (MW galaxy) has all these factions and even the Nids are from another galaxy... I would bet because of laws of average that there are other beings in other galaxies. Out of those beings in the billions of galaxies... they are much more powerful than Chaos... thus.. Chaos can not be the all and be all powerful gods of the universe. Not a fanboy crap I am making up.. just laws of average. Did GW mentioned that Chaos gods ruled the universe? No. But you made that claim that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe. I am not in disagreement of the quote.. I am disagreeing with the GW logic here.

3. Agree to disagree about Chaos being idiots. But really ... you think they are smart or incomprehensible? It is not important... because mentally challenge people are also incomprehensible and they are in there own world sometimes. We are here in the material world... Chaos are trying to control or take over this material universe... but they don't even try to understand or is incomprehensible to them. This is a plan that is set to fail. You can never rule or beat something if you don't understand it. This is why Chaos is giving away stupid chaos blessing... they don't know or they don't care. These are stupid quality for a leader to have. They will fail. Because of Chaos being idiots.. I think other warp gods from other galaxy can beat them because they are intelligent. Oh.. lets bless my agents with good blessing...
Chaos shows no quality of a sustainable winning strategy of intergalactic scale... so yes.. .the best they can do is win this galaxy.

 david choe wrote:

1 - I haven't read that portion. I will just assume that what you are trying to say is that GW wrote an out of universe description of Chaos power such as "Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe". This statement is what I am saying is GW is making a hyperbolic statement. It is clear from where I stand and I have giving you reasons why this is. 1 - GW have no idea that the universe is a big place and this is just writer saying that Nurgle created all the plagues in our Milky Way galaxy but use the wrong word or they just don't get what a universe really is. 2 - Even this out of universe statement .... can be interpreted that we are reading this writing portion from a Cultist or some in universe guy. This part is what GW have stated to avoid pitfall like what I have just stated. You want to buy into this Nurgle have created all the plague in every billions of galaxies besides Milky way is your choice. I have understand your position and you have understand my. Agree to disagree.

No, this isn't really an agree to disagree type deal. If you toss this fluff you remove all structure from all fluff discussions. If this is propaganda or hyperbole then so is everything else.

 david choe wrote:

2. Yes my math tells me that because the average of one galaxy (MW galaxy) has all these factions and even the Nids are from another galaxy... I would bet because of laws of average that there are other beings in other galaxies. Out of those beings in the billions of galaxies... they are much more powerful than Chaos... thus.. Chaos can not be the all and be all powerful gods of the universe. Not a fanboy crap I am making up.. just laws of average. Did GW mentioned that Chaos gods ruled the universe? No. But you made that claim that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe. I am not in disagreement of the quote.. I am disagreeing with the GW logic here.

But this is fanboy crap you're making up. Law of averages tells us nothing about how powerful beings in other galaxies are, not in real life and certainly not in fiction. It's outright stated that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful beings in their own universe. Why do you keeps talking about Chaos Gods ruling the universe? No one is talking about Chaos Gods ruling the universe except you. They do not rule the universe, but that doesn't mean they are limited to just the one galaxy.
How can you disagree with GW's logic when there's no logic, just a statement made in fiction?

 david choe wrote:

3. Agree to disagree about Chaos being idiots. But really ... you think they are smart or incomprehensible? It is not important... because mentally challenge people are also incomprehensible and they are in there own world sometimes. We are here in the material world... Chaos are trying to control or take over this material universe... but they don't even try to understand or is incomprehensible to them. This is a plan that is set to fail. You can never rule or beat something if you don't understand it. This is why Chaos is giving away stupid chaos blessing... they don't know or they don't care. These are stupid quality for a leader to have. They will fail. Because of Chaos being idiots.. I think other warp gods from other galaxy can beat them because they are intelligent. Oh.. lets bless my agents with good blessing...
Chaos shows no quality of a sustainable winning strategy of intergalactic scale... so yes.. .the best they can do is win this galaxy.

No no no. No agree to disagree, I have neither agreed or disagreed with you on whether the Chaos Gods are idiots. I have said it doesn't matter if they are or not because it doesn't change their power or their nature.

@Animus

1 - Yes. that is what GW have stated. Let me ask you this... do you believe that because it is written in book X... that Nurgle created all the plague in the universe... it must be true. You tell me yes or no. There are some BS that people say... feth GW , they don't know jack. Like some Black Lib. story about Dark Eldars dying in droves because of Space Marines..I think it was Brotherhood of the snakes. This is me. I Call out on GW .. .this is too much....Nurgle can't make all the plagues in the universe. YES, you told me universe not WARP. So NO, I choose to dismiss this stupid claim from GW that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe.

You are getting mixed up in this discussion. Universe is not the Warp and the Warp is not the universe.

2. Yeah this part is fanboy, but it is a fanboy for everybody ... are you not seeing the logic behind this? WTF? By you holding the statement that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe... this tells me that You are clamming that Nurgle is around the whole universe in all the galaxies that have life that has been infected by plagues... it was Nurgle's design. This said that Nurgle is all powerful. If Nurgle is this powerful.. then his 3 brothers are just as too right(because all 4 are close in power level)? This means that this statement is saying that Chaos is around the universe. Do you get it. You are saying Universe... not Warp. The statement is not Nurgle created all the plagues in the warp...but UNIVERSE. There is only one universe... and the other is call the Warp. Don't change meaning now.

This statement is what this debate is about... CHOAS IS EVERY WHERE IN THE UNIVERSE - LIKE NURGLE CREATED ALL THE PLAGUE IN THE UNIVERS is BS or not tells us everything here. I told you it was hyperbolic and you disagree and claims that this is fact and true.. so you must accepted that Nurgle is everywhere in the universe. Hence.. they are the gods of the universe. Which I keep saying is BS. They can not be.

3. Then what is the point.. go ahead and talk about any subject you want, but don't reply to me. I mean.. I said they are idiots and you are saying maybe they are or are not... but it doesn't change their power. So what? I didn't say their intellect effects their power? There intellect effected them in making plans to conquer the galaxy and the universe. So yeah.. the three common attributes for power level is. Intellect, raw power, and leadership. I think Chaos lack two important attributes... which make them a gigantic beast or lions like monster... a stupid dragon waiting to be slay.

 david choe wrote:
@Animus

1 - Yes. that is what GW have stated. Let me ask you this... do you believe that because it is written in book X... that Nurgle created all the plague in the universe... it must be true. You tell me yes or no. There are some BS that people say... feth GW , they don't know jack. Like some Black Lib. story about Dark Eldars dying in droves because of Space Marines..I think it was Brotherhood of the snakes. This is me. I Call out on GW .. .this is too much....Nurgle can't make all the plagues in the universe. YES, you told me universe not WARP. So NO, I choose to dismiss this stupid claim from GW that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe.

You are getting mixed up in this discussion. Universe is not the Warp and the Warp is not the universe.

Yes, I believe it is true, just like I believe that Harry Potter wears glasses. In fiction, what the author says goes. I'm not getting mixed up at all. GW says Nurgle created all Plagues in the universe.

 david choe wrote:
2. Yeah this part is fanboy, but it is a fanboy for everybody ... are you not seeing the logic behind this? WTF? By you holding the statement that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe... this tells me that You are clamming that Nurgle is around the whole universe in all the galaxies that have life that has been infected by plagues... it was Nurgle's design. This said that Nurgle is all powerful. If Nurgle is this powerful.. then his 3 brothers are just as too right(because all 4 are close in power level)? This means that this statement is saying that Chaos is around the universe. Do you get it. You are saying Universe... not Warp. The statement is not Nurgle created all the plagues in the warp...but UNIVERSE. There is only one universe... and the other is call the Warp. Don't change meaning now.

Yes, Chaos can reach the whole universe, they can ignore physical space, a step in the warp could take you across the universe and back in time. There is no reason for them to be stuck in a single galaxy whatsoever. This does not make them all powerful.

 david choe wrote:
This statement is what this debate is about... CHOAS IS EVERY WHERE IN THE UNIVERSE - LIKE NURGLE CREATED ALL THE PLAGUE IN THE UNIVERS is BS or not tells us everything here. I told you it was hyperbolic and you disagree and claims that this is fact and true.. so you must accepted that Nurgle is everywhere in the universe. Hence.. they are the gods of the universe. Which I keep saying is BS. They can not be.

What do you mean exactly by Gods of the Universe? If you mean Gods who affect points across the entire universe then I agree. Distance doesn't matter to them, no matter how many zeroes you stick on the end. If you say this is hyperbolic, then you may as well say all fluff is hyperbolic. Because nothing says the Gods are stuck in this one galaxy, while stuff does say they have intergalactic reach

 david choe wrote:
3. Then what is the point.. go ahead and talk about any subject you want, but don't reply to me. I mean.. I said they are idiots and you are saying maybe they are or are not... but it doesn't change their power. So what? I didn't say their intellect effects their power? There intellect effected them in making plans to conquer the galaxy and the universe. So yeah.. the three common attributes for power level is. Intellect, raw power, and leadership. I think Chaos lack two important attributes... which make them a gigantic beast or lions like monster... a stupid dragon waiting to be slay.

The point is you keeps saying they're idiots, despite that not mattering to the rest of our discussion at all. It'd be like if I decided to say they don't look pretty in pink, it's not important. It doesn't matter if they're capable of conquering the universe or not. It doesn't matter if there are beings more powerful than them or not. What's important here is whether they are capable of acting in other galaxies, because this thread is about intergalactic travel. I've got fluff saying they are, you don't have any fluff saying they're not so far as I can see.

@Animus


"Yes, I believe it is true, just like I believe that Harry Potter wears glasses. In fiction, what the author says goes. I'm not getting mixed up at all. GW says Nurgle created all Plagues in the universe. "

Great, agree to disagree then. I just LOL at this idiotic statement made by GW and people actually would buy into it.



"Yes, Chaos can reach the whole universe, they can ignore physical space, a step in the warp could take you across the universe and back in time. There is no reason for them to be stuck in a single galaxy whatsoever. This does not make them all powerful. "

Again, if they have this kind of power... they are all powerful. Nurgle is a part of every plague in the universe. All chaos gods are messing with mortal in the whole universe scale. This is where I suggest that if they are around the whole universe... there must be others being that can beat them because Chaos are idiots with power.


"What do you mean exactly by Gods of the Universe? If you mean Gods who affect points across the entire universe then I agree. Distance doesn't matter to them, no matter how many zeroes you stick on the end. If you say this is hyperbolic, then you may as well say all fluff is hyperbolic. Because nothing says the Gods are stuck in this one galaxy, while stuff does say they have intergalactic reach"

It means that they are the only gods in this Universe. Do you understand the level they went up for me and most of everybody here. At first Chaos just a power house in this galaxy. Now they just got bumped by a billion times because they must have that many galaxies with life in their reach. The concept is simple.



"The point is you keeps saying they're idiots, despite that not mattering to the rest of our discussion at all. It'd be like if I decided to say they don't look pretty in pink, it's not important. It doesn't matter if they're capable of conquering the universe or not. It doesn't matter if there are beings more powerful than them or not. What's important here is whether they are capable of acting in other galaxies, because this thread is about intergalactic travel. I've got fluff saying they are, you don't have any fluff saying they're not so far as I can see."

 david choe wrote:

Great, agree to disagree then. I just LOL at this idiotic statement made by GW and people actually would buy into it.

It's not about "buying into it" there's no deception or trickery here. It's about whether you care about knowing the canon or not.

 david choe wrote:

Again, if they have this kind of power... they are all powerful. Nurgle is a part of every plague in the universe. All chaos gods are messing with mortal in the whole universe scale. This is where I suggest that if they are around the whole universe... there must be others being that can beat them because Chaos are idiots with power.

Well sorry, that's not the definition of all powerful. You're objectively wrong on that account. Why must there be others that can beat them? I'd wager you're smarter than a tornado, but you'd probably lose if you picked a fight. But regardless, their power level compared to whatever entities you can imagine isn't really important to this discussion. This is about if they can exert their will in other galaxies, which we've seen they can.

 david choe wrote:

It means that they are the only gods in this Universe. Do you understand the level they went up for me and most of everybody here. At first Chaos just a power house in this galaxy. Now they just got bumped by a billion times because they must have that many galaxies with life in their reach. The concept is simple.

Well we know that they're not the only gods in the universe. So I guess they're not that.

 david choe wrote:

First. I claim that Chaos or warp of each galaxy is stuck to each galaxy because they need living things. So the space between each galaxy is too far.. so those spaces are void... no warp and no life and no travel. NOW - I will leave it at that. I don't claim there are other warp out there.. or life.. but lets don't bring it up. But now I have too because you brought this quote.

Nurgle created all the plagues in the Universe. I already explained about this hyperbolic statement. But this statement claims that Nurgle is now a god of the universe not just a god of a galaxy. BIG leap by about one BILLION times.

See, you're saying it's a hyperbolic statement, but you're not backing that up with anything. I could say a Space Marines only has one heart and that the whole two hearts thing is just hyperbole.

 david choe wrote:

All this comes back to ... because GW stated in that quote that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe ... we have two options
1 - You, choose to believe that quote... so Warp is everywhere and Nurgle can travel to anywhere ... so human can too, if Nurgle allows it.
2 - Me. GW don't know jack about the size of the Universe and they have just jump into a pitfall. I consider this a hybolic statement by an uneducated writer about astrophysics. No Nurgle is still stuck in this galaxy because there are no living things in the void and Nurgle was created by being from this galaxy. All chaos gods were created by this galaxy. So they can't just decide to pop to other galaxy because some hack writer wrote a one liner.

Why do you believe GW don't know about the size of the universe? Everyone knows that the universe is incomprehensibly huge. This isn't hidden arcane knowledge.
There's no living things in the void between galaxies. There's no living things in the void between stars. There's no living things in the void between atoms either.
We're told Chaos does not play by the material universe's concepts of space and time however. Why should it care for scale? A human could not more accurately picture the distance between two stars systems than the distance between two galaxies. Yet Chaos can exist in this star space.
So space, however vast, is not an obstacle to it.

@Animus...

Seriously... if you do not understand 1,000,000,000 x 1 Milky Way... that is how much Chaos just got more galaxy because of that one liner.
your 1 heart vs. 2 is a joke.

That is the point about this debate...billions vs. one writer.

We take this to court you win. We take this to Science department ... you loose.

The game is always based about this galaxy.. never the universe.. then that one or two lines.. was use as Universe... you became a fanboy of holding this as proof. If there were a court of law.. you might win. If there were a poll most gamers would call GW BS again. Stupid fluff. GW are ignorant gamers geek who don't know crap about astrophysics...This is beyond rule of cool, this is rule of stupid. Chaos is already cool as is.. GW do not need to improve their power by a billion galaxies.

It is stupid and childish ... you can go with it. I've made enough statement about this. I won't try to convince you about how stupid and idiotic GW claims is and it destroyed other fluff and create many loop holes in the back stories. GW can hardly keep their story straight in one Galaxy and now they got the whole universe.... You want to carry this mantel, then go ahead. Shout it out loud when you enter GW stores with pride... Chaos gods is everywhere in the Universe and Nurgle created all the plagues in every galaxies in the universe.. oooooo how powerful is Nurgle now.

Because there was life before Chaos is the main point. The Great Four didn't exist in the Warp during the War in Heaven, for example. The Necrons, even in their old lore, didn't deal with daemons in that era, and it wasn't until the Enslavers showed up (which are more Warp-dwelling Xeno than actual daemon) that we had a glimpse of something residing in the Warp.

The Chaos Gods are "idiots" in the sense that they are not complete beings. They are amalgamations of themes, and encompass the thoughts and emotions of those themes. Outside of the spheres, however, they have nothing, and do not have the sort of sentience that mortals enjoy that can permit them to learn and embody these things outside of their spheres. So Khorne, for example, is the god of bloodshed, warfare and violence. When it comes to those sorts of things, his mastery is unchallenged.

He knows FA about baking a cake. Or about passion, perversion and vice. He knows FA about diseases, plagues and blights. He knows FA about magic, secrets, plots and plans. Those are the realms of other gods, of things outside of Khorne's control and spheres of influence.

The Warp is also infinitely mutable and malleable. It can be shaped (by those with the ability) into any form or function imaginable (this is, after all, what Psykers do). The sentient beings of other galaxies may have shaped their local Warp into something entirely inimical to the Great Four of the Milky Way. For all we know, the Warp in another galaxy might be ruled by the Gods of Order, and is a static, unchanging place. This could be accomplished simply by having a powerful religion old enough to have created such Gods in the first place, and a successful version of a Great Crusade that crushed all opposition to the Gods of Order.

The idea of there being one Warp, ruled by these same four Gods in all of them, also falls apart in the face of the entire history of 40K. There's so many galaxies in the universe that what happens in any one of them is entirely irrelevant. If the Gods of Chaos were so powerful, then beings like Malice/Malal wouldn't really exist, or be so comparatively powerless. They'd be on a scale akin to "as gods go, they're weak, but can still destroy an entire species with a mere thought"... but they're not. The Great Four, specifically, focus too much of their attention on the Milky Way for it to be just one part of their vast dominion, and concern themselves far too much with the actions of one particularly clever ape for those apes to be nothing more than fly-specks in the grand scheme of things.

 david choe wrote:
@Animus...

Seriously... if you do not understand 1,000,000,000 x 1 Milky Way... that is how much Chaos just got more galaxy because of that one liner.
your 1 heart vs. 2 is a joke.

It's to demonstrate a point. Once you start plugging your ears to anything you don't like, you won't end up with much.
"The Imperium is a million worlds!"
"No it's not! It's maybe a half a world, the rest is just hyperbolic propaganda. A million worlds just doesn't make sense in terms of science after all."

 david choe wrote:
That is the point about this debate...billions vs. one writer.

We take this to court you win. We take this to Science department ... you loose.

But it's not billions versus one writer. It's some writers and some fans vs some fans. No science department would say I lose, because we're not dealing with science here, we're dealing with fiction, with gods and demons, with magic parallel universes.

 david choe wrote:
The game is always based about this galaxy.. never the universe.. then that one or two lines.. was use as Universe... you became a fanboy of holding this as proof. If there were a court of law.. you might win. If there were a poll most gamers would call GW BS again. Stupid fluff. GW are ignorant gamers geek who don't know crap about astrophysics...This is beyond rule of cool, this is rule of stupid. Chaos is already cool as is.. GW do not need to improve their power by a billion galaxies.

How do you know they're ignorant? Do you know how large a galaxy is? It's vast beyond what our minds can conceive, yet it's fine to have the galaxy as a battleground? The game hasn't even explored a fraction of the galaxy, should we say it's only maybe a few hundred worlds? We've got extragalactic threats in the Tyranids. We've got extrauniversal threats in the forms of daemons and other warpspawn. We've been beyond the bounds of the galaxy before in the webway and in the warp.

 david choe wrote:
It is stupid and childish ... you can go with it. I've made enough statement about this. I won't try to convince you about how stupid and idiotic GW claims is and it destroyed other fluff and create many loop holes in the back stories. GW can hardly keep their story straight in one Galaxy and now they got the whole universe.... You want to carry this mantel, then go ahead. Shout it out loud when you enter GW stores with pride... Chaos gods is everywhere in the Universe and Nurgle created all the plagues in every galaxies in the universe.. oooooo how powerful is Nurgle now.

Stupid? Childish? Perhaps something you just don't like.

@Animus...

It's to demonstrate a point. Once you start plugging your ears to anything you don't like, you won't end up with much.
"The Imperium is a million worlds!"
"No it's not! It's maybe a half a world, the rest is just hyperbolic propaganda. A million worlds just doesn't make sense in terms of science after all."

LOL... that is you. a million worlds are tinny in a galaxy of 500 billions worlds. I do acepted that because GW made sense out of it. The scale is not impossible.

You are the one who must have flunk math... you think millions is a good example of billions?



"But it's not billions versus one writer. It's some writers and some fans vs some fans. No science department would say I lose, because we're not dealing with science here, we're dealing with fiction, with gods and demons, with magic parallel universes."

Are you being naive?



"How do you know they're ignorant? Do you know how large a galaxy is? It's vast beyond what our minds can conceive, yet it's fine to have the galaxy as a battleground? The game hasn't even explored a fraction of the galaxy, should we say it's only maybe a few hundred worlds? We've got extragalactic threats in the Tyranids. We've got extrauniversal threats in the forms of daemons and other warpspawn. We've been beyond the bounds of the galaxy before in the webway and in the warp."

Don't make me say somebody here might be ignorant too. I know how large a galaxy is. We have measured the milky way galaxy. Many light years... but I can look it up. I know sciences and it seems like everything you are talking about are things that you don't know or think that we don't have an answer and we do ... OMG.. I am talking to a creationist....

The game explore this Milky Way Galaxy and the dimension that is connected to this Galaxy. Not the Universe.


"Stupid? Childish? Perhaps something you just don't like".

So, just to confirm... We all understand that this is a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers, right?


Please see Dakka's rule #1 and dial the antagonism meter down to 'Reasonable Discourse'

What GW says, goes. It is canon. You can love it, you can hate it. But it exists. If the only way it can make sense to you is by creating a false reality, then do so. If GW says Nurgle is responsible for every disease in the galaxy, guess what? Nurgle was responsible for every disease in the galaxy. Whatever GW says is truth in the 40k reality. Accept this, and we may get somewhere. This is not believing the BS GW tells us, this is obeying the rules and laws of their setting. Science cannot explain this: this is fiction, pure and simple. A game.

 david choe wrote:

LOL... that is you. a million worlds are tinny in a galaxy of 500 billions worlds. I do excepted that because GW made sense out of it. The scale is not impossible.

You are the one who must have flunk math... you think millions is a good example of billions?

It was another example to demonstrate that you can fluctuate the scale all you want, it doesn't matter because it remains true.

 david choe wrote:
Are you being naive?

No, are you? This is a non-question.

 david choe wrote:
Don't make me say somebody here might be ignorant too. I know how large a galaxy is. We have measured the milky way galaxy. Many light years... but I can look it up. I know sciences and it seems like everything you are talking about are things that you don't know or think that we don't have an answer and we do ... OMG.. I am talking to a creationist....

Oh, we can assign a number to the galaxy, we can measure it, but you cannot comprehend how large that is. The human brain just isn't built for it. You can probably mentally picture ten objects, a hundred objects, a thousand objects. Can you picture a million in your mind? A billion? You can perhaps imagine a mile, but can you imagine the actual scale of a light year? I doubt it.

 david choe wrote:
The game explore this Milky Way Galaxy and the dimension that is connected to this Galaxy. Not the Universe.

It explores bits of the milky way and bits of two alternate dimensions.

 david choe wrote:
You win buddy.

I thought you said I won last time too, but you keep coming.