So I would like to know what you guys think about how the bolter (across all codexes) could be improved. I'm looking your opinion on what works best for bolters from a purely mathematical and meta related viewpoint and not necessarily trying to reflect them 'fluff-wise' (especially since the game fails in this area fairly often) however your free to mention that if you want.

Bolters are the basic gun in 40k which everything else is based around, so by buffing the boltgun everything that is better than the boltgun will need a buff

Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

SGTPozy wrote:
Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

I definitely think that SM bikes, skimmers, RP, and psycic shenanigans all around should be nerfed. At LEAST a point increase.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

I definitely think that SM bikes, skimmers, RP, and psycic shenanigans all around should be nerfed. At LEAST a point increase.

Luckily, Eldar and Space Marines aren't too far down the road.

We have 16 people that think bolters are fine, and yet we have one explanation as to WHY they are.

I'm of the point of view that if bolters were to get buffed it should be to give them a special rule that allows them to re-roll To Wound rolls of a 1.
I feel Shred is a bit too powerful for what is a basic gun used by 1/3 of the armies.

The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

Bolters are fine as they are, they are one of the best all around BASIC infantry weapons in the game.

The game works really well with bolters as they are. I find they provide a reasonable amount of power for a reasonably cost effective unit. Shred would turn them into accurate fluff but would destroy on the table. Assault 2 would turn them into not only powerful ranged weapons, but would give them a stupid good charge too. Perhaps assault 1, but rapid fire has a nice feeling to it as an infantry weapon.

Edit because I forgot this was in proposed rules.

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

40k needs a D100 system, and to drop about 50% of its rules.

Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

Or just give them relentless. Then nobody has to deal with 2 shots at 24".

I've been wanting to playtest bolt weapons re-rolling ones To Wound. Won't be happening or a while, though.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

The only armies this would hurt are arguably two of the weakest in the game that are in need of buffs not more hate :-P

Bolters are fine. S4 is actually pretty strong when compared to an elite trained human, at the prime of their life being at S3 T3. When people complain how underpowered the weapon is, they forget their scale is against super humans, terminator style robots, and bellowing fungi.

If, because you think the current editions don't have enough tables, you decided to rework 40K so that it used a larger dice and the stats went in a wider range, then bolters would probably see a slight increase when compared to other S4 weapons. In our current D6 system, tweaking them in any direction results in them becoming too powerful.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

40k needs a D100 system, and to drop about 50% of its rules.

My orks charge your marines. Here, let me throw this 100 d100 dice to hit and than another 50 d100 to wound and than you throw 25 d100 dice to save and another 8 d100 for fnp.
Oh, and now my power klaws pile in and throw another bunch of d100...eh, it's evening allready - got to go - working tomorrow.

Bolters aren't fine. They are a joke under the current rules. But there is no plausible, fix either.

I think the only thing that needs changing is as a previous poster said, marines should be able to charge after firing rapid fire weapons. I don't think the bolter statline needs to change at all.

If you really want boosted boltguns do what I do, play Imperial Fists tactics, it doesn't help the wounding but it does give you a few more hits everytime a tactical squad opens up.

I play BA where almost everything moves 12", and I still find it hard to even get to assault range. Marines are just not putting out enough dakka to reduce the dakka they are taking in return.

SGTPozy wrote:
Bolters are the basic gun in 40k which everything else is based around, so by buffing the boltgun everything that is better than the boltgun will need a buff

I really don't think the 30 lb bolter firing .77 cal explosive slugs should be the gun everything is based around. It is an insanely large weapon firing a large rocket propelled explosive slug. Realistically no man outside of someone in power armor could use such a weapon.

Here is an explanation of what 20mm grenades to today on the modern battle field.

(M433) High-Explosive. Dual Purpose Round. The HEDP round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel cup attached, white markings, and a gold ogive (head of the round). It penetrates at least 5 cm (2 inches) when fired straight at steel armor at 150 meters or less, or, at a point target, it arms between 14 and 27 meters, causes casualties within a 130-meter radius, and has a kill radius of 5 meters.[7]

Nothing about the bolter suggests it is a "standard" weapon. It is only standard on marines. Which are elite warriors used to spearhead attacks outnumbered unquestionably, with a reputation of complete and utter domination.

Realistically I think bolters should be blast weapons - that would really slow the game down so lets make it easy. assault 2 shred or rapid fire shred is about as close as we can get to what a bolter should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters aren't fine. They are a joke under the current rules. But there is no plausible, fix either.

False - the plausible fix is to make them better. LOL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bolters are fine as they are, they are one of the best all around BASIC infantry weapons in the game.

Not fine at all. need shred.

There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

How are you going to balance around them though? Look at the way all basic guns in the game are designed. Lasguns, less powerful, less AP. Pulse rifles, more powerful, more range. Shiriken, shorter range, more shots. You also have to realise that not only SMs use bolters. Many IG things, CSMs, SoB, GKs, and inquisition all use bolters.

Not only that, the bolter is very powerful in tabletop when compared to a lasgun, which is more powerful as modern day rifles.

The bolter is powerful for a human weapon, but is a middling weapon when compared to the basic weapons on offer from all armies.




(Minor point, bolts are .75 cal, not .77)

Most of these fixes just make boltguns a hard counter to what they already soft counter. And those choices are already not taken, as their counters are too common/good as is. The problem of the Boltgun is more the meta then the gun itself.

Fixing a meta problem with a buff to the middle ground just pushes the power inflation. When Marines aren't even bottom of the stack for troops in the first place.

Or were you planning to buff everyone else to compensate? Didn't think so.

I could see something like change to Rapid Fire to allowing a disordered charge after firing, but it really is supposed to be a choice.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

Keep in mind, S4 + shred makes them more powerful than S5.

Bharring wrote:
Most of these fixes just make boltguns a hard counter to what they already soft counter. And those choices are already not taken, as their counters are too common/good as is. The problem of the Boltgun is more the meta then the gun itself.

Fixing a meta problem with a buff to the middle ground just pushes the power inflation. When Marines aren't even bottom of the stack for troops in the first place.

Or were you planning to buff everyone else to compensate? Didn't think so.

I could see something like change to Rapid Fire to allowing a disordered charge after firing, but it really is supposed to be a choice.

Marines should not be considered as regular infantry. They should be considered as elite's in other armies. Are we seriously saying tactical marines can hang with other elites? No...they can't - they don't even hang with IG vets, or firewarriors, or necron warriors (interestingly they all cost significantly less and can dish out better dmg vs a larger variety of targets)

comparing tacticals to other armies elites gets even more laughable. Show me an elite unit that doesn't wipe a 10 man tactical with relative ease. What does a marine squad wipe with ease? Nothing! marines currently inflict something like 5-6 casualties on a good day to stuff that they are "good" at killing. There is no meta problem. The problem is marines pay for stats that don't really help when you still die easy. If marines had more firepower they would still be useful though - as they would attract fire from hard hitting squads still but would also be able to eliminate said hard hitting squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

Keep in mind, S4 + shred makes them more powerful than S5.

more powerful vs some thing. not more powerful vs av 11. Still though - results are similar to str5 vs most targets. IMO this is where a bolter should be.

"Show me an Elite choice that doesn't wipe a 10man tactical squad with ease":

CW Eldar:
Harlequins
Banshees
Scorpions

Marines:
Tac Termies
Assault Termies
Assault Cents
Rifle Dread

Tau:
Stealth Suits
Any non-Plasma Crisis Suit

Things Marines with Boltguns kill easily:
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Wind riders
Banshees
Harlequins
Hawks
Dark Reapers
Kroot
Pathfinders
Kalabites
Wyches

Just a few answers off the top of my head.

I never said Tacs with Boltguns should be Elites. They are - and should be - Troops.

To be fair, tac squads are pretty helpless against scorpions and terminators.

The difference in defensive stats make Boltguns not so scary. A Fire Warrior or a Dire Avenger dies twice as fast to a boltgun shot as a Marine. A Guardian dies four times as fast.

Even against the dreaded S6AP6 spam, DAs die 50% faster than Marines, for the same cost (as CSM - easier to compare to something without CT).

Boltguns can do something. But you're so used to taking so little damage from them you don't realize what they can do.

As for other troops not being in their league, (1) this discussion is mostly on a per-points level, and (2), Necron Warriors and Eldar Aspect Warriors *are* in their league.

Personally I think that giving bolters( including pistols and anything that use the bolt profile) shred is a good buff that is not nearly as op people are worried about. Remember the suggestion is not just for Marines so it serves as an incentive to other codexes units to take them as well.

My second favorite idea is just to give them assault 2 so that it gives more tactical flexibility and allows( especially Marines) the ability to more fully use the stats they have instead of wasting half of them on any given turn.

In either case I think that a 1-2pt increase per model would be worth it to make bolters worthwhile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:MORE worthwhile

Making them assault 1 at 24" and assault 2 at 12" might be interesting, allowing them to storm at and take out regular troops in melee, without giving up the shooting phase.

Really though, I just go for dropping the price of Tac squads and allowing them to take more heavy/special weapons.

Bharring wrote:
"Show me an Elite choice that doesn't wipe a 10man tactical squad with ease":

CW Eldar:
Harlequins
Banshees
Scorpions

Marines:
Tac Termies
Assault Termies
Assault Cents
Rifle Dread

Tau:
Stealth Suits
Any non-Plasma Crisis Suit

Things Marines with Boltguns kill easily:
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Wind riders
Banshees
Harlequins
Hawks
Dark Reapers
Kroot
Pathfinders
Kalabites
Wyches

Just a few answers off the top of my head.

I never said Tacs with Boltguns should be Elites. They are - and should be - Troops.

OFC i was refering to units that are armed properly and used properly.

Dark reapers are probably the best anti meq in the game...what the heck are they doing on your list?
You listed a lot of "troops" I said elites.
Marines are good vs harlequins now? You do know they easily wipe a 10 man squad of tacs before they can even retaliate right? To be fair (the do cost more)
Marines vs windriders is also a huge joke. Not only are they as tough and cost about the same - they also do way more dmg are twice as mobile and can assault after they shoot - thats adv windriders all the way. (and these are troops. actually they are eldar potters and glass makers - still own marines though.)
Banshees are about the only good example that you listed and their problem is much more one of practicality. They can't get to the marines - if they do assault the marines at equal points. Banshees win by a landslide.
What combinations of weapons do you see on crisis suits these days? There are so few bad combinations of weapons vs marines I can't exactly think of one. Even double flamer will wreck a squad of marines.

Double flamer suits is one of the most hilarious setups out there, so many templates...

Bharring wrote:
The difference in defensive stats make Boltguns not so scary. A Fire Warrior or a Dire Avenger dies twice as fast to a boltgun shot as a Marine. A Guardian dies four times as fast.

Even against the dreaded S6AP6 spam, DAs die 50% faster than Marines, for the same cost (as CSM - easier to compare to something without CT).

Boltguns can do something. But you're so used to taking so little damage from them you don't realize what they can do.

As for other troops not being in their league, (1) this discussion is mostly on a per-points level, and (2), Necron Warriors and Eldar Aspect Warriors *are* in their league.

No, I'm used to INFLICTING very little damage with them. I know what they can do: nothing. I'll take Necron warriors all day every day, since they can actually do something to the Wave Serpent protecting all of your examples. By the time the bolter might be doing something that you describe, the game is over or decided.

Shuriken catapults are much more effective in an actual game because the Eldar are much better and demeching marines than vice versa. Once the squishy, helpless tac squads are out of their metal bawkses, shuriken catapults are great for cleaning up crippled squads.

Note that I'm not advocating for a buff, because I don't think there's an appropriate buff available in the D6 system. I accept their uselessness and minimize their presence in my lists.

Re: Harlequins
Try shooting them. With boltguns. If you don't shoot them, don't be surprised if they can, model for model, win in melee. But they cost more. And die a LOT more easily.

Shooting:
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27 dead Harlequins per boltgun shot. So, for every 3 Marines shooting in rapid fire, that's 2 dead Harlequins. Its going to be painful. At 15ppm minimum. So shoot them?

As for wiping a 10-man Marine squad before retaliation, on average dice, if Harlies charge, a naked Harlie kills 1/9 marines per attack. So they need 90 attacks, on average. At 4 attacks per model, that's 22.5 harlequins. Nearly double a max squad.

With Kisses?
1x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 5/9
3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 3x(1/9)

So, at 20ppm, a t3 5++ model can kill, on average, 8/9ths of a Marine per round. Throw in the Troup Master, and well call it even. So, over 200 points of paper assault can wipe 140 points of shooting, assuming they don't get shot at all.

Not seeing that as a problem. Again, try shooting. Even with just 1 round of rapid fire, you're looking at killing 6+ of them, giving you the win.

Yes, Marines can destroy Harlequins with boltguns.

I don't know anything about harlequins. I'm talking about real Eldar.

Dark Reapers shouldn't be in that list. It was an oversight. I was picking units that lost heavily to boltgun fire, and didn't think through that one.

The first list are Elites that match the comment. Basically, Elites lower on the stack that Marines can generally counter. Didn't think all of them through, but there are a lot of them.

The second list is thongd that Marines can destroy usually.

(Wind riders are 17ppm, so more expensive than SM. They have a 12" range, but can move 2d6" afterwards. So, they are getting a return volley. Wind riders do a little more damage, but cost a lot more points, suck horribly in CC, and risk being charged to shoot at anything. They are taken for their mobility, as they are worse than naked Tacs on the line, albeit not by much.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, Marines should be buffed because they should destroy not only almost any troops in the game, but also most other things?

Why isn't being good at most other infantry not enough for them?

If you don't want bolters to be considered the basic gun, then there'd have to only be me codex that uses the boltgun (rather than the 9 that there are now).

If there is a standard gun in 9 armies how is this not the 'basic' gun? Why would it instead be a gun that's only available in one codex?

(Until the 16th, Harlequins are still Elite options in the CW dex. They're just almost entirely worse than their new rules set.)

Because they don't often get to fight infantry. For being "generalists", they are damn useless in a general sense.

I just don't think the marine schtick mathematically works at all without their crutches like gravstars. I know the BA don't work.

Personally, I'd rather have Ork shootas than boltguns. That just seems kinda pathetic for humanity's elites.

Bharring wrote:
Re: Harlequins
Try shooting them. With boltguns. If you don't shoot them, don't be surprised if they can, model for model, win in melee. But they cost more. And die a LOT more easily.

Shooting:
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27 dead Harlequins per boltgun shot. So, for every 3 Marines shooting in rapid fire, that's 2 dead Harlequins. Its going to be painful. At 15ppm minimum. So shoot them?

As for wiping a 10-man Marine squad before retaliation, on average dice, if Harlies charge, a naked Harlie kills 1/9 marines per attack. So they need 90 attacks, on average. At 4 attacks per model, that's 22.5 harlequins. Nearly double a max squad.

With Kisses?
1x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 5/9
3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 3x(1/9)

So, at 20ppm, a t3 5++ model can kill, on average, 8/9ths of a Marine per round. Throw in the Troup Master, and well call it even. So, over 200 points of paper assault can wipe 140 points of shooting, assuming they don't get shot at all.

Not seeing that as a problem. Again, try shooting. Even with just 1 round of rapid fire, you're looking at killing 6+ of them, giving you the win.

Yes, Marines can destroy Harlequins with boltguns.

Even 4 harlies and troope master will wreck a marine squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
If you don't want bolters to be considered the basic gun, then there'd have to only be me codex that uses the boltgun (rather than the 9 that there are now).

If there is a standard gun in 9 armies how is this not the 'basic' gun? Why would it instead be a gun that's only available in one codex?

So are plasma guns and melta guns also standard? they are in the same codex that you are referencing.

Plasma and melta guns are both special weapons. It isn't difficult to grasp; they even have then listed in a 'special weapons' section...

Negative! I think that Marines can and should dual wield 2 bolters at once and be able to rapid fire 4 and max range 2. Like the GK arm mounted bolters. Frees up their hand to hold 2 more bolters! or 2 ccw! So each marine can potentially have 4 bolters! Current rule would only allow them to only shoot 1 gun. Is their a rule we can give marines to be able to shoot more than 1 gun?

Dakka banner will make them rapid fire 8 and max shot 4. But with 4 bokters that becomes 16 rapid fire shots and 8 max range.

Bam! DA becomes a power house and all marines get a much needed buff in killing power.

wait. Maybe we only give terminator the option to wield 4 storm bolters. Marines should only wield 2 bolters...

Marines would be awesome if they can quad wield bolt pistols.

I know it's in jest, but duel wielded bolters would be hilarious, sort of like a 40k action hero, but with bolters in stead of uzis.

No I am serious because i have like 10 marines with 2 bolters each because i did not know the rules when i first modeled them. The other 10 have 2 bolt pistols.

I have like 10 terminators i tried to convert into oblitz by putting 4 bolters on them.

Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

The thing is that if everything else is nerfed then Space Marines will be way OP since they're already too powerful compared to the majority of armies.

Like why play any other army if Space Marines will be far more durable AND have better damage output than you (in both shooting and assault)?

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

4 Harlies + Master:
Assuming Marine player fails, and doesn't at all while the Harlequins move into Assault range. And, because what the hell, Marines decline to overwatch

Troupers:
4x4x(1/9) = 1.7... dead Marines
Troop Master
5x(1/9) = 0.5... dead Marines

2.2 dead Marines.

Marine response:
2.8x1x(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 5.6/9 dead Harlequins.

So, 95 points of CC threat can wreck 70 points of generalists in CC if the generalists decide, what the hell, we don't shoot, let them charge us. Not seeing a problem. Those assumptions are stupid.

Let's remove those assumptions. Full shooting and Kisses.

Harlies move into range, then run forward with a lucky 6" run. At best, 13" away.

Marines move into rapid fire, and unload:
5x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 10x(8/27). 2.97 dead Harlequins.

Harlequins move up 6", and shoot pistols.
Non-AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 4.06/27 = ~0.15
AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 2.03/9 = 0.22

0.35 dead Marines.

Harlequins charge

Overwatch:
4.65x2x(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 4.65x(4/27) = 0.69

1.35 make it into melee. Master survives with sword
0.35x(8/9) = 0.31
1x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1) = 5/3, or 1.66 dead Marines.

3 Marines retaliate
3x1(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 6/9 wounds

And so the Troup Master, alone, survives the SM's attack. If he holds, he probably dies (loses FC and +1A). If he HnRs away, he takes three boltguns to the face (see above - painful).

So, to recap:
-130 points of Harlequins, kitted for killing Marines, lose handily to 70 points of Marines, assuming they get at least one round of shooting.

In melee, Harlequins hit well enough to hurt Marines, but won't wipe equal numbers in a single round, despite costing much, much more.

The real way to deal with Harlequins is to shoot them. The boltgun does that job, and does it well.

How are you seeing Harlies as not being countered by boltguns?

Really it shouldn't to too hard to balance everything, but it would require coordination, not the "some randomly selected book coming out every few months" thing GW does now. And probably a rules re-write.

SM/CSM: tough, armoured, middling damage output, middling assault output.
IG: weak, little armour, low assault output, low damage output, cheap, plentiful.
FW: weak, OK armour, high damage output, low assault output
DA, weak, OK armour, high damage output, high assault output, expensive
ect.

If necron guns have gauss and can auto wound and glance on 6s, then I think the guns str and ap should be nerfed.

If tau plasma rifles dont get hot then...wait they already lowered the str...Is the ap weak?

If DE guns have poison then their str should be even lowered.

If Eldar guns have special additional shots on a 6 then they really got to balance that out some how with a nerf.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

 Filch wrote:
If necron guns have gauss and can auto wound and glance on 6s, then I think the guns str and ap should be nerfed.

If tau plasma rifles dont get hot then...wait they already lowered the str...Is the ap weak?

If DE guns have poison then their str should be even lowered.

If Eldar guns have special additional shots on a 6 then they really got to balance that out some how with a nerf.

Huh? Plasma rifles have a trade off, they don't need a nerf. DE guns don't have a str char AFAIK (they just wound on a 4+). Eldar guns are shorer ranged, but have more shots at that range (2 shots at 18" instead of one at 24 and 2 at 12").

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

It's not "much less". It's only somewhat less. The drop from BS 4 to BS 3 is particularly misleading when model count goes up tremendously. S3 to S4 is worst against T5, which is more common now, I admit. But still, what we're paying for bolter-armed models is criminal compared to their offensive capability.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Double flamer suits is one of the most hilarious setups out there, so many templates...

one time a guy dropped 5 of them on a term squad i just DS - I lost every term - something like 55 saves required.

Bharring wrote:
4 Harlies + Master:
Assuming Marine player fails, and doesn't at all while the Harlequins move into Assault range. And, because what the hell, Marines decline to overwatch

Troupers:
4x4x(1/9) = 1.7... dead Marines
Troop Master
5x(1/9) = 0.5... dead Marines

2.2 dead Marines.

Marine response:
2.8x1x(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 5.6/9 dead Harlequins.

So, 95 points of CC threat can wreck 70 points of generalists in CC if the generalists decide, what the hell, we don't shoot, let them charge us. Not seeing a problem. Those assumptions are stupid.

Let's remove those assumptions. Full shooting and Kisses.

Harlies move into range, then run forward with a lucky 6" run. At best, 13" away.

Marines move into rapid fire, and unload:
5x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 10x(8/27). 2.97 dead Harlequins.

Harlequins move up 6", and shoot pistols.
Non-AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 4.06/27 = ~0.15
AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 2.03/9 = 0.22

0.35 dead Marines.

Harlequins charge

Overwatch:
4.65x2x(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 4.65x(4/27) = 0.69

1.35 make it into melee. Master survives with sword
0.35x(8/9) = 0.31
1x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1) = 5/3, or 1.66 dead Marines.

3 Marines retaliate
3x1(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 6/9 wounds

And so the Troup Master, alone, survives the SM's attack. If he holds, he probably dies (loses FC and +1A). If he HnRs away, he takes three boltguns to the face (see above - painful).

So, to recap:
-130 points of Harlequins, kitted for killing Marines, lose handily to 70 points of Marines, assuming they get at least one round of shooting.

In melee, Harlequins hit well enough to hurt Marines, but won't wipe equal numbers in a single round, despite costing much, much more.

The real way to deal with Harlequins is to shoot them. The boltgun does that job, and does it well.

How are you seeing Harlies as not being countered by boltguns?

Could you mathhammer the results of the same harlies fighting SM but with rending bolters?

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

It's not "much less". It's only somewhat less. The drop from BS 4 to BS 3 is particularly misleading when model count goes up tremendously. S3 to S4 is worst against T5, which is more common now, I admit. But still, what we're paying for bolter-armed models is criminal compared to their offensive capability.

Or other models ability to shrug off these shots is whats criminal.

Honestly now what the game really needs is to do away with cover saves, bring in BS modifiers for terrain, and chuck in a good armor save modifier.

"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns. Eldar look like they might be a good candidate, but the reality is that you face all AV 12, T8 or bikers that won't get within range.

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

That's like asking to run the numbers for Grots with S5 boltguns.

True, no effect there, but it has effects in many other places.

Actual-rending would be stupid good. Pen AV10 as frequently as they currently glance? In that kind of volume? Have a chance against AV11 too? On top of rending at 24"?

Blade storm is a rather powerful ability on infantry weapons that CW Eldar pay heavily for. Some still say its too good.

You want to take that, add vehicle-killing to it, then give it to the guys who already have everything else?

I hope you're thinking +5ppm or something crazy like that.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

"Know what units are good"?

Two meanings.

Obviously you didn't mean they tech against Boltguns.

The second meaning - your opponents never take the vast majority of units, because they are bad.

To say this means we should buff a unit taken in small doses - instead of either buffing the units you 'never see' (because they are worse), or nerfing the units they bring because they are OP.

With most of the offenders so clear cut and so divergent from the way much of the game works well, nerfing the OP stuff seems like a much better idea.

Sorry, meant run the numbers with shred not rending.( I'm not sure how I managed to screw that up) Rending is way too powerful( almost necron powerful lol), but I am fairly convinced that at a2pts increase per model shred bolters will NOT be broken and would actually be balanced.

Bharring wrote:
"Know what units are good"?

Two meanings.

Obviously you didn't mean they tech against Boltguns.

The second meaning - your opponents never take the vast majority of units, because they are bad.

To say this means we should buff a unit taken in small doses - instead of either buffing the units you 'never see' (because they are worse), or nerfing the units they bring because they are OP.

With most of the offenders so clear cut and so divergent from the way much of the game works well, nerfing the OP stuff seems like a much better idea.

GW hasn't nerfed the OP stuff in 25 years. The game will continue to drift further and further away from the boltgun. Regardless of how much math you show about shooting Eldar who are, in practice, always hiding in AV 12 main battle tanks. There are now lists like Imperial Knights that are straight up to immune to every bolter shot in the galaxy. I'd rather have cheaper troops (since they accomplish nothing anyway) so I can afford more lascannon/melta to shoot the Knights with.

No one techs against boltguns. The vast majority of units are never taken in this game in my experience.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

Then why are you not min maxing like them and just ignoring your marines. go grav, TFC, Bike squad, Smash chapter master like everyone else.

Also yeah its pretty fethin free for Eldar that rending shouldn't exist.

9ppm for t3 5+ shooty models with a 12" range?

13ppm for t3 4+ shooty models with an 18" range?

There should be some way in which they can threaten Marines point-for-point. Take away Bladestorm, and they lose to Marines in every way. With Bladestorm, they each at least have a chance. Boltguns kill both hard.

You never see them, apparently, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

(If you're complaining about the Cannon, less than 1 AP2 every other round isn't that huge a factor.)

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns.

Seems like you are getting stuck with a ton of min max troops with nothing good to shoot at.

Iv been having plenty of luck just shooting normal troop like things to death.

Yes, it's almost like my opponents know that what units are good or something.

" that CW Eldar pay heavily for"

Really? Seems free to me. Like Gauss.

Then why are you not min maxing like them and just ignoring your marines. go grav, TFC, Bike squad, Smash chapter master like everyone else.

Also yeah its pretty fethin free for Eldar that rending shouldn't exist.

Because I'm BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
9ppm for t3 5+ shooty models with a 12" range?

13ppm for t3 4+ shooty models with an 18" range?

There should be some way in which they can threaten Marines point-for-point. Take away Bladestorm, and they lose to Marines in every way. With Bladestorm, they each at least have a chance. Boltguns kill both hard.

You never see them, apparently, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

(If you're complaining about the Cannon, less than 1 AP2 every other round isn't that huge a factor.)

They're there, it's just always intact DA squads shooting marine squads whittled down to 1-3 models. Because marines don't have the throw weight to down Eldar tanks.

If your response is "would be true, but Knights" or "but cheese serpent", isn't that part of my point? That its the OP gak wrecking the game, not the things Boltguns should, realistically, be threatening?

Bharring wrote:
If your response is "would be true, but Knights" or "but cheese serpent", isn't that part of my point? That its the OP gak wrecking the game, not the things Boltguns should, realistically, be threatening?

If you list off all the stuff that is basically immune to boltguns or ridiculously strong against them, you end up with a list too long to nerf. In fact, GW JUST published the Wraith for Necrons, which stands out even in a list already ridiculously good against boltguns. The boltgun wasn't even good in 2nd because its competition was sonic blasters and shuriken weaponry. It's NEVER been good, except for a while in 3rd. Maybe 4th, I skipped that one.

No one runs footdar, and so bolters do not factor in against the Eldar match up at all.

I'm not advocating for any change to the boltgun. However, I would like the option to remove it and make my units cheaper so I can pay less to accomplish nothing.

Boltgun + Shred:

Vs Harlequins, standard round:
(2/3)(8/9)(2/3) = 32/81 dead Harleqins (10 marines RF kill 8)
(2/3)(3/4)(1) = 1/2 dead Orkz (10 marines kill 10)
(2/3)(8/9)(1) = 16/27 dead Guardians (10 marines kill 12)
(2/3)(8/9)(1/2) = 8/27 dead DAs or FWs (10 marines kill 6)
(2/3)(3/4)(1/2)(2/3) = 2/12 dead Necrons (10 marines kill 3.33)
(2/3)(3/4)(1/3) = 2/12 dead Marines (10 marines kill 3.33)

Shred looks insanely good at 16ppm

Actually I'd love to sell back marine S, WS, grenades, ATSKNF, pistols and boltguns so I can get some reasonable objective holders that don't suck down too many points from lists. T4 and 3+ are the only things that remotely matter. All those other stats are just more points I give up during the marine turkey shoot.

Personally I'm of the opinion that ATSKNF is a very useful and valid rule for space Marines. I know many people don't agree, but that's my 2cents.
Taking away Ws and bs is a no go as well because that fits with the SM 'elite' status.
If you want to make it cheaper then start off each SM with 0 weapons( no bolters, grenades, ccw nothing) and purchase the weapons you want on the squad for whatever purpose you have in mind for them.
BAM! No wasted points, and SM are still iconic SM.
(oh and makibg chainswords s-ap5. Would be nice, but one step at a time.)

Marines aren't elite. Get real. They are relegated to cannon fodder for the real elite units in the game. I want to sell those stats back because I'm about effectiveness, not fluff. ATSKNF is a total joke in practice.

ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

But.... you can't anymore. And BA never could. Garbage rule.

Maybe take it a step further and make tacticals ws3bs4 and assault Marines ws4 bs3.
Without grenades, bolters, pistols or cc weapons how much should a marine cost at its base? Right now its 14ppm. Without factoring in any changes to the bolter right now?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Maybe take it a step further and make tacticals ws3bs4 and assault Marines ws4 bs3.
Without grenades, bolters, pistols or cc weapons how much should a marine cost at its base? Right now its 14ppm. Without factoring in any changes to the bolter right now?

I don't know. But I don't need any gear on a model that stands by a flag the whole game and can't affect anything WITH the gear GW's given them. I'll tell you, I continue to have a greater appreciation for Starcraft, because the additional infrastructure tax for advanced units really balances things out. Marines can never be bad in Starcraft because I can always rush you before you get your elite units out. And late game marines are still viable because they cost no gas and upgrades affect them greatly. If 40K marines could rush Xenos in real time before they get their stuff "built" and actually get to fight their base units, not entire armies of god-units, they're generalist role would mean something.

Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

But I shouldn't be. There's no excuse for GW making the iconic space marine useless for its points in an actual game.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Well he is comparing a dynamic game that changes constantly to one that starts and ends with one list.

 Desubot wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Starcraft is a competitively balanced game with a focus on high-level play.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Well he is comparing a dynamic game that changes constantly to one that starts and ends with one list.

40K needs to work in some kind of dynamics like that. I fear that static lists will always have these kinds of problems.

I agree

I hate the static and alpha striky nature of this game

When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax. Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

"When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3. "

I'm a bit past caring. I'm tired of watching ineffective marines flail before being picked up by Xeno firepower. I just want the option to sell that stuff back. People can keep the failure fluff marines if they want.

"Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? "

Still too much for a tax. I just want some T4 3+ placeholders. Because those would be useful in a game with objectives. They don't need to DO anything, because they are already doing nothing. I could take a separate force with some objective secured stripped down place holders, and then put units meant to do something in a Baal Strike force.

They have 2 hearts, so maybe boost to 2 wounds?

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

Lose the boltgun and pistol and maybe get down to 9.

I personally don't like lowering theirstats as much as altering their gear. I don't think that you should lose the ability to take SM as we have them now, but rather you start with 0 upgrades and purchase whatever you want to give them. So at 14ppm you should be able to equip your Marines exactly as they are now.
This caters to the 'one role' group of players as well as allowing them to be generalits if you want them to.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
They have 2 hearts, so maybe boost to 2 wounds?

Thats impossible fluff - how could a marine have 2 hearts! I think we should ignore this fluff because it's so unnatural to have that many hearts.

I'm joking dude - these people don't care about fluff though - they think marines are guardsmen in plot armor and .77 cal rifles are standard weapons..

But their stats are one of the big sources of waste. LD, S, WS. As I said, I don't care about the fluff, since they don't perform anything like the fluff already.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When making any changes, please recall that some players don't want to lose their gear or rules, or have their tacs reduced to WS3.

If what you really want is an IG squad, why not actually field one? If its because you don't have the models, that's a fairly common conversation.

If you want cheaper tax, then field a cheaper tax Aren't Scouts 55points a unit? That's about the same as the cheapest Tau or Eldar troop taxes, too.

If it reduces their points - I certainly want their ws reduced to ws3. If it decreases their points - I'd like to lose krak and frag gernades. If it reduces their points I'd also like their LD reduced to 7 and str reduced to 3.

Then I can get a 3+ save marine for what? 11 points? I'd be real happy with that.

Lose the boltgun and pistol and maybe get down to 9.

Get a lasgun for free? no problem.

Is there some 'nunwin' rule on DakkaDakka?

Any sufficiently circular thread will eventually involve Sisters?

(Very appropriate here, but wow...)

So how about this:
Space Marine Tactical Squad: 45pts
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+ (sgt)
Wargear:
Power armor

Special Rules:
ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

May take up to 5 more marines- 9ppm
Each space marine may take from the following:
May take a bolter- 2pt
May take a bolt pistol and ccw- 1pt ( can replace ccw for chainsword for 1pt)
May take frag grenades- 1pt
May take krak grenades- 1pt
Up to 1 marine may instead take from the special or heavy weapons list for every 5 marines in squad.
Sgt has access to special, ranged, and melee weapons.

Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

There is total freedom through Unbound to create lists in 7th, if players are taking advantage by abusing the FOC (which is what makes Bolters useless) let's give credit where credit is due!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

Exalted.
Yep that would do it!

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
So how about this:
Space Marine Tactical Squad: 45pts
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W1 I4 A 1 Ld8 Sv3+ (sgt)
Wargear:
Power armor

Special Rules:
ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

May take up to 5 more marines- 9ppm
Each space marine may take from the following:
May take a bolter- 2pt
May take a bolt pistol and ccw- 1pt ( can replace ccw for chainsword for 1pt)
May take frag grenades- 1pt
May take krak grenades- 1pt
Up to 1 marine may instead take from the special or heavy weapons list for every 5 marines in squad.
Sgt has access to special, ranged, and melee weapons.

Dat chainsword - unfortunately that would be a wasted point.

Yes it would. Forgot that it has the same profile as ccw.

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

You used to be able to fail ANY moral related thing for IIRC 4-5th edtion marines.

it used to be under utilized like feth.

Being able to get shot, lose 25% then run away to deny charge is HUGE when they walk back and shoot like normal again.

our weapons are useless is only in CC which. if you are already stuck there then you are probably already in trouble. Also there will be nothing that they cannot hurt as they always have a krak grenade at sT6 edit: (actually i guess you cannot hurt av13 walkers)

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

Yes...and the unit is limited to 1 heavy and 1 special!!!

I can chose to fail moral checks when I bring papa smurf. He costs 275 though and does some other real cool stuff. Relentless orbital bombardment, an additional combat doctrine. Still A huge investment. Not really worth it per the leadership aspect - 2 turns of twin linked tactical is not bad though.

 Desubot wrote:

Szeras wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
ATSKNF used to be valid and useful when you could choose to fail moral...

Why can't you choose to fail morale anymore? A model with ATSKNF can still choose to fail morale due to "our weapons are useless".

Also I found their stats, and more importantly their point cost. They need a point drop or free CCWs or something. I'm more open to shred bolters now that I know more. 14pts is ridiculous.

You used to be able to fail ANY moral related thing for IIRC 4-5th edtion marines.

it used to be under utilized like feth.

Being able to get shot, lose 25% then run away to deny charge is HUGE when they walk back and shoot like normal again.

our weapons are useless is only in CC which. if you are already stuck there then you are probably already in trouble. Also there will be nothing that they cannot hurt as they always have a krak grenade at sT6 edit: (actually i guess you cannot hurt av13 walkers)

Okay, that makes sense. Also I had a small panic attack when I saw that Marneus Calgar was 275pts at T4 until I realized he has EW. Still rough, but at least he's not insta-gibbed by light artillery.

edit for accuracy

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here is your fix, flip a coin to see who plays which list before the game. It might reduce the tendencies of certain players to attempt to win through list skew.

There is total freedom through Unbound to create lists in 7th, if players are taking advantage by abusing the FOC (which is what makes Bolters useless) let's give credit where credit is due!

No one is going to agree to that. Especially when I'm using BA.

I don't know, might be fun. You can try playing with my non-gunline tau.

I mean no one I play with.

I know, I'm just teasing. Might be an interesting game though.

Changing the bolt gun will mean that hurricane, storm, tl on bikes, etc.. all become stronger. I dont want that to happen since DA and their dakka banner can really abuse that.

However, allowing marines to hold 2 bolters and and shoot both only means that the DA Dakka Banner will only push basic marines over the top with out buffing bikers tl bolters, terminator storm bolters and lr crusader hurricane bolters. The basic marine would either swap out their bolt pistol or pay 3ppm for the 2nd bolter.

Also my CSM will benefit from this.

Other ways to boost Marines are to allow Tac/Basic squads to carry 3 special/heavy weapons and havocs/devestators to carry 5 special/heavy weapons.

Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots.

Or allow a 2ppm upgrade called a bayonet so that they get +1 STR +1 Init on the charge in addition to furious charge if the unit has the ussr. Like GK halberds.

"Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots. "

More S4 won't help. Marines have S4 coming out their ears and none of it helps.

Because CSM don't have ATSKNF there base would be 8ppm to the tacticals 9.


All right now I'm going crazy with customization.
In addition to the weapons listed the entire squad of Space Marines may purchase the following:

Jump pack- 2ppm. 2*
Space Marine Bike-7ppm1* 2*

Tactical Doctrine-4ppm*
Assault Doctrine-4ppm*
Devastator Doctrine-4ppm*

Tactical Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Tactical Doctrine cannot be in units with the Assault or Devastator Doctrine. Bolter type weapons fired by models with the Tactical Doctrine gain the Shred special rule. Any Space Marine that purchases the Tactical Doctrine may purchase a Heavy Bolter.

Assault Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Assault Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Devastator Doctrine. Space Marines with the Assault doctrine gain the Move Through Cover special rule and may re-roll failed charge ranges. Any model that purchased the Assault squad doctrine may purchase a hand-flamer or a plasma pistol.

Devastator Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Devastator Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Assault Doctrine. Models with this doctrine snap-fire weapons at bs2. Any model that has purchased the Devastator Doctrine may purchase items from the Heavy Weapons list.
1-May not be purchased by Assault Doctrine Space Marines.
2- May not be purchased by Devastator Doctrine Space Marines.

Martel732 wrote:
"Or allow a 1 or 2 ppm upgrade called a quick magazine that allows a 1 time use where it allows marines an additional shooting phase. Or just add a static +1 shot to rapid fire and max range shots. "

More S4 won't help. Marines have S4 coming out their ears and none of it helps.

ok, well what if on a to hit roll of 6 and a to wound or pen roll of 6, the bolter gets +1Str and Ap gets improved?

That would be better, I suppose. Not sure I'd actually use boltguns though. My current 2K list has SIX bolters. I'd have zero if I could.

I generally don't use bolters myself either except as the free secondary on my grav cents. And even then its bolters with 3x then rate of fire.
On my scouts I always use shotguns or snipers, I NEVER run tacticals because they are so underwhelming.
I think a price drop the through letting you pick which gear you take is the answer for tacticals, but that STILL doesn't fix bolters for anyone else which frankly isn't fair.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I generally don't use bolters myself either except as the free secondary on my grav cents. And even then its bolters with 3x then rate of fire.
On my scouts I always use shotguns or snipers, I NEVER run tacticals because they are so underwhelming.
I think a price drop the through letting you pick which gear you take is the answer for tacticals, but that STILL doesn't fix bolters for anyone else which frankly isn't fair.

You don't upgrade the rockets on your cents? I look at it like this. 3 tl bolters is only marginally better than a frag missle and a frag missle can also get lucky and get like 6-8 hits in some situations - unless the bolters are rapid fire (cents should not really be this close to the enemy desirably assault can mess them up bad. Then ofc a 8str ap 3 shot has it's usefulness - IMO 30 points for 3 rockets is a must take. the bolters are Meh - but better than nothing i suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Because CSM don't have ATSKNF there base would be 8ppm to the tacticals 9.


All right now I'm going crazy with customization.
In addition to the weapons listed the entire squad of Space Marines may purchase the following:

Jump pack- 2ppm. 2*
Space Marine Bike-7ppm1* 2*

Tactical Doctrine-4ppm*
Assault Doctrine-4ppm*
Devastator Doctrine-4ppm*

Tactical Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Tactical Doctrine cannot be in units with the Assault or Devastator Doctrine. Bolter type weapons fired by models with the Tactical Doctrine gain the Shred special rule. Any Space Marine that purchases the Tactical Doctrine may purchase a Heavy Bolter.

Assault Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Assault Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Devastator Doctrine. Space Marines with the Assault doctrine gain the Move Through Cover special rule and may re-roll failed charge ranges. Any model that purchased the Assault squad doctrine may purchase a hand-flamer or a plasma pistol.

Devastator Doctrine-Space Marines that purchase the Devastator Doctrine cannot be in units with the Tactical or Assault Doctrine. Models with this doctrine snap-fire weapons at bs2. Any model that has purchased the Devastator Doctrine may purchase items from the Heavy Weapons list.
1-May not be purchased by Assault Doctrine Space Marines.
2- May not be purchased by Devastator Doctrine Space Marines.

I think those are cool suggestions. I think marine cost should be something like 9 points base with lots of wargear options for specialization. As stands currently i think a marine is worth about 10-11 points.

If I can find the spare points then I upgrade to missiles. But free hurricane bolters aren't bad either for free.
Usually I'm running grav centurions if I take them with maybe a lascannon on the sergeant and I pair that with the missile launcher because they have longer range + split fire to take out separate threats from the other squad.

What if instead of making bolters stronger, marines can swap out and use a jury rigged gun called a tri-laser gun? Like from fallout 3. The gun would be

24" s3 ap- salvo 3/6

or tri hot shot lasguns for 2ppm for a marine

18" s3 ap3 salvo 3/6

each marine is a walking nuclear reactor right?

I just go for dropping the price of marines (and possibly CSMs, not sure how they measure up)a point or three. If they aren't overpriced, then they wont suffer any more than any other troop in the game.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I just go for dropping the price of marines (and possibly CSMs, not sure how they measure up)a point or three. If they aren't overpriced, then they wont suffer any more than any other troop in the game.

I'm all for lowering their cost. I mathhammered it out, and for 14 points you get a marine, and for 15 points you get 3 imperial guardsmen. No matter who shoots first, assuming the marine charges once he is within 6" of the guardsmen and they are behind cover, technically the marine wins because his one wound never reaches zero using decimal places, but by the time the marine has a more than 50% chance of being dead, only one guardsmen is definitely (lost an entire wound) dead. I'd say drop 'em to 11-12 points so they are cheaper than a necron warrior with buffed RP who has a slight edge on the marine in ranged combat and about equal in melee assuming no upgrades.

Edit for RP buff mentioning... thing...

The people who want fluffy marines are still going to apoplectic. Lowering them to 11-12 points basically is admitting that their entire concept failed to get translated to the actual game in any way.

Necron Warriors are actually dead even with Tac Marines in shooting each other sans upgrades. Same odds to wound, same odds to survive

How do boltgun Marines compare to things other than Guardsmen?

Sorry, I meant warriors have a slight edge in a decurion or with a cryptek or anything really that boosts their RP. I'll edit to mention that. Also, I love mathhammer, but it's hard to compare things on the level I do. If you name some models, I'll find the stats and compare them to marines for rough equivalent costs. I just can't give you a huge overview of every model. Hope I can help!

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are actually dead even with Tac Marines in shooting each other sans upgrades. Same odds to wound, same odds to survive

How do boltgun Marines compare to things other than Guardsmen?

Thats not true. The necron has the edge at shooting hands down. Also still has the edge in cc though it is marginally smaller because of initiative is adv marine.

4+ 4+ is beter than 3+.

Naked, Necron Warriors have a 4+ 5++, or a 2/3 chance of not dying. Marines have a 3+, or a 2/3.

The 4+ 4++ requires another buff of some sort.

The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

I mean, many people are fighting changes to the BOLTGUN on here, while GW vomits out the scatterbike. Really? Really?Shred is too good on the boltgun. Well, maybe, but that doesn't seem so crazy now with the scatterbike on the job.

I don't sit down on Starcraft and threaten not to play if my opponent builds mutalisks.

I think bolters should cost 10pts more and be st6 ap6 assault (or give relentless) 4... Now if only there was a precedent...

I joke but that would be less overpowered on an infantry model with no access to jink, 12" move, 24" turbo boost and jsj.

If you think that is OP you have no right to defend the new jetbikes as they get so much more for the 3pt gap.

I apologise if this has already been mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ oh the irony.

When looked at in a vaccum you see the Necrons are basically "Space Marines but cheaper" and oh gauss!

Point for point the Necron Warriors are better in that they are scary to everything they shoot at (especially av targets) and they're relatively cheap.

Space Marines however are NOT cheap, and don't handle any 1 job particularly well( except maybe murdering guardsman.... maybe there IS a reason so many guardsman stand in awe of them in the fluff 0_o)
and they need to buy upgrades to be effective at killing any particular baddy they face. Which by the way, they don't even get the option to do effectively, because they are limited to 1 special and 1 heavy.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
When looked at in a vaccum you see the Necrons are basically "Space Marines but cheaper" and oh gauss!

Point for point the Necron Warriors are better in that they are scary to everything they shoot at (especially av targets) and they're relatively cheap.

Space Marines however are NOT cheap, and don't handle any 1 job particularly well( except maybe murdering guardsman.... maybe there IS a reason so many guardsman stand in awe of them in the fluff 0_o)
and they need to buy upgrades to be effective at killing any particular baddy they face. Which by the way, they don't even get the option to do effectively, because they are limited to 1 special and 1 heavy.

And they need a priori knowledge to really make the special weapon 100% effective. Drop meltas look dumb against a Green Tide, as does flamers against a mech list.

Martel732 wrote:
The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Assault cannons for every space marine bike would be about the same honestly. Except everyone knows how fething insane an idea that is.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Assault cannons for every space marine bike would be about the same honestly. Except everyone knows how fething insane an idea that is.

No. What's insane is that it would STILL be inferior to what the Eldar are getting. Because 12" move with 36" range trumps every assault cannon in the world carried by an infantryman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

Well a good point to remember here is that jetbikes are troop choices.... automatically.

Wheras SM have to purchase an expensive HQ option and then have to field at least 5 bikes for them to be troops.

Also another huge part of the problem is that for less then the cost of two space marines which have already discussed are OVERCOSTED, and generally conceded as inferior to scouts (28pts for 2 SM, 27 for a bike with lasers or shuriken cannon) you get the SAME stat line + jink+ twice the movement speed + 2S on all weapon shots+ 4x as many shots ( only 2X if in rapid fire range OH YEAH! ) and can STILL take bright lances on all models if they want for high AV.

GW go home, your drunk.

Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. With the 4+/4+++, the Necron warrior does have the advantage. But that's not naked.

But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Redoing the numbers, with Necrons bringing that buff:

10 Marines attack:
10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 10/12

9.2 Warriors attack
9.2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 9.2/12

Oddly enough, they are exactly evenly matched, assuming neither charges, sans CT, except that Marines strike first.

So, even buffed, Necrons lose.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

Silly, shred would be free at this point. Why, for 27 pts, Eldar can get a scatter bike. The bar has been raised. A lot.

Bharring wrote:
For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Well if you can make it into cc your golden(ish). Its getting there that hurts. ( plus you have a pistol so its not all bad)

If drop pods let you assault t1 then the codex would suddenly become op because of things like using assault marines for troops or ironclads. Even then, Tacticals STILL wouldn't be worth taking in their present state!

Bharring wrote:
For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Redoing the numbers, with Necrons bringing that buff:

10 Marines attack:
10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 10/12

9.2 Warriors attack
9.2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 9.2/12

Oddly enough, they are exactly evenly matched, assuming neither charges, sans CT, except that Marines strike first.

So, even buffed, Necrons lose.

Assuming you can get 10 marines that close. Intact. Without running into Wraiths first. You do an excellent, EXCELLENT job of finding the little niches where tac marines look decent. But by not putting them into the context of an actual game, and the actual units they will run into, it's all just a thought experiment. I'm elated that someone gets good usage out of tac marines, but I can't help but think that your opponents aren't putting out the best lists that they could be.

Or the scatter bikes are broken. Setting the bar there makes a lot more further from par than setting it around the middle.

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

Silly, shred would be free at this point. Why, for 27 pts, Eldar can get a scatter bike. The bar has been raised. A lot.

Argh. The power creep is so real right now.

So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

Bharring wrote:
Or the scatter bikes are broken. Setting the bar there makes a lot more further from par than setting it around the middle.

The are the new bar, unless they are banned. Just as Michael Jordan is the bar for basketball and Jack Nicklaus is the bar for golfing. In competitive endeavours, people strive for the best, not mediocrity. Broken, in practice, is irrelevant. There is legal and not legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

Fine. The Necron warriors with 4+/4+++ lose the tac marines. Happy? Too bad your scenario will never happen in an actual game.

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

No they beat them because the other player just shoots you as you walk up the board to them. Then they fire overwatch. Then they have the numerical advantage, and win cc. Afterall what kind of necron player charges their warriors into cc?
Its really quite simple.
The side that DOESN'T want to be in cc has the advantage almost always.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

This.

Or do whatever you like, just make my Fleshborers as good. Deal?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

No they beat them because the other player just shoots you as you walk up the board to them. Then they fire overwatch. Then they have the numerical advantage, and win cc. Afterall what kind of necron player charges their warriors into cc?
Its really quite simple.
The side that DOESN'T want to be in cc has the advantage almost always.

As I said, his scenario will never happen in an actual game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eskimo wrote:

 Flame-Rage wrote:
Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

This.

Or do whatever you like, just make my Fleshborers as good. Deal?

Sure, why not? It still won't be as good as a scatterbike. I would have been called an IoM homer for suggesting something even 2/3 as good for marines a month ago.

I'm not saying walk up and try to charge, without shooting.

The groupthink believed Necrons would win that matchup because Necron OP. I wanted to correct that falsehood. So, on that level, I guess yes, I am happy.

(Also, those numbers were without charging, just to remind you).

The side that wants to be in CC actually has the edge, because he has one option the side that doesn't want to be doesn't. This means the other side can't push for CC, so forces their hand.

As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors.

That said, with buffs, Necron Warriors will beat naked Tacs it seems.

"As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors. "

Thanks to the changes to assaulting from vehicles, marines have this problem in general. Boy, I'm glad that have all that WS, S, and greandes! Your point about HTH having an edge meant something in 3rd ed or maybe 5th ed (not really), but not in 7th.

I myself could sit down and find dozens of HTH matchup that tac squads would win. But those match ups don't occur in real games, so they might as well not exist. There is a huge gulf between the thought experiment and the game as played.

CC not happening and said CC not mattering are very different things.

Flat-outing a Falcon onto an objective T4 when there are a bunch of CC threats sitting there probably isn't going to happen, because CC. But that CC will never happen.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not saying walk up and try to charge, without shooting.

The groupthink believed Necrons would win that matchup because Necron OP. I wanted to correct that falsehood. So, on that level, I guess yes, I am happy.

(Also, those numbers were without charging, just to remind you).

The side that wants to be in CC actually has the edge, because he has one option the side that doesn't want to be doesn't. This means the other side can't push for CC, so forces their hand.

As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors.

That said, with buffs, Necron Warriors will beat naked Tacs it seems.

Yes the buffed necrons beat them in cc and they also are cheaper per model. Hurray for "balance"

Bharring wrote:
CC not happening and said CC not mattering are very different things.

Flat-outing a Falcon onto an objective T4 when there are a bunch of CC threats sitting there probably isn't going to happen, because CC. But that CC will never happen.

You are acting like this is a game where 90% of CC threats can't be shot off the table trivially by good lists. They can and they care. That's why Wraiths and TWC are so special. Xenos actually have to work kinda hard to shoot them off the table. The Imperium?Even worse off.

A lot of your scenarios involve there not being the kind of firepower on the table that I see month in and month out. That grav star or WS squad is just going to eliminate something standing in an inconvenient location. Because that's what GW has written will happen.

Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

Bharring wrote:
Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

It doesn't really matter. Both will be shot by scatterlasers before they can engage. Even if the Eldar aren't present at the table. THAT'S how many scatterlasers we are talking here.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

It doesn't really matter. Both will be shot by scatterlasers before they can engage. Even if the Eldar aren't present at the table. THAT'S how many scatterlasers we are talking here.

This^

So, because one unit ruins every game its in, all games -even when neither player takes them - should be ruined?

Bharring wrote:
So, because one unit ruins every game its in, all games -even when neither player takes them - should be ruined?

It's called sarcasm. And exasperation.

It's hyperbole and humor. He's not actually saying the scatterbikes are going to start winning games that they're not playing in.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dang beat me to it

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
It's hyperbole and humor. He's not actually saying the scatterbikes are going to start winning games that they're not playing in.

Wait for Phil Kelly's 8th ed Eldar codex. He'll remedy that situation.

On a related note, if things start getting balanced around them at an uneven pace, wouldn't it, though?

For instance, if we gave every Marine an Assault Cannon, because ScatterBikes, suddenly my UM are destroying every non-Eldar force with stupid levels of dakka?

I can't imagine that'd be fun for anyone.

Besides ONLY massed Hunter killer missiles can win games from accross boards. Thought you would have known that.

Bharring wrote:
On a related note, if things start getting balanced around them at an uneven pace, wouldn't it, though?

For instance, if we gave every Marine an Assault Cannon, because ScatterBikes, suddenly my UM are destroying every non-Eldar force with stupid levels of dakka?

I can't imagine that'd be fun for anyone.

It would be fun for two armies instead of one. Why should Eldar have all the fun? If everyone is OP, then no one is OP.

Let's assume 10 armies. And by Marines, we only mean BAs. (Not true, but simpler math)

With only Eldar OP, 9 out of 100 possible matchups are dumb. 4.5% of players get boned.
With Eldar and BA OP, its 16 out of 100 possible matchups that are dumb. 8% of players get boned.
With Eldar and half the armies as OP (5/10), its 25% of matchups that are dumb, or 12.5% of players get boned.

As the ratio of stupidly-overpowered diverges *away* from 50%, the ratio of dumb games decreases.

Bharring wrote:
Let's assume 10 armies. And by Marines, we only mean BAs. (Not true, but simpler math)

With only Eldar OP, 9 out of 100 possible matchups are dumb. 4.5% of players get boned.
With Eldar and BA OP, its 16 out of 100 possible matchups that are dumb. 8% of players get boned.
With Eldar and half the armies as OP (5/10), its 25% of matchups that are dumb, or 12.5% of players get boned.

As the ratio of stupidly-overpowered diverges *away* from 50%, the ratio of dumb games decreases.

But I'm sure my meta will be over 50% Eldar when this drops. Once one list is OP, they all need to be OP.

You totally could have made an incredible reference there. I'm ashamed of you.

Well apocalypse is all about op things killing each other
Perhaps we don't give GW enough credit. This what they wanted all along

If "go play Eldar" is not an acceptable answer to balance, why is "go play Eldar or Marines"?

Doesn't seem reasonable.

Funny thought just occurred: Scatterbikes in kill teams.
Even that's runied now

Bharring wrote:
If "go play Eldar" is not an acceptable answer to balance, why is "go play Eldar or Marines"?

Doesn't seem reasonable.

Variety. But would extend this logic to all lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Funny thought just occurred: Scatterbikes in kill teams.
Even that's runied now

Oh my goodness.

Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's clear GW has no intention of ever doing that. They are the new hotness. Eldar are getting buffed, not nerfed.

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's a nice thought, but they are just releasing them with these rules, and another codex won't come for probably 2+ years.
I can't think of a time where they released an FAQ just nto Nerf something.
Face it. Scatter bikes are here to stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal theory is that GW is trying to soften the blow for when they add +1W to every unit C:SM for free.
Hence scatterbikes

So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

It will be if I ever get my BT army done. Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor to infiltrate a LR Crusader with a great big choppy Crusader mob inside.
Drop Pod some moar crusaders.
Have another LR Crusader rolling up. Moar Crusaders.

Ima punch some Ultramarines.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

It's a lot of house ruling to make the bolter relevant again.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

Well more like every IoM army. Bolters are EVERYWHERE.
Yet people misunderstand that bolters+ shred =/= overpowered. It just makes them slightly more effective at killing the same things they are sorta ok at killing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

It will be if I ever get my BT army done. Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor to infiltrate a LR Crusader with a great big choppy Crusader mob inside.
Drop Pod some moar crusaders.
Have another LR Crusader rolling up. Moar Crusaders.

Ima punch some Ultramarines.

The eldar are just going to lance you to death, or shoot you with D weapons. Wraith anything also gets you.
The Necrons kill you for obvious reasons.
Imperial Knights.
Haywire and melta still wreck you. (whereas a wave serpent hardly cares.)
Shall I go on?

Both Land Raiders and CC suck in this edition. Except in those rare instances where you have things like AchillesLand Raiders or Lychguard

But us UltraMarine decendants will give you a good game!

We'll show you why you shouldn't stray from the Codex Astarte's!

Blam!

I advocate for Shred being universal for Bolt weapons, assuming that Scouts become 12 points/model, and Bikes go up to 22/model. Most other Bolter-wielding models aren't exactly worth fielding anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's a nice thought, but they are just releasing them with these rules, and another codex won't come for probably 2+ years.
I can't think of a time where they released an FAQ just nto Nerf something.
Face it. Scatter bikes are here to stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal theory is that GW is trying to soften the blow for when they add +1W to every unit C:SM for free.
Hence scatterbikes

When the Tau Codex came out, *any* character with armory access could take two Missile Drones. Shas'uis, stealth shas'vres, etc. GW released a FAQ on Day One saying "No, only Broadsides can do this". They also released a FAQ clarifying that yes, Crisis Suits can take doubles of the same weapon (as beforehand, there was the assumption that "no you couldn't" due to how the previous codex worked).

Turn marines into mounts for Sisters of Battle and let him dual wield Bolters.

Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

Bharring wrote:
Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

It's bolters all the way down.

Bharring wrote:
Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

Chain the sister up with another sister and youd get Nun-Chuck Bolters, four sisters dual weilding bolters for 8 bolters in hand... Ohh ohhh ohh make it Storm bolters

Suddenly "balance" is achieved. Who knew all it took was octupling the marines firepower?

omg, I wish you could model marines holding 2 SoB with 2 Bolters each and play an army like that.