If you've read Warzone Damocles and the Damocles Anthology the ending of both books leaves the Tau in a very precarious position.

- The supreme Commander of the Tau forces is almost killed by a space marine.

- The best of her army is wiped out on Voltaris and barely escape alive.

- The Imperium achieves this victory with essentially three companies of marines, Knight House Terryn and two Imperial Guard regiments.

- Elsewhere, in the Zeist sector, the Ultramarines lead a coalition that inflicts a further serious defeat on the Tau.

- Then in the Astra Militarum codex, they make it clear that the big counter attack that Kor Sarro and all the others have been waiting for is finally coming like a righteous hammer. I think it says like a 1000 guard regiments plus titans and space marines is en route or something like that.


Now, yes, the book does make clear that everything is "in the balance". However I think this is very misleading. A recurring theme, especially with the Third Sphere expansion, is that the Imperium is too preoccupied with the 13th Black Crusade and the Tyranids to deal with the Tau. However both the space marine codex and particularly the Imperial Guard codex imply the exact opposite. That the Imperium, after the early success of the 3rd expansion is actually rooting serious forces, including the three first founding chapters (Raven Guard, White Scars and Ultramarines) and thousands of guard regiments. This certainly gives the impression that the easy victories described in the tau codex are over for the 3rd sphere.

Shadowsuns war on Agrellen and Voltaris were unmitigated disasters, to the point where Aun Va seriously considered getting rid of her as supreme commander. This is also a big change or shake up in the wider narrative. Instead of the ailing Imperium being rapidly swept away by the vigorous tau its suggesting that GW might be changing things to make the Imperium more ascendant. Unlike with the Ziost camapaign where they very quickly made clear that what the Imperium retook the tau simply conquered more stuff elsewhere. In Agrellen, they kind of have left it pretty clear cut; the tau lost, badly. So I think this might be it for the Third Sphere.

It's possiable. assuming those units aren't reassigned to Cadia in the near future. at the very least if the IoM is counter attacking that's bad news for the Tau. The Tau where in a good position so long as they could keep up with a semi rapid advance, but if they get into a long drawn out war of attrition with the IoM it's bad for them. It's also worth noting that in a large campaign where the IoM is trying the Tau could also be in trouble due to the greater strategic mobility of the IoM

Nah. I'd say that the Third Sphere of Expansion has slowed down significantly and that the Tau have finally met effective Imperial resistance. So, either the Tau will come up with something brilliant to overcome the Imperium or be bogged down in a costly war until one side gives up.

Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

in fairness on a realistic scale 10 million soldiers would be an accounting error for something the size of the IoM

As far as numbers and sources go, the force listed in the Imperial Guard codex as being sent to wipe out the Tau is the second largest concentration on force we've ever seen in Imperial fluff records. It dwarfs the Imperial armies fighting on Armageddon, and is surpassed only by the scale of Imperial defenders on Cadia. Even then, the size of the Imperial forces fighting in the Cadia system is only marginally larger- like, a handful of chapters and maybe a couple hundred regiments larger.

Considering that the Cadian system is second only to Terra and Mars in strategic value to the Imperium, that says... an awful lot about Tau capabilities. Despite what some claim, it's pretty clear that the Tau are a firm cut above your "average" Xenos empire in the Galaxy.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness on a realistic scale 10 million soldiers would be an accounting error for something the size of the IoM

That's less than the amount of Kriegsmen that died on Vraks, and there was only 34 regiments sent there.

Aren't Kreig regiments huge compared to other guard though?

I think what I was trying to get at is that because the Damocles campaign drew on the central figure of the Tau being so utterly defeated (even if the Imperium did lose Agrellen) that it feels different than just random group of tau get wiped out on some distant rock without context. That happens all the time in the fluff. What made this different is that GW was clearly pushing this warzone as representative of the whole Third Sphere Expansion. This is reinforced by the Agrellen campaign featuring so heavily in the 6th edition codex fluff. So having it end in ignominious tau defeat and there isn't really any silver lining to that as is usually the case. Take Shield of Baal for instance where Leviathan survives the super weapon and the Imperium has had most of its armies destroyed and lost the Shield of Baal leaving the Blood Angels homeworld open to attack; hence Dante and the Sanguinors conversation about hope at the books end. In Damocles, most of the Imperial army survives far as we can tell and its not a significant deployment as was the case in the Shield of Baal, hence what losses it sustained were trivial. And whereas Leviathan clearly survived to be a threat the Tau are presented as reeling and having only narrowly escaped catastrophe. So losing Agrellen, the gateway world, doesn't really matter because the real threat has been eliminated with the defeat of Shadowsun and the tau armies at Voltaris.

Failed? No. IIRC, there hasn't been any mention of specific targets for TSE, just, well, expansion (on larger scale).

Stalled/Pushed back? Yes. Now the Imperium actually sees the Tau, and take them as a real threat, and focuses more military force on them than before.

If not for the 13th Black Crusade, the Imperium would have crushed Tau already.

It also bears noting that it's a long, long way from the Segmentum Ultima to the Cadian Gate. Like, sidereal-years of time spent in the Warp to get from Point A to B. It's likely that the Imperium knows that its forces currently on the eastern side of the galaxy cannot reach the battle-lines of the 13th Black Crusade in anything near "in time", and so are devoting them to dealing with more-local issues.

Like the Tau.

Would Shrikemhave let Khan have Shadowsuns head if Shrike got the KB?

I think that's the real question here.

But for the main topic here, yes, the Tau Empire are on the back foot now. Shadowsun put the Tau into a tricky position now that they woke up the Imperium by attacking a hive world, and then a Knight World.

There are plenty of foot notes about ambitious Xenos Empires in the annals of the Imperium's history. If the Tau were smart, they would avoid poking the bear.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Would Shrikemhave let Khan have Shadowsuns head if Shrike got the KB?

I think that's the real question here.

But for the main topic here, yes, the Tau Empire are on the back foot now. Shadowsun put the Tau into a tricky position now that they woke up the Imperium by attacking a hive world, and then a Knight World.

There are plenty of foot notes about ambitious Xenos Empires in the annals of the Imperium's history. If the Tau were smart, they would avoid poking the bear.

No poking, just run around it in circles and hope it gets rid of itself.

This is exactly how I got rid of my last wife. With this strategy, the Tau will rise and impose their creepy mantra on us all.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Would Shrikemhave let Khan have Shadowsuns head if Shrike got the KB?

I think that's the real question here.

But for the main topic here, yes, the Tau Empire are on the back foot now. Shadowsun put the Tau into a tricky position now that they woke up the Imperium by attacking a hive world, and then a Knight World.

There are plenty of foot notes about ambitious Xenos Empires in the annals of the Imperium's history. If the Tau were smart, they would avoid poking the bear.

It's worth noting that Imperium ships have issues traversing the Damocles Gulf. As such, maintaining a flow of men and materials for a successful push into core Tau space might prove problematic.

Also, has the Imperium won any offensive war of annihilation against a Xeno empire since the end of the Great Crusade?

Sorry to go a bit off-topic but what books can I find all this in? and what order is best?

Thamor wrote:
Sorry to go a bit off-topic but what books can I find all this in? and what order is best?

Warzone Damocles for details on Agrellan and Valtoris. The little blurb about guard sending their forces in is in the Astra Militarum codex's timeline. There's also some of the more general information from the actual Tau codex. It's probably best if you just read Warzone Damocles though.

LordBlades wrote:
It's worth noting that Imperium ships have issues traversing the Damocles Gulf. As such, maintaining a flow of men and materials for a successful push into core Tau space might prove problematic.

Attacking a highly evolved Xenos civilization with a population that numbers anything from billions to potentially trillions using 4-10 million men (basically WWII invasion numbers) without supply lines across interstellar distances is just idiotic. Surely the the problem with traversing the Gulf alone would imply numbers several magnitudes higher?

 Las wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.

Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

LordBlades wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Would Shrikemhave let Khan have Shadowsuns head if Shrike got the KB?

I think that's the real question here.

But for the main topic here, yes, the Tau Empire are on the back foot now. Shadowsun put the Tau into a tricky position now that they woke up the Imperium by attacking a hive world, and then a Knight World.

There are plenty of foot notes about ambitious Xenos Empires in the annals of the Imperium's history. If the Tau were smart, they would avoid poking the bear.

It's worth noting that Imperium ships have issues traversing the Damocles Gulf. As such, maintaining a flow of men and materials for a successful push into core Tau space might prove problematic.

Also, has the Imperium won any offensive war of annihilation against a Xeno empire since the end of the Great Crusade?

You'll find such mentions as foot-notes in the various Space Marine Chapter codices, generally on their historic timelines. If you want a Black Library reference, the White Consuls, several regiments of the Imperial Guard, and a conclave of Inquisitorial forces, led by Gregor Eisenhorn, exterminated the Yuuvath in M40.

I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.

Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

I think you're making a few mistakes in your analysis. 1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable. 2) you're characterizing the IG as a force capable of rapid redeployment when all their fluff points to them being a slow moving force hampered with logistical difficulties. 3) WW2 and early 20th century warfare is really the only comparison that can be brought in, not least because the world wars are the only conflicts in human history that give examples of comparable scales of operation, not to mention that the guard have clearly been designed to represent themes based on popular mythology of the western front in 1915-17. 4) the entire 40k fluff has made it abundantly clear that because of rule of cool, warfare is won and lost on the ground. Looking at it from a realistic perspective and marveling at how orbital supremacy doesn't win engagements instantly really isn't the way to go.

epronovost wrote:
I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

Well, let's be real, 40k is not modern or "future" war. It's fantasy. It is however based on popular ideas of mostly WWI and WWII. The IG fights very much like how our popular culture has depicted combat in those conflicts. They are therefore, I think, comparable as the designers made a conscious choice to draw on those themes. As for your points about the number of actual combatants, true, but why would the same not be true about an IG regiment? To be honest, 10 million men is laughable as a force intended to take an entire planet from a competent defender engaged in symetrical warfare, let alone multiple star systems.

Also, it must be noted that wars are not won by seizing parliaments and military bases but by destroying or overwhelming the enemy's ability to propagate industrial scale war and maintain a wartime economy.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
It's worth noting that Imperium ships have issues traversing the Damocles Gulf. As such, maintaining a flow of men and materials for a successful push into core Tau space might prove problematic.

Attacking a highly evolved Xenos civilization with a population that numbers anything from billions to potentially trillions using 4-10 million men (basically WWII invasion numbers) without supply lines across interstellar distances is just idiotic. Surely the the problem with traversing the Gulf alone would imply numbers several magnitudes higher?

There aren't billions and trillions of xenos. There are exactly as many as GW deems worthy of the fluff blurb you get.
Plus, there may have been a lot, then the IG solved the Problem. In a very violent way.


40k worlds are sci-fantasy products written by a company which isn't known for its grasp of scale.
Take your assumption of the 4-10 Milllion IG for example. A Regiment could be 1000 or 250.000 heads strong.( IG 5th ed ). Use 1000 x 1000 or 1000 x 250.000 ?

Additionally, without the Kroot the Tau would have to stop their "expansion spheres" because they needed the Kroot to bolster their numbers. ( Tau dex ) Kroot aren't known to live in hive cities of billions.... Tau like a clean and well sorted environment....


1. sphere was to step from their homeworld into their system and nearby systems.
2. sphere was led by Farsight....
3. sphere was led by shadowsun....
4. sphere is bending the knee to a Necron Dynasty
5. sphere is back to the roots, Tau Empire = T'au.....

@Las

Actually, yes they are won like that today and they were won like that before. Industrial and total warfare , the two different types of conflict you are reffering to, are unique to the beginning of the 20th century in their structure, tactics and organisation. Now, the idea of such a conflict is ridiculous because we possess weapons capable of destroying entire civilsations making any warfare on that scale self destructive. That's why soft powers like economical blocus, and trading deals are used much much more and weaponised warfare is conducted against ennemy so weak there is basically no risk to loose it.

The Imperium maintain an empire based on the structure of tithing, much like Assyrian, Sassanid, Parthian, Sarmatean Federation empires (or almost all middle eastern empires before the first Caliphate). They fought tribute wars in which you defeat the ennemy leadership in battle and than impose a tax on the defeated if they don't want to face more bloodshed. It relies on intimidation and a good demonstration of strength. That's how the Imperium fight it's war. They have no desire to control the Tau Empire (or any other ennemy for that matter), simply interest in exterminating it or bullying it into submission.

For that, they just need to destroy a few key targets, bomb the rest and send people to clean up the rest of the resistence (if any). Capacity to maintain efficient warfare at a planetary level require strong leadership and specilised equipment to transport and coordonate troops. If you seize their seats of power, kill their most foremost leader and their two or three greatest millitary assets, you will realise that even if the ennemy still has billions of sodiers they are unable to fight in a organised and efficient manner on a large scale. Thus the extermination process can start and even though war will rage for decades on that planet, everybody knows how it will end, a bit like how Nazi leadership knew they were going to loose has early has late 1941. You can send your colonie ships even if they are still there and procede to their extermination over the next few century with possible help of the Imperium should they recover from that blow.

1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable

less then you might think though. the Imperial Navy has much much greater strategic mobility. this would allow them to likely manuver to ensure local superiority.

epronovost wrote:
@Las

Actually, yes they are won like that today and they were won like that before. Industrial and total warfare , the two different types of conflict you are reffering to, are unique to the beginning of the 20th century in their structure, tactics and organisation. Now, the idea of such a conflict is ridiculous because we possess weapons capable of destroying entire civilsations making any warfare on that scale self destructive. That's why soft powers like economical blocus, and trading deals are used much much more and weaponised warfare is conducted against ennemy so weak there is basically no risk to loose it.

The Imperium maintain an empire based on the structure of tithing, much like Assyrian, Sassanid, Parthian, Sarmatean Federation empires (or almost all middle eastern empires before the first Caliphate). They fought tribute wars in which you defeat the ennemy leadership in battle and than impose a tax on the defeated if they don't want to face more bloodshed. It relies on intimidation and a good demonstration of strength. That's how the Imperium fight it's war. They have no desire to control the Tau Empire (or any other ennemy for that matter), simply interest in exterminating it or bullying it into submission.

For that, they just need to destroy a few key targets, bomb the rest and send people to clean up the rest of the resistence (if any). Capacity to maintain efficient warfare at a planetary level require strong leadership and specilised equipment to transport and coordonate troops. If you seize their seats of power, kill their most foremost leader and their two or three greatest millitary assets, you will realise that even if the ennemy still has billions of sodiers they are unable to fight in a organised and efficient manner on a large scale. Thus the extermination process can start and even though war will rage for decades on that planet, everybody knows how it will end, a bit like how Nazi leadership knew they were going to loose has early has late 1941. You can send your colonie ships even if they are still there and procede to their extermination over the next few century with possible help of the Imperium should they recover from that blow.

@your first point

That's just it, those weapons exist in 40k yet they - for the reason of the game depicting large scale industrial warfare - are not used or are at least an ineffective deterrent. I should've specified I was referring to twentieth century total war, of which the fictional wars of 40k are clearly based on.

Your second point has some inconsistencies. First, forcing a central dynastic leadership to surrender causes a command and control difficulty only in a setting without the kinds of communications capabilities which exist in 40k. Assuming that a planetary warzone would be organized from a single individual or group of individuals and not predicated by a flexible chain of command is not only silly and unsupported by tau fluff, but impossible. Secondly the worlds of the Tau empire are - in theory - ideologically committed to the war effort. They are not going to yield by a show of imperial strength like some upstart world that just refused the tithe one day. In fact literally all the fluff has examples where, once a world makes that jump to bein ideologically opposed to the imperium (to chaos or whatever), the standard resulting conflict is one of grinding, attritional total war. It's literally either that or just blow it up.

BrianDavion wrote:

1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable

less then you might think though. the Imperial Navy has much much greater strategic mobility. this would allow them to likely manuver to ensure local superiority.

Imperial Navy's greater mobility is highly dependent on the whims of the Warp. Since the Tau Empire is rather small, the Tau's more reliable FTL technology might actually give them the upper hand.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As far as numbers and sources go, the force listed in the Imperial Guard codex as being sent to wipe out the Tau is the second largest concentration on force we've ever seen in Imperial fluff records. It dwarfs the Imperial armies fighting on Armageddon, and is surpassed only by the scale of Imperial defenders on Cadia. Even then, the size of the Imperial forces fighting in the Cadia system is only marginally larger- like, a handful of chapters and maybe a couple hundred regiments larger.

Considering that the Cadian system is second only to Terra and Mars in strategic value to the Imperium, that says... an awful lot about Tau capabilities. Despite what some claim, it's pretty clear that the Tau are a firm cut above your "average" Xenos empire in the Galaxy.

Dwarving the Imperial armies on Armageddon is not hard at all. The Imperial force in the Third War for Armageddon was tiny. According to Codex: Armageddon, there were 305 IG regiments deployed to Armageddon (including PDF). Assuming an average size of ten thousand guardsmen per regiment (regiments can range between a few thousand to tens of thousand), that would give a total Imperial Guard force of a little more than 3 million. That is tiny considering the scale of the Imperium. For comparison, the German force that invaded the Soviet Union was 3.8 million strong.
40k writers just lack any sense of scale, they just throw around random numbers.

And as well, the Imperium's warp capabilities are completely irrelevant when discussing their ability to actually engage enemy fleets and gain orbital superior over a planet for the purposes of mass deployment, which is the context Veteran Sargent was discussing.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Dwarving the Imperial armies on Armageddon is not hard at all. The Imperial force in the Third War for Armageddon was tiny. According to Codex: Armageddon, there were 305 IG regiments deployed to Armageddon (including PDF). Assuming an average size of ten thousand guardsmen per regiment (regiments can range between a few thousand to tens of thousand), that would give a total Imperial Guard force of a little more than 3 million. That is tiny considering the scale of the Imperium. For comparison, the German force that invaded the Soviet Union was 3.8 million strong.
40k writers just lack any sense of scale, they just throw around random numbers.

I don't understand your point in relation to mine.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Dwarving the Imperial armies on Armageddon is not hard at all. The Imperial force in the Third War for Armageddon was tiny. According to Codex: Armageddon, there were 305 IG regiments deployed to Armageddon (including PDF). Assuming an average size of ten thousand guardsmen per regiment (regiments can range between a few thousand to tens of thousand), that would give a total Imperial Guard force of a little more than 3 million. That is tiny considering the scale of the Imperium. For comparison, the German force that invaded the Soviet Union was 3.8 million strong.
40k writers just lack any sense of scale, they just throw around random numbers.

While I agree GW lacks a sense of scale one could argue that the Armageddon sizes were so small because the PDF numbers weren't included. As such an important hive world it is plausible that, especially after the Orks invaded again, conscription led to vast armies that were not technically a prat of the Imperial Guard.

Despite that the passage noting than 1000 Imperial Guard regiments were destined for the Tau Empire implies that it is a significant force that is being sent (which is likely more important than the actual numbers in my opinion).

GW writers need to understand that in order to have the proper scale for the setting they should really add 3 zeroes to the end when discussing the size of the forces involved.

Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Dwarving the Imperial armies on Armageddon is not hard at all. The Imperial force in the Third War for Armageddon was tiny. According to Codex: Armageddon, there were 305 IG regiments deployed to Armageddon (including PDF). Assuming an average size of ten thousand guardsmen per regiment (regiments can range between a few thousand to tens of thousand), that would give a total Imperial Guard force of a little more than 3 million. That is tiny considering the scale of the Imperium. For comparison, the German force that invaded the Soviet Union was 3.8 million strong.
40k writers just lack any sense of scale, they just throw around random numbers.

While I agree GW lacks a sense of scale one could argue that the Armageddon sizes were so small because the PDF numbers weren't included. As such an important hive world it is plausible that, especially after the Orks invaded again, conscription led to vast armies that were not technically a prat of the Imperial Guard.

Despite that the passage noting than 1000 Imperial Guard regiments were destined for the Tau Empire implies that it is a significant force that is being sent (which is likely more important than the actual numbers in my opinion).

The numbers already include the local PDF. 120 regiments of Armageddon Hive Militia.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't understand your point in relation to mine.

I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.

I agree GW has big issues with scale when it comes to numbers of soldiers involved in their wars.

One possible handwave is that the Imperium does have those billions of troops but the bottleneck is the amount of available shipping for them at any one time. The average transport ship in BFG is depicted as being able to carry about 1/3 to 1/2 a regiment according to Imperial Armour 3. This means that the Imperium may be waging war through attrition over time instead of single sledgehammer "bury them in bodies" type attacks. The Imperium may be ferrying over a few hundred regiments and those fight the local enemy on the planet while the ships go back to pick up the next round of reinforcements. The enemies on the ground might think they are doing well...except the Imperial Guard forces never seem to diminish no matter how badly they get mauled, and if any thing they get larger and larger.

A huge impirial sledge hammer is about to hit home, assuming of course a black crusade or hive fleet don,t save them.

And if it degrades to attrition, the impirium can keep 10 million men up without a sweat 100 could be achieved with no effert on the grand scheme, more importantly in ship terms they have thousands more dock yards.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

The Tau Empire is conveniently located in resource rich systems partially cut off from the Imperium. Up to now the Imperium does not appear to have been overly keen on performing Exterminatus on the Tau. That could however change.

Iron_Captain wrote:The numbers already include the local PDF. 120 regiments of Armageddon Hive Militia.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.

Ahh. Yes, the majority of the numbers GW throws around to show Imperial zerging are ridiculously low. However as far as in-universe is concerned, Armageddon is one of the most hotly contested zones in the Imperium, simply forcing a stalemate there is the crowning achievement of the Orks thus far (sans the actions of the Beast, which we know nothing about). Thus it's an immense show of Tau strength in relation to the other factions of the Galaxy that the force being sent to cull them is so much more massive then most of the others in Imperial conflict.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

The fact that the Imperium has spent millions of lives trying to fight the Tau on the ground is proof that simply burning the planet to the ground isn't an option to them, for whatever reason. Also, trying to fight them in space is silly because that removes the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau: numbers. Tau space-tech and space tactics are so advanced that they've wiped their ass with entire Tyranid splinter-fleets without losing a single ship- a feat the Imperium has never come even close to achieving.

RE numbers: ants have a life-span of like a month, yet number in the hundreds of billions (iirc). Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia. With an empire spanning multiple star-systems, it isn't at all unfeasible that they could number in the trillions by now.

It is important to bear in mind here that in the 40K paradigm space power is not the be all and end all of warfare.

In particular, with reference to the BFG rulebook, the average planetary defense laser silo packs almost as much firepower as the broadside of a Gothic cruiser, with greater range than the Gothic. Likewise, the average planetary defense missile silo has the launch capacity of a full cruiser, and the average planetary defense air base has enough short range aerospace fighters and bombers to match a Dictator cruiser.


From the old GW Armageddon 3 website archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20010820235454/www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/BFG/BFGmap.html

we can see the defenses of each hive on Armageddon comprised at least 4 air bases, 8 missile silos, and 8 laser silos. That kind of firepower would be enough to shred your average Imperial frigate, and even your average cruiser, if they tried to bombard the hive. Even if one takes Armageddon to be a more heavily defended than usual hive world, it still gives a rough gauge of the defenses a typical hive might have, which still is likely to overpower most spaceships.

So in other words, in 40K, ground based defense installations can pack equal or superior firepower to an orbiting starship, and if point values are any indicator, at a lower cost too.

 Las wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.

Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

I think you're making a few mistakes in your analysis. 1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable. 2) you're characterizing the IG as a force capable of rapid redeployment when all their fluff points to them being a slow moving force hampered with logistical difficulties. 3) WW2 and early 20th century warfare is really the only comparison that can be brought in, not least because the world wars are the only conflicts in human history that give examples of comparable scales of operation, not to mention that the guard have clearly been designed to represent themes based on popular mythology of the western front in 1915-17. 4) the entire 40k fluff has made it abundantly clear that because of rule of cool, warfare is won and lost on the ground. Looking at it from a realistic perspective and marveling at how orbital supremacy doesn't win engagements instantly really isn't the way to go.

epronovost wrote:
I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

Well, let's be real, 40k is not modern or "future" war. It's fantasy. It is however based on popular ideas of mostly WWI and WWII. The IG fights very much like how our popular culture has depicted combat in those conflicts. They are therefore, I think, comparable as the designers made a conscious choice to draw on those themes. As for your points about the number of actual combatants, true, but why would the same not be true about an IG regiment? To be honest, 10 million men is laughable as a force intended to take an entire planet from a competent defender engaged in symetrical warfare, let alone multiple star systems.

Also, it must be noted that wars are not won by seizing parliaments and military bases but by destroying or overwhelming the enemy's ability to propagate industrial scale war and maintain a wartime economy.

Whether or not the Imperial Guard can establish air/space supremacy early or late isn't really relevant. If they can establish it at any point, they can then wipe out otherwise impregnable ground defenses at a whim. The only time that ground battles in the 40K turn into WW2 style stalemates is when there is a desire to take the objectives intact (recovering AdMech factorums, hive cities, etc). If their only objective is to eradicate xeno presence from a planet, then all they need to do is eliminate the surface to space defenses and blast it from orbit. People get confused by stuff like the Siege of Vraks, Taros, or the war for Armageddon, thinking that must be the only way a war is fought in 40K, when it's probably a fairly inaccurate depiction of a normal campaign.

The IGuard doesn't need to grind Wermacht into oblivion and outlast its ability to make war. If it can make the Tau vulnerable ground targets, it can lance them from orbit, lol. It isn't like there's any consideration to civilian casualties when xenos are involved.

As far as what the "fluff says" about how warfare is won and lost, read some of the Battlefleet Gothic fluff. You'll find the fluff tends to be pretty complimentary of whatever style of combat they're trying to sell you miniature toys for.

The guy directly above you is using BFG to support the notion that space supremacy tends to mean little in the grand scheme of taking a planet in 40K.

He's using the rules as a theoretical, not the fluff as an absolute. Kinda of a difference, ya know.

When the governor replied: "We
are loyal servants of the Emperor and we will not
accept any rule other then His!", one broadside
salvo from the Blasphemer battleship turned the
governor's palace and a part of the capital city into
radioactive rubble and dust. The governor's
hurriedly elected successor gladly accepted the
proposal of 'cooperation'...

Many fled to the surface of Barbarus III, thinking themselves safe from our guns. How wrong they were. Using plasma torpedoes modified by Magos Urilun of the Adeptus Mechanicus, we set fire to the atmosphere of the near-deserted world, burning them out.

an unknown renegade battleship entered the Ra system, attacking the principal system, immediately landing a contingent of Emperor's Sons Chaos Space Marines and commencing an orbital bombardment against Hives Nestor and Caltex until the planetary givernor capitulated and was overthrown.

Etc.

And notice how not a single one of those oribital bombardments was commenced in the middle of a planetary-sized battle with enemy fleets and enemy ground-to-air defenses actively fighting back.

None of the situations you've quoted would match what would happen if an Imperial fleet suddenly appeared above a Xenos planet.

It's okay to admit when you're wrong.

Continuing to argue a lost cause is just silly.

Excellent counter-argument.

I'm being sarcastic, that's a terrible counter-argument. Get out of my thread.

I wouldn't say that has failed, but there is a possibility that it has ended. Each sphere continues until they cannot continue without undue risk, and then there is a period in which they spread, repopulate, and fully take over the worlds they have claimed. For the sphere to fail would have the empire not claiming any worlds or losing them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I used your point about the Imperial force on Armageddon to illustrate that any numbers given in 40k fluff should be taken with truckloads of salt as they are often unrealistic or downright impossible because 40k writers (and sci fi writers in general) often have little sense of scale.
Realistically, if a single nation-state on a single planet is already able to gather a force of millions for an invasion, a galaxy-spanning empire should be able to gather a force of billions, if not trillions, and still have plenty of troops to spare.

Ahh. Yes, the majority of the numbers GW throws around to show Imperial zerging are ridiculously low. However as far as in-universe is concerned, Armageddon is one of the most hotly contested zones in the Imperium, simply forcing a stalemate there is the crowning achievement of the Orks thus far (sans the actions of the Beast, which we know nothing about). Thus it's an immense show of Tau strength in relation to the other factions of the Galaxy that the force being sent to cull them is so much more massive then most of the others in Imperial conflict.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Assuming the Tau do number in the trillions on their planets (a little unlikely, considering their life span and relative youth as a race) the imperium doesn't have to conquer their worlds, they just have to get into orbit. That's going to be one of the main differences between pre-heresy era Imperium, and the current era imperium in the fluff. Pre-heresy, they were all about the expansion of the empire. In current 40k, they are all about maintaining/defending the empire, and well, if there has never been a human settlement on the tau planets they are attacking (which will be outside the empire), and they don't deem it to have worthy resources then it's cyclone missile time... Don't have to worry about killing all them tau with only 10 million guardsmen when you can deal with them with the click of a button.

The biggest danger to the tau empire is a formidable combined navy and astartes imperial flat and a high up particularly pure orzo xenos inquisitor who happens to be tagging along on the campaign.

The fact that the Imperium has spent millions of lives trying to fight the Tau on the ground is proof that simply burning the planet to the ground isn't an option to them, for whatever reason. Also, trying to fight them in space is silly because that removes the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau: numbers. Tau space-tech and space tactics are so advanced that they've wiped their ass with entire Tyranid splinter-fleets without losing a single ship- a feat the Imperium has never come even close to achieving.

RE numbers: ants have a life-span of like a month, yet number in the hundreds of billions (iirc). Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia. With an empire spanning multiple star-systems, it isn't at all unfeasible that they could number in the trillions by now.

one thing to consider is all the conficts with the Tau have been defensive, or attempting to recapture more recently lost worlds. I would imagine the nature of the war would change if and when the IoM ever started pushing into the Tau Empire's core. the war would be a blood ground battle only when the IoM is chewing through the Tau's human colonies. once that's over with (assuming for a moment the IoM can keep advancing) and the IoM is hitting worlds whose populations are Tau or other Xenos races? I imagine the campaign would take a new, and more brutal turn.

Exactly.

Also to note, if the greater of the tau's resources are non organic, then the trusty virus bomb can be utilised and the planets can be re-terrarformed after for mining.

Considering all the factors with tau, exterminatus of their worlds at the first opportunity is the only real tactic the imperium have unless they are willing to throw away numerous fleets, regiments and chapters plus all other supporting factions just to battle it out on the ground, where orbital superiority is not guaranteed, far from it and could leave forces stranded on the ground if fleets are forced to withdraw or destroyed.

That's an interesting campaign idea. All the Tau have been wiped out by virus bombs, and the Imperials have to come in and clean up the remaining drones and AI units that might still be active.

The question is, how effective will it be. Their vehicles are environmentally sealed, and there suits have complete life-support systems, to the point where they can survive "several cycles" underwater. Underground bases that are sealed off may remain unaffected, and the tau might have counter measures, either making a cure, or physically destroying the virus via nanobots withing the body. All in all, virus bombing would be the method of exterminatus least likely to work. Especially as you need to control the space above a planet to do so effectively.

It could be done via insertion teams against an unsuspecting world though, or on a fringe colony.

What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

The real question is, will the imperium take advantage of this fact, and if so, to attack them, or to ignore them. The tau can't really continue, and this would allow the imperium to pull back forces responding to the tau threat and use them elsewhere.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Exactly.

Also to note, if the greater of the tau's resources are non organic, then the trusty virus bomb can be utilised and the planets can be re-terrarformed after for mining.

Considering all the factors with tau, exterminatus of their worlds at the first opportunity is the only real tactic the imperium have unless they are willing to throw away numerous fleets, regiments and chapters plus all other supporting factions just to battle it out on the ground, where orbital superiority is not guaranteed, far from it and could leave forces stranded on the ground if fleets are forced to withdraw or destroyed.

Last I checked, the IoM can't terraform a planet. If they drop a virus bomb, then they can't use that planet anymore. Not even for mining because the air would be toxic and flammable.

Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

The Imperium maintains terraforming capabilities, they just don't use it frequently (since viruses do, eventually, die). The Life-Eater Virus, specifically, leaves a planet uninhabitable (since it burns the atmosphere off), but there are plenty of other viruses that humanity can deploy (and, given the amount of contact they've had with the Tau, they might even engineer a virus lethal to the Tau but harmless to humans).

Short life-spans can be circumvented with aggressive breeding, and considering how Tau caste life is like, it's likely that they have entire corps dedicated simply toward pumping out babies, ala Cadia

We know this to be untrue, since each Caste is a separate sub-species of the Tau, and do not seem capable of inter-breeding. Thus, to make more Earth Caste workers, you need to have Earth Caste members breeding. Same with the Fire Caste, Air Caste and Water Caste. It seems that breeding rights and the like are carefully controlled and maintained, as otherwise overpopulation becomes a very real concern.

Tau are not raised by nuclear families, instead being raised in communal creches, which instills the ideas of the community over the individual from an early age. This, again, will limit the growth of the population, as a creche can be only so big before more people are required to perform the tasks of child-raising, which means less people doing the work of the Caste. More people, of course, requires more resources, which requires more workers, and so forth and so on.

Rabbit-like population expansion is not really keeping with the structured society of the Tau.

Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

This is actually wrong. The Imperium does do research. The Ad Much are constantly inventing new stuff. It just proceeded at a snails pace through bureaucratic red tape that can last centuries.

Power armor, ship designs, and plasma and melta weaponry are examples of advancement. But they've fallen in other areas too so it evens out.

But its completely false to say the imperium isn't advancing.

It depends on who you read. Some authors have them advancing, others have them only "advancing" via STC templates. Whatever the case, unless the find the STC template for the Virusomatic 9000, I doubt they would be able to make the virus. Or by the time they do, the tau are probably going to be big enough to not be massive damaged over a world or two (or be dead).

They're definitely not making a computer virus any time soon, but they are advancing in other areas.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Consider that 1000 guard regiments, while small in relation to the entire Imperium, is still a huge force concentrated on one region of the Eastern Fringe. It's overkill to throw upwards of 4-10 million (assuming a regiment size of 4000-10000 soldiers) Guardsmen against a fledgling xenos empire when the Ultima Segmentum is barely able to maintain its borders with all the Tyranid Hive Fleets surging through it.

The big trouble with the Imperium is that they're in a lose lose situation. They focus too many forces on one area at the expense of others, or they spread themselves too thin and lose both areas.

4000-10000 soldiers is a ridiculously small number to throw at the Tau. Consider that we are talking about warfare on an interplanetary scale and then consider that the combined strength of the German army groups at the outset of Barbarossa was just shy of 4 million.

Right. What he's saying is that the Imperium is throwing 1,000 Regiments at the Tau, each regiment being (theoretically) between 4000 and 10,000 men. Thus 4-10 million men.

It's not always a good idea to use WW2 as an example. It was fought at the dawn of air power. An Imperial Guard regiment shows up with an entire naval fleet much of the time, and vast amounts of air and space assets at their disposal.

I think you're making a few mistakes in your analysis. 1) you're assuming the imperium has air and space supremacy from the get go and the fluff would have us believe that the Tau have access to formidable air and space craft capable of at least standing teo to toe with the IN, making this a variable. 2) you're characterizing the IG as a force capable of rapid redeployment when all their fluff points to them being a slow moving force hampered with logistical difficulties. 3) WW2 and early 20th century warfare is really the only comparison that can be brought in, not least because the world wars are the only conflicts in human history that give examples of comparable scales of operation, not to mention that the guard have clearly been designed to represent themes based on popular mythology of the western front in 1915-17. 4) the entire 40k fluff has made it abundantly clear that because of rule of cool, warfare is won and lost on the ground. Looking at it from a realistic perspective and marveling at how orbital supremacy doesn't win engagements instantly really isn't the way to go.

epronovost wrote:
I would add to Veteran Sergeant on that point. If you consider that the Imperial Guard has the capacity to deploy anywhere on a planet due to it's mastery of space travel, you could say that 4 million men is a massive number you don't need 10% of that number to seize a city let alone a select few building (Palace, Parliement, important millitary bases, etc.). Most of the soldiers send on any grand scale invasion like Hitler's plan for Russia or Napoleon's one required massive numbers of men and most of them were only useful to carry food, ammunition and control terrain taken from the ennemy by foward elements. Using stats from past wars to describe modern ones or even extrapolate on futuristic ones is the definition of anachronical reflexion.

Well, let's be real, 40k is not modern or "future" war. It's fantasy. It is however based on popular ideas of mostly WWI and WWII. The IG fights very much like how our popular culture has depicted combat in those conflicts. They are therefore, I think, comparable as the designers made a conscious choice to draw on those themes. As for your points about the number of actual combatants, true, but why would the same not be true about an IG regiment? To be honest, 10 million men is laughable as a force intended to take an entire planet from a competent defender engaged in symetrical warfare, let alone multiple star systems.

Also, it must be noted that wars are not won by seizing parliaments and military bases but by destroying or overwhelming the enemy's ability to propagate industrial scale war and maintain a wartime economy.

Whether or not the Imperial Guard can establish air/space supremacy early or late isn't really relevant. If they can establish it at any point, they can then wipe out otherwise impregnable ground defenses at a whim. The only time that ground battles in the 40K turn into WW2 style stalemates is when there is a desire to take the objectives intact (recovering AdMech factorums, hive cities, etc). If their only objective is to eradicate xeno presence from a planet, then all they need to do is eliminate the surface to space defenses and blast it from orbit. People get confused by stuff like the Siege of Vraks, Taros, or the war for Armageddon, thinking that must be the only way a war is fought in 40K, when it's probably a fairly inaccurate depiction of a normal campaign.

The IGuard doesn't need to grind Wermacht into oblivion and outlast its ability to make war. If it can make the Tau vulnerable ground targets, it can lance them from orbit, lol. It isn't like there's any consideration to civilian casualties when xenos are involved.

As far as what the "fluff says" about how warfare is won and lost, read some of the Battlefleet Gothic fluff. You'll find the fluff tends to be pretty complimentary of whatever style of combat they're trying to sell you miniature toys for.

That's my point though, they've been selling the Damocles Gulf campaign as your run of the mill 40k beat down, and for that they would need more than 10 million guardsmen. If extermination was their only goal then why wasn't orbital bombardment the deciding factor in the previous engagement? The answer is that 40k is is a soldiers game and orbital supremacy being the game changer is the exception rather than the rule. Hell, the imperium's modus operandi at Taros was to go all Montgomery on the Tau. That's just the way she goes.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The question is, how effective will it be. Their vehicles are environmentally sealed, and there suits have complete life-support systems, to the point where they can survive "several cycles" underwater. Underground bases that are sealed off may remain unaffected, and the tau might have counter measures, either making a cure, or physically destroying the virus via nanobots withing the body. All in all, virus bombing would be the method of exterminatus least likely to work. Especially as you need to control the space above a planet to do so effectively.

IIRC, the life eater virus can eat through armor as well, the only thing that would survive is stuff in bunkers.

Plus the virus isn't supposed to be the final measure. After the virus eats all organic life its exposed to, a cruiser then fires a single lance batter and ignites the entire planet and burns everything. Realistically, nothing should survive this as it would destroy the atmosphere and wreak havoc on the ability for life to even exist that requires oxygen.

Sounds more like sentient acid then a virus.

Nah, the Life Eater Virus works by infiltrating the cellular structure of living things and then forcibly converting each cell to a Life-eater Virus near-instantaneously. Thing is, the Life-eater Virus turns everything that doesn't get converted into a new virus into its base elemental components - which means lots of carbon and twice as much hydrogen, hence the firestorm.

 jhe90 wrote:
A huge impirial sledge hammer is about to hit home, assuming of course a black crusade or hive fleet don,t save them.

And if it degrades to attrition, the impirium can keep 10 million men up without a sweat 100 could be achieved with no effert on the grand scheme, more importantly in ship terms they have thousands more dock yards.

... you mean something like the 13th Black Crusade?

We're not worried- Abaddon is about to bend the Imperium over Cadia and run a train on it.

Remember- in timeline, Abaddon taking it hasn't happened yet. The Imperium will keep forces facing the Tau until they realize that Abaddon is winning, and then that sledgehammer gets redirected... I'm pretty sure that the High Lords realize that if Abaddon takes and holds Cadia, it's game over. Abaddon will eventually win. The Imperium will literally drop everything else they're doing to stop him. Tyranids, Orks, and Tau are just xenos... Abaddon the Despoiler is a traitor. It's personal.

*yawn* Next topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Come on, this is the imperium were talking about. They don't do any R&D, and they would probably end up creating a chaos virus anyway.

This is actually wrong. The Imperium does do research. The Ad Much are constantly inventing new stuff. It just proceeded at a snails pace through bureaucratic red tape that can last centuries.

Power armor, ship designs, and plasma and melta weaponry are examples of advancement. But they've fallen in other areas too so it evens out.

But its completely false to say the imperium isn't advancing.

Wasn't that before the Dark Mechanicum beat their loyalist counterparts in the HH?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

And that is why I preferenced it. The IoM gets so much fluff and none of it is controlled or organized so they end up basically having anything and everything with the only limit being they likely can't replace it..

LordBlades wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

Bfg has the manta and thunderhawk as sustainable ordnance, so on a space scale they are comparable.

Kroot spheres are tough old boats , not a lot of dakka sadly

It comes down to space conflict to me, the imperium out classes the tau in terms of top end vessels and numbers, so when you have more powerful foes that also outnumber you, that's a nasty mix.

nomotog wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, according to the x of Mars series, the Imperium can terraform planets.

And that is why I preferenced it. The IoM gets so much fluff and none of it is controlled or organized so they end up basically having anything and everything with the only limit being they likely can't replace it..

that's really the IoM all over. the tech likely exists SOMEWHERE. they just don't have it wide spread and everywhere. the new admech stuff is ample proof of this. some of their toys are pretty awesome. but it's not being widely disseminated

Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

But the biggest issue the Imperium face is supply issues, as we've learnt, in that they're simply not very good at getting the right forces in the right place when they're needed. Although there's the whole thing about 'they just need to aim the sledgehammer and strike home with it', it's a much more difficult task than has been illustrated in the this thread.

For something like Armageddon, where it's a pretty static objective that's going to be lasting for a while, and Imperial troops can take a while to get there, and be okay (I know it's a bad example, I can't think of a better one atm). But whilst this war is being fought in Tau territory, with the more reliable Tau drives (short range yeah, but they don't need to be long range) they're going to have a distinct advantage.

I know Tau are obviously going to have manpower issues in that they can't really match the attition rate of the Imperium, but the Imperium have inherent logistical problems (plus that whole thing about them finding it hard to travel to that particular area, even further limiting their logistial abilities), and although once that sledgehammer is in place, the Tau are going to find it difficult to stall it, it's going to take a very long time to draw it back for a proper offensive.

Every minute that the Imperium are getting ready, is a bonus to the Tau, as we've seen they're willing to actually change their tactics, evolve their technology, and adapt to the situation. Hey, the Tau aren't in such a bad position afterall.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

Also surprise, the admech has access to a lot better tech than most, I'm sure that includes advanced scanners watching the warp points etc. To lose a forgeworld is a disastor.

There might find the entire worlds defences ready and waiting on high alert and all militias and such called out and equipped.

 Formosa wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is worth considering is the Tau are severely over-extended.

Strategically, they've expanded enormously, but their rear-lines are largely undeveloped, relying on reinforcements from the 2nd and 1st Sphere territory via the Tau's slower FTL technology.

In theory, the Imperium could deploy fleets past the main Tau force, isolate them and grind them down via attrition. Do note as well, on the naval front, the tonnage of Tau vessels is well below Imperial vessels; even their biggest are roughly equivalent to Imperial Cruisers. Pound for pound, they have more advanced weaponry and better mobility, but Imperial battleships, and general superior numbers and strategic mobility count for a lot.

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Also, one can argue Imperium rear lines are more vulnerable to atrack, as there's likely a handful of Forge Worlds supporting the war effort, whereas Tau industry is more dustributed.

Also, Krrot Warspheres are exceedingly large and powerful, not sure uf up to par with Imperial Battleships though.

In regards to the Life-eater, Istvaan III atrocity has Dreadnoughts survive it. If the battlesuits are similarly sealed (which they seem to be), they would endure it as well.

Bfg has the manta and thunderhawk as sustainable ordnance, so on a space scale they are comparable.

Kroot spheres are tough old boats , not a lot of dakka sadly

It comes down to space conflict to me, the imperium out classes the tau in terms of top end vessels and numbers, so when you have more powerful foes that also outnumber you, that's a nasty mix.

Kroot warspheres are essentially giant hamsterballs.

 jhe90 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well if the impirium can get 5 minutes to stop and assemble, attack and sustain a single sledghammer campaign the Tau are doomed.

Only they have so many things to do they don,t have the time or rescorces to devote such force very often.

And attacking a impirial forgeworld?
Madness. Titans, armies, most advanced ships in IOM fleets. Better be well prepared

Also if desperate what they can unleash from their vaults....

Indeed. with the new admech forces we're finally getting a solid idea as to what's guarding a forge world other then "titans" and I think the Tau might have issues if they ran up against the type of stuff we've seen thus far

Also surprise, the admech has access to a lot better tech than most, I'm sure that includes advanced scanners watching the warp points etc. To lose a forgeworld is a disastor.

There might find the entire worlds defences ready and waiting on high alert and all militias and such called out and equipped.

With Tau not being constrained by Warp routes, I feel there's a decent chance they won't be detected before they enter system.

The defense capabilities of a Forge World also seem to vary greatly. At the lower end of the scale for example, in 'The Greater Good' novel of the Ciaphas Cain series, the Imperium is defending a Forge World in the region we're discussing and all the Mechanicum itself can muster are some Skitarii (a regiment IIRC). Definitely no fleet and no Titans.

Also, on the matter of GW/BL being clueless about scale: Acvording to IA3- The Taros Campaign, the Tau took Taros with 8-9000 Tau, 5000 Kroot, 9000 PDF and 200 aircraft...

That is hilarious.

Considering there are probably billions of fire caste, it does not sound good for the imperium!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That is hilarious.

Considering there are probably billions of fire caste, it does not sound good for the imperium!

we dunno how large the fire caste is. also remember in a defensive war a degree of your man power is always being "Wasted" garrisoning places the enemy MIGHT attack

The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

Billions doesn't mean much when the Imperium could lose several trillion people without even noticing the loss in population. It's billions of Tau to Quadrillions of Imperials. Even a tiny fraction of the Imperium's might rallied would crush the Tau through shear mass alone, much like a gigantic Ork assault, only shades of pink and brown instead of green.

That's sort of the point. I'm making fun of the GW writers bad sense of scale.

The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

eh don't be too sure, water caste are pilots yes, but they're also ship crew etc. I bet a LOT of them are in civilian occupations. merchant marines, bus drivers, that sort of thing. The Fire caste are soldiers sure, but I'm guessing they also fill emergancy services roles, such as policing and fire fighting.

Actually, tau have no police, because they have (at least within the tau) no crime. And fire-fighting is probably done with a combination of drone and earth caste. The fire caste is just for war, nothing else.

Air caste yes, the pilots start from Kor'vre rank. I assume lower ranks serve as starbase crew, ship crew, airfield ground personnel etc. I'm also sure they have at least a part in civilian duty (commerce and passengers transport). Fire Caste are all soldiers as far as I can tell though.

Air caste are interesting as they spend most of their lives on giant orbital cities and battle-stations.

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

This is not borne out by their performance comparisons in BFG. Mantas are treated as bombers with a 4+ save against interception. What does that mean? It means Mantas can carry anti-starship grade weaponry, while BFG fighter craft (like the Fury) are incapable of damaging a starship to any significant degree (i.e. they cannot inflict any damage in BFG terms to a starship). The fact a Manta also has a good chance of still being mission capable after interception also points to its durability from a combination of size and shielding. In contrast, a squadron of Furies after intercepting is out of action (at best it is returning to its carrier for re-arming). Again this means a squadron of Furies has a reasonable chance of not being able to incapacitate a Manta. In other words, the Manta outguns the Fury either way you look at it. The proper comparison for the Fury is against the Barracuda which is what is given as the BFG Tau fighter equivalent.

It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

Acvording to the only assesment of Manta performance in space combat I know of (3rd edition Tau codex via Lexicanum):

In space they are used to attack enemy starships and are a match for entire squadrons of Imperial starfighters.

If anyting, Fury is surprisingly lightly armed for its size, with only a pair of lascannons and 4(?) missiles

Iracundus wrote:


It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

My evidence is in the armament and size statistics provided for fluff purposes, not the BFG performances. I refuse to copy and paste tables to dakka though, so you can look them up yourselves;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Manta
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Scroll down to Techical Specifications.

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

Would it matter if Liechtenstein mobilized 150% for War if they choose to fight against Soviet Russia ?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

My evidence is in the armament and size statistics provided for fluff purposes, not the BFG performances. I refuse to copy and paste tables to dakka though, so you can look them up yourselves;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Manta
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Scroll down to Techical Specifications.

3rd party wikis are unreliable especially 40K wikia as they do not directly quote their sources and just dump a list of references (which may or may not actually state what is claimed in the entry). In particular, that Fury Inteceptor technical specification is suspect as I have most of those claimed sources and neither the Imperial Armour, nor any of the BFG sources give technical specs for a Fury. In fact the Imperial Armour 1 source for example that is cited, merely mentions the Fury in a one phrase which basically states the Thunderbolt fighter is not a true star fighter like a Fury. That is all that is said. The Warriors of Ultramar novel does not give the exact specs of a Fury and just reveals they are armed with an unspecific number of lascannons and missiles.

The Battlefleet Koronous source also gives no Fury specs at all!. Those are given in the Into the Storm Rogue Trader supplement (which isn't even cited on the page!). So the 40k wikia does not even cite correctly. There the Fury is given as having a cruising speed of 2,500 kph which is slower than the listed cruising speed for a Manta. The Fury has weapons there listed as 1 twin linked long barrelled lascannon for the forward gunner, and 2 pilot operated lascannon banks (each of 5 cannons each so 10 lascannons total), and 12 missiles of indeterminate type. So we have 12 lascannons and 12 missiles versus the Manta's 2 heavy railguns, 6 ion cannons, 16 burst cannons, and 10 seeker missiles. However this does not take into account anything like durability or the Manta's shields. There is incomplete information given in the RPG sources to conclude anything about size, mass, or maneuverability.

So of all the Fury sources "cited" in that wikia, I have personally checked and ruled out everything except Prince of Crows (as that is the only source I do not have) as they do not give the supposed information that would allow you to draw the conclusions you argue (namely that Furies are larger and outgun and outmaneuver Mantas) I highly doubt a 1 page citation from an anthology is going to provide full technical specs either.

Lesson: 3rd party sites like Lexicanum and 40K Wikia are not valid sources as their articles are often sprinkled with inaccuracies and paraphrased. To quote someone else who was talking about Lexicanum:

Lexicanum generally rewrites or paraphrase what GW has written and also throws in fan speculation as if it has weight to it, making it hard to tell how accurate it is. Generally unless you have the original material open whilst reading it, you can't tell where it is wrong making it a rather insidious source because it can and has perpetuated fan speculations as true when they aren't.

Iracundus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Actually, the biggest Tau vessels (Custodian class carrier) is roughly equal to a Grand Cruiser in tonnage, and it comes with 3 attached escorts. There's also Mantas, to which the Imperium has no equivalent as far as fighter craft go.

Mantas... kinda suck as space superiority craft. They spend too much of their tonnage playing at being dropships, so tonne for tonne, a Fury Interceptor massively out-guns and out-maneuvers the smaller Manta (Furies are 40m long, Mantas 32m).

This is not borne out by their performance comparisons in BFG. Mantas are treated as bombers with a 4+ save against interception. What does that mean? It means Mantas can carry anti-starship grade weaponry, while BFG fighter craft (like the Fury) are incapable of damaging a starship to any significant degree (i.e. they cannot inflict any damage in BFG terms to a starship). The fact a Manta also has a good chance of still being mission capable after interception also points to its durability from a combination of size and shielding. In contrast, a squadron of Furies after intercepting is out of action (at best it is returning to its carrier for re-arming). Again this means a squadron of Furies has a reasonable chance of not being able to incapacitate a Manta. In other words, the Manta outguns the Fury either way you look at it. The proper comparison for the Fury is against the Barracuda which is what is given as the BFG Tau fighter equivalent.

It's all fine and good to debate but at least use actual evidence in your points and not stuff that is actually untrue.

I already pointed this out lol, but thanks for backing me.

Thunderhawk Is the comparison to the manta in bfg, and eldar ord, all have the 4+ save, and yes while the manta can survive, its not that good at moving around and doesn't have the numbers, tau ord was 20cm wasn't it, and imperial was 25/30, cant remember the exact numbers

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

That statistic is meaningless by itself. What's that percentage of the whole?

I mean, almost everybody on this forum would be Earth Caste in the Tau empire. The Earth Caste represents the entirety of its civil-sector operations, from agriculture to industry and is referred to as "by far the most numerous". The number of active duty or veteran military here like myself is a tiny percentage of the population, even if we'd be a higher percentage than the pilots and diplomats. Though I'm not aware of the source that even puts the Fire Caste as second largest. The idea of 50% of the Tau population being a member of a warrior caste, whether Fire or Air, is fairly ludicrous.

Ah, technically I'd be Water caste, since I'm training to be a linguist.

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

Would it matter if Liechtenstein mobilized 150% for War if they choose to fight against Soviet Russia ?

Soviets'd likely not notice if they were being gang-banged by 'Merica, China, and Germany.

Like, ya know, the Imperium is being boned by Chaos, the Nids, and Necrons.

Plus orks. There're always Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

That statistic is meaningless by itself. What's that percentage of the whole?

I mean, almost everybody on this forum would be Earth Caste in the Tau empire. The Earth Caste represents the entirety of its civil-sector operations, from agriculture to industry and is referred to as "by far the most numerous". The number of active duty or veteran military here like myself is a tiny percentage of the population, even if we'd be a higher percentage than the pilots and diplomats. Though I'm not aware of the source that even puts the Fire Caste as second largest. The idea of 50% of the Tau population being a member of a warrior caste, whether Fire or Air, is fairly ludicrous.

It is, however, at least 25%. Based on US numbers, the IoM likely has less than .25% of its population in the Guard. After all, most troops are in PDF regiments... and the US has less than 1% in its military.

The variety of worlds and societies the Imperium has means that there are a lot of worlds without even modern technology.

The Tau Empire's superior mechanization means they can support a LOT more warriors with their population. As we all know, the average Fire Warrior carries a gun that outclasses the Imperium's elite of the elite of the elite. 99% of Guardsmen go into battle with weapons and armor that barely deserve to be called such.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
America'd likely not notice if they were being gang-banged by 'Merica

I think most would notice if they were 'gang-banged' by themselves.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
The Tau do have a big advantage in regard to the % of warriors though. Assuming Fire and Air Caste fight, this could easily mean up to 50% of the Tau adults fight. I'm willing to think on Imperial worlds the percentage is much smaller.

Would it matter if Liechtenstein mobilized 150% for War if they choose to fight against Soviet Russia ?

America'd likely not notice if they were being gang-banged by 'Merica, China, and Germany.

Like, ya know, the Imperium is being boned by Chaos, the Nids, and Necrons.

Plus orks. There're always Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The fire caste is the second biggest caste, behind earth. Considering the tau control multiple systems, and multiple worlds per system, It would not be a stretch to say that there are billions of fire caste.

That statistic is meaningless by itself. What's that percentage of the whole?

I mean, almost everybody on this forum would be Earth Caste in the Tau empire. The Earth Caste represents the entirety of its civil-sector operations, from agriculture to industry and is referred to as "by far the most numerous". The number of active duty or veteran military here like myself is a tiny percentage of the population, even if we'd be a higher percentage than the pilots and diplomats. Though I'm not aware of the source that even puts the Fire Caste as second largest. The idea of 50% of the Tau population being a member of a warrior caste, whether Fire or Air, is fairly ludicrous.

It is, however, at least 25%. Based on US numbers, the IoM likely has less than .25% of its population in the Guard. After all, most troops are in PDF regiments... and the US has less than 1% in its military.

The variety of worlds and societies the Imperium has means that there are a lot of worlds without even modern technology.

The Tau Empire's superior mechanization means they can support a LOT more warriors with their population. As we all know, the average Fire Warrior carries a gun that outclasses the Imperium's elite of the elite of the elite. 99% of Guardsmen go into battle with weapons and armor that barely deserve to be called such.

Not neccessarily. The Earth Caste could easily make up 80% or more of Tau population (as they would do pretty much everything that does not involve fighting, flying or diplomacy)
Comparing the Imperium to the US does not make a lot of sense, as they are not at all similar. The Imperium has worlds like Cadia and Krieg where the whole population is in the military or worlds like Vostroya where every first-born son is in the military. Overall, the Imperium is vastly more militaristic than any modern nation. Of course, most Imperial soldiers would serve in the PDF, but this would also be true for the Tau, as they have to garrison their worlds as well. Besides that, we know that every Imperial world has to supply a regular tithe of soldiers for the Imperial Guard which would imply that at least 10% of any world's population serves in the Imperial Guard. The technology level of a world does not matter because the Munitorum supplies them with flak armour and lasguns anyway.

On the note of the computer virus, remember that the Mechanicus still has access to the Contagium Mechanica.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
America'd likely not notice if they were being gang-banged by 'Merica

I think most would notice if they were 'gang-banged' by themselves.

Typo. I meant the soviets, in reference to the post I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not neccessarily. The Earth Caste could easily make up 80% or more of Tau population (as they would do pretty much everything that does not involve fighting, flying or diplomacy)
Comparing the Imperium to the US does not make a lot of sense, as they are not at all similar. The Imperium has worlds like Cadia and Krieg where the whole population is in the military or worlds like Vostroya where every first-born son is in the military. Overall, the Imperium is vastly more militaristic than any modern nation. Of course, most Imperial soldiers would serve in the PDF, but this would also be true for the Tau, as they have to garrison their worlds as well. Besides that, we know that every Imperial world has to supply a regular tithe of soldiers for the Imperial Guard which would imply that at least 10% of any world's population serves in the Imperial Guard. The technology level of a world does not matter because the Munitorum supplies them with flak armour and lasguns anyway.

The Earth Caste mostly direct and repair drones that do the "everything" for them. Tau society is far more automated than Imperial society.

While the Imperium has worlds liken Cadia and Krieg, for each of these, the Imperium needs dozens of worlds to provide arms, ammunition, food, raw materials, vehicle parts, ships, etc.Especially considering that the IoM has many areas of technology where it falls behind even modern America, it is unlikely that as much as 1% of the Imperium serves in the Guard, let alone 10%.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness on a realistic scale 10 million soldiers would be an accounting error for something the size of the IoM

"Oh, I seem to have misplaced a zero, and sent 10 million guardsmen to the eastern fringe."

"Eh."

This thread has sparked my curiosity to look for and read the sources. Having gone through Warzone Damocles, most of the Damocles Anthology and yet to drop by the FLGS to take a look at the AM codex, I don't really feel the Tau have failed nearly as badly as the OP of this thread seems to imply.

Agrellan was only a failure in keeping wuth Aun'Va's timetable. They did take the planet, with a few added bonuses on top:
- Implanting Skilltalker as a source of false intel
- Crippling the combat strength of an Astartes company. Even if it's not paid any heed in the book, the White Scars 3rd company has taken horrendous losses. At least 20-30 marines dead as described in the novellas, plus an added number of casualties not specified in the Thunderhawk crashes and fighting retreat to Agrellan Prime. I find it highly doubtful there are more than half of the White Scars still alive (assuming Codex Astartes 100 man standard). In addition they have lost all their air power (2 Thunderhawks and most/all Stormtalons) and a singificant number of vehicles (1 Whirlwind, 1 Razorback several Rhinos and quite a lot of Bikes).

Voltoris was poorly written IMO.

According to Warzone Damocles, the Third Sphere expansion has the biggest Fire Caste Army ever assembled, 'backed-up by millions of alien auxiliaries'. This leads me to believe Fire Warriors are also in the millions most likely(or at the very least hundreds of thousands).
Shadiwsun takes half of the Agrellan expedition to Voltoris.
After Voltoris Aun'Va (in the first novella of the Damocles Anthology) explains Shadowsun that the battle was a disaster and gives an exact number of Tau casualties. Around 8-900.

As I find it unlikely there were only 2-3000 Fire Warriors on Agrellan to feel the loss of 900 so keenly, it's difficult to reconcile the above. The best I can come up with:
The disaster Aun'Va talks about is more ideological than military. The Fire Caste loses heart when they learn their supreme commander was so throughly beaten.
Shadowsun took half of the fleet to Voltoris (fact given weigth by Warzone Damocles stating Shadowsun's fleet ournumbers the Imperium's, which is stated in a sidebar as having 1 Battle Barge and 5 Battleships) but either a small number of ground forces or se just decided to land a small number of her ground troops (enough to deal with what she saw).

LordBlades wrote:
This thread has sparked my curiosity to look for and read the sources. Having gone through Warzone Damocles, most of the Damocles Anthology and yet to drop by the FLGS to take a look at the AM codex, I don't really feel the Tau have failed nearly as badly as the OP of this thread seems to imply.

Agrellan was only a failure in keeping wuth Aun'Va's timetable. They did take the planet, with a few added bonuses on top:
- Implanting Skilltalker as a source of false intel
- Crippling the combat strength of an Astartes company. Even if it's not paid any heed in the book, the White Scars 3rd company has taken horrendous losses. At least 20-30 marines dead as described in the novellas, plus an added number of casualties not specified in the Thunderhawk crashes and fighting retreat to Agrellan Prime. I find it highly doubtful there are more than half of the White Scars still alive (assuming Codex Astartes 100 man standard). In addition they have lost all their air power (2 Thunderhawks and most/all Stormtalons) and a singificant number of vehicles (1 Whirlwind, 1 Razorback several Rhinos and quite a lot of Bikes).

Voltoris was poorly written IMO.

According to Warzone Damocles, the Third Sphere expansion has the biggest Fire Caste Army ever assembled, 'backed-up by millions of alien auxiliaries'. This leads me to believe Fire Warriors are also in the millions most likely(or at the very least hundreds of thousands).
Shadiwsun takes half of the Agrellan expedition to Voltoris.
After Voltoris Aun'Va (in the first novella of the Damocles Anthology) explains Shadowsun that the battle was a disaster and gives an exact number of Tau casualties. Around 8-900.

As I find it unlikely there were only 2-3000 Fire Warriors on Agrellan to feel the loss of 900 so keenly, it's difficult to reconcile the above. The best I can come up with:
The disaster Aun'Va talks about is more ideological than military. The Fire Caste loses heart when they learn their supreme commander was so throughly beaten.
Shadowsun took half of the fleet to Voltoris (fact given weigth by Warzone Damocles stating Shadowsun's fleet ournumbers the Imperium's, which is stated in a sidebar as having 1 Battle Barge and 5 Battleships) but either a small number of ground forces or se just decided to land a small number of her ground troops (enough to deal with what she saw).

One thing to remember is that a disaster by Tau standards is a resounding success by Imperial ones.

Every Tau life is important to the Greater Good. Every death is a tragedy, no matter how necessary.

In contrast, if 100 trillion human lives died defending a barren world whose only feature was an Imperial shrine that was 10 feet by 10 feet, the only tragedy would be accidental damage to the shrine.

Human life, to the Imperium, is literally worthless.

*Excepting the opinions of a vast minority of Space Marine chapters.

Ok, not sure if it's been posted already but!

I picked up the Farsight Enclave supplement and on the timeline page, 36-37, the final entry dated 998.M41 is headed as "The Revelation of the Kauyon" stating that Farsight has realised the greater scheme for the Damocles Gulf being one giant application of the Kauyon. Feigning retreat into the empire only to over extend and smash the Imperium.

Take that information as you will, and for those that don't know Kauyon means patient hunter and it revolves around baiting the enemy towards a trap.

I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

 ScootaRM wrote:
Ok, not sure if it's been posted already but!

I picked up the Farsight Enclave supplement and on the timeline page, 36-37, the final entry dated 998.M41 is headed as "The Revelation of the Kauyon" stating that Farsight has realised the greater scheme for the Damocles Gulf being one giant application of the Kauyon. Feigning retreat into the empire only to over extend and smash the Imperium.

Take that information as you will, and for those that don't know Kauyon means patient hunter and it revolves around baiting the enemy towards a trap.

that could work out eaither way for the Tau it's not a bad stragety, trading land for time and to over stretch your enemy (WW2 Russia comes to mind) it could however back fire, spectacularly, on the Tau. The Tau apparently don't fully understand the sheer size and scope of the IoM (you'd think their human allies would have explained it, but It's possiable it's so much bigger then their empire they simply can't conceive of something the size of the IoM actually existing) so it's possiable the Tau will pull back and attempt to feint out the IoM only to realize they've given the steamroller too much inertia to stop.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ScootaRM wrote:
Ok, not sure if it's been posted already but!

I picked up the Farsight Enclave supplement and on the timeline page, 36-37, the final entry dated 998.M41 is headed as "The Revelation of the Kauyon" stating that Farsight has realised the greater scheme for the Damocles Gulf being one giant application of the Kauyon. Feigning retreat into the empire only to over extend and smash the Imperium.

Take that information as you will, and for those that don't know Kauyon means patient hunter and it revolves around baiting the enemy towards a trap.

that could work out eaither way for the Tau it's not a bad stragety, trading land for time and to over stretch your enemy (WW2 Russia comes to mind) it could however back fire, spectacularly, on the Tau. The Tau apparently don't fully understand the sheer size and scope of the IoM (you'd think their human allies would have explained it, but It's possiable it's so much bigger then their empire they simply can't conceive of something the size of the IoM actually existing) so it's possiable the Tau will pull back and attempt to feint out the IoM only to realize they've given the steamroller too much inertia to stop.

It is also quite possible that even their human allies are not aware of the true size of the Imperium. How much does the average human citizen or soldier know about the galaxy beyond his own homeworld?
Trading land for time would be a very bad strategy for the Tau, as they would run out of land long before the Imperium runs out of soldiers and supplies. The Tau also have the added problem of being assaulted on two fronts, by the Tyranids also (and add to that the occasional Ork invasion and the Dark Eldar showing up wherever they want) I think the Tau would sooner overstretch themselves than the Imperium.

LordBlades wrote:
I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

Did it specify how much Plot armor did the Space Marines bring with them?
Plus the Exsanguinators are Space Vampires according to recent artwork.

 Khonsu wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

Did it specify how much Plot armor did the Space Marines bring with them?
Plus the Exsanguinators are Space Vampires according to recent artwork.

It's the Tau that get plot armor on this one.

The 13th Black Crusade forces those regiments to be rerouted to the Eye of Terror.

Come on, guyz. It's stories about tau. No-name legions that noone has heard about and guardsmen who are there to die in droves. Tau will once again 'invent' something and the enemy will appear to be composed of morons with plant IQ.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

Did it specify how much Plot armor did the Space Marines bring with them?
Plus the Exsanguinators are Space Vampires according to recent artwork.

It's the Tau that get plot armor on this one.

The 13th Black Crusade forces those regiments to be rerouted to the Eye of Terror.

except they apper to have been dispatched at the same time. it's hard to tell what'll happen.

The trouble that Tau has is that the Tyranids think the are tasty.

The Tau Empire wasnt in the advance line of the nids before, but around the time of the Damocles campaign that was starting to change.

Assuming we are now talking about a second Damocles war, as the first was covered in old fluff, it will be about this time that Shadowsun has early successes against the nids.

The trouble is nids have numbers, even by ork and human standards, but they also concentrate those numbers heavily.

The Tau have limited resources and a battl;e of attrition with the nids is a battle against extinction. Tau will win that locally, but it will absorb a lot of their focus, wheras the Imperium, while horribly pressed by the nids is not pressed in the immediate sectors, as the Tau are in the way of the hive fleets.

Fighting the nids and the Imperium at the same time in major confrontations is likely to be too much for the Tau empire. Territory will be lost.

It doesn't help that some of the local Waarghs are getting hardened to fighting Tau, gaining better Dakka and in some cases copying Kauyon.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

Did it specify how much Plot armor did the Space Marines bring with them?
Plus the Exsanguinators are Space Vampires according to recent artwork.

It's the Tau that get plot armor on this one.

The 13th Black Crusade forces those regiments to be rerouted to the Eye of Terror.

except they apper to have been dispatched at the same time. it's hard to tell what'll happen.

IIRC, the timeline entry in the AM codex is just before the initial phase of 13th black crusade, when all was still sunshine and rainbows on Cadia, so they might get rerouted.

Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only ournumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I got to take a look at the AM codex this afternoon, and on a closer look the mighty imperial army heading toward the Damocles Gulf might not be as mighty, at least in the elite troops department.

It does indeed contain 1000 regiments of 'Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen' and in that is a mighty force.

However it only contains 'several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines' which are most likely less marines than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade (which included forces from 8 different chapters) and a single titan legion nobody has heard about until now (Legio Absolutium).

Did it specify how much Plot armor did the Space Marines bring with them?
Plus the Exsanguinators are Space Vampires according to recent artwork.

It's the Tau that get plot armor on this one.

The 13th Black Crusade forces those regiments to be rerouted to the Eye of Terror.

except they apper to have been dispatched at the same time. it's hard to tell what'll happen.

IIRC, the timeline entry in the AM codex is just before the initial phase of 13th black crusade, when all was still sunshine and rainbows on Cadia, so they might get rerouted.

Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only ournumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

They are in the same timeframe. The deployment to Agrellax (757.999.M41) occurs just a few year fractions before the first events of the 13th Black Crusade (795.999.M41)
I do not think they will be redeployed, as they are on the other side of the galaxy. The 13th Black Crusade would be pretty much over when they finally arrive.
My money is on the Tau as well. It does not matter how strong the Imperial forces are, the Tau have plot armour. Ridiculous amounts of plot armour. GW is not going to kill one of its main factions. At best for the Imperium, they will succeed in retaking Agrellax before fighting to a stalemate.

This is 40k, everything has plot armor when necessary, except for Chaos. Chaos almost always gets cast in the incompetent cartoon villain role.

LordBlades wrote:
This is 40k, everything has plot armor when necessary, except for Chaos. Chaos almost always gets cast in the incompetent cartoon villain role.

That is true for all fiction. The heroes get plot armour, the villains always lose in the end.
Except in WHFB. There Chaos won and consumed all. (And Chaos Gods being who they are, couldn't care less about it)

It's the Tau that get plot armor on this one.

Really? Go for plot armor , instead of well thought fluff??

The 13th Black Crusade forces those regiments to be rerouted to the Eye of Terror.

Forces in transit are never rerouted. The largest military force in this Galaxy ( codex IG ) and its billions of Regiments ( codex IG ) won't have to hop back and forth, they just send someone else to deal with the silly 1st captain of the sons of horus.
( The Rock on its intercept course is maybe already too much for him ).

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Iron_Captain wrote:

My money is on the Tau as well. It does not matter how strong the Imperial forces are, the Tau have plot armour. Ridiculous amounts of plot armour.

Another one who likes to part with his monies....

Plot armor is switched on and off by the author.

LordBlades wrote:This is 40k, everything has plot armor when necessary, except for Chaos. Chaos almost always gets cast in the incompetent cartoon villain role.

The Imperial Guard doesn't use this plot armor. They are ok with their flak armor.

I wouldn't bet on plot armor.
We don't have a IG supplement. ( and the IG could have more than one without being silly ). We don't have a Tau release rumor. ( but maybe Space marines in summer ). So who is going to stand there with his pants down??


Agrellan is a world, where the curtain to the warp is pretty thin and demonic incursions would be easier without the Imperials who know how to keep em out.
Possible outcome: Agrellan is most likely lost to chaos and the IoM and the Tau are not having the prize they desired....
Additionally, the Tau are cut off if they lose Agrellan and the Humans lose a warp route.
To run away could also go wrong for the Tau Empire. Shadowsun isn't without trouble. May join Farsight...

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Taking a look at the fire warrior vs. imperial guardsman, according to both Tabletop Stats as well as FFGs Rogue Trader (the only system AFAIK that includes both humans as well as Tau and Kroot as playable races).

The average Guardsman has a Lasgun (S3 AP- in Tabletop, 1d10+3, Pen 0, S/2/- in Rogue Trader) and Flak armor (5+ in tabletop, 3 armor in Rogue Trader), while the Fire Warrior has a Pulse Rilfe (S5 AP5 in tabletop, 2d10+3 pen 4, S/3/5 in Rogue Trader) and Fire Warrior Armor (4+ on the Tabletop, 6 armor in Rogue Trader, roughly equivalent to Carapace in both systems).

A guardsman firing at a fire warrior will find it's armor quite effective at blocking lasgun shots (blocking it half of the time in tabletop, and reducing it from 8.5 average to 2.5 average damage in Rogue Trader) and that it takes 4-5 shots to take down a Fire Warrior.

Meanwhile, a Fire Warrior shooting a guardsman will fid the target's armor is little more than tissue paper (ignored in both systems) and that if a shot connects, the guardsman is usually dead (wounds on 2+ in Tabletop, and needs a singificantly below average 2d10 result not to kill in Rogue Trader as well). Additionally, a Pulse Rifle has more range (in both systems) and more accuracy in Rogue Trader (gyro-stabilized and Full auto fire option).

Add to that the fact that Tau heavy weapons (mounted on battlesuits) are way more resilient and mobile than Guard heavy weapons team, that Tau Hunter Cadres are combined arms units while Guard relies on dedicated regiments of Infantry, tanks, artillery etc. and that the Tau seem (to me at least) to have a lot more mechanized means compared to the number of troops than Guard I think it's fair to assess that the Tau fire caste can handle many time their numbers in Imperial Guardsmen.

Kroot are also better than their Guard counterparts in their intended role (ambushers and melee troops). Regarding melee, the kroot rifles tear through guardsmen in tabletop (AP 5) and according to Rogue Trader the kroot are almost as physically strong as marines (same Unnatural Strength x2 but lesser base Strength). Their Armor, even if it's objectively worse than guard Flak, protects them more against blades and bayonettes that Flak does against kroot rifles. As ambushers they're also better. In tabletop they actually get Stealth (forests), and according to Rogue Trader they actually have some kindreds (the Stalker kindred) that can even hide more or less in plain sight.

There's also very little to indicate that the other alien mercenaries (Tarellians, Gue'vesa etc.) are in any way significantly less capable than guardsmen.

Based on that, I feel that 4-5 million of Tau+allies vs. 10-12 million guardsmen isn't a situation Guard is likely to win.

 1hadhq wrote:
We don't have a IG supplement. ( and the IG could have more than one without being silly ). We don't have a Tau release rumor. ( but maybe Space marines in summer ). So who is going to stand there with his pants down??

Actually. AFAIK the full release rumors for autumn include:
SM codex
Tau vs. SM (likely Raven Guard) box set
Tau codex

So IMO it's very likely the SM codex will depict IoM winning, then the box set will elaborate on the story Shield of Baal style, then the Tau codex will have the Tau turning the tide in the end.

you're forgetting tau vs IG won't be a fair fight, yeah man for man the tau are better then the IG. unfortunatly for the Tau the IG has ten men for every 1 they have. also there are the other formations of the imperial military, space marines, titans skitarii.. sisters of battle etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
you're forgetting tau vs IG won't be a fair fight, yeah man for man the tau are better then the IG. unfortunatly for the Tau the IG has ten men for every 1 they have. also there are the other formations of the imperial military, space marines, titans skitarii.. sisters of battle etc.

I was referring just to the force that the AM Codex states to be on the way to the Damocles area: 1000 guard regiments, several SM companies (but likely less than took part in the first Damocles Gulf Crusade) and a single titan legion. If the 1000 guard regiments don't total significantly more than 10-12 million guardsmen, then I believe this force is insufficient to beat back the Tau.

Isn't the 1000 Imperial Guard regiment and Space Marines company reinforcement? There is already a lot of human forces fighting the Tau in the region. The battles were already fierce. The Imperium is just sending reinforcement to drown the tau in numbers and force them to retreat and crumble under the weigth of the ennemy. It's the end game for the Tau Empire. Can they defeat an imperial army of that size while being attacked by Tyranids or will it be their end?

epronovost wrote:
Isn't the 1000 Imperial Guard regiment and Space Marines company reinforcement? There is already a lot of human forces fighting the Tau in the region. The battles were already fierce. The Imperium is just sending reinforcement to drown the tau in numbers and force them to retreat and crumble under the weigth of the ennemy. It's the end game for the Tau Empire. Can they defeat an imperial army of that size while being attacked by Tyranids or will it be their end?

It's debatable that there's that many human forces in the Damocles area atm beyond PDF and planetary garrisons.

The army that pushed back the Tau in the Zeist campaign has been apparently reassigned according to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zeist_Campaign and there's nothing that I know of to indicate the IoM didn't throw all they had at Agrellan, place out of which not much came out (only a handful of Guard regiments, less than half of the knights and the two SM companies, the White Scars badly mauled in the process).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
This thread has sparked my curiosity to look for and read the sources. Having gone through Warzone Damocles, most of the Damocles Anthology and yet to drop by the FLGS to take a look at the AM codex, I don't really feel the Tau have failed nearly as badly as the OP of this thread seems to imply.

Agrellan was only a failure in keeping wuth Aun'Va's timetable. They did take the planet, with a few added bonuses on top:
- Implanting Skilltalker as a source of false intel
- Crippling the combat strength of an Astartes company. Even if it's not paid any heed in the book, the White Scars 3rd company has taken horrendous losses. At least 20-30 marines dead as described in the novellas, plus an added number of casualties not specified in the Thunderhawk crashes and fighting retreat to Agrellan Prime. I find it highly doubtful there are more than half of the White Scars still alive (assuming Codex Astartes 100 man standard). In addition they have lost all their air power (2 Thunderhawks and most/all Stormtalons) and a singificant number of vehicles (1 Whirlwind, 1 Razorback several Rhinos and quite a lot of Bikes).

Voltoris was poorly written IMO.

According to Warzone Damocles, the Third Sphere expansion has the biggest Fire Caste Army ever assembled, 'backed-up by millions of alien auxiliaries'. This leads me to believe Fire Warriors are also in the millions most likely(or at the very least hundreds of thousands).
Shadiwsun takes half of the Agrellan expedition to Voltoris.
After Voltoris Aun'Va (in the first novella of the Damocles Anthology) explains Shadowsun that the battle was a disaster and gives an exact number of Tau casualties. Around 8-900.

As I find it unlikely there were only 2-3000 Fire Warriors on Agrellan to feel the loss of 900 so keenly, it's difficult to reconcile the above. The best I can come up with:
The disaster Aun'Va talks about is more ideological than military. The Fire Caste loses heart when they learn their supreme commander was so throughly beaten.
Shadowsun took half of the fleet to Voltoris (fact given weigth by Warzone Damocles stating Shadowsun's fleet ournumbers the Imperium's, which is stated in a sidebar as having 1 Battle Barge and 5 Battleships) but either a small number of ground forces or se just decided to land a small number of her ground troops (enough to deal with what she saw).

One thing to remember is that a disaster by Tau standards is a resounding success by Imperial ones.

Every Tau life is important to the Greater Good. Every death is a tragedy, no matter how necessary.

In contrast, if 100 trillion human lives died defending a barren world whose only feature was an Imperial shrine that was 10 feet by 10 feet, the only tragedy would be accidental damage to the shrine.

Human life, to the Imperium, is literally worthless.

*Excepting the opinions of a vast minority of Space Marine chapters.

That is absolutely not true. The person in Segmentum Command who ordered such a defense would be shot for a gross waste of resources. Remember, to the Imperium life is the Emperor's currency and wasting it needlessly is something they will not typically do. Commander Chenkov is a notable exception.

An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

That is true and that probably has to do with how much more vast the Imperium is compared to the Tau Empire. To the Imperium a loss of 10 million soldiers on any given day is less than nothing. To the Tau Empire a loss of 10 million Fire Warriors in a single day would be a huge loss for them.

LordBlades wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Isn't the 1000 Imperial Guard regiment and Space Marines company reinforcement? There is already a lot of human forces fighting the Tau in the region. The battles were already fierce. The Imperium is just sending reinforcement to drown the tau in numbers and force them to retreat and crumble under the weigth of the ennemy. It's the end game for the Tau Empire. Can they defeat an imperial army of that size while being attacked by Tyranids or will it be their end?

It's debatable that there's that many human forces in the Damocles area atm beyond PDF and planetary garrisons.

The army that pushed back the Tau in the Zeist campaign has been apparently reassigned according to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zeist_Campaign and there's nothing that I know of to indicate the IoM didn't throw all they had at Agrellan, place out of which not much came out (only a handful of Guard regiments, less than half of the knights and the two SM companies, the White Scars badly mauled in the process).

The lex article is referencing 5th edition SM Codex - depends if you consider the more recent stuff - like in BL as the current "truth".

Just read the Damocles short story collection which (as usual) changes the story quite a bit.............it also suffers from the usual issues with numbers - a vast planetary invasion force losses half its number on Voltoris - 900 dead?

The fleet size is also confusing...........

I didn't find the stories went well together tbh - I really enjoyed Broken Sword and last story but the other two were not great................

the White Scar Loses are not insignificant but they also inflict pretty huge loses on the elite forces of the Tau and in particular defeat (again) Shadowsun.

Lastly Aun'Va seems very similar to the most idiotic commanders of the Imperium which does not bode well for the Tau............... he is proud, arrogant, unwilling to listen and makes military decisions for political reasons.

Sometimes it's best to imagines they mean squads/platoons dead. It makes life easier (and 40k look less stupidly written).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

That is true and that probably has to do with how much more vast the Imperium is compared to the Tau Empire. To the Imperium a loss of 10 million soldiers on any given day is less than nothing. To the Tau Empire a loss of 10 million Fire Warriors in a single day would be a huge loss for them.

Yep, the #1 resource of the imperium is manpower.

The guardsmen can also overcharge their lasguns to add some pretty mean damage.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The guardsmen can also overcharge their lasguns to add some pretty mean damage.

This is usually the fact that gets overlooked.

Lasgun can be used on various frequencies to increase the power output (depending on the model).
However, it can ruin the barrel (standard lasgun barrel isn't rated for continuous use of high-power output IIRC) and damage/destroy(/explode) the power-pack (again, both depending on the model. Some versions are rated for continuous high-energy output).
Although it can be fitted with heavier barrel and hot-shot power-pack to make it more heavy-hitting.

How powerful is the overcharged mode anyway. On par with a bolter, more, less?

Same damage than a bolter (in OW), but less AP, I think, no sure about a bolter AP

So about S:4 AP:6

Other patterns have special models, like felling or accurate mode. There's also the Krieg pattern which is as strong as a bolter, I think, with no AP, no overload less ammo and single shot only.

LordBlades wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Taking a look at the fire warrior vs. imperial guardsman, according to both Tabletop Stats <snip>

40k Background.
Not 40k tactics, or proposed rules etc...

LordBlades wrote:

Based on that, I feel that 4-5 million of Tau+allies vs. 10-12 million guardsmen isn't a situation Guard is likely to win.

There aren't 4-5 million of Tau + allies.

LordBlades wrote:

Actually. AFAIK the full release rumors for autumn include:
SM codex
Tau vs. SM (likely Raven Guard) box set
Tau codex

So IMO it's very likely the SM codex will depict IoM winning, then the box set will elaborate on the story Shield of Baal style, then the Tau codex will have the Tau turning the tide in the end.

And GW does a full stop and releases nothing afterwards?
IG would still be 6th ed. IG is the main factor here.
There is always only 1 Tau dex. But multiple Imperial ones.

I find it highly unlikely that there aren't hundreds of millions of fire caste in a single sept. Considering even small populations on each planet (5 billion or so), and a below average fire caste rate in a place of constant war (say 10%) that's still five hundred million fire caste per planet, with each sept being at least one star system, and tau being the master colonizers that they are, that could mean billions of fire caste per sept. Even if it was at 1%, that's still 50 million per world. Heck, the current US military is slightly less than .5%, and we aren't in constant, life or death war, with a dedicated warrior caste as out military.

Simply put, GW doesn't know how population works, and tau forces regularly wipe out forces 3-4 times there size. Not without casualties mind you.

Compared to the IG the tau have better weapons, armor, surveillance and stealth tech, transport, ect. Their tactics tend to wreck guard, even on imperial controlled planets. And they are willing to constantly try new tactics as well.

At current level, the amount of manpower for the imperium to actually wipe tau out would drain the imperium's current recourses to the point, where they would start losing other, possibly more vital, battles.

The imperium could wipe the tau off the face of the map, but it would do them more bad then good in the long run.

Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Taking a look at the fire warrior vs. imperial guardsman, according to both Tabletop Stats <snip>

40k Background.
Not 40k tactics, or proposed rules etc...

So in your view the way stuff happens in the rules of 40k tabletop and RPGs, like pulse rifles punching straight through flak armor every time etc. does not happen in fluff unless you see 'pulse rifles punch through flak armor' somewhere in the fluff? Is that what you're trying to say?

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Based on that, I feel that 4-5 million of Tau+allies vs. 10-12 million guardsmen isn't a situation Guard is likely to win.

There aren't 4-5 million of Tau + allies

Citation needed. Warzone Damocles explicitly states that only the Tau allies are 'several million'

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.
The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

Tau ships stopped being primitive a while ago, especially the newer ones, designed from the ground up as warships. IIRC from BFG books, the Kor'Or'Vesh initiative (which resulted in the newest Tau warship designs) was meant to make Tau no longer outmatched in space against Orks, IoM and Tyranids.

According to Lexicanum (not always 100% reliable, but can't reach the relevant books now), most new generation Tau vessels can fight their IoM counterparts on even terms, except the Custodian carrier, which us more of a grand cruiser/carrier hybrid than a true battleship.

just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

BrianDavion wrote:
just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

The IoM has better speed, but also their Warp travel is less reliable than Tau's. Tau could employ meaningful military maneuvers on the star map, feints, simultaneous attacks etc. while the Imperium is still hadicapped by the fact that its tacticians don't have a meaningful answer to 'how long does it take for a ship to go from point A to point B and how many crewmen get eaten by daemons on the way'.

Fact is that the Tau navy troubled the IoM greatly during the Damocles Gulf Crusade and that the Tau navy seems to have improved considerably in the meantime (several new ship types).

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

The IoM has better speed, but also their Warp travel is less reliable than Tau's. Tau could employ meaningful military maneuvers on the star map, feints, simultaneous attacks etc. while the Imperium is still hadicapped by the fact that its tacticians don't have a meaningful answer to 'how long does it take for a ship to go from point A to point B and how many crewmen get eaten by daemons on the way'.

Fact is that the Tau navy troubled the IoM greatly during the Damocles Gulf Crusade and that the Tau navy seems to have improved considerably in the meantime (several new ship types).

The Tau also do not have FTL communications which is essential for the sort of missions you are talking about - unless they are now using their psychic allies to transmit info they are still relying on message boats which is horribly slow compared to Astropaths?

The original Damocles Campaign devastated the Tau fleet and base units with relative impunity - only the larger bases and the Kroot War Sphere causing issues until they were able to muster substantial fleet. tau warships have improved considerably but they will be having to rotate and replace ships and crew to do this.

Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

Bobthehero wrote:Same damage than a bolter (in OW), but less AP, I think, no sure about a bolter AP
So about S:4 AP:6

With more AP. Bolter is mainly meant against organic targets with limited armour (ie. Orks).
Full-powered lasgun would be more like S:3 AP:4, since it can kill a guy behind steel door, and penetrate soft armour of Astartes Power Armour.

LordBlades wrote:Something else that just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.
How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

All the might in Ultima Segmentum. 13th Black Crusade can be contained with resources from Segmentums Obscurus, Pacificus and Solar. Even the Ultramar sector would have enough power to crush Tau if they wanted. Eventually, they'll get nommed by Behemoth.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
All the might in Ultima Segmentum. 13th Black Crusade can be contained with resources from Segmentums Obscurus, Pacificus and Solar. Even the Ultramar sector would have enough power to crush Tau if they wanted. Eventually, they'll get nommed by Behemoth.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt the IoM will risk it though. They can't possibly know exactly what Abaddon has hidden in the Eye of Terror so I highly doubt they'll risk it. I doubt 'we pushed Tau back across the Damocles gulf will be any consolation to anyone if Cadia falls.

I agree though, Ultramar will eventually get nommed. The Imperial Navy won't be always willing/able to sail off from Bakka qnd go halfway around the galaxy to gently pick the smurfs by their hands and pull them out of gak :p

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

That's the thing, they don't have them spare right now. The imperium is being attacked from all angles, and it's barely holding a lot of them off. Heck, the ultramarine home world almost got devoured by 'nids. It's called "the time of ending" for a reason.

Now the tau can't attack with impunity, and can be driven back, just not fully defeated at this time. Besides, any savy leader would realize that the tau will act as a buffer against the 'nids.

Also, the tau have brought their navy up to par. They now use actual warships, instead of retrofitted freighters.

Do the Tau still have FTL communication issues - I don;t have the current codex?

The Tau Navy is certainly getting better - possibily on a par with basic Imperial Cruisers and Battlecruisers. If they have more reliable but slower warp driveers but no FTL comms then they are going to suffer as they try to expand.

Also the Tau are also not just fighting the Imperium - they have now come to the notice of the Dark Eldar who have stripped at least one Tau world of its enitre population for a laugh, the Necrons have wiped out another world and the Tau have the usual tryranid and ork porblems that everyone else faces.

On the other hand - they are seemingly enlisting more and more races - the "mind worms" seem very useufl for interogation and mind controlluing Inquisitors..................

They don't have FTL comms, which certainly hurts them, but not quite as much as it would hurt the imperium. They are in a very densely packed. Still not preferable though.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

Not true. The Imperium is losing territory to just about every other faction in the game. They don't have much of anything to spare- they're bailing as much water as they can out of a sinking ship and it's still, slowly, going down.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

Before GW retconned the 13th Black Crusade, the answer was "not much" and Abaddon STILL sacked Cadia.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Not true. The Imperium is losing territory to just about every other faction in the game. They don't have much of anything to spare- they're bailing as much water as they can out of a sinking ship and it's still, slowly, going down.

Debatable. The Imperium is still the empire of a million worlds. Every major faction could take a thousand worlds and it wouldn't have much impact on Imperial manpower. The Adeptus Mechanicus still has technology it only brings to bear when, for instance, Forgeworlds are about to fall. The various armed forces of the Imperium are still deliberately handicapped in order to reduce the danger from traitors. While the Imperium may be declining it is not doing so quickly and is still capable of going on the offensive.

Sure, the Imperium is losing territory. But its a very slow loss. And that still leaves them with countless(literally) soldiers to throw away.

My conservative population estimates for the Imperium is ~101-102 quadrillion, a very conservative estimate btw.

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

because they could likely supply both as needed. as I said, the IG is deliberatly equipped so as to be reasonably easy to supply across the entire galaxy. it's why IG's use lasguns instead of boltguns or Galvanic rifles or something

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

because they could likely supply both as needed. as I said, the IG is deliberatly equipped so as to be reasonably easy to supply across the entire galaxy. it's why IG's use lasguns instead of boltguns or Galvanic rifles or something

Winning a war will be about much more than supplying ammo, lasguns and Leman Russes, unless the goal is scratch the paint off Tau armor.
The navy will need ships and aircraft.
The marines will also need replacement gear, which is not easy to produce.
All branches of the war effort will need a constant stream of manpower to keep operating for extended periods of time.

While one can assume that the forces of Cadia are reasonably well supplied , I don't see how it can't be argued they are not in need of more men, heavy gear and ships as long as there still are Chaos ground forces on Cadia.

Tau "Hero" class cruisers, the pinnacle of their naval technology built after the Damocles Gulf Crusade, is roughly comparable to the Lunar class Cruiser. -BFG Armada Pg 130.

Tau orbital supremacy is not a given. What little experience I had with BFG was that Tau were ideal for imperial fleets. The imperials moved faster, had access to longer range weapons, and both would attempt to close frontally. If the Tau did not cripple the imperium's forces as they closed the resulting boarding actions and close in fighting favored the imperial craft due to the penalties to Tau close in combat.

The Tau overall may be able to muster more troops, but they cannot garrison them all on every planet. The imperium, with it's faster warp travel could simply bypass major Tau strength and hit the weaker Tau systems. Unlike the ground, the Tau would not be able to play patient hunter or give ground, they would be forced to defend the large orbitals and support systems in orbit. That puts them at a disadvantage vs. the Imperium which prefers large decisive battles.

While the Tau Etherials would certainly tell their people this is all part of a larger plan, you can't argue that is 100% certain. The Etherials already lie and manipulate the Tau castes, and conceal knowledge from them. They could easily spread propaganda in order to maintain support of their allies and keep up moral, such as their defeats being intentional as part of a larger plan.

Even with the third wave expansion the Tau controlled space is smaller then Maccragge. If one SM chapter and a PDF can hold that with an active Ork empire next door, the Tau could certainly be defeated by two chapters and several hundred regiments.

I've often thought that the best way to attack the Tau would be to have Inqusitors following tau defeats start trying to unraval their confederacy. convincing the Kroot, just for example, that of they withdraw from the tau empire, and "trouble the IoM no longer" they'll be left alone. I think the loss of even one or two vassel races (particularly if they're key ones) could absolutly cripple the Tau

Tau expansion fails for four reasons

1. The Tau can't use warp travel like the Imperium making it much harder to have a large Empire.
2. The Tau can't control humans with pheromones like they can other species.
3. They also lack knowledge about Chaos causing human worlds to suffer from demonic incursions.
4. Unable to deal with their new subjects they resort to indirect genocide against the human population. Of course this strengthens human resolve to fight the Tau and makes them unable recruit from conquered world like they have traditionally do as well as proving that their core ideology "the greater good" is just a pyramid scheme.

Durandal wrote:
Tau "Hero" class cruisers, the pinnacle of their naval technology built after the Damocles Gulf Crusade, is roughly comparable to the Lunar class Cruiser. -BFG Armada Pg 130.

Tau orbital supremacy is not a given. What little experience I had with BFG was that Tau were ideal for imperial fleets. The imperials moved faster, had access to longer range weapons, and both would attempt to close frontally. If the Tau did not cripple the imperium's forces as they closed the resulting boarding actions and close in fighting favored the imperial craft due to the penalties to Tau close in combat.

The Tau overall may be able to muster more troops, but they cannot garrison them all on every planet. The imperium, with it's faster warp travel could simply bypass major Tau strength and hit the weaker Tau systems. Unlike the ground, the Tau would not be able to play patient hunter or give ground, they would be forced to defend the large orbitals and support systems in orbit. That puts them at a disadvantage vs. the Imperium which prefers large decisive battles.

While the Tau Etherials would certainly tell their people this is all part of a larger plan, you can't argue that is 100% certain. The Etherials already lie and manipulate the Tau castes, and conceal knowledge from them. They could easily spread propaganda in order to maintain support of their allies and keep up moral, such as their defeats being intentional as part of a larger plan.

Even with the third wave expansion the Tau controlled space is smaller then Maccragge. If one SM chapter and a PDF can hold that with an active Ork empire next door, the Tau could certainly be defeated by two chapters and several hundred regiments.

Again, old fluff. Those ships are no longer in service, they now have actual war-ships, instead of transports with weapons bolted on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Tau expansion fails for four reasons

1. The Tau can't use warp travel like the Imperium making it much harder to have a large Empire.
2. The Tau can't control humans with pheromones like they can other species.
3. They also lack knowledge about Chaos causing human worlds to suffer from demonic incursions.
4. Unable to deal with their new subjects they resort to indirect genocide against the human population. Of course this strengthens human resolve to fight the Tau and makes them unable recruit from conquered world like they have traditionally do as well as proving that their core ideology "the greater good" is just a pyramid scheme.

I question #'s 2 and 4.
Their is no proof of pheromones, and they have plenty of member species working for them just fine.
And, the tau have never committed a genocide of humans in the fluff. Not only would it be a waste of recorces, it would be against the tenets of the greater good. You want them to join. You might force them to join, but you don't just destroy them.

And it should be mentioned that tau-owned human worlds tend to be run by humans for the most part. Much in the way a US state acts.

Humans that fought against the Tau for the Imperium are placed in single gender re-education camps and are treated like second-class citizens of the Tau Empire. Apparently, the Tau are also enacting some sort of sterilization policy to prevent human reproduction -- as the human population starts to dwindle very rapidly as the Kronus colony's Tau population begins to thrive.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Shas'O_Kais

Durandal wrote:
Tau "Hero" class cruisers, the pinnacle of their naval technology built after the Damocles Gulf Crusade, is roughly comparable to the Lunar class Cruiser. -BFG Armada Pg 130.

Tau orbital supremacy is not a given. What little experience I had with BFG was that Tau were ideal for imperial fleets. The imperials moved faster, had access to longer range weapons, and both would attempt to close frontally. If the Tau did not cripple the imperium's forces as they closed the resulting boarding actions and close in fighting favored the imperial craft due to the penalties to Tau close in combat.

Tau actually have an even more modern cruiset than the Hero, the Protector (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lar%27shi%27vre).

Also I don't think people are claiming Tau will have any kind of orbital supremacy (space combat is probably the only area where IoM ian't woefully outmatched technologically yet), but that the 'primitive' Tau flwet won't just roll over and die at first sight of Imperial warships.

Again, old fluff. Those ships are no longer in service, they now have actual war-ships, instead of transports with weapons bolted on.

thats not how naval build up works, not in an empire activly at war, ESPECIALLY not one that has a distinct numerical disadvantage.

Also I don't think people are claiming Tau will have any kind of orbital supremacy (space combat is probably the only area where IoM ian't woefully outmatched technologically yet), but that the 'primitive' Tau flwet won't just roll over and die at first sight of Imperial warships.

thing is no one's claiming that, but rather the claim is that due to the reality of the Tau fleet presence, they'll be at a considerable disadvantage strategicly.

that said, as others have noted, the Tau's disadvantage in this field will be less and less as the Space being protected is smaller and smaller.

If I had to hazard a guess, the Tau will lose many of their furthered flung conquests and be pushed back into a span of space that they can easily defend.

BrianDavion wrote:

Again, old fluff. Those ships are no longer in service, they now have actual war-ships, instead of transports with weapons bolted on.

thats not how naval build up works, not in an empire activly at war, ESPECIALLY not one that has a distinct numerical disadvantage.

Not really. Those ships have been compltetely replaced, as they are obsolete. They went back to their original roles, transports and freighters.

And it's not like they are at war with the imperium 24/7. They have long periods of truce, lasting hundreds of years in fact. The spheres of expansion weren't just a few years apart.

Also I don't think people are claiming Tau will have any kind of orbital supremacy (space combat is probably the only area where IoM ian't woefully outmatched technologically yet), but that the 'primitive' Tau flwet won't just roll over and die at first sight of Imperial warships.

thing is no one's claiming that, but rather the claim is that due to the reality of the Tau fleet presence, they'll be at a considerable disadvantage strategicly.

that said, as others have noted, the Tau's disadvantage in this field will be less and less as the Space being protected is smaller and smaller.

If I had to hazard a guess, the Tau will lose many of their furthered flung conquests and be pushed back into a span of space that they can easily defend.

At this point, probably not. They are not that stretched out. It will get that way eventually, if they don't upgrade however, and if the imperium attacks quickly enough between the spheres.

They're obsolete, that doesn't mean the production rate of the newer ones can match the needs.

And their is nothing to suggest they haven't. The tau empire has had long periods of peace with the imperium, and this was probably over 500 years ago. The tau are nothing if not efficient.

They've been at war with other enemies, if anything, they've developped weapons that are good at dealing with Nids/Orks and will be rather bad when the Imperium shows up.

Yes, but its not like they are losing 100 ships a day. They are not in mass mobilization 24/7.

And these ships were made after their old ones kept being out gunned and out maneuvered by the imprium's. Their whole design was to counter the imperium's ships.

Edit: That being said, they aren't like FWs compared to gaurdsmen, they are roughly equal, being better at some things, worse at others. The imperium can certainly produce more, and could crush the tau completely.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They've been at war with other enemies, if anything, they've developped weapons that are good at dealing with Nids/Orks and will be rather bad when the Imperium shows up.

The new classes of ships have been AFAIK specifically designed after the Damocles Gulf Crusade with the goal to bring Tau on par with IoM in space.

Tau is not IoM, they are (relative to their size) much more capable to produce high tech equipment, not having to rely on a handful of Forgewolds and the secretive Adeptus Mechanicus for it.

Apart from Riptides I have come across no indication in fluff that Tau have any trouble supplying their troops with needed equipment in sufficient numbers. As such I feel that the Tau Navy having received the newer ships in the numbers they need is the more likely situation.

Funny, the riptide was also developped around/during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, if they stuggle to make small suits, I'd rather not imagine the state of their navy.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Funny, the riptide was also developped around/during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, if they stuggle to make small suits, I'd rather not imagine the state of their navy.

The issue with the Riptide is not that their assembly lines can't produce it, but rather that 'the materials for the dense nanocrystaline alloy armor are difficult to obtain' (Tau codex). Since there is no statement or implication anywhere that the new Tau ships use anything similar, they don't suffer from similar supply issues.

The riptide was first field-tested during the battle of Mu'gulath Bay, they didn't even exist during the Damocles crusade. The Damocles crusade was over 250 years prior. It's still a prototype. The reason it is supposed to be rare is because of the armour, the specific materials are too rare compared to the amount needed to mass produce them on the scale of crisis suits.

And, again, they matched the imperium's ships during the Taros Campaign, and the imperium's forces were far greater in pure numbers..

EDIT: Ninjed by one second

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And their is nothing to suggest they haven't. The tau empire has had long periods of peace with the imperium, and this was probably over 500 years ago. The tau are nothing if not efficient.

I'm sorry but you're gonna need something a hell of a lot stronger then "there's nothing to suggest they haven't gotten rid of their old ships" in 40k.


seriously, I'm sure the old ships are in less important positions, but I suspect they're still in use, as you said the Tau are efficant. and scrapping them would be a hell of a lot less efficant then keeping them in service along safer areas as patrol ships in the interior of the empire etc.

fact is it doesn't matter, because we're talking about the strategic advantages. and the Tau have NOT developed faster intersteller travel

BrianDavion wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And their is nothing to suggest they haven't. The tau empire has had long periods of peace with the imperium, and this was probably over 500 years ago. The tau are nothing if not efficient.

I'm sorry but you're gonna need something a hell of a lot stronger then "there's nothing to suggest they haven't gotten rid of their old ships" in 40k.


seriously, I'm sure the old ships are in less important positions, but I suspect they're still in use, as you said the Tau are efficant. and scrapping them would be a hell of a lot less efficant then keeping them in service along safer areas as patrol ships in the interior of the empire etc.

fact is it doesn't matter, because we're talking about the strategic advantages. and the Tau have NOT developed faster intersteller travel

Faster is relative in the area of space we're talking about. Warp travel is notoriously slow and perilous in the Damocles Gulf area. IIRC it took the first crusade several months to cross it.

I also think Tau haven't completely scrapped their old designs, unless they have manpower issues (not enough Air Caste to crew them all). The Hero was 'a credible ship of the line' acvording to BFG book and their escorts were pretty good too in fluff IIRC so they can still perform tasjs behind the frfrontline. do believe that they have as many of the new ships that they feel they need though.

I think the Tau are in the same position as the IoM. Over extended and getting hammered.

The 1000 regiments and few SM battle companies are a drop in the bucket to the IoM. Probably reinforcements from the closest planets to the fighting. Certainly nothing that would be missed if they all died today.

The IoM has many enemies and certainly does not consider the Tau a serious threat. Nids, Chaos, Orks, and Necrons are actual threats to the IoM. Tau, like the Eldar or Dark Eldar are small, relatively minor factions in a galaxy wide war.

Could the IoM crush the Tau if nothing else was around? Of course they could. But the IoM is attacked on all sides, which is why minor powers like the Tau can continue to win small local wars.

If the Imperium looses one planet its a statistic, if the Tau loose a planet its a tragedy.

The Tau are currently engaged I fighting the Orks, Tryanids, Imperium and have been attacked by both the awakening Necrons and Dark Eldar.

Its also interesting to note that some of their leaders seem as foolish and as incapable of accepting truths as do those of the Imperium.

I liked the old fluff better where the damocles crusade was on the verge of crushing the Tau empire until the nids showed up. To me it seemed much more fitting than this weird anime hero crap we have now.

I'd hardly say it was on the verge of crushing them. They may have lost, but it wouldn't be their end.

A Xenos species that displayed advanced technology and a willingness to expand its borders into areas rightfully owned by the Imperium?

You can bet that the Tau would have been exterminated had the Damocles Gulf Crusade not been required to turn around and fight Tyranids. It's simply how the Imperium works.

As in there was no way something the size of the damocles crusade could defeat the tau wholly. They would just run out of troops.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
As in there was no way something the size of the damocles crusade could defeat the tau wholly. They would just run out of troops.

this is the IoM, they'd just bring more troops in. a ten to 1 kill ratio in favor of the Tau? the IoM will take that. and win.

And that could happen with any conflict at any time (assuming they have the troops available, but seeing as they haven't already done that, I don't think they do. Or everyone in the iperium is an idiot, which is quite possible.). And honestly, right now, the tau empire is worth far less to the imperium that it would take to capture them.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And that could happen with any conflict at any time (assuming they have the troops available, but seeing as they haven't already done that, I don't think they do. Or everyone in the iperium is an idiot, which is quite possible.). And honestly, right now, the tau empire is worth far less to the imperium that it would take to capture them.

It would cost them too much? The Imperium is a group of extemely xenophobic religious zealots that would make ISIS look like the boy scouts, and they have virtually endless manpower and resources. That is not a very healthy combination. Exterminating the Tau is a sacred, religious duty. Even if 100 Imperial martyrs die for every Tau, it would still be a great victory for mankind, for their god demands it and they will have greatly pleased him by wiping yet another xenos species from existence.
The only reason the Imperium stalls its extermination of the Tau is because a vastly more dangerous xenos species (the Tyranids) has a higher priority on the destruction list which means less attention is given to the Tau.
The Tau really need to invent some way of hiding from the Imperial onslaught (maybe by relocating to someplace outside Imperial borders or becoming nomadic like the Eldar) or they are as good as done for. That is, if the Tyranids or Chaos doesn't eat the Imperium first.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And that could happen with any conflict at any time (assuming they have the troops available, but seeing as they haven't already done that, I don't think they do. Or everyone in the iperium is an idiot, which is quite possible.). And honestly, right now, the tau empire is worth far less to the imperium that it would take to capture them.

It would cost them too much? The Imperium is a group of extemely xenophobic religious zealots that would make ISIS look like the boy scouts, and they have virtually endless manpower and resources. That is not a very healthy combination. Exterminating the Tau is a sacred, religious duty. Even if 100 Imperial martyrs die for every Tau, it would still be a great victory for mankind, for their god demands it and they will have greatly pleased him by wiping yet another xenos species from existence.
The only reason the Imperium stalls its extermination of the Tau is because a vastly more dangerous xenos species (the Tyranids) has a higher priority on the destruction list which means less attention is given to the Tau.
The Tau really need to invent some way of hiding from the Imperial onslaught (maybe by relocating to someplace outside Imperial borders or becoming nomadic like the Eldar) or they are as good as done for. That is, if the Tyranids or Chaos doesn't eat the Imperium first.

and if Chaos or the 'nids gets the IoM. the Tau are in even worse trouble.

The Imperium is vast but it does not have endless resources, and it faces threats on multiple fronts. In particular, the fact that it had to resort to subterfuge against Leviathan (Kryptman luring the Tyranids against the Orks after realizing Battlefleet Solar could not go head to head and win against Leviathan) shows the Imperium is stretched. The Imperium has to protect its heartland and capital, Segmentum Solar and Terra respectively. To stomp on the Tau now is equivalent to trying to exterminate a nest of termites while the house is burning down around you. The Tau are a regional power, and their expansionism poses a future threat, but the Imperium faces current more immediate threats. In fact, in the aftermath of the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign, it was written in Codices that the Third Sphere Expansion was triggered after the Imperium stripped defenses from the Eastern Fringe in order to reinforce Cadia.

I would expect that like the original Damocles Crusade, any attempt at stomping the Tau will end up being diverted or watered down in favor of dealing with pressing threats elsewhere. A token force might still be sent for the sake of placating local interests and "showing the flag" of the Imperium so that local systems do not secede because they feel abandoned.

Well, of course, because GW isn't going to Squat the Tau. There will always be something that prevents the IoM from ending the Tau... it's why the faction exists as-is currently.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, of course, because GW isn't going to Squat the Tau. There will always be something that prevents the IoM from ending the Tau... it's why the faction exists as-is currently.

Of course. That is why I find all these debates about Imperium vs. Tau to be a bit amusing in their sheer futility. The Imperium clearly has sufficient quantity of troops and war material to destroy the Tau, even if the Tau hold some quality advantage in certain areas, but the Imperium is unable to mobilize sufficient force because there are so many other threats to deal with (and GW will not let them as there is no faction destruction).

Nor is the Imperium's lack of response really stupidity. The Imperium is so decentralized and spread out that what to local Imperial authorities seems a big threat, is but a minor footnote for the bureaucrats on Terra who have to contend with things like Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade and Hive Fleet Leviathan. There are no doubt many other minor alien empires sprinkled throughout the galaxy and each will have their own local Imperial authorities or Inquisitors demanding resources to put an end to their particular threat. Which one of them gets their request answered and to what extent? Quite simply the Imperium is spread too thinly and often has to settle for stalling a threat rather than completely eliminating it.

I take the stance that rather than the simplistic "The High Lords of Terra are stupid and corrupt people perverting the Emperor's will" stance that seems to be played up at times by other players or by the GW characters in fiction, the High Lords are fallible humans doing the best they can with their limited resources but there simply aren't enough to go around.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, of course, because GW isn't going to Squat the Tau. There will always be something that prevents the IoM from ending the Tau... it's why the faction exists as-is currently.

Just like there will always be something preventing the Chaos Gods from turning Abaddin into a spawn and electing somebody less incompetent as warmaster, or the necrons awakening en-masse, or several Tyranid Hive Fleets arriving at the same time and nomming the whole galaxy.

Actually, didn't Abby win the last crusade, and that's why were stuck on 999.999 M41?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, didn't Abby win the last crusade, and that's why were stuck on 999.999 M41?

No, we're stuck in 999.999.M41, because Abby technically won the last crusade, bu GW counldn't handle the thouoght that Ultramarines failed to bring victory, so they retconnned the battle to finish after the turn of the millennium, so they'll never have to answer for it.
And GW hates time.