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An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

That is true and that probably has to do with how much more vast the Imperium is compared to the Tau Empire. To the Imperium a loss of 10 million soldiers on any given day is less than nothing. To the Tau Empire a loss of 10 million Fire Warriors in a single day would be a huge loss for them.

LordBlades wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Isn't the 1000 Imperial Guard regiment and Space Marines company reinforcement? There is already a lot of human forces fighting the Tau in the region. The battles were already fierce. The Imperium is just sending reinforcement to drown the tau in numbers and force them to retreat and crumble under the weigth of the ennemy. It's the end game for the Tau Empire. Can they defeat an imperial army of that size while being attacked by Tyranids or will it be their end?

It's debatable that there's that many human forces in the Damocles area atm beyond PDF and planetary garrisons.

The army that pushed back the Tau in the Zeist campaign has been apparently reassigned according to http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zeist_Campaign and there's nothing that I know of to indicate the IoM didn't throw all they had at Agrellan, place out of which not much came out (only a handful of Guard regiments, less than half of the knights and the two SM companies, the White Scars badly mauled in the process).

The lex article is referencing 5th edition SM Codex - depends if you consider the more recent stuff - like in BL as the current "truth".

Just read the Damocles short story collection which (as usual) changes the story quite a bit.............it also suffers from the usual issues with numbers - a vast planetary invasion force losses half its number on Voltoris - 900 dead?

The fleet size is also confusing...........

I didn't find the stories went well together tbh - I really enjoyed Broken Sword and last story but the other two were not great................

the White Scar Loses are not insignificant but they also inflict pretty huge loses on the elite forces of the Tau and in particular defeat (again) Shadowsun.

Lastly Aun'Va seems very similar to the most idiotic commanders of the Imperium which does not bode well for the Tau............... he is proud, arrogant, unwilling to listen and makes military decisions for political reasons.

Sometimes it's best to imagines they mean squads/platoons dead. It makes life easier (and 40k look less stupidly written).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
An falsity, with a gem of truth in there to be precise. The imperium are OK with trading lives for ground, the tau are not. It's not to the point that nortall suggests, but there is a definite difference. Now the imperium aren't going to waste lives on useless rock (although they do on occasion, the basis being, it's our rock), but they are willing to waste lives where the tau would not be, if it allows them to wind faster. If the imperium was offered an auto-win in exchange for 75% of their forces, many in the imperium would be OK with that, the tau would look for another means.

That is true and that probably has to do with how much more vast the Imperium is compared to the Tau Empire. To the Imperium a loss of 10 million soldiers on any given day is less than nothing. To the Tau Empire a loss of 10 million Fire Warriors in a single day would be a huge loss for them.

Yep, the #1 resource of the imperium is manpower.

The guardsmen can also overcharge their lasguns to add some pretty mean damage.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The guardsmen can also overcharge their lasguns to add some pretty mean damage.

This is usually the fact that gets overlooked.

Lasgun can be used on various frequencies to increase the power output (depending on the model).
However, it can ruin the barrel (standard lasgun barrel isn't rated for continuous use of high-power output IIRC) and damage/destroy(/explode) the power-pack (again, both depending on the model. Some versions are rated for continuous high-energy output).
Although it can be fitted with heavier barrel and hot-shot power-pack to make it more heavy-hitting.

How powerful is the overcharged mode anyway. On par with a bolter, more, less?

Same damage than a bolter (in OW), but less AP, I think, no sure about a bolter AP

So about S:4 AP:6

Other patterns have special models, like felling or accurate mode. There's also the Krieg pattern which is as strong as a bolter, I think, with no AP, no overload less ammo and single shot only.

LordBlades wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Taking a look at the fire warrior vs. imperial guardsman, according to both Tabletop Stats <snip>

40k Background.
Not 40k tactics, or proposed rules etc...

LordBlades wrote:

Based on that, I feel that 4-5 million of Tau+allies vs. 10-12 million guardsmen isn't a situation Guard is likely to win.

There aren't 4-5 million of Tau + allies.

LordBlades wrote:

Actually. AFAIK the full release rumors for autumn include:
SM codex
Tau vs. SM (likely Raven Guard) box set
Tau codex

So IMO it's very likely the SM codex will depict IoM winning, then the box set will elaborate on the story Shield of Baal style, then the Tau codex will have the Tau turning the tide in the end.

And GW does a full stop and releases nothing afterwards?
IG would still be 6th ed. IG is the main factor here.
There is always only 1 Tau dex. But multiple Imperial ones.

I find it highly unlikely that there aren't hundreds of millions of fire caste in a single sept. Considering even small populations on each planet (5 billion or so), and a below average fire caste rate in a place of constant war (say 10%) that's still five hundred million fire caste per planet, with each sept being at least one star system, and tau being the master colonizers that they are, that could mean billions of fire caste per sept. Even if it was at 1%, that's still 50 million per world. Heck, the current US military is slightly less than .5%, and we aren't in constant, life or death war, with a dedicated warrior caste as out military.

Simply put, GW doesn't know how population works, and tau forces regularly wipe out forces 3-4 times there size. Not without casualties mind you.

Compared to the IG the tau have better weapons, armor, surveillance and stealth tech, transport, ect. Their tactics tend to wreck guard, even on imperial controlled planets. And they are willing to constantly try new tactics as well.

At current level, the amount of manpower for the imperium to actually wipe tau out would drain the imperium's current recourses to the point, where they would start losing other, possibly more vital, battles.

The imperium could wipe the tau off the face of the map, but it would do them more bad then good in the long run.

Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Even if they don't, assuming one guard regiment is about 10.000 men strong, my money is on the Tau.

If the guard only outnumbers Tau 3-4 to 1 they will get slaughtered.

You don't like your money?

Taking a look at the fire warrior vs. imperial guardsman, according to both Tabletop Stats <snip>

40k Background.
Not 40k tactics, or proposed rules etc...

So in your view the way stuff happens in the rules of 40k tabletop and RPGs, like pulse rifles punching straight through flak armor every time etc. does not happen in fluff unless you see 'pulse rifles punch through flak armor' somewhere in the fluff? Is that what you're trying to say?

 1hadhq wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Based on that, I feel that 4-5 million of Tau+allies vs. 10-12 million guardsmen isn't a situation Guard is likely to win.

There aren't 4-5 million of Tau + allies

Citation needed. Warzone Damocles explicitly states that only the Tau allies are 'several million'

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.
The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

Tau ships stopped being primitive a while ago, especially the newer ones, designed from the ground up as warships. IIRC from BFG books, the Kor'Or'Vesh initiative (which resulted in the newest Tau warship designs) was meant to make Tau no longer outmatched in space against Orks, IoM and Tyranids.

According to Lexicanum (not always 100% reliable, but can't reach the relevant books now), most new generation Tau vessels can fight their IoM counterparts on even terms, except the Custodian carrier, which us more of a grand cruiser/carrier hybrid than a true battleship.

just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

BrianDavion wrote:
just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

The IoM has better speed, but also their Warp travel is less reliable than Tau's. Tau could employ meaningful military maneuvers on the star map, feints, simultaneous attacks etc. while the Imperium is still hadicapped by the fact that its tacticians don't have a meaningful answer to 'how long does it take for a ship to go from point A to point B and how many crewmen get eaten by daemons on the way'.

Fact is that the Tau navy troubled the IoM greatly during the Damocles Gulf Crusade and that the Tau navy seems to have improved considerably in the meantime (several new ship types).

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
just cause the Tau have attempted to bridge the gap doesn't mean they have. sure their latest generation ships may be capable of it, but what percentage of the Tau Fleet are latest generation? how well trained are the crews with these new designs? also if the Tau can only "break even" enaging the IoM in naval confrontations they're at a disadvantage. the speed advantage of the IoM means the Tau are likely going to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage one that will, likely allow the IoM to concentrate it's forces to their advantage vs the Tau.

The IoM has better speed, but also their Warp travel is less reliable than Tau's. Tau could employ meaningful military maneuvers on the star map, feints, simultaneous attacks etc. while the Imperium is still hadicapped by the fact that its tacticians don't have a meaningful answer to 'how long does it take for a ship to go from point A to point B and how many crewmen get eaten by daemons on the way'.

Fact is that the Tau navy troubled the IoM greatly during the Damocles Gulf Crusade and that the Tau navy seems to have improved considerably in the meantime (several new ship types).

The Tau also do not have FTL communications which is essential for the sort of missions you are talking about - unless they are now using their psychic allies to transmit info they are still relying on message boats which is horribly slow compared to Astropaths?

The original Damocles Campaign devastated the Tau fleet and base units with relative impunity - only the larger bases and the Kroot War Sphere causing issues until they were able to muster substantial fleet. tau warships have improved considerably but they will be having to rotate and replace ships and crew to do this.

Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

Bobthehero wrote:Same damage than a bolter (in OW), but less AP, I think, no sure about a bolter AP
So about S:4 AP:6

With more AP. Bolter is mainly meant against organic targets with limited armour (ie. Orks).
Full-powered lasgun would be more like S:3 AP:4, since it can kill a guy behind steel door, and penetrate soft armour of Astartes Power Armour.

LordBlades wrote:Something else that just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.
How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

All the might in Ultima Segmentum. 13th Black Crusade can be contained with resources from Segmentums Obscurus, Pacificus and Solar. Even the Ultramar sector would have enough power to crush Tau if they wanted. Eventually, they'll get nommed by Behemoth.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
All the might in Ultima Segmentum. 13th Black Crusade can be contained with resources from Segmentums Obscurus, Pacificus and Solar. Even the Ultramar sector would have enough power to crush Tau if they wanted. Eventually, they'll get nommed by Behemoth.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt the IoM will risk it though. They can't possibly know exactly what Abaddon has hidden in the Eye of Terror so I highly doubt they'll risk it. I doubt 'we pushed Tau back across the Damocles gulf will be any consolation to anyone if Cadia falls.

I agree though, Ultramar will eventually get nommed. The Imperial Navy won't be always willing/able to sail off from Bakka qnd go halfway around the galaxy to gently pick the smurfs by their hands and pull them out of gak :p

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if there were hundreds of millions of Fire Caste per planet, they're still woefully outnumbered. The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

The Imperium also wouldn't need to commit to a ground war to win unless they wanted the Tau planets. They have space superiority well in hand over the relatively primitive Tau ships.

That's the thing, they don't have them spare right now. The imperium is being attacked from all angles, and it's barely holding a lot of them off. Heck, the ultramarine home world almost got devoured by 'nids. It's called "the time of ending" for a reason.

Now the tau can't attack with impunity, and can be driven back, just not fully defeated at this time. Besides, any savy leader would realize that the tau will act as a buffer against the 'nids.

Also, the tau have brought their navy up to par. They now use actual warships, instead of retrofitted freighters.

Do the Tau still have FTL communication issues - I don;t have the current codex?

The Tau Navy is certainly getting better - possibily on a par with basic Imperial Cruisers and Battlecruisers. If they have more reliable but slower warp driveers but no FTL comms then they are going to suffer as they try to expand.

Also the Tau are also not just fighting the Imperium - they have now come to the notice of the Dark Eldar who have stripped at least one Tau world of its enitre population for a laugh, the Necrons have wiped out another world and the Tau have the usual tryranid and ork porblems that everyone else faces.

On the other hand - they are seemingly enlisting more and more races - the "mind worms" seem very useufl for interogation and mind controlluing Inquisitors..................

They don't have FTL comms, which certainly hurts them, but not quite as much as it would hurt the imperium. They are in a very densely packed. Still not preferable though.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Imperium has quadrillions of soldiers to spare.

Not true. The Imperium is losing territory to just about every other faction in the game. They don't have much of anything to spare- they're bailing as much water as they can out of a sinking ship and it's still, slowly, going down.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

Before GW retconned the 13th Black Crusade, the answer was "not much" and Abaddon STILL sacked Cadia.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Not true. The Imperium is losing territory to just about every other faction in the game. They don't have much of anything to spare- they're bailing as much water as they can out of a sinking ship and it's still, slowly, going down.

Debatable. The Imperium is still the empire of a million worlds. Every major faction could take a thousand worlds and it wouldn't have much impact on Imperial manpower. The Adeptus Mechanicus still has technology it only brings to bear when, for instance, Forgeworlds are about to fall. The various armed forces of the Imperium are still deliberately handicapped in order to reduce the danger from traitors. While the Imperium may be declining it is not doing so quickly and is still capable of going on the offensive.

Sure, the Imperium is losing territory. But its a very slow loss. And that still leaves them with countless(literally) soldiers to throw away.

My conservative population estimates for the Imperium is ~101-102 quadrillion, a very conservative estimate btw.

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

because they could likely supply both as needed. as I said, the IG is deliberatly equipped so as to be reasonably easy to supply across the entire galaxy. it's why IG's use lasguns instead of boltguns or Galvanic rifles or something

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Something else that jas just occurred to me: assuming the goal of any military deployment in the Damocles area is not extremely limited (like just hold the line) and it results in a lengthy conflict with the Tau, the IoM forces will need a steady stream of ammo, supplies, war materials and reinforcements.

How much of their industrial might and manpower would the IoM be willing/able to commit to this with the 13th Black Crusade in full swing?

eneugh most likely. you ever ask why the IoM assigns the guard the type of weapons and equipment they do? this kinda situation is why. Tank shells and Las packs (even Lemen Russ tanks and Lasguns themselves) are pretty easy to manafacture, which is why they use what they use. ease of logistics.

And why exactly.would the IoM direct this significant amount of war material to the Damocles area instead of Cadia, seeing as if Cadia falls little else matters?

because they could likely supply both as needed. as I said, the IG is deliberatly equipped so as to be reasonably easy to supply across the entire galaxy. it's why IG's use lasguns instead of boltguns or Galvanic rifles or something

Winning a war will be about much more than supplying ammo, lasguns and Leman Russes, unless the goal is scratch the paint off Tau armor.
The navy will need ships and aircraft.
The marines will also need replacement gear, which is not easy to produce.
All branches of the war effort will need a constant stream of manpower to keep operating for extended periods of time.

While one can assume that the forces of Cadia are reasonably well supplied , I don't see how it can't be argued they are not in need of more men, heavy gear and ships as long as there still are Chaos ground forces on Cadia.

Tau "Hero" class cruisers, the pinnacle of their naval technology built after the Damocles Gulf Crusade, is roughly comparable to the Lunar class Cruiser. -BFG Armada Pg 130.

Tau orbital supremacy is not a given. What little experience I had with BFG was that Tau were ideal for imperial fleets. The imperials moved faster, had access to longer range weapons, and both would attempt to close frontally. If the Tau did not cripple the imperium's forces as they closed the resulting boarding actions and close in fighting favored the imperial craft due to the penalties to Tau close in combat.

The Tau overall may be able to muster more troops, but they cannot garrison them all on every planet. The imperium, with it's faster warp travel could simply bypass major Tau strength and hit the weaker Tau systems. Unlike the ground, the Tau would not be able to play patient hunter or give ground, they would be forced to defend the large orbitals and support systems in orbit. That puts them at a disadvantage vs. the Imperium which prefers large decisive battles.

While the Tau Etherials would certainly tell their people this is all part of a larger plan, you can't argue that is 100% certain. The Etherials already lie and manipulate the Tau castes, and conceal knowledge from them. They could easily spread propaganda in order to maintain support of their allies and keep up moral, such as their defeats being intentional as part of a larger plan.

Even with the third wave expansion the Tau controlled space is smaller then Maccragge. If one SM chapter and a PDF can hold that with an active Ork empire next door, the Tau could certainly be defeated by two chapters and several hundred regiments.

I've often thought that the best way to attack the Tau would be to have Inqusitors following tau defeats start trying to unraval their confederacy. convincing the Kroot, just for example, that of they withdraw from the tau empire, and "trouble the IoM no longer" they'll be left alone. I think the loss of even one or two vassel races (particularly if they're key ones) could absolutly cripple the Tau