Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dominuschao wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Any of the Wolfstar builds eats Knights. 15+ str 10 AP 1 attacks. And two battle cannon shots ain't going to dent this. And if it is scouting, you could be lucky to get two turns of shooting.

But would the wolfstar want to charge something that, when it dies, can ID every model in the unit.

All Guts no Brains. I don't play TWC star lists, but I do play TWC a lot (usually lances and shields) I don't care what im going to charge in on big or small

Don't forget vanilla TWC pack leaders get cheap melta bombs, as well as rending on all of our attacks. Tarpits either get eaten by claws or swept up, and relics add a whole new level of synergy by giving them all Furious charge and the bearer rage. I hate seeing only one unit from my dex get used like this (Im not a fan of stars in general)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And unless im forgetting something TWC have 2 wounds a piece not 1 idk where someone had that idea earlier.

That someone was me and if you read all the OPs comments you'd know his problems stem from a bike command squad based star (ws/rw), not twc based. This build can only access shields on 1 wound cmd members outside of the wolf hq (if not using rp's) and possibly the allied hq (if not using khan/sammael/libbys).I also stated that above. There's basically 2 types both use attached priests + cyber wolves. We're discussing the fnp cmd squad type although the other is good, probably better IMO. Of course someone could include multiple hq's from both detachments but then the star is pushing 1500 pts.

I see now, I just re-read it and notice my mistake.
I think it depends on how you build the Hqs some can be hella cheap and work well with Mounted lists

Editing weird double post

Sometimes it doesnt work out and the knight rolls three D stomps. But you cant bank on that, you have to play the probability game(notice I did not say odds)

I'm not talking about stomps. Read my comment again.

When the knight dies it drops the massive apoc blast which is very likely to hit most, if not all, of the star, with a strong likelihood of being str D/10 and ignoring 3+ saves.

On a good day the explosion alone may very well make the knight's points back vs a wolf star lol.

It sounds like a good star. Hit and run combined with the ability to split off 4 wolves and a hq is a real strong point.

Do wolves drive it down to majority t4?

On the defensive it sounds like wolves just die to ap2 and hq tank regular hits with 2+ and fnp. The only issue I see is it trying to deal with a reroll able invo.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It sounds like a good star. Hit and run combined with the ability to split off 4 wolves and a hq is a real strong point.

Do wolves drive it down to majority t4?

On the defensive it sounds like wolves just die to ap2 and hq tank regular hits with 2+ and fnp. The only issue I see is it trying to deal with a reroll able invo.

Cyberwolves have been FAQ'd to T5 as they're described in the profiles summary.

Dominate psychic power with a LD debuff should work in theory, I hadn't had the chance to try it yet.

Since theres some confusion on whats being discussed lets clarify. I'm sure theres plenty of ways to do it but the basic idea of each type of 'star' is to make a large durable unit of toughness 5 models (cyberwolves were faq'd to t5) that can be fractured into multiple units when needed. So to bring this out of the abstract a little more heres a few ways to build this thing. The exact equipment loadout and unit sizes will vary but the general idea is the same so just assume the builds below are examples. All include allies with SW coming from CoF to keep compulsory costs down. The preferred allies will be white scars or ravenwing, both due to conferring hit and run and scout.

-Basic TWC based star-
(The core of the star is thunderwolf cavalry.)

SW character(s)
wg battle leader- twm, ss, pf, 2 fen wolves- 156 (could be multiples likely at the expense of iron priests and/or TWC models)

4 x iron priests- twm, 4 cyber wolves each- 660.

TWC
6 TWC, 6 shields, 2 pf- 380 (plenty of ways to build this including unit size).

allied/CAD IC- khan and/or smashf*cker if C:SM. Khan for scout, SF for tanking. Either one confers hit and run. khan- 150.

This star is more expensive base running around 1350+ with 6 twc, 1 wgbl, 4 tw priests and khan (+18 wolves). Can be reduced in cost but the impact on performance is greater here. The above has essentially 6 individual elements worth splitting and a total of 30 models, 28 of which are t5, and 7 storm shields.

Can be built with ravenwing and sammael instead which allows the army to access more MSU bike elements for troops.

However you buld it the TWC based star has potential for more high strength attacks, more storm shields and on 2-3 wound models, but only armour saves for the fodder and the units base cost is higher.



-Bike command squad based star-
(the core of the star is biker command squad, NOT twc)

SW character(s)
wg battle leader- twm, ss, pf, 2 fen wolves- 156 (could be multiples likely at the expense of iron priests or possibly a few cyberwolves)

4 x iron priests- twm, 4 cyber wolves each- 660.

allied/CAD IC- khan and/or smashf*cker if C:SM. Khan for scout SF for tanking. Either one confers hit and run.

Bike cmd
5 cmd- bikes, apoth- 150 (could add storm shields or grav which wouldn't be used until later due to run moves. Dont add both).

This star is less expensive base running around 1100+ with 5 cmd, 1 wgbl, 4 tw priests and khan (+18 wolves). Can be reduced or increased in cost easier. The above also has 6 individual elements worth splitting and a total of 29 models, 27 of which are t5, and only 1 storm shield (5 if you equip 4 cmd models too). It doesn't have quite the potential for hitting power or durability to S10/ID+ or high volumn low ap attacks. It also suffers from a lynchpin. In return the entire unit has FNP making it more durable to everything else.. as long as the lynchpin apoth does not get sniped.

Can be built with ravenwing same as above using RW cmd squad which is more expensive on a per model basis. Again though you gain access to MSU obsec biker troops.

These are the builds I am familiar with. In either instance you can also add or substitute rune priests for SW HQs. Not really sure just how effective that is honestly. Probably hit or miss due to only being ML 2. You gain psych and psych protection at the expensive of offensive output (or support elements).

Well sammael and RW can be used. Khan and WS can be used. St.Celestine and hit and run can be used.

I think wolfstar is trending towards white scars primary these days. Bikes absolutely need the powerful cc element the wolfstar brings to the table. I've seen a lot of iterations in reports and a few at tournaments.

Just adding Iron Priests to bike squads can be great way to tank and to deter assaults. Your star can be your characters - CM smashf**er AND Khan and a wolf priest or rune priest and six wolves. That unit will pretty tear a hole through anything and you have points for stalkers/stormfang etc., which also buffs these lists. Running Champions of Fenris as a detachment to a bike list seems to be a winning formula as you get your 3-4 elites, no troops and your cavalry.

Do people need double CAD or a formation to to run 4 iron priests? I thought they were elites.

They are, check champions of fenris- company of the great wolf detachment.. 1-4 hq's 2-8 elites. No compulsory troops.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Do people need double CAD or a formation to to run 4 iron priests? I thought they were elites.

You run a Company of the Great Wolf Detachment. 1/3 HQ, 2/8 Elite, 0/3 o Troops, Fast and Heavy. Compulsory/Maximum that is.

Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

Which means little in the crap shoot of builds that were in the final 32.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well sir your concerns on Wolfstar just got proved valid in the US. A BA Bike/TWC list just finished #4 at the Adepticon. A big ball of death with Hit n Run, FNP and stuff.

List?

He probably meant White Scars unless they attached Dante to the star.

So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

Unless you have something special, tarpitting TWC is tough due to their high damage output vs nearly all targets.

I would say weight of fire and MSU.

Transports are a good option imo, as without ranged support the TWC take a while to get to the units inside.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So here's a thought

How would you deal with multiple 3 man squads with a Thunderwolf Iron Priest with them, TWC with Storm Shields + Thunderhammers?

Tarpit, weight of fire?

This would be at 1250 points so three units of TWC with the Thunderwolf priest is 990 minimum but still a frightening prospect. I think maybe Rune Priests with Bikes rolling on Biomancy for Endurance...haha.

Weight of Fire, for sure. Multiple units of TWC aren't nearly as good, the power of a big unit is that you can pile special rules in there, mainly things like FNP and Hit and Run. Killing 3-4 TWCs is much easier than killing a blob of 9+.

MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Requizen wrote:

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Ahh, good point. My mistake!

The main problem with the deathstar still stands, however. Unlike most other deathstar units, this one is like a cluster bomb - you keep it together to get across the board with stacked buffs (FNP, maybe even invis) and then break it up on their side of the table to charge lots of targets, eat overwatch, or sit on objectives. Transports do seem like a good counter, however (at least for a turn). Against a transport-heavy list I would try to split one iron priest for each transport, keep the lord with the regular TWC and buffers to tank fire, weather the extra turn of shooting and then split up again to assault. If the shooting focuses the iron priests, the heart of the deathstar is still intact. If it focuses the deathstar, each iron priest can assault the contents in the next phase.

Maybe I'm crazy, but when did one unit (multiple bodies) get the ability to join another unit of multiple bodies? The OP mentioned iron wolves with their spare wolves joining a command squad or another unit. Yes independent characters can do this. Units (groups of non independent characters) cannot. TO's should be looking at lists. Unless I'm crazy.

Spaz431 wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but when did one unit (multiple bodies) get the ability to join another unit of multiple bodies? The OP mentioned iron wolves with their spare wolves joining a command squad or another unit. Yes independent characters can do this. Units (groups of non independent characters) cannot. TO's should be looking at lists. Unless I'm crazy.

I believe it's because even though they have their own profile, the cyberwolves are taken as wargear, not additonal models for a unit. Same idea as Tau independent characters and drones.

Requizen wrote:

beir wrote:
MSU won't really work against this list. Each Iron Priest can split off as an individual unit with its 4 cyberwolves and dominate pretty much any typical MSU list's units. 5 S9 AP1 attacks from the IP plus 16 S4 attacks from the cyberwolves eats a lot of MEQs.

Transports have a similar problem. Iron priest detaches from deathstar, assaults the rhino or other transport and pretty much auto-pops it (AP1 is good). The lord or TWC or other ICs in the deathstar then sweep in and finish off the unit inside.

You can't charge a unit that disembarks from a transport that was destroyed in the same Assault phase. Since all charges are technically declared simultaneously.

Just saying

Correct but the unit might not be able to deploy.

2.54 cm per inch. 25mm base is 2.5cm a rhino is 7.5 cm wide. If dogs are in the charge and base the rhino sideways so that the long side of the ovals are touching the sides of the rhino it will be completely covered. Even with emergency disembarking models with a 25mm base can not deploy within 2.54 cm of a dog. The entire unit would be destroyed because it would be too close to an enemy unit.

Drown it in Conscripts?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

Drown it in more conscripts

They cannot legally move out if they cant get pasted you (IIRC dont remember if that was the case) also no book on hand atm but was it a roll off or just a one way initative test?

Conscripts would work against a small unit of TWC, but against a big death ball it will fail. Every time someone has tried that, the TWC got the charge, and killed enough conscripts that combat ended because the conscripts and TWC couldn't get into B2B with TWC after the TWC went, pile in still wasn't far enough. I think it was something like +20 conscripts died when the TWC hit them. The conscripts charged them the next turn, and the fearless dude ended up failing a LoS and died.

I think the unit was something like 4 or 5 TWC, TWC lord and Wolf priest. 2 claws, hammer, krakenbone lord. So +30 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s, if you have consripts there is a good chance the PE is infantry, so re-rolls on 1s. Then wounding 2s re-rolls 1s. No saves for anyone.

 Desubot wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Drown it in Conscripts?

Yes unless they have allies with hit and run.

Drown it in more conscripts

They cannot legally move out if they cant get pasted you (IIRC dont remember if that was the case) also no book on hand atm but was it a roll off or just a one way initative test?

H&R is just an initiative test. I've run the star with Dante as my source of H&R and he passes on anything but a 6. It's pretty good.

And I agree that drowning in more conscripts is not effective. The volume of attacks and wounds dished out by the unit is pretty crazy and I've killed myself out of combat with ork boys on many occasions, even after pile in moves.

The star I have been trying out, on the charge, has...109 attacks if everything can get into combat on their initiative step. 42 of those are at AP3 or better.

you still have to clear the unit you are running away from and be 1" away for H+R to work,

so surrounding them with conscripts is a viable tactic to stop them from H+R, or at least force them to roll a higher #


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wolfstar will die to mass of fire like most other things, tau/eldar/guard can lay them down nicely