So it seems like the top tier tournament army in the UK is 4 Iron Priests with 4 cyberwolves each attached to either: Dark Angels bikes (for scout etc), St Celestine (for hit and run), or White Scars comand squad (for Hit and Run and scout) or scout bikers (for Scout). I've been to three tournaments on the trot. All with ETC players at. All won by Wolfstar of one sort or another, and with some other Wolfstar in the top 3.

How best to counter this army? Flyrants are an obvious army. But what other ways does this list go down? Critical seems to be: tanking 2+/3++ with FnP on the unit and 16 minimum ablative wounds on the dogs.

I've been looking at Vindicatora a bit for it, especially BA fast ones. Chews through the dogs quickly and gives you a 1/3 chance of ID. 3 of them is just under 400 pts without siege shields. Another option is crush them under weight of dice, something like a few squads of firewarriors with an Ethereal, etc, forcing them to roll enough dice that the 1s catch up with them eventually.

The problem with any of these shooting solutions is that the smart wolf player will just break up the death star so you can only get at a couple of priests a turn and the rest will still get into combat, which means you have to have durability in your army, either through numbers, high toughness, or invulns with Eternal Warrior. Tzeentch daemons with a few stacked Cursed Earths could be good too, re-rollable 2++ is definitely some staying power.

They do go through stuff pretty fast. The iron priests split off and get five attacks on the charge each - ws5 str 10 ap 1...

I was toying with vindicators earlier. or necron pylons with the Death Ray. Doomsday Arcs.

Its a brutal, brutal army. And with so many mobile independent characters, very strong on scoring at the end of the game too.

It's a very strong unit, I've played vs it a few times now each time with a slightly different loadout. Strongest was 3 iron priests 5twc and a wolf lord. It hurt but luckily I had loads of strength 10 that day. Luck the draw

I tend to play BA or Ig or both together. As other people have said fast vindicators are very good but if the sw list is balanced they will normally pod meltas near your s10 tanks so you need multiples. Ig wise manticores work OK but the ap4 hurts a little but least you have range.

My favourite although sometimes a mad tactic is meeting them head on, mephiston with iron arm endurance, force and forwarning ideally with a group of ss th terminators works really well. Once you have them held charge in some dc and some dc dreads and you will see some carnage

If all else fails take three vultures with punishers and fire 60 S5 tl shots each turn. Weight of fire wins

Hm. Well maybe those tactics work for Blood Angels (I personally think terminators are a terrible idea - the Iron Priests are str 10 ap 1 and have five attacks on the charge each - counter attack too, I believe and all the cyberwolves are rending). But I run Necrons, Eldar and Tau. So we are not really assault armies. And the ones I am seeing at tournaments are much more optimised. They usually have a lot of buffs - FNP, Endurance and a tonne of stormshields.

Be clear. I'm not talking about "balanced lists" with podding meltas. I am talking about the various builds of the horrific wolf deathstar that is chewing through all comers...

20 flayed ones.

i played against a CRAZY wolf star with Hit And Run... Necron durability simply outlasted it. I dont think there is any other army that can put up a fight against it.

Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Weight of fire and kill the support (e.g. allied Psykers) first.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Flayed One Pack - Same stats as a Necron Warrior. Same save, same Strength, toughness,initiative, and point cost.
They have 4 S4 AP5 attacks in combat with Shred (each claw counts as a separate weapon).
USR:
Fear
Reanimation Protocols
Deep Strike
Infiltrate

Mathhammer:
100 attacks on the charge:
Hitting on 5s, against T5 Armor 2
33 hits --- 18.5 wounds due to shred ---3 wounds taken

So yeah, not a lot of wounds but in a decurion, they have 4+RP so all in a good fight.

Naaris wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Flayed One Pack - Same stats as a Necron Warrior. Same save, same Strength, toughness,initiative, and point cost.
They have 4 S4 AP5 attacks in combat with Shred (each claw counts as a separate weapon).
USR:
Fear
Reanimation Protocols
Deep Strike
Infiltrate

Mathhammer:
100 attacks on the charge:
Hitting on 5s, against T5 Armor 2
33 hits --- 18.5 wounds due to shred ---3 wounds taken

So yeah, not a lot of wounds but in a decurion, they have 4+RP so all in a good fight.

Why are the Flayed Ones hitting on 5s? They should hit on 4s, wound on 5s. So 50 hits, 27.7 wounds, 4.6 wounds taken.

I would not recommend using Flayed Ones to fight Wolfstar, I'd tie them up with something like Wraiths or Scarabs and then work on the rest of the board.

What mission format are these tournaments? Unless they require a really strong ground presence, then I can see the FMC spam that is popular elsewhere giving it problems. Doesn't seem like theres much room for AA in a list like that. That being said, I'm gonna assume you need to do more than late game score/contest in whatever format these Wolfstars are steam rolling since that seems too obvious. Still, flyrants seem good against something like this since they have the mobility to bypass 2+ tanks and get to the Apothecary/Libby that is providing FNP. I can see how a good player would be able to mitigate this with 4 Iron Priests though.

Could you give us a little bit more specifics about what's supporting these Iron Priests? For the White Scars, I'm assuming its a command squad with Khan, an apothecary, and possibly grav guns and/or more storm shields?

You mentioned endurance, but I don't see a list like that being able to pack enough psykers to reliably get endurance (unless Loth's hiding out somewhere) much less cast it against any army with a midding psychic presence.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

truth

 astro_nomicon wrote:
What mission format are these tournaments? Unless they require a really strong ground presence, then I can see the FMC spam that is popular elsewhere giving it problems. Doesn't seem like theres much room for AA in a list like that. That being said, I'm gonna assume you need to do more than late game score/contest in whatever format these Wolfstars are steam rolling since that seems too obvious. Still, flyrants seem good against something like this since they have the mobility to bypass 2+ tanks and get to the Apothecary/Libby that is providing FNP. I can see how a good player would be able to mitigate this with 4 Iron Priests though.

Could you give us a little bit more specifics about what's supporting these Iron Priests? For the White Scars, I'm assuming its a command squad with Khan, an apothecary, and possibly grav guns and/or more storm shields?

You mentioned endurance, but I don't see a list like that being able to pack enough psykers to reliably get endurance (unless Loth's hiding out somewhere) much less cast it against any army with a midding psychic presence.

2 Rune Priests on bikes? Apothecary from command squad (WS, DA). It the sheer weight of Attacks and wounds for LoS shenanigans though. For instance:

4 Iron Priests, 16 cyber wolves, 2 rune priests on bikes, Khan, command squad, (apothecary)

Or, Ravenwing command squad with apothecary and pfg.

Or Celestine and join them to a unit of TWC with storm shields and Thunder hammers.

Celestine and White Scars have hit and run. So tarpitting not a great idea. TBH they will chew through wraiths shockingly quickly.

RW has hit and run too. It basically boils down to if they feel they need an eternal warrior and grav or plasma talons plus MSU melta with a few more points to invest into the star. Well that and access to telepathy which DAs bring.

I haven't seen the sisters version but I can imagine it includes lots of melta.

Personally I would try to beat it by spreading objectives out and beating them on the mission. This would require eliminating support elements.
In this type of list iirc your gonna see upwards of 6 fast scouting bike/AB units plus maybe a smattering of other stuff if DA variety, slightly less individual elements if WS. You should be able to wipe those off the board and control the mission with obsec.

Flyers/FMCs as stated will be largely immune to this list but they don't really do anything to counter it themselves.

The list is really good at board control and can split off any number of different elements to deal with cowering obsec.

This is true. I guess I we should be asking what type of missions you play over there. If its turn based scoring that won't make as much of a difference. If your still stuck in 6th with EW missions then thats another matter.

Anyway the usual strategy is to combat deathstars with extreme MSU, unless your star is just better. Basically what I said above but put into strategy not just the tactics. You could also hit it with a concussive weapon to deny H&R although with your particular armies you don't have access to grav. Also if they are taking a cmd squad as the core there aren't going to be many storm shields around so they will get shot up pretty easily by things like farshiit bomb or draigo cents.

So how many points are these priests? I'm sure everyone wouldn't mind having a couple chapter master-esque characters floating around (presumably with 12" move and 2/3 wounds, correct?) but with 4 of them I think that you fall victim to "ignore the deathstar and kill the rest of the army" syndrome, forcing them to make their points back in area denial/actually killing things, which is more difficult than you think if the unit is upwards of 600 points or so.

The other thing that I think people are underestimating is this: while you can divorce the unit, each guy is on his own. So this is really not super viable early on when you should still have firepower to deal with a lone dude. Later on, it is helpful - I do the same thing with the D Lord from my Wraithstar - but then tarpitting for even a turn or two is really effective. 5 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds....not exactly going to be a guaranteed sweep, even with no invuln.

Exactly. The star is upwards of 1k, usually closer to 1300. Each priest hits like a train with 4 x s10 ap1 but hes 2w no invuln accompanied by 3-4 x t5 cyberwolves each. The only models with invulns are the four 1w cmd members and possibly the wolf HQs. I love the concept but its manageable if your on the same level.

1300 points is nuts. I could bring An'ggrath for those kind of points. Mathammer that!

And by "those kind of points", I mean I could bring An'ggrath AND Be'Lakor, giving An'ggrath invis each turn and STILL being less points. Goodness

In its defence, each priest in the star can detach with his 4 wolves and form a separate unit that puts out 5 WS5 S10ap1 and 16 WS4 S4 attacks on the charge, each costing 165 Points. Their selling point is that you can have a single character tank for them, or share FNP from the same source. If the unit they attach to has Hit&Run they can also use the rule at the end of the opponents turn to slingshot the whole unit into enemy lines, then split it up.

Don't get me wrong - it's good. I'm just saying it's hardly the end of the world and that there are ways around it. My personal favorite - Tervigon tarpit with babies for days. Even if it probably won't sustain for long since statistically, the tervigon poops out in 100% of its games on turn 1

Lychguard with shields and orikan would hold them up.

Fragile wrote:
Lychguard with shields and orikan would hold them up.

Unless it's built with Hit & Run, in which case it WANTS to be tied up by such a unit until the end of its opponents assault phase.

for what its worth ironpriests i think get a 6++ from their armor.

Sounds like Doomsday Arks would absolutely ruin it. Huge unit that takes up most of their army and is a good target for large blasts. Especially ones that ID and ignore FNP. If they split up they are going to lose their invuln tanks and can be shot to pieces.

Wait, what are the saves on this Wolfstar again?

Thx.

The last three tournaments I have attended and am talking about have been:

1 maelstrom tournament (won by ETC player using wolves built around white scar bikers)

1 eternal war tournament (won by ETC player using wolves built around TWC with Celestine brought in as an ally for Hit and Run - this blob was MASSIVE)

1 eternal war primary with modified maelstrom secondary tournament (won by ETC player using Dark Angels command squad with many attached Iron Priests and wolves)

In the top three at each even was TWC blob with marine allies for chap master, or Iron Priest blob joining WS command squad).

The main point is this: the top tournament list in the UK currently is an assault based army built around Wolves. Other than taking specific units, what are the approaches that really give you a chance of winning against this list. Should general list building be informed by this shift in the meta?

I don't see spamming str 10 as being something that any army can do reliably (with the dubious exception of necron pylon star) and tarpitting wont work because most of these builds have hit and run and are very good at killing anything with weight of dice.

Where are you getting this from? I kmow you are on about joul humes list. I helped him design his new one and it is certainly not winning all the uk tournaments. Perhaps local 3 gane tourneys yes but thats it. Not taking discredit from joel his a solid player but you make out that the uk is being overrun with wolfstar....well its not. Cally there wasnt a wolfstar near the tip tables. Table 1 last game was myself with Tau and james with necrons. I dont recall a large tournement where wolves won it so calm this hysterical ranting lol!

The unit is solid in combat but all you do is shoot the feth out of it. Either that or fly around it. Daemons eldar and tau all dk this well. Daemons are the biggest threat to them and daemons ha e a huge presence in the scene. 9 hornets can crush all those fancy 2 plus saves. Dont forget UK tourneys rule twc as str 9 not 10.

Honestly without FNP the wolf star is kinda meh. Just shoot it, limit its ability to multi assault, and play to objectives. Use directional shooting to get around its armor and go from there.

KillswitchUK wrote:
Where are you getting this from? I kmow you are on about joul humes list. I helped him design his new one and it is certainly not winning all the uk tournaments. Perhaps local 3 gane tourneys yes but thats it. Not taking discredit from joel his a solid player but you make out that the uk is being overrun with wolfstar....well its not. Cally there wasnt a wolfstar near the tip tables. Table 1 last game was myself with Tau and james with necrons. I dont recall a large tournement where wolves won it so calm this hysterical ranting lol!

The unit is solid in combat but all you do is shoot the feth out of it. Either that or fly around it. Daemons eldar and tau all dk this well. Daemons are the biggest threat to them and daemons ha e a huge presence in the scene. 9 hornets can crush all those fancy 2 plus saves. Dont forget UK tourneys rule twc as str 9 not 10.

Joel. Yep. (Well done helping him withthe list - it's a doozy) And Mike Collins won Battlefield Birmingham two weeks ago with his Wolfstar (different, possibly stronger build) also Norwich LazBlast was won by Andrew Humphris.

And yes. I'm painting up a second squadron of hornets to help deal with this (though I'd love to come up with a non Forgeworld solution).

During my brief time playing 40k most of the power builds have been based around shooting loads and loads and where a Deathstar has been involved it has been built around durability rather than crushing assault power. These pesky mutts go through your backlines.

What it's making me think about is that, yes: shooting is great, but mobility and deployment shenanigans with your shooty units are incredibly inportant against lists like this. I haven't beaten a decent Wolfstar yet (I've beaten TWC, but not these combined up FNP builds backed up with allied comboing. I've put two units of broadsides and a unit of hornets and three riptides into it for two turns and ALMOST killed it.but the. They are all stuck in a corner. And that was a version that did not have Scout! Anyway. I think you're right: lots of shooting, but mobile and/or outflanking seems like a good idea...

Centurian stars that are powered up will put a serious dent in that unit. Also just like any opponent that build a massive super unit, many objective secured units beats this with skilled generalship.

Um. No. Cent star not great against actually. The unit is average armour save 4+ due to all the wolves. And then tanking on a Stormshield probably with FNP. All of those tournament winners I'm talking about beat Centurions either podding or with Draigo and chums.

Anyway. Take X unit isn't really tactical advice. What's the knack with te good generalship?

Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Bring a blob of guards, conscripts and priests. Tarpit them all game. Have another 800+ points spent elsewhere.

Bloodthirsty vikings? Riding on enormous wolves? Send in the next wave, i say!

Low ap is best when they only get 3++ saves. Irontides with 2 shot fusion blasters are good for shooting then jumping away. Grav cents that are 20 to 24 inches away should get 2 roynds of shooting which hurt them a lot.

KillswitchUK wrote:
Low ap is best when they only get 3++ saves. Irontides with 2 shot fusion blasters are good for shooting then jumping away. Grav cents that are 20 to 24 inches away should get 2 roynds of shooting which hurt them a lot.

TWC more 12" and ignore difficult terrain like bikes and have Fleet. They will catch Centurions at 20". Only at 24" will it get tricky.

Personally, hosing them down with high S shots is the way to go. TWC of all kinds fall to massed Serpent fire, Broadside Missile spam, Warp Spiders and pretty much everything that has high frequency shooting with at least S5.

dark_red wrote:
It's a very strong unit, I've played vs it a few times now each time with a slightly different loadout. Strongest was 3 iron priests 5twc and a wolf lord. It hurt but luckily I had loads of strength 10 that day. Luck the draw

I tend to play BA or Ig or both together. As other people have said fast vindicators are very good but if the sw list is balanced they will normally pod meltas near your s10 tanks so you need multiples. Ig wise manticores work OK but the ap4 hurts a little but least you have range.

My favourite although sometimes a mad tactic is meeting them head on, mephiston with iron arm endurance, force and forwarning ideally with a group of ss th terminators works really well. Once you have them held charge in some dc and some dc dreads and you will see some carnage

If all else fails take three vultures with punishers and fire 60 S5 tl shots each turn. Weight of fire wins

Manticores have a minimum range and are not permitted to fire within that minimum which means that Scout likely means you cannot even fire the Manticores once!

they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

wtnind wrote:

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

Didnt they do away with minimum range in 7th? along with pinning (WTF)

It sounds like a tough cookie for sure.

It seems the best way to deal with them is to go for the juggular and straight D weapon them from range and hope for the best.

Otherwise getting inside combat with them with an even more insane star though the H&R is a big annoyance.

 Desubot wrote:

wtnind wrote:

dark_red wrote:
they can fire inside the 24" min range but always scatter. On a big pack of twc I found this doesn't really matte. when I have run 1 it usually gets a few kills

Manticores cannot direct fire. They have a special rule preventing it, which means minimum absolute range of 24".

Didnt they do away with minimum range in 7th? along with pinning (WTF)

It sounds like a tough cookie for sure.

It seems the best way to deal with them is to go for the juggular and straight D weapon them from range and hope for the best.

Otherwise getting inside combat with them with an even more insane star though the H&R is a big annoyance.

They did not do away with it, but rather changed it around so that you can only direct fire within your minimum range. Which requires you to have Line of Sight, or in the manticore's case, is prohibited.

dominuschao wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

Lots of good points. The things that are better about this than Beastpack:
lots of str 10 Attacks. Think it's 5 each on the charge from the iron priests. So 20. WS 5 T 5. Plus all the wolves and runs priests.

Tougher. T 5. Better saves. No it doesn't have unit wide invulnerables. It has some, which are better than demon saves or Farseer saves and need to be placed appropriately based on the enemy and it has multiple 2+ armour saves (whilst keeping a majority 4+ vs gravs).

More fast units that can split off to score. Possibly seven. And they're all beastly!

If you are going to assume that you get Invisibility off on your cent star I will get Endurance off on the Wolfstar. Anyway. Yes. Centstar with Draigo, a kitted out GK Librarian and Tiggy and five cents is a powerful build. And if you are a good player, I'm sure you can do well with it against this list. But I saw wolfstar go through that list at a tournament last week. Correction. It was Loth, not Tiggy. And That wolfstar army was still fitting in two sicarans and a drop pod full of centurions too.

Instead of low AP weapons (that are usually low shots) why not just high Str & high number of shots?

Like lots of Multi-Las / HB Chimeras, Punishers, Splinter Cannons, Burst Cannons, etc.

Just force them to take a hundred saves.

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

Ad Lance is super overrated. Iron Priests smash Knights. And all those ablative wounds! You need lucky sixes. As I said, if you are shooting with cents, you probably get one turn before your cents get ate. Lynx would hurt it. It's designed to go through a wave serpent spam army though.

Fair enough on adlance it was a poor example. Cents your off base on. Two rounds min isn't hard to pull off just by shooting the front off after which they still aren't guaranteed anything due to gate. If they do reach combat against an invisible unit packing initiative order ID weapons it's still not a great match for what's left and they got 1 phase to make it count. They can't splinter off either because individual elements can't handle opposing stars. Grav also allows speed bump units to be effective by reducing init to 1 for h&r tests.
And again where's the storm shields? I'm seeing max 4 cmd models and the wolf hq (I've seen dual wgbl) if they want fnp, one more if they forego scout. That's not enough to protect the unit and the unit needs scout for reasons above. That star runs 1150 min and easily reaching 1300+ if going with TWC based no fnp.

It's a cool concept but it's not the first. It's a meq remake of the beast pack only more killy but without unit wide invulns, fortune/invis and susceptible to grav. Beast pack was better IMO because it cost half as much.

Lots of good points. The things that are better about this than Beastpack:
lots of str 10 Attacks. Think it's 5 each on the charge from the iron priests. So 20. WS 5 T 5. Plus all the wolves and runs priests.

Tougher. T 5. Better saves. No it doesn't have unit wide invulnerables. It has some, which are better than demon saves or Farseer saves and need to be placed appropriately based on the enemy and it has multiple 2+ armour saves (whilst keeping a majority 4+ vs gravs).

More fast units that can split off to score. Possibly seven. And they're all beastly!

If you are going to assume that you get Invisibility off on your cent star I will get Endurance off on the Wolfstar. Anyway. Yes. Centstar with Draigo, a kitted out GK Librarian and Tiggy and five cents is a powerful build. And if you are a good player, I'm sure you can do well with it against this list. But I saw wolfstar go through that list at a tournament last week. Correction. It was Loth, not Tiggy. And That wolfstar army was still fitting in two sicarans and a drop pod full of centurions too.

While the success of the power isn't guaranteed the access is. Not so for endurance plus the warp charge difference. Meh anyway I like the list although I would gravitate a little more towards msu support in this case.

Have you seen such an army go up against a full gun battery like ig or ia13 wyvern/artie spam or even orks can throw down? Massed barrage with a smattering of low ap will shred that unit pretty handily, especially protected by 4++ or 4+ fnp blobs or counter assaulting mobs.

No. Been considering the 12-15 broadside unlike for a while now. On a friend's recommendation. I think that would be problematic for this. Especially with counterfire and supporting fire combo.

I haven't played against a fully kitted cent star for a bit. (just luck of the draw) - do you think they are problematic in games where there is a tonne of terrain?

They are. They can move around without much care but getting to them becomes harder. Both sides benefit from cover but they can pull perfect timing. I rarely play on terrain lite boards so I dint really have a baseline for that.

dominuschao wrote:
Where are all the storm shields coming from? Do they put them on one wound command models?
It doesn't get much better an answer than twin linked concussive grav from invisible gating cents though.

Landing pad lynx with WS spam, or adlance should both do serious damage to it. Green tide can do the same strategy equal or better.

Barrage will also be good here if you can get it in any volume.. grot bomms orbital bomms thudd guns wyverns etc.

It's cool too hear a combat oriented star is doing well honestly. Thing is it's got no guns, little support, little too no psych. It basically just eats fire while advancing.

When I played against it it had support in 5 drop pods.


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 koooaei wrote:
Bring a blob of guards, conscripts and priests. Tarpit them all game. Have another 800+ points spent elsewhere.

Bloodthirsty vikings? Riding on enormous wolves? Send in the next wave, i say!

You cannot Tarpit it if they have hit and run... which they almost always will, at least that's is the focus of this thread.

The two ways iv been beaten and have beaten twc lists is two ways, mass fire or s10.

Don't get why people are saying low ap is good vs a unit with ss on most of not all models. I was beaten last night by a guard and gk player who had a funny list, he had two Lots of 2 russ punishers and 2 vultures vultures. Weight of fire destroyed me me. Didn't help he had a couple of rounds fire 2 wyvern. Hammer and anvil cost me big time time.
Second way iv used manticores or get mephiston th terminators with a gk lib casting hammer hand into combat. You won't always win but will kill a decent amount

Your talking about a different build. The one being discussed has few shields but fnp.

So I'm curious ... does anyone have the lists that recently won in the UK? I've seen a centurion squad in a wolfwing list but not a centstar ... just three cents as an almost late addition ... I also would be curious as to what people believe to be the common iteration of the build. I've seen wolfwing played with Canis, WGBL and RPs joining fen wolves as the star and the T-Wolves seperate to the rest ...
so 2x 10 Fen wolves as troops, 3x T-woldf squads as backup. No FNP or hit and run on the squad.

So how you beat the star really depends on the rest of the list. A player around here uses an IK in his list always. So if you are thinking - hmm ... I want to go after a star which is 10 fen wolves, six cyberwolves and characters ... you still need to deal with the IK and three squads of T-Wolves ...

Ik would be a good idea imo.

Take a paladin and blast it with battlecannons as it advances, get rid of as many shields as you can, then get stuck in. If (when) you die, you stand a good chance of crippling the squad in the explosion.

Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

Can = Likely. Most things are theoretically possible, but part of the game is weighing the odds and going with what is likely.

Sometimes it doesnt work out and the knight rolls three D stomps. But you cant bank on that, you have to play the probability game(notice I did not say odds)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


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And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks.

For reference: Space wolf characters are initially S4, doubled to s8 and then add +1 for thunderwofl (so s9). Thunderwolf calvary are base s5 doubled to s10. It doesn't really matter much, except if you have toughness 5 guys and they don't have rad grenades.

Would it be possible to get a more detailed description of the supporting elements of the lists, or the lists themselves that are winning?

I've seen white scar lists take the champions detachment for one character and 2 priests with wolves. I've seen lists with smaller stars backed by knight titan(s). A list backed by centurions, or bikers, or fliers, or knights, or drop pod spam would be handled differently.

Two rune priests - telepathy to try to get invisibility or biomancy for iron arm - would radically change what might work if they manage to roll the power they need (far from guaranteed), and at that level (4+d6) you might expect to have enough dice to deny their buffs.

Broadside s7 ap4 shooting would be very painful for this list, as would volume of fire from wave serpents and the like. Wyvreens and volume ordnance, especially anything that lets you pick off the apothecary would really put a dent in the survivability of the unit. If you can maneuver your firing arks it's going to be very tricky for them to always have the right armour save in the right position at which point you can probably start picking them off. With scout they're likely charging you second turn.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


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And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

That someone was me and if you read all the OPs comments you'd know his problems stem from a bike command squad based star (ws/rw), not twc based. This build can only access shields on 1 wound cmd members outside of the wolf hq (if not using rp's) and possibly the allied hq (if not using khan/sammael/libbys).I also stated that above. There's basically 2 types both use attached priests + cyber wolves. We're discussing the fnp cmd squad type although the other is good, probably better IMO. Of course someone could include multiple hq's from both detachments but then the star is pushing 1500 pts.

dominuschao wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


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And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

That someone was me and if you read all the OPs comments you'd know his problems stem from a bike command squad based star (ws/rw), not twc based. This build can only access shields on 1 wound cmd members outside of the wolf hq (if not using rp's) and possibly the allied hq (if not using khan/sammael/libbys).I also stated that above. There's basically 2 types both use attached priests + cyber wolves. We're discussing the fnp cmd squad type although the other is good, probably better IMO. Of course someone could include multiple hq's from both detachments but then the star is pushing 1500 pts.

I see now, I just re-read it and notice my mistake.
I think it depends on how you build the Hqs some can be hella cheap and work well with Mounted lists

Editing weird double post

Sometimes it doesnt work out and the knight rolls three D stomps. But you cant bank on that, you have to play the probability game(notice I did not say odds)

I'm not talking about stomps. Read my comment again.

When the knight dies it drops the massive apoc blast which is very likely to hit most, if not all, of the star, with a strong likelihood of being str D/10 and ignoring 3+ saves.

On a good day the explosion alone may very well make the knight's points back vs a wolf star lol.

It sounds like a good star. Hit and run combined with the ability to split off 4 wolves and a hq is a real strong point.

Do wolves drive it down to majority t4?

On the defensive it sounds like wolves just die to ap2 and hq tank regular hits with 2+ and fnp. The only issue I see is it trying to deal with a reroll able invo.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It sounds like a good star. Hit and run combined with the ability to split off 4 wolves and a hq is a real strong point.

Do wolves drive it down to majority t4?

On the defensive it sounds like wolves just die to ap2 and hq tank regular hits with 2+ and fnp. The only issue I see is it trying to deal with a reroll able invo.

Cyberwolves have been FAQ'd to T5 as they're described in the profiles summary.

Dominate psychic power with a LD debuff should work in theory, I hadn't had the chance to try it yet.

Since theres some confusion on whats being discussed lets clarify. I'm sure theres plenty of ways to do it but the basic idea of each type of 'star' is to make a large durable unit of toughness 5 models (cyberwolves were faq'd to t5) that can be fractured into multiple units when needed. So to bring this out of the abstract a little more heres a few ways to build this thing. The exact equipment loadout and unit sizes will vary but the general idea is the same so just assume the builds below are examples. All include allies with SW coming from CoF to keep compulsory costs down. The preferred allies will be white scars or ravenwing, both due to conferring hit and run and scout.

-Basic TWC based star-
(The core of the star is thunderwolf cavalry.)

SW character(s)
wg battle leader- twm, ss, pf, 2 fen wolves- 156 (could be multiples likely at the expense of iron priests and/or TWC models)

4 x iron priests- twm, 4 cyber wolves each- 660.

TWC
6 TWC, 6 shields, 2 pf- 380 (plenty of ways to build this including unit size).

allied/CAD IC- khan and/or smashf*cker if C:SM. Khan for scout, SF for tanking. Either one confers hit and run. khan- 150.

This star is more expensive base running around 1350+ with 6 twc, 1 wgbl, 4 tw priests and khan (+18 wolves). Can be reduced in cost but the impact on performance is greater here. The above has essentially 6 individual elements worth splitting and a total of 30 models, 28 of which are t5, and 7 storm shields.

Can be built with ravenwing and sammael instead which allows the army to access more MSU bike elements for troops.

However you buld it the TWC based star has potential for more high strength attacks, more storm shields and on 2-3 wound models, but only armour saves for the fodder and the units base cost is higher.



-Bike command squad based star-
(the core of the star is biker command squad, NOT twc)

SW character(s)
wg battle leader- twm, ss, pf, 2 fen wolves- 156 (could be multiples likely at the expense of iron priests or possibly a few cyberwolves)

4 x iron priests- twm, 4 cyber wolves each- 660.

allied/CAD IC- khan and/or smashf*cker if C:SM. Khan for scout SF for tanking. Either one confers hit and run.

Bike cmd
5 cmd- bikes, apoth- 150 (could add storm shields or grav which wouldn't be used until later due to run moves. Dont add both).

This star is less expensive base running around 1100+ with 5 cmd, 1 wgbl, 4 tw priests and khan (+18 wolves). Can be reduced or increased in cost easier. The above also has 6 individual elements worth splitting and a total of 29 models, 27 of which are t5, and only 1 storm shield (5 if you equip 4 cmd models too). It doesn't have quite the potential for hitting power or durability to S10/ID+ or high volumn low ap attacks. It also suffers from a lynchpin. In return the entire unit has FNP making it more durable to everything else.. as long as the lynchpin apoth does not get sniped.

Can be built with ravenwing same as above using RW cmd squad which is more expensive on a per model basis. Again though you gain access to MSU obsec biker troops.

These are the builds I am familiar with. In either instance you can also add or substitute rune priests for SW HQs. Not really sure just how effective that is honestly. Probably hit or miss due to only being ML 2. You gain psych and psych protection at the expensive of offensive output (or support elements).

Well sammael and RW can be used. Khan and WS can be used. St.Celestine and hit and run can be used.

I think wolfstar is trending towards white scars primary these days. Bikes absolutely need the powerful cc element the wolfstar brings to the table. I've seen a lot of iterations in reports and a few at tournaments.

Just adding Iron Priests to bike squads can be great way to tank and to deter assaults. Your star can be your characters - CM smashf**er AND Khan and a wolf priest or rune priest and six wolves. That unit will pretty tear a hole through anything and you have points for stalkers/stormfang etc., which also buffs these lists. Running Champions of Fenris as a detachment to a bike list seems to be a winning formula as you get your 3-4 elites, no troops and your cavalry.

Do people need double CAD or a formation to to run 4 iron priests? I thought they were elites.

They are, check champions of fenris- company of the great wolf detachment.. 1-4 hq's 2-8 elites. No compulsory troops.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Do people need double CAD or a formation to to run 4 iron priests? I thought they were elites.

You run a Company of the Great Wolf Detachment. 1/3 HQ, 2/8 Elite, 0/3 o Troops, Fast and Heavy. Compulsory/Maximum that is.

Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

Which means little in the crap shoot of builds that were in the final 32.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

List?

He probably meant White Scars unless they attached Dante to the star.

So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

Unless you have something special, tarpitting TWC is tough due to their high damage output vs nearly all targets.

I would say weight of fire and MSU.

Transports are a good option imo, as without ranged support the TWC take a while to get to the units inside.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

Weight of Fire, for sure. Multiple units of TWC aren't nearly as good, the power of a big unit is that you can pile special rules in there, mainly things like FNP and Hit and Run. Killing 3-4 TWCs is much easier than killing a blob of 9+.

MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Requizen wrote:

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Ahh, good point. My mistake!

The main problem with the deathstar still stands, however. Unlike most other deathstar units, this one is like a cluster bomb - you keep it together to get across the board with stacked buffs (FNP, maybe even invis) and then break it up on their side of the table to charge lots of targets, eat overwatch, or sit on objectives. Transports do seem like a good counter, however (at least for a turn). Against a transport-heavy list I would try to split one iron priest for each transport, keep the lord with the regular TWC and buffers to tank fire, weather the extra turn of shooting and then split up again to assault. If the shooting focuses the iron priests, the heart of the deathstar is still intact. If it focuses the deathstar, each iron priest can assault the contents in the next phase.

Maybe I'm crazy, but when did one unit (multiple bodies) get the ability to join another unit of multiple bodies? The OP mentioned iron wolves with their spare wolves joining a command squad or another unit. Yes independent characters can do this. Units (groups of non independent characters) cannot. TO's should be looking at lists. Unless I'm crazy.

Spaz431 wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but when did one unit (multiple bodies) get the ability to join another unit of multiple bodies? The OP mentioned iron wolves with their spare wolves joining a command squad or another unit. Yes independent characters can do this. Units (groups of non independent characters) cannot. TO's should be looking at lists. Unless I'm crazy.

I believe it's because even though they have their own profile, the cyberwolves are taken as wargear, not additonal models for a unit. Same idea as Tau independent characters and drones.

Requizen wrote:

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Correct but the unit might not be able to deploy.

2.54 cm per inch. 25mm base is 2.5cm a rhino is 7.5 cm wide. If dogs are in the charge and base the rhino sideways so that the long side of the ovals are touching the sides of the rhino it will be completely covered. Even with emergency disembarking models with a 25mm base can not deploy within 2.54 cm of a dog. The entire unit would be destroyed because it would be too close to an enemy unit.

Drown it in Conscripts?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

Drown it in more conscripts

They cannot legally move out if they cant get pasted you (IIRC dont remember if that was the case) also no book on hand atm but was it a roll off or just a one way initative test?

Conscripts would work against a small unit of TWC, but against a big death ball it will fail. Every time someone has tried that, the TWC got the charge, and killed enough conscripts that combat ended because the conscripts and TWC couldn't get into B2B with TWC after the TWC went, pile in still wasn't far enough. I think it was something like +20 conscripts died when the TWC hit them. The conscripts charged them the next turn, and the fearless dude ended up failing a LoS and died.

I think the unit was something like 4 or 5 TWC, TWC lord and Wolf priest. 2 claws, hammer, krakenbone lord. So +30 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s, if you have consripts there is a good chance the PE is infantry, so re-rolls on 1s. Then wounding 2s re-rolls 1s. No saves for anyone.

 Desubot wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

Drown it in more conscripts

They cannot legally move out if they cant get pasted you (IIRC dont remember if that was the case) also no book on hand atm but was it a roll off or just a one way initative test?

H&R is just an initiative test. I've run the star with Dante as my source of H&R and he passes on anything but a 6. It's pretty good.

And I agree that drowning in more conscripts is not effective. The volume of attacks and wounds dished out by the unit is pretty crazy and I've killed myself out of combat with ork boys on many occasions, even after pile in moves.

The star I have been trying out, on the charge, has...109 attacks if everything can get into combat on their initiative step. 42 of those are at AP3 or better.

you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


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wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

 easysauce wrote:
you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


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wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

Given that Bikes and Calvary fall back 3d6", you'd be hard pressed to create a situation where they'd still be close enough unless they roll minimum.

Requizen wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

Given that Bikes and Calvary fall back 3d6", you'd be hard pressed to create a situation where they'd still be close enough unless they roll minimum.

Have you seen a Max out infantry squad list?

its baller amounts of bodies.

Anyway. I feel perhaps the best option is to just attempt to snipe out the IC that has hit and run and hope its not the sisters chick that attempts to come back. vindi probably has a decent chance.

Requizen wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

Given that Bikes and Calvary fall back 3d6", you'd be hard pressed to create a situation where they'd still be close enough unless they roll minimum.

what does fall back have to do with anything? everything hits and runs 3d6, average roll is around 10", depending on the direction and amount of bodies, that can be well under what you need, ESP since every model must clear, and with 50 ish bodies around this can get tricky after pile ins.


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 Desubot wrote:


Have you seen a Max out infantry squad list?

its baller amounts of bodies.

Anyway. I feel perhaps the best option is to just attempt to snipe out the IC that has hit and run and hope its not the sisters chick that attempts to come back. vindi probably has a decent chance.

yeah being able to snipe out the lynchpin is key, and not just for beating wolfstar.

any barrage or as you say a vindi can do well in this role.

Yes, but the point of the star is just to make it down table. At that point the pieces will split off. It rarely needs to stay together.

 Desubot wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

Given that Bikes and Calvary fall back 3d6", you'd be hard pressed to create a situation where they'd still be close enough unless they roll minimum.

Have you seen a Max out infantry squad list?

its baller amounts of bodies.

Anyway. I feel perhaps the best option is to just attempt to snipe out the IC that has hit and run and hope its not the sisters chick that attempts to come back. vindi probably has a decent chance.

I run huge blocks of conscripts. Brought 70 of them to the BAO. They can stand up to a unit dishing out 20+ wounds per turn as long as they get off 4+ invulnerable from divination and rerolls from a priest, but they can not envelope a huge death star of calvary and 60mm bases. The footprint is too large, and it has to be enveloped to prevent a hit and run.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


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wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely

Given that Bikes and Calvary fall back 3d6", you'd be hard pressed to create a situation where they'd still be close enough unless they roll minimum.

Have you seen a Max out infantry squad list?

its baller amounts of bodies.

Anyway. I feel perhaps the best option is to just attempt to snipe out the IC that has hit and run and hope its not the sisters chick that attempts to come back. vindi probably has a decent chance.

I run huge blocks of conscripts. Brought 70 of them to the BAO. They can stand up to a unit dishing out 20+ wounds per turn as long as they get off 4+ invulnerable from divination and rerolls from a priest, but they can not envelope a huge death star of calvary and 60mm bases. The footprint is too large, and it has to be enveloped to prevent a hit and run.

Not sure what the actual mechanics of it are. but i can see it being an issue.

its going to be on the charge > 12" move for attacker then 3" at initiative pile in > end of fight pile in 3" then a further 3 and 3 on IG turn since that's when wolf star would want to H&R. It would be possible with some sort of jump unit to go over to the other side so that you only have to envelop one half but its still pretty inefficient unless you cornered them on a table edge.

I still think the sniper idea is best.

wrapping them in bodies to prevent H+R isnt going to *always* work, but it can be done, and I have done it enough times to white scars that its something to keep in mind.

at the end of the day, wolf star is just a bunch of models that die to massed fire, and often have lynchpin models within the unit that are easy to pick out if you have the right tools.

besides, they have to get that H+R from another codex, so that limits what else they can bring (and often loses them fleet)

being able to snipe out lyncpins, like desubot and I said, is going to be your best bet, and is useful against lots of armies.

so is having a high volume of fire.