Ok so I was wondering but with Space Marine loyalists never swear due to how they are represented in the imperium, I was wondering would a Chaos Marine swear? after all hes broken any and all oaths from his former chapter, or could be an existing veteran form the Heresy I was wondering if there is anywhere in the BL books if they swear? (the only time I recall a SM swearing is was Gulliman called out Lorgar as a motherless bas d).
There's all kinds of swear words in BL books that are suitable for a PG-13 audience. I'm sure more than one SM has let loose with a "Throne of Terra!" or "these/this/that Emperor-damned" on more than one occasion.
I always found it funny that thanks for the Black Library/GW trying to be kid friendly (which makes no damn sense considering the subject matter) that Imperial Guardsmen and Space Marines are more polite then real life armies, if not even less disturbing lol.
I mean, Chaos Cultists will kill you painfully, but there was an even more miserable time awaiting Germans when the Red Army was punching through their lines in WWII.
You can happily have your Warband of Chaos Space Marines murdering babies left and right, but Emperor help ye if you drop an F-Bomb.
You can happily have your Warband of Chaos Space Marines murdering babies left and right, but Emperor help ye if you drop an F-Bomb.
Art imitates life. I can see ISIS people (or what's left of them) on almost any news channel, or other (always foreign) war vicitms. Nudity though, that's pretty much gonna end civilisation if the kids see it.
In the Night Lords omnibus the CSM swear, it also draws attention to the Imperial curse 'Throne' being frowned upon among the LatD.
Sometimes I wish there was more proper swearing in the books, in those situations people would swear, and it feels a bit like they're pandering to a younger audience.
And it's always seemed weird to me that its a game about killing people, sometimes in really horrible ways, and that's fine; but God forbid there be a boob, or a swear word...
It makes total logical sense from a historical point of view.
American society is heavily shaped by the puritans (well, proto-puritan calvinists) who founded it, who were so prudish that they decided that England was too liberal and debauched and went to claim new territory...
...By murdering the locals.
Death and killing has to be socially acceptable to found a colony in an inhabited territory, but the colonists' personal attitudes and values were powerfully, powerfully anti-fun, anti-sex, pro-power, pro-personal-advancement.
North America has the double standard for the same reason it has its advanced form of cut-throat capitalism.
England? England is suffering from the splash damage. Because of England's proximity to more liberated (in some ways) countries like France and Germany, society here evolves a lot more rapidly than the geographically isolated Americas. Sexual liberation started powerfully in the UK, then it hit the US and, while it had some minor successes, the USA still held a much more powerfully calvinist base to its attitudes on sex and freedom, and you ended up with a kind of pressure gradient that resulted in the more subversive attitudes bleeding into some parts of the USA, but had the anti-sex US philosophies sliding on top of the gradient back into the UK, causing some very strange ideological clashes.
But how do you explain the porn? A lot of that comes from America, well the non-gaking on a table and eating it stuff anyway.
But you do get lots of fake pneumatic blondes with inflated boobs being pounded vigorously up the arse by some chiselled Adonis with a cock like an orang-utans shaved forearm holding a watermelon.
So yes, I think all military forces in 40k swear, I wonder what DE swearing is like. If it offends them, it must be pretty bad.
I kind of agree with GW's stance on swearing. It helps give 40k the feel that the universe does. I feel that if GW were to lift the ban on swearing, the 40k universe would quickly begin to feel unnecessarily vulgar, do to the combination of the already over-the-top violence *and* swearing. The lack of real swearing, I feel, also helps the 40k feel more like a high fantasy setting.
Squidmanlolz wrote: I kind of agree with GW's stance on swearing. It helps give 40k the feel that the universe does. I feel that if GW were to lift the ban on swearing, the 40k universe would quickly begin to feel unnecessarily vulgar, do to the combination of the already over-the-top violence *and* swearing. The lack of real swearing, I feel, also helps the 40k feel more like a high fantasy setting.
I disagree, but only assuming that they handled swearing well, and didn't go over the top with it. However this is GW so really I probably agree with you.
Not to say you're altogether wrong or inaccurate, just... prejudiced. For myself, I think you also have to take into account the closeness to the themes. In the kind of relatively peaceful, sheltered societies or even demographics that might indulge in GW games, it's much easier to make the decision to get some girl up the duff when she's about to go to college or something, then run off; than it is to make the decision to go to war, go through the training and prep, shoot at a bunch of people, and be shot at and possibly killed yourself. I think it's somewhat related to the old chestnut: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." It's more difficult to empathise with something that doesn't directly affect you, or is more difficult to visualise.
Especially when the 'warfare' is against fantastical ratmen or futuristic big-monsters. That's the other thing: 40K, with it's emphasis on uber-characters and 'forging the narrative', is almost more like superhero adventures, despite how many pots of Tamiya clear red or 'Blood for the Blood God' are sold. Or even because of it. I've long been of the opinion that the OTT grimdarkness is what appeals to the young teens that are GW's bread and butter - 'badass', 'grown up', and maybe a bit illicit - rather than simply being a shocking illustration of reactionary hypocrisy.
With more, ah... mature, or sedate, wargames, the kind that at one time informed GW games, I think it's a bit different. I don't know if you'll find too many Napoleonic collections with every bayonet liberally slathered with red, for example. In my view and experience, most games and the people who play them, are more about the strategy and tactics; the adventure and spectacle; the opportunity of exploring a setting, period or event in a certain way; rather than getting the chance to act out their secret violent, murderous tendencies with little metal and plastic proxies.
With historical wargames in particular, I think the kind of interest and research involved tends to familiarise gamers with the tragedy and ridiculousness of war. Case in point: I've been watching the old WWII documentary series 'The World at War'. Now there's a show that definitely portrays the horrors of war rather than the 'glamour'; but in one episode old soldiers who suffered through some of those horrors still said that there was a certain 'beauty' in some circumstances and aspects. I don't know if I can put my finger on exactly what they meant, but it certainly wasn't portrayed as glorification of murder and death. More like some of what I've already mentioned, alongside other things. As another example, a couple of quotes from a certain author of one of the first miniature wargames, who'd also suffered through similar horrors: "You only have to play at Little Wars three or four times to realise just what a blundering thing Great War must be," and "How much better is this amiable miniature than the Real Thing!"
Getting back to the original topic, or thereabouts: I don't know how many 40K kids are devouring as many BL novels as they can, but I'd assume it's less than total, with the books being aimed at a somewhat older audience. If they are, and if parents aren't monitoring their kids' media for stuff they feel to be age-inappropriate, that's on them. Although it is going to be impossible to completely wrap their children in cotton wool, and I'll refer back to my original argument: some of the kind of violence in BL novels might not be appropriate for kids, but I guess parents may be less worried about little Johnny forming a blood cult and declaring war on the next street, than about keeping a civil tongue in his head.
«Emperor hairy ass!» A Space Marine Scout who lost three fingers to an ork shot. Yes Space Marine swear. Guardsmen swear (my favorite is:«by the Emperor shrivelled balls»). Hell even Sisters swear, but only with blasphemy sanctionned by the Ecclesiarchy.
Furyou Miko wrote: It makes total logical sense from a historical point of view.
American society is heavily shaped by the puritans (well, proto-puritan calvinists) who founded it, who were so prudish that they decided that England was too liberal and debauched and went to claim new territory...
...By murdering the locals.
Death and killing has to be socially acceptable to found a colony in an inhabited territory, but the colonists' personal attitudes and values were powerfully, powerfully anti-fun, anti-sex, pro-power, pro-personal-advancement.
North America has the double standard for the same reason it has its advanced form of cut-throat capitalism.
England? England is suffering from the splash damage. Because of England's proximity to more liberated (in some ways) countries like France and Germany, society here evolves a lot more rapidly than the geographically isolated Americas. Sexual liberation started powerfully in the UK, then it hit the US and, while it had some minor successes, the USA still held a much more powerfully calvinist base to its attitudes on sex and freedom, and you ended up with a kind of pressure gradient that resulted in the more subversive attitudes bleeding into some parts of the USA, but had the anti-sex US philosophies sliding on top of the gradient back into the UK, causing some very strange ideological clashes.
You do realize that GW is based in England right?
It would make sense if they were an American company, but they aren't.
It would make sense if they were an American company, but they aren't.
You realize that one needs to read until the end right?...
Furyou Miko wrote: but had the anti-sex US philosophies sliding on top of the gradient back into the UK, causing some very strange ideological clashes.
Vermis wrote: I've long been of the opinion that the OTT grimdarkness is what appeals to the young teens that are GW's bread and butter - 'badass', 'grown up', and maybe a bit illicit - rather than simply being a shocking illustration of reactionary hypocrisy.
I agree, but I'd also like to add I've always had the feeling the "GW wargaming community" (as opposed to, and at the same time included in, the much bigger "wargaming community") is to a certain degree made up of many teenage-minded individuals.
Not saying it's something truly "good" or "bad", it's just my impression. In example, Matt Ward's fluff, a perfect example of poor quality teenage fanfiction, even if it's reviled my the majority of "hobbysts", still has its share of fans. And considering the current demographics of 40k (it's clearly not a game the average teenager can afford) I'd say most Wardinites* are actually adults. Adults with quite a "teenage" taste when it comes to literature, but adults nonetheless.
In regards to no real swearing in 40k, well, it's understandable. As I see it, 40k nowadays is a bit of an odd mixture between 80s - early 90s action movies, and late 90s - 00s action movies. It has all the blood and "cool kickass action heroes" from the 80s, but also the PG-13 feel that has turned the mainstream action genre into a sad parody of itself in latest years. 40k is just like the average PG-13 action film but with extra gallons of blood to fit the "grimdark" theme - moar like grimdork these days anyway. In any case, at the end, you have a fluff that most of the time reads like inmature fanfiction, always trying too hard to look too cool and "edgy", and looking silly as a result. Older fluff tended to be better but mostly because it really didn't take itself seriously. It was silly and well aware of it, and that made it feel more honest and easier (at least for me) to forgive its flaws. Now it's just "wow zo zeriouz, luk at me".
*not a big fan of name calling, but I've seen this term being used and doesn't seem too insulting so I'd give it a go here.
It would make sense if they were an American company, but they aren't.
Yes, I happen to live less than an hour from their HQ. Please read to the end, where in conclusion I bring my rather rambling sociological history back to the point. America is big. There's an old saying: "In England, a hundred miles is a long way, but in America, a hundred years is a long time."
America has a massive cultural impact on the rest of the world simply due to the sheer scale of their entertainment industry. Thing is, that industry has only really become that massive in the last fifty years or so, which means that England, which started from a similar point but changed more quickly (avoiding the word 'advanced' because Vermis is right, it is biased language, which I should be avoiding), is now feeling the impact of the US pulling it back towards where it was five hundred years ago - in large countries, well-managed countries (like the post-New-Deal USA), industrial and economic power can advance massively, while at the same time having so many people means that ideas, which is to say social changes, happen a lot more slowly.
Oh no, I'd agree with the advanced point referring to culture. America right now has somethings more in common with Russia and fething Iran then western European nations. We're also bipolar, likely due to our nature as a melting pot of cultures and thus swing between difference cultural stances constantly.
But not really relating to swearing, but overall, I wish 40K, especially Chaos, would mature more and go into what's more or less "true darkness" instead of just dudes in power armor with spikes on them, or cartoonish devils with swords running around. Chaos is supposed to be the destroyer, then end of days and well, Chaos, yet it often feels or is portaryed like a cartoon character compared to Lovecraftian horror. Rather then feeling like Entropy or Misery incarnate, they come across as a child's understanding of Dagon, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc.
what should they do to mature then?
Wearing flayed skin as decoration, collected heads and other body parts have been part of their appearance for a long time. What else should they do in your opinion?
They are mostly butchers and not serial killer psychopaths who get a boner from mindfucking with victims. Apart from slaanesh followers maybe.
I would assume so. Loyalists swear too, though. In "Know No Fear", Roboute Guilliman calls the Word Bearers "Motherless Bastards" and if you want a better example, check out the Angry Marines (Their full battle cry is "Always Angry, All The Time! SCREAM IT YOU GOD DAMN C*CKSUCKING ULTRAMARINE LOVING F*CKTARD")
Wyzilla wrote: Oh no, I'd agree with the advanced point referring to culture. America right now has somethings more in common with Russia and fething Iran then western European nations. We're also bipolar, likely due to our nature as a melting pot of cultures and thus swing between difference cultural stances constantly.
But not really relating to swearing, but overall, I wish 40K, especially Chaos, would mature more and go into what's more or less "true darkness" instead of just dudes in power armor with spikes on them, or cartoonish devils with swords running around. Chaos is supposed to be the destroyer, then end of days and well, Chaos, yet it often feels or is portaryed like a cartoon character compared to Lovecraftian horror. Rather then feeling like Entropy or Misery incarnate, they come across as a child's understanding of Dagon, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc.
I'm personally curious as to how you mean this.
By and large I'd say that Chaos is pretty dark, though it was a bit more so. But that's if you get into the fluff and really start to pick at it. Fir example, really delving into the horrible things the Emperor's Children with indulge, just how broken the World Eaters and Night Lords are, some stuff like that. I also think that showing how the Chaos gods can be "good" would also help. Returning Khorne to loving martial pride and not thinking that the skulls of infants / elderly / invalids are great - that kind of thing.
Wyzilla wrote: Oh no, I'd agree with the advanced point referring to culture. America right now has somethings more in common with Russia and fething Iran then western European nations. We're also bipolar, likely due to our nature as a melting pot of cultures and thus swing between difference cultural stances constantly.
But not really relating to swearing, but overall, I wish 40K, especially Chaos, would mature more and go into what's more or less "true darkness" instead of just dudes in power armor with spikes on them, or cartoonish devils with swords running around. Chaos is supposed to be the destroyer, then end of days and well, Chaos, yet it often feels or is portaryed like a cartoon character compared to Lovecraftian horror. Rather then feeling like Entropy or Misery incarnate, they come across as a child's understanding of Dagon, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc.
I'm personally curious as to how you mean this.
By and large I'd say that Chaos is pretty dark, though it was a bit more so. But that's if you get into the fluff and really start to pick at it. Fir example, really delving into the horrible things the Emperor's Children with indulge, just how broken the World Eaters and Night Lords are, some stuff like that. I also think that showing how the Chaos gods can be "good" would also help. Returning Khorne to loving martial pride and not thinking that the skulls of infants / elderly / invalids are great - that kind of thing.
Oh FFS, Khorne has NEVER been about martial pride in 40K. Going all the way back to his first appearance in 40K, all Khorne cared for was blood, and never where it came from.
The problem with Chaos right now is that it is too well "known". It is quantified, we comprehend it from a reader's perspective. Daemons are not portrayed as horrifying entities from beyond the wall of sleep come to kill from ignorance or reap out of contempt, they're just red devils running around with horned heads and swords to chop people up with. If there was one army I would change, it would be Daemons to simply make them more chaotic, Lovecraftian. Render them the unknowable, incomprehensible horror that not even Space Marines should be able to comprehend or shake off so easily as they do now.
Daemons should not tbe anthropomorphic entities we know them now as, but eldritch abominations bled from beyond reality and existence as we know, either killing from shear ignorance and failing to even recognize us as life, or reaping souls out of malice and contempt for all life. They are not cartoonish personifications of emotions or even have thoughts that humans can comprehend or relate to. All that can be understood of their nature by life of the materium is that they are contempt incarnate, holding the same value for our lives as we treat microbes. They bleed from other realms, crawling out of shadow as madness. Nothing mortal can gaze upon them, including Space Marines, for to look upon one is to gaze upon the incomprehensible- insanity incarnated. No humanoid bodies taken, nothing we could so easily relate to. They instead twist themselves into alien geometries that defy reality and spiral upwards and downwards into other planes of existence- stretching across dimensions like a rot within the fabric of reality itself. Bodies flushed with colors unimaginable before that reflect both within the mind and soul, driving you insane the longer the exposure as your brain strains more and more to comprehend that which defies it and exists in a state beyond what it can fully perceive. Like a blind man trying to paint a nebulae in every spectrum of light, it is simply beyond the capability of the human mind to understand and quantify- and to attempt only corrupts your mind and soul.
Punt all informative sources into the wastebin. Leave the palyer to wonder what the hell Chaos truly is, and what these rumored Chaos Gods really are. Are daemons individuals? Are they a single entity? Are Chaos Gods even single entities, or are they all part of a single greater amorphous entity, all of which is slowly encircling reality like the roots of a great tree, only too expansive and great to see from the perspective of the human mind? What is it? What are they? Nobody knows, not even the legions of Chaos. What we would know as daemons previously in 40K would rather be cultists and champions, somewhat like the aliens of Behind the Wall of Sleep and the Deep Ones, only anyone can apply so long as they leave all behind and embark on a trail they do not know where will take them, and if any parts of their sentience will even survive. Cultists mutate slowly under the influence of the destroyer, warping to their chosen god until they end up something like Daemonettes or Pink Horrors, warped to such a degree that all humanity has been lost.
Really, just add mystery. Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man. The greatest fear is that of the unknown, and as such daemons should always, always remain unknown. Make the player question what the faction is. What its motives even are. Who leads it? What causes the mutations? Are the cultists even in control of themselves anymore? Are they even sentient? Or are they merely puppets on the spreading roots of a far greater beast, acting as individual cells within an entity that is infinite? Can you fight it? Can you kill it? Do you join it in search of salvation, or do you stand and fight it in hope of saving your individuality? And what is a daemon even, is it just some horribly abomination from another reality, or is it just an iceberg cresting the waters of our realm, and below lurks a far greater beast?
IMO, Daemons should be so utterly horrifying and esoteric that not only should it be impressive if ANYONE can put a true Daemon down, but a Space Marine should go mad as well from facing them. The only faction that should be able to even properly fight them are the Grey Knights.
TL;DR, make Chaos surreal. Eldritch. Incomprehensible. Nobody besides special factions and characters like the Grey Knights, Primarchs, Living Saints, and super-duper abnormal space marine champions like Sigismund be able to kill daemons. Daemons are without form and exist on multiple levels, and armies instead consist of chaos cultists and fully mutated cultists who look more like our traditional 40K daemons. True daemons should make even Space Marines attempt suicide from over-exposure.
i dont see how that would make anything "more mature"... it would just be different.
Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man
1) that doesnt work well for a miniature game universe
2) tyranids have a very real body... and yet they are horrifying to the peopl. Same with demons, regular humans can get insane from beeing exposed to demons.
3) there are more daemons then just lesser daemons and greater daemons. There are powerfull daemons without body who are looking for one, these entities already exist.
I do agree with most of that Wyzilla, but as Keep said, it doesn't really translate to a miniature game very well. But I would prefer a more eldritch feel to chaos, they feel very cartoony a lot of the time when they're meant to be a surreal creeping evil.
They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.
There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.
Seen examples of loyalists pseudo swearing. One was "...by Russ's hairy balls" and I think another when a Space Wolf novitiate crashes a thunderhawk in Blood of Asaheim.
Keep wrote: i dont see how that would make anything "more mature"... it would just be different.
Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man
1) that doesnt work well for a miniature game universe 2) tyranids have a very real body... and yet they are horrifying to the peopl. Same with demons, regular humans can get insane from beeing exposed to demons. 3) there are more daemons then just lesser daemons and greater daemons. There are powerfull daemons without body who are looking for one, these entities already exist.
The problem is daemons being an army in the first place. Like I said, current models (although changed for being further disturbing) are merely cultists horribly mutated. Actual daemons would be something like a LOTW with some special sculpt of pure chaos similar to Yog-Sothoth with the player just throwing paint on it. Garish. Gigantic. Intimidating. Ruinous.
And no, it is more mature because it wouldn't be fairly cartoonish and almost childish in some aspects, most notable Khonre. Khorne is just a discount demon king from any fantasy universe with generic satan iconography who just kills you. Madness and such is kept to a minimum. And while I also didn't want to put it so bluntly, rape really, really, should be a thing for some Slaanesh warbands to make them actually horrifying. Another issue I have with Chaos is that in some ways, I'd be more terrified about the Imperial Japanese Army showing up on my front door or the Red Army crashing through the wall then Chaos Cultists or Slaanesh Daemons. We know it probalby happens, but GW likes to pretend it doesn't even exist and never even plays ball. It doesn't even need to be physical either- something that comes from beyond could just as easily rip apart and brutalize the mind and psyche.
Chaos just quite simply doesn't feel EVIL. It doesn't invoke feelings of dread, fear, or cause you to be disturbed. I've read a LOT of 40K books and still have yet to find even anything remotely impressive or interesting on Daemons compared to other fictions with Eldritch Abominations, yet Chaos is supposed to be the Eldritch Abomination faction. It feels so young, so dumbed down and censored. If Imperial Japanese Soldiers are more frightening then cultists worshiping eldritch abominations that wish to corrupt and destroy everything- something's gone terribly wrong in the writing department in conveying terror. Daemons are always talked up about as that faction that makes you want to commit suicide if you see them coming and force you to execute everyone who is exposed to them without resistance to taint, yet they just seem so... average. They aren't legitimately disturbing or frightening, hell Chaos Space Marines have a lot more fridge horror, yet they're just mortal servants.
I dunno, Chaos is just hyped up so much as EEVUUUUUL, yet compared to real-life charming characters they're rather blasé. I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East. It leaves Chaos at times just feeling so cartoonish and childish. The threat is so censored and dumbed down it just doesn't convey that sense of horror. Open a history book and read about Nanking. Meanwhile if crack open a 40K book on Chaos what is done to their victims is absolutely mundane at times compared to the worst parts of humanity. Or how the Night Lords claim to be the masters of torture, but then there's the Viking Blood Eagle. GW simply doesn't keep up with the true horror mankind can unleash.
Khonsu wrote: There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.
It's very, very old fluff. From the Realm of Chaos books (late 80s) onwards, Khorne has been mostly "blood and skullz" all the time. Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.
Also agree with Wyzilla. Funny enough, some pieces of now forgotten (from the 'official' point of view) Fantasy fluff, like Mengil's Manflayers, actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff. And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.
They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.
40k miniatures in "epic scale" inherently look cartoonish, because they dont have alot of detail, their proportions (for humanoids) are way off, weapons are huge blobs, etc. If you want maturity you have to look for artwork (those that are not specifically made to look comic like...). Descriptions in novels / the background is mature enough imo.
I do agree however, that the new daemons, and several other 40k &fantasy miniatures they brought out in the last years, look stupid. I would blame that on bad designers however, not on the lack of maturity in background.
And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.
he is a dark elve, and dark elves are evil/ full of hatred / sadistic...
actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff
examples? What are you expecting instead? How is disease and pestilence and outerworldy beeings representing/delivering it not disturbing? How is extreme brutality not disturbing? If that does not sound disturbing to you... maybe you would have a different opinion if you've actually experienced it on the receiving end...
Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.
Khorne just hates shooting and especially scorcery because its for weaklings. Strength, brutality and bloodshed are the ideals.
They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.
40k miniatures in "epic scale" inherently look cartoonish, because they dont have alot of detail, their proportions (for humanoids) are way off, weapons are huge blobs, etc. If you want maturity you have to look for artwork (those that are not specifically made to look comic like...). Descriptions in novels / the background is mature enough imo.
I do agree however, that the new daemons, and several other 40k &fantasy miniatures they brought out in the last years, look stupid. I would blame that on bad designers however, not on the lack of maturity in background.
That would be a valid argument if the previous pink horrors hadn't been pretty much perfect for what they are, so it's nothing to do with the scale or whatever, it's because of the design decisions. Descriptions in the background are just as watered down and cartoony as the rest of the setting is these days.
You don't have to agree but it's how I feel about it, I done feel like we need to provide examples of how we feel just because you don't agree. It's a subjective discussion.
Khonsu wrote: There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.
It's very, very old fluff. From the Realm of Chaos books (late 80s) onwards, Khorne has been mostly "blood and skullz" all the time. Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.
Also agree with Wyzilla. Funny enough, some pieces of now forgotten (from the 'official' point of view) Fantasy fluff, like Mengil's Manflayers, actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff. And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.
There were those weird chaos things that had hooks for hands and chains nailed into their backs that climbed walls and when they died the chains hung there for people to climb. They were cool, gruesome and dark, and if you compare them to like, wrathmongers...
And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.
he is a dark elve, and dark elves are evil/ full of hatred / sadistic...
actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff
examples? What are you expecting instead? How is disease and pestilence and outerworldy beeings representing/delivering it not disturbing? How is extreme brutality not disturbing? If that does not sound disturbing to you... maybe you would have a different opinion if you've actually experienced it on the receiving end...
Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.
Khorne just hates shooting and especially scorcery because its for weaklings. Strength, brutality and bloodshed are the ideals.
Mengil is a dark elf, and it's true dark elves have a quite "evil" flavour, but still he's not among the usual destruction-mongers. He's just a mercenary with quite brutal and savage methods. And yes, to me, a bunch of sadistic cannibals who will torture, kill, flay then eat you, while simply being very minor players in the big scheme of things (which means they could be hired by your very neighbour to do horrible things to you) feel a bit more disturbing than a stereotypical goofy cartoonish red demon with a huge sword wanting to murder you.
By "martial pride" Khorne I mean a more balanced Khorne which also has a few characteristics that can be considered positive, at least in a certain way. A god of war can be something more than blood and skullz.
ImAGeek wrote:There were those weird chaos things that had hooks for hands and chains nailed into their backs that climbed walls and when they died the chains hung there for people to climb. They were cool, gruesome and dark, and if you compare them to like, wrathmongers...
Yep, from the Storm of Chaos. Also remember the Chaos Dwarf Hellcannon? Golden Age of Fantasy without a doubt. Mengil's Manflayer's awesome latest models were also from that time.
They probably do just not in English, like how orks use a Zog to replace the f word (not sure if I should curse in a forum about cursing) While we never see actual cursing in GW publications, I think its one of those things that do happen just off camera.
Descriptions in the background are just as watered down and cartoony as the rest of the setting is these days.
maybe in the new codices, but hardly in the novels and old (good) codices, like chaos 3.5 ... And it's not just chaos that suffered from lacklusteredness in fluff department. Tyranids barely have any background in their codex anymore. "we eat" and thats it. In 3rd edition you had whole descriptions how the invasion phases where (in detail), shortstories, and other goodies.
It would make sense if they were an American company, but they aren't.
Yes, I happen to live less than an hour from their HQ. Please read to the end, where in conclusion I bring my rather rambling sociological history back to the point. America is big. There's an old saying: "In England, a hundred miles is a long way, but in America, a hundred years is a long time."
America has a massive cultural impact on the rest of the world simply due to the sheer scale of their entertainment industry. Thing is, that industry has only really become that massive in the last fifty years or so, which means that England, which started from a similar point but changed more quickly (avoiding the word 'advanced' because Vermis is right, it is biased language, which I should be avoiding), is now feeling the impact of the US pulling it back towards where it was five hundred years ago - in large countries, well-managed countries (like the post-New-Deal USA), industrial and economic power can advance massively, while at the same time having so many people means that ideas, which is to say social changes, happen a lot more slowly.
While that is true, it still doesn't make sense with why GW is oversantizing their product.
Culturally, the rest of the world is having more of an effect on us in this particular area than we are on it.
It really goes both ways, although I'll admit that this is mostly only the case for England, probably because we don't dub your media (although you do dub ours, or in some cases, remake it entirely.
Wyzilla wrote: I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East.
Well they are cutting peoples head off. Where are the head on all the spikes and chains coming from then if not other living beeings?
Havent heard of mass human sacrifices for their god from the middle east yet...
Viking Blood Eagle.
Thats an elaborate thing to do to a specific enemy you want to die in a painfull way... i dont see why chaos followers wouldn't do that if they have the time. Just because it is not explicitly stated doesnt mean it's not happening. Idk about you but i dont feel the need for them to go into that detail, because i can imagine it. What else would happen if a horde of murderous psychopaths invade a town? I dont need writers to describe every possible act of horrible murder/torture to get the picture. If humans did it in history, they will also do it in the 40th millenium and on greater scale. If you expect to see explicit "murder/torture porn" (apart from bolter porn) in a 40k chaos codex i think you're a bit unrealistic...
Last but not least - it doesnt help that most of the time...loyalists are the main characters and therefore chaos gets (apart from "oh they are the bad guys") no signifant page space at all.
(Also, Nightlords are masters of terror in general... not torture)
In fact, if you would put explicit stuff in there that really happened (i remember reading diaries about chechen war/ grozny where stuff was described in a very figurative way, and ended up depressed/shocked for quite some time)... only few people would want to continue reading that, and they would have to put age ratings on books possibly, they couldn't sell it in a GW store.
Realistically, one thing that would make Chaos a more mature faction would be to further expand upon "non-combatants" (in the loosest definition of the term), and fill out how planets in the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom operate, rather than handwaving it all away.
How does the Dark Mechanicus actually organize production on a mass scale for example? The Magocratic world of Q'Sal in the Screaming Vortex is very reliant on slave labor overseen by three rival cabals of sorcerers, but that's Black Crusade fluff. Do the Dark Mechanicus resort to Chaos Servitors, manual labor from mortal means, or binding Daemons into industrial plants?
How do groups like the Savage Morticians, or Fabius Bile's "rent-a-Geneseed" operation actually coordinate. Do sorcerers just sort of cobble-together the Astropathic equivalent of ham radio, or is there something resembling an attempt to build stable communication lines?
Are there other groups besides the Dark Mechanicus supplying arms to the servants of the Ruinous powers? Are there other planets akin to Kai, or Forgefane, or so? Independent arms dealers?
The Pete Haines Chaos Codex mentions that the pressing need for skilled starship captains is so strong that the Legions will even attempt to seek out the service of mortal commanders, fallen Rogue Traders, etc, offering up their own Marines to do their dirty work for them.
How are mortal agents recruited to serve? The Siege of Vraks mentions Archdeacon Mamon corrupting Cardinal Xaphan, prior to his elevation to Daemon Princehood. Does the Black Legion have anything representing a covert ops/internal security apparatus in that regard?
Lots of areas where Chaos can be made mature and fleshed out without going "too grimdark/edgy 4 u."
It is kinda funny though, on one hand we have genhanced post human murder machines that can destroy PLANETS and basically wage a holocaust on anything that they oppose (and they're the good guys).
On the other side we have the evil version these guys with extra grim, skulls and darkness.
But much more evil are the S&M space elves who will rape your nostrils with barbed wire for the lulz.
Keep, this isn't a 'I have to win' discussion. It's a subjective argument, me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature, you aren't going to convince us it's dark enough or that it can't be darker.
Also, no one said we wanted explicit bloody torture or anything. Personally id like to see more of the Lovecraftian creeping inevitable evil side of Chaos.
@MagicJuggler
indeed, that would be way more interesting, and i hope some novel in the future will include this.
You can only make a killing of a human beeing so much more painfull or drawn out. Dead is dead in the end. Drawing it out, doesnt make it incredibly more evil...
Horror is not the target of chaos. Horror is the thing that happens at the receiving end of chaos follower actions. War is Horror in on itself, yet you won't find a War Films/Stories in the Horror section.
Wyzilla wrote: I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East.
Well they are cutting peoples head off. Where are the head on all the spikes and chains coming from then if not other living beeings?
Havent heard of human sacrifices from the middle east yet...
More like mutilating young children and nailing to crosses. I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it. So even White Company is ahead of them (pun intended).
Because they could just as easily cleanly beheaded or otherwise killed in a mundane fashion, or otherwise tortured in a fairly yawn-worthy method. Simply chronologing their battles in a more visceral fashion would at least be an improvement, such as noting the brutal murder of every single man, woman, and child on a planet likening to the massacre of Cesena by White Company or the Emperor's Children raping and pillaging their way across Imperial territory in manners more horrific then any real life force in history. Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books. Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Call me jaded from history, but Chaos just feels extremely weak right now, even compared to their fantasy counterparts You can put all the spikes and pointy stars on yer gitz as you want, but until they start doing things that would make the more colorful characters of history wince , they just don't pack any emotional punch. It's like a child claiming they're edgy while torching ants with a magnifying glass.
I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it.
I'm sure Berserkers will stop before women and children because they have morale after all...
And dragging the civil population of a city, who did not join in rebellion, to the altar for sacrifice doesn't include women and children all of a sudden now?
Do they need to explictitly state for you "The entire population was murdered. And after that they also murdered all the women and children" or what?
Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books.
You can't beat what has already been done, because to come up with that you would have to be an extraordinary psychopath. Which is not what the average author is. Or how do you "beat" pulling somebodies guts out while their still living and choking him to death with it? Is there a murderporn rating level or what?
Chaos forces do what realworld forces already did. Except on a galaxy wide scale... genocide torture rape slavery. Why does it have to be mentioned all the time? The latest dark elves armybooks constantly rubbed it in your face that they are evil, sadistic elves, enslaving countless people etc blabla. It's a great thing to be reminded of it every 2 sentences if you suffer from dementia. If you don't its simply annoying because it detracts from the things you actually want to read about. Spoiler: It's not the things you already know.
Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Black library is about heroes and/or villains. Not victims. Thank hollywood.
me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature
Which i don't understand, because it already is very dark if you read chaos novels and the actually good fluff (as opposed to the shallow codex entries, and "loyal marine hero shoots CSM redshirts all day long" novels). If you wish it should be darker, you should be able to point out what's wrong in the first place. 40k is not extremely well defined in many aspects, which is (as far as i can see) deliberate and interpretating things for yourself is acceptable. So why do you need somebody to tell you that chaos does bad stuff when you already know what "normal" humans have already done in real life?
what you seem to be longing for already exists, and that's what i'm trying to point out here... well what do i care if you chose to ignore the good stuff, enjoy not enjoying the background
I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it.
I'm sure Berserkers will stop before women and children because they have morale after all...
And dragging the civil population of a city, who did not join in rebellion, to the altar for sacrifice doesn't include women and children all of a sudden now?
Do they need to explictitly state for you "The entire population was murdered. And after that they also murdered all the women and children" or what?
Yes, because otherwise it just sounds like a generic yawn worthy kill-murder-death bit that you barely even notice anymore, because not only does every single Codex contain it, it's just boring. There's nothing shocking or mortifying, it's "Hey look. They killed people. And so did literally everyone else." When eternal war is the shtick for your fiction, "they killed people" is not only expected, it's absolutely mundane and boring. You have to spice it up and actually make it interesting, otherwise it's just snore worthy.
Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books.
You can't beat what has already been done, because to come up with that you would have to be an extraordinary psychopath. Which is not what the average author is. Or how do you "beat" pulling somebodies guts out while their still living and choking him to death with it? Is there a murderporn rating level or what?
Chaos forces do what realworld forces already did. Except on a galaxy wide scale... genocide torture rape slavery. Why does it have to be mentioned all the time? The latest dark elves armybooks constantly rubbed it in your face that they are evil, sadistic elves, enslaving countless people etc blabla. It's a great thing to be reminded of it every 2 sentences if you suffer from dementia. If you don't its simply annoying because it detracts from the things you actually want to read about. Spoiler: It's not the things you already know.
Except we don't even know if there is any violence of a sexual nature because GW avoids the issue like the plague in fear of blowback and for example, distances the Emperor's Children from their memetic perception as far as possible. But right now the current lore is absolutely boring. It's 40k. You can't just kill people, as every faction does that, it isn't unique, it's just Tuesday. And Tuesday is fething boring. "Genocide murder death" loses its impact when played so often that not only is it expected, but it's Tuesday. It needs to be made special. Turned up even further. Made more infrequent and devastating, horrifying. But right now, the actions of Chaos don't feel more evil, they just feel like mowing a lawn, with the lives they destroy holding less emotional worth in the reader then the blades of grass being chopped apart.
The best analogy I can think of is that you're sipping coffee at Starbucks when a man suffering from several gunshots stumbles into the store and collapses at your feet. You don't jump up to give him CPR, try to stop the bleeding, or even call 911. You don't even look at him while he bleeds out. You just finish your coffee and step over the body to go back to your car. Instead of generating any emotions of horror or dread in the reader, the loss of millions of people in the course of a campaign doesn't even elicit a response. It's just another day at the job. And while 40K is supposed to be grimdark, grimdark is supposed to inspire thoughts of horror at the universe, but the reader is left blase.
Really, what 40K needs, Chaos especially, is writers who aren't complete garbage and can write some half-decent horror that doesn't read like a shopping list. Because that's what Chaos is now, boring characters checking off a list of evil dick moves that carry zero emotional weight and feel utterly boring and bland.
Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Black library is about heroes and/or villains. Not victims. Thank hollywood.
Except that as this is a fairly independent company with their own publishing wing, they can do whatever the hell they want, tropes be damned. Although again, get some actual good authors in on the quality level of ADB and Dan Abnett or even higher, and censor nothing. Let them do whatever the hell they want that fits within the grimdark lore with no worrying of somebody being too squeamish.
me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature
Which i don't understand, because it already is very dark if you read chaos novels and the actually good fluff (as opposed to the shallow codex entries, and "loyal marine hero shoots CSM redshirts all day long" novels). If you wish it should be darker, you should be able to point out what's wrong in the first place. 40k is not extremely well defined in many aspects, which is (as far as i can see) deliberate and interpretating things for yourself is acceptable. So why do you need somebody to tell you that chaos does bad stuff when you already know what "normal" humans have already done in real life?
I've read many of the Chaos Books, and outside of the stories themselves, the actions are far as the scale of evil is considered, is pretty damn boring. Again, Nanking. Red Army. Mongols. Etc.While I like the story of Talos' slow fall into madness (and more or less becoming his father incarnate), Octavia and Septimus losing their morality, Abaddon's rise, etc, the actions taken in those books is downright cute compared to atrocities I've read about or even seen pictures of. There's no horror to be found at all compared to that of real life. Hell, there's Imperial Factions that arguably committed worse acts then the Night Lords right up till the final battle and dumping multiple planets into chaos and isolation.
In summary, the only response Chaos and Chaos Space Marines give me right now in regards to them being "horrible murder death evil" is this.
And that's a crying shame, because they could do some seriously horrifying gak if they just either got a competent writer or stopped selling themselves short. Just look at the Omophagea. The possibilities that arise from such an organ is vast and the chance for some screwed up stuff is also immense.
(And that's headcanon. Which is both pointless, worthless, and a waste of time outside of something like creating your own Chapter, although even then there are actual physical models. At the end of the day, you can write all the fan fiction you want, but unless by the absurdly small chance the Black Library likes what you wrote, it won't be officially recognized. It isn't a part of GW's publishing. It's just another fan-written piece amongst a sea of such fiction. It may even be better written then the actual official material, but that doesn't make it any more true to the IP. It may be a good read, but it still isn't a part of the IP.)
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, Dead Sky Black Sun was pretty freaky.
I mean, the Savage Mortician part made me wtf a bit when I first read it, and then the Daemonculaba.
Is that disturbing enough for ya?
One book... Wow...
Hey, I can only speak for what I've actually read.
For my all my CSM fandom, I have not read a lot of their books.
And it's always something? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but grossly swollen daemonically infested mutated women forced to be surrogates for new CSM certainly is grim enough for me.
Do space marines swear? F*** YES THEY DO! But the authors of the books are lame enough to replace REAL BADASS swear words with gak and frak....... booor-ING. The authors should look towards /TG/ for language tips for future books.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:Do space marines swear? F*** YES THEY DO! But the authors of the books are lame enough to replace REAL BADASS swear words with gak and frak....... booor-ING. The authors should look towards /TG/ for language tips for future books.
I'm fairly certain the authors know what real curse words are. If the company wished for their characters to use real, English curse words I'm sure they would. Instead they don't, so there must be a reason why. Censoring themselves with replacement words is fine in my opinion. It's quite clear what they mean by these words- and not necessary for them to print the actual curse words. If they have an opportunity to get the same message across without having to print words that this very forum would filter out, then why would they not take that opportunity? Doing the opposite would just be swearing for the sake of it. And is that really necessary?
I'd like to point out that I am no stranger to cursing however. I've heard more cursing and used it more in the last 4 years I've been in the Army than I have the rest of the years of my life put together by quite a large margin.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
I'm not saying you didn't. I read everything through and thought about my own feelings on the subject based on what everyone was saying. I was merely addressing that it may have been dismissed by Keep, but I was genuinely interested in what you had for examples not because I wanted to prove you wrong- but because I wanted to understand your view better.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
I'm not saying you didn't. I read everything through and thought about my own feelings on the subject based on what everyone was saying. I was merely addressing that it may have been dismissed by Keep, but I was genuinely interested in what you had for examples not because I wanted to prove you wrong- but because I wanted to understand your view better.
But I gave some examples, and I've said that I'd like to see more of the lovecraftian evil that chaos is meant to be, the creeping, inescapable horror of it. I genuinely don't know what else you're asking for, unless my examples aren't good enough for you, in which case were back to I don't have to justify my opinion.
Pilau Rice wrote: D'oh, I think it was KNF and not UE, but he definitely calls him a gak
"Lorgar, you gak. Are you DRUGGED?"
Best line ever, the book should have ended there
I really like Guilliman in those two books. Really changed my outlook on him and the UM, they're one of my favourite legions now. Ironically so are the WB haha.
Yeah, it certainly puts him in good light, even liked him in The First Heretic, some of his brothers think he's smug and a bit of a tit but he's really not. He's just .. Guilliman.
I think the problem with Chaos is we get this
The inferno of my vengeance fills you! It will burn you, my bearers of the holy word, it will fill your veins with power and fire until Ultramar is in ashes. As my power flows in you, so too will I see what you see, feel what you feel and know what you know. With each death I will grow stronger. With every fortress burned my reach will stretch further. You will be my army of dark righteousness. You will be the Bloodborn and your name shall strike terror into the hearts of men! Spread throughout Ultramar and take my fire to the Ultramarines! Burn them from their fastnesses until no trace remains. This is my holy word!
Ok, it's a M'Kar speech from McNeil. I guess it's supposed to be ominous and foreboding, filled with DOOOOOOM, but to me it just comes across as drivel. Why can't Chaos marines/princes talk normally. Sometimes talking direct can be more threatening than using window dressing. I'm surprised that Chaos manages to get anything done if they have to stand around listening to these prolonged speeches about burning this and killing that. Perhaps that's why Abaddon hasn't be successful nor become a Daemon Prince, he knows that they waffle too much and don't get on with their gak when they are supposed to.
Pilau Rice wrote: Yeah, it certainly puts him in good light, even liked him in The First Heretic, some of his brothers think he's smug and a bit of a tit but he's really not. He's just .. Guilliman.
I think the problem with Chaos is we get this
The inferno of my vengeance fills you! It will burn you, my bearers of the holy word, it will fill your veins with power and fire until Ultramar is in ashes. As my power flows in you, so too will I see what you see, feel what you feel and know what you know. With each death I will grow stronger. With every fortress burned my reach will stretch further. You will be my army of dark righteousness. You will be the Bloodborn and your name shall strike terror into the hearts of men! Spread throughout Ultramar and take my fire to the Ultramarines! Burn them from their fastnesses until no trace remains. This is my holy word!
Ok, it's a M'Kar speech from McNeil. I guess it's supposed to be ominous and foreboding, filled with DOOOOOOM, but to me it just comes across as drivel. Why can't Chaos marines/princes talk normally. Sometimes talking direct can be more threatening than using window dressing. I'm surprised that Chaos manages to get anything done if they have to stand around listening to these prolonged speeches about burning this and killing that. Perhaps that's why Abaddon hasn't be successful nor become a Daemon Prince, he knows that they waffle too much and don't get on with their gak when they are supposed to.
Chaos Speeches can be potentially awesomer than "Cursewords", Like Azariah Kyras' speech in Dawn of War 2 Retribution.
That "Blood for the Blood god" bit at the end makes my blood freeze.
Psienesis wrote: There's all kinds of swear words in BL books that are suitable for a PG-13 audience. I'm sure more than one SM has let loose with a "Throne of Terra!" or "these/this/that Emperor-damned" on more than one occasion.
Those are swears in the same way as "heck" or "golly gee" It's like throwing out a 25mm base that you're proxying as your knight titan and saying it's pretty much the same thing
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Squidmanlolz wrote: I kind of agree with GW's stance on swearing. It helps give 40k the feel that the universe does. I feel that if GW were to lift the ban on swearing, the 40k universe would quickly begin to feel unnecessarily vulgar, do to the combination of the already over-the-top violence *and* swearing. The lack of real swearing, I feel, also helps the 40k feel more like a high fantasy setting.
You know what would give it more of a fantasy setting? Nuns. The S and F word could be used very VERY effectively without being over the top. You don't need space marines running around saying F, F, F, F,F,(several dozen more F's), but it could add a level of realism and not be trashy if done right
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Keep wrote: @MagicJuggler
indeed, that would be way more interesting, and i hope some novel in the future will include this.
You can only make a killing of a human beeing so much more painfull or drawn out. Dead is dead in the end. Drawing it out, doesnt make it incredibly more evil...
Horror is not the target of chaos. Horror is the thing that happens at the receiving end of chaos follower actions. War is Horror in on itself, yet you won't find a War Films/Stories in the Horror section.
While you are correct that is certainly not the view most chaos warriors hold. You need to read more wordbearers. They're like the dark eldar of chaos worshippers.
40k should be darker in general. Dark in 87 is not as dark now. We got all emo and broody in the west
While you are correct that is certainly not the view most chaos warriors hold. You need to read more wordbearers. They're like the dark eldar of chaos worshippers.
I dont' need to read it, because it's already in my head. That's what they do, i dont need to read about the explicit actions they do with their victims. It's implied and that is good enough for me.
If they started to write down those actions for chaos... they would feel mundane - because humans in RL did it as well already. And since Loyal Space Marines are equally boring, they get "awesomified" by acting like chaos (see greyknights sacrifising SoB and smearing their armor with their blood for example). Thus making Chaos Marines seem less evil in turn. It will go full circle, then everyone starts doing it and the problem is not solved. If Chaos Marines act like Dark Eldar, then Dark Eldar also "lose" their thing und they would be "boring" if we apply the same argument Wyzilla brought out.
Those are swears in the same way as "heck" or "golly gee" It's like throwing out a 25mm base that you're proxying as your knight titan and saying it's pretty much the same thing
The hobby is marketed to the under-18 crowd (or under-16 in some cultures) so, yes, that is the kind of swears you are most-likely to get in an official, GW/BL published work.
You're not going to get the effer in a BL novel. Some authors even invent new words to cover the usage of common English expletives, like "feth" and "gak".
I'm pretty happy with the swearing system used by GW, it's unlikely that English swears would survive that long in time; it adds a bit of depth to new terms used in 40k, while still being as child friendly as this genre can be while the murders and war are commonplace.
d).
