Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry, I meant warriors have a slight edge in a decurion or with a cryptek or anything really that boosts their RP. I'll edit to mention that. Also, I love mathhammer, but it's hard to compare things on the level I do. If you name some models, I'll find the stats and compare them to marines for rough equivalent costs. I just can't give you a huge overview of every model. Hope I can help!

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are actually dead even with Tac Marines in shooting each other sans upgrades. Same odds to wound, same odds to survive

How do boltgun Marines compare to things other than Guardsmen?

Thats not true. The necron has the edge at shooting hands down. Also still has the edge in cc though it is marginally smaller because of initiative is adv marine.

4+ 4+ is beter than 3+.

Naked, Necron Warriors have a 4+ 5++, or a 2/3 chance of not dying. Marines have a 3+, or a 2/3.

The 4+ 4++ requires another buff of some sort.

The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

I mean, many people are fighting changes to the BOLTGUN on here, while GW vomits out the scatterbike. Really? Really?Shred is too good on the boltgun. Well, maybe, but that doesn't seem so crazy now with the scatterbike on the job.

I don't sit down on Starcraft and threaten not to play if my opponent builds mutalisks.

I think bolters should cost 10pts more and be st6 ap6 assault (or give relentless) 4... Now if only there was a precedent...

I joke but that would be less overpowered on an infantry model with no access to jink, 12" move, 24" turbo boost and jsj.

If you think that is OP you have no right to defend the new jetbikes as they get so much more for the 3pt gap.

I apologise if this has already been mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ oh the irony.

When looked at in a vaccum you see the Necrons are basically "Space Marines but cheaper" and oh gauss!

Point for point the Necron Warriors are better in that they are scary to everything they shoot at (especially av targets) and they're relatively cheap.

Space Marines however are NOT cheap, and don't handle any 1 job particularly well( except maybe murdering guardsman.... maybe there IS a reason so many guardsman stand in awe of them in the fluff 0_o)
and they need to buy upgrades to be effective at killing any particular baddy they face. Which by the way, they don't even get the option to do effectively, because they are limited to 1 special and 1 heavy.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
When looked at in a vaccum you see the Necrons are basically "Space Marines but cheaper" and oh gauss!

Point for point the Necron Warriors are better in that they are scary to everything they shoot at (especially av targets) and they're relatively cheap.

Space Marines however are NOT cheap, and don't handle any 1 job particularly well( except maybe murdering guardsman.... maybe there IS a reason so many guardsman stand in awe of them in the fluff 0_o)
and they need to buy upgrades to be effective at killing any particular baddy they face. Which by the way, they don't even get the option to do effectively, because they are limited to 1 special and 1 heavy.

And they need a priori knowledge to really make the special weapon 100% effective. Drop meltas look dumb against a Green Tide, as does flamers against a mech list.

Martel732 wrote:
The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Assault cannons for every space marine bike would be about the same honestly. Except everyone knows how fething insane an idea that is.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The confusion comes in that Necrons almost never NOT have the buff. This is another thread that can probably die with the advent of scatterbikes. There is no conceivable buff for bolters or meqs in general that is going to close that gap.

Assault cannons for every space marine bike would be about the same honestly. Except everyone knows how fething insane an idea that is.

No. What's insane is that it would STILL be inferior to what the Eldar are getting. Because 12" move with 36" range trumps every assault cannon in the world carried by an infantryman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

Well a good point to remember here is that jetbikes are troop choices.... automatically.

Wheras SM have to purchase an expensive HQ option and then have to field at least 5 bikes for them to be troops.

Also another huge part of the problem is that for less then the cost of two space marines which have already discussed are OVERCOSTED, and generally conceded as inferior to scouts (28pts for 2 SM, 27 for a bike with lasers or shuriken cannon) you get the SAME stat line + jink+ twice the movement speed + 2S on all weapon shots+ 4x as many shots ( only 2X if in rapid fire range OH YEAH! ) and can STILL take bright lances on all models if they want for high AV.

GW go home, your drunk.

Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. With the 4+/4+++, the Necron warrior does have the advantage. But that's not naked.

But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Redoing the numbers, with Necrons bringing that buff:

10 Marines attack:
10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 10/12

9.2 Warriors attack
9.2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 9.2/12

Oddly enough, they are exactly evenly matched, assuming neither charges, sans CT, except that Marines strike first.

So, even buffed, Necrons lose.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

Silly, shred would be free at this point. Why, for 27 pts, Eldar can get a scatter bike. The bar has been raised. A lot.

Bharring wrote:
For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Well if you can make it into cc your golden(ish). Its getting there that hurts. ( plus you have a pistol so its not all bad)

If drop pods let you assault t1 then the codex would suddenly become op because of things like using assault marines for troops or ironclads. Even then, Tacticals STILL wouldn't be worth taking in their present state!

Bharring wrote:
For you, maybe.

My Tacs use their CC advantage in games.

Redoing the numbers, with Necrons bringing that buff:

10 Marines attack:
10x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 10/12

9.2 Warriors attack
9.2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 9.2/12

Oddly enough, they are exactly evenly matched, assuming neither charges, sans CT, except that Marines strike first.

So, even buffed, Necrons lose.

Assuming you can get 10 marines that close. Intact. Without running into Wraiths first. You do an excellent, EXCELLENT job of finding the little niches where tac marines look decent. But by not putting them into the context of an actual game, and the actual units they will run into, it's all just a thought experiment. I'm elated that someone gets good usage out of tac marines, but I can't help but think that your opponents aren't putting out the best lists that they could be.

Or the scatter bikes are broken. Setting the bar there makes a lot more further from par than setting it around the middle.

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Odds are, that matchup isn't what would happen. But that post is in response to the idea that naked Necron Warriors somehow have a slight advantage in CC. they do not.

A little intellectual honesty would go a long way.

We already talked about how a buff was assumed for that. But my point stands that an "advantage" in HTH is becoming increasingly a non-advantage for anything that isn't a Wraith or TWC.

Or Imperial Knight+

This is still a shooting edition after all.

Wait a second... Why would you want to increase the cost of SM to give them shred if we know that they are already overcosted? Why keep the overcost trend going?
I think that S4 shred might be the buff that bolter wielding armies need right now.

Silly, shred would be free at this point. Why, for 27 pts, Eldar can get a scatter bike. The bar has been raised. A lot.

Argh. The power creep is so real right now.

So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

Bharring wrote:
Or the scatter bikes are broken. Setting the bar there makes a lot more further from par than setting it around the middle.

The are the new bar, unless they are banned. Just as Michael Jordan is the bar for basketball and Jack Nicklaus is the bar for golfing. In competitive endeavours, people strive for the best, not mediocrity. Broken, in practice, is irrelevant. There is legal and not legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

Fine. The Necron warriors with 4+/4+++ lose the tac marines. Happy? Too bad your scenario will never happen in an actual game.

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

No they beat them because the other player just shoots you as you walk up the board to them. Then they fire overwatch. Then they have the numerical advantage, and win cc. Afterall what kind of necron player charges their warriors into cc?
Its really quite simple.
The side that DOESN'T want to be in cc has the advantage almost always.

 Flame-Rage wrote:
Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

This.

Or do whatever you like, just make my Fleshborers as good. Deal?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So Necron Warriors now beat Marines in melee 1-to-1 because Wraiths?

Umm, what was the statement again?

No they beat them because the other player just shoots you as you walk up the board to them. Then they fire overwatch. Then they have the numerical advantage, and win cc. Afterall what kind of necron player charges their warriors into cc?
Its really quite simple.
The side that DOESN'T want to be in cc has the advantage almost always.

As I said, his scenario will never happen in an actual game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eskimo wrote:

 Flame-Rage wrote:
Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

This.

Or do whatever you like, just make my Fleshborers as good. Deal?

Sure, why not? It still won't be as good as a scatterbike. I would have been called an IoM homer for suggesting something even 2/3 as good for marines a month ago.

I'm not saying walk up and try to charge, without shooting.

The groupthink believed Necrons would win that matchup because Necron OP. I wanted to correct that falsehood. So, on that level, I guess yes, I am happy.

(Also, those numbers were without charging, just to remind you).

The side that wants to be in CC actually has the edge, because he has one option the side that doesn't want to be doesn't. This means the other side can't push for CC, so forces their hand.

As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors.

That said, with buffs, Necron Warriors will beat naked Tacs it seems.

"As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors. "

Thanks to the changes to assaulting from vehicles, marines have this problem in general. Boy, I'm glad that have all that WS, S, and greandes! Your point about HTH having an edge meant something in 3rd ed or maybe 5th ed (not really), but not in 7th.

I myself could sit down and find dozens of HTH matchup that tac squads would win. But those match ups don't occur in real games, so they might as well not exist. There is a huge gulf between the thought experiment and the game as played.

CC not happening and said CC not mattering are very different things.

Flat-outing a Falcon onto an objective T4 when there are a bunch of CC threats sitting there probably isn't going to happen, because CC. But that CC will never happen.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not saying walk up and try to charge, without shooting.

The groupthink believed Necrons would win that matchup because Necron OP. I wanted to correct that falsehood. So, on that level, I guess yes, I am happy.

(Also, those numbers were without charging, just to remind you).

The side that wants to be in CC actually has the edge, because he has one option the side that doesn't want to be doesn't. This means the other side can't push for CC, so forces their hand.

As long as "wants to be in CC" either has shenanigans to get there, or can hold its own in shooting, which is where Tacs have problems vs Decurion Necron Warriors.

That said, with buffs, Necron Warriors will beat naked Tacs it seems.

Yes the buffed necrons beat them in cc and they also are cheaper per model. Hurray for "balance"