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Bharring wrote:
CC not happening and said CC not mattering are very different things.

Flat-outing a Falcon onto an objective T4 when there are a bunch of CC threats sitting there probably isn't going to happen, because CC. But that CC will never happen.

You are acting like this is a game where 90% of CC threats can't be shot off the table trivially by good lists. They can and they care. That's why Wraiths and TWC are so special. Xenos actually have to work kinda hard to shoot them off the table. The Imperium?Even worse off.

A lot of your scenarios involve there not being the kind of firepower on the table that I see month in and month out. That grav star or WS squad is just going to eliminate something standing in an inconvenient location. Because that's what GW has written will happen.

Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

Bharring wrote:
Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

It doesn't really matter. Both will be shot by scatterlasers before they can engage. Even if the Eldar aren't present at the table. THAT'S how many scatterlasers we are talking here.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Doom - I was saying the buffed Necron Warriors beat naked Tacs in shooting. Even buffed, they lose to Tacs in CC, even without Tacs charging.

It doesn't really matter. Both will be shot by scatterlasers before they can engage. Even if the Eldar aren't present at the table. THAT'S how many scatterlasers we are talking here.

This^

So, because one unit ruins every game its in, all games -even when neither player takes them - should be ruined?

Bharring wrote:
So, because one unit ruins every game its in, all games -even when neither player takes them - should be ruined?

It's called sarcasm. And exasperation.

It's hyperbole and humor. He's not actually saying the scatterbikes are going to start winning games that they're not playing in.



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Dang beat me to it

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
It's hyperbole and humor. He's not actually saying the scatterbikes are going to start winning games that they're not playing in.

Wait for Phil Kelly's 8th ed Eldar codex. He'll remedy that situation.

On a related note, if things start getting balanced around them at an uneven pace, wouldn't it, though?

For instance, if we gave every Marine an Assault Cannon, because ScatterBikes, suddenly my UM are destroying every non-Eldar force with stupid levels of dakka?

I can't imagine that'd be fun for anyone.

Besides ONLY massed Hunter killer missiles can win games from accross boards. Thought you would have known that.

Bharring wrote:
On a related note, if things start getting balanced around them at an uneven pace, wouldn't it, though?

For instance, if we gave every Marine an Assault Cannon, because ScatterBikes, suddenly my UM are destroying every non-Eldar force with stupid levels of dakka?

I can't imagine that'd be fun for anyone.

It would be fun for two armies instead of one. Why should Eldar have all the fun? If everyone is OP, then no one is OP.

Let's assume 10 armies. And by Marines, we only mean BAs. (Not true, but simpler math)

With only Eldar OP, 9 out of 100 possible matchups are dumb. 4.5% of players get boned.
With Eldar and BA OP, its 16 out of 100 possible matchups that are dumb. 8% of players get boned.
With Eldar and half the armies as OP (5/10), its 25% of matchups that are dumb, or 12.5% of players get boned.

As the ratio of stupidly-overpowered diverges *away* from 50%, the ratio of dumb games decreases.

Bharring wrote:
Let's assume 10 armies. And by Marines, we only mean BAs. (Not true, but simpler math)

With only Eldar OP, 9 out of 100 possible matchups are dumb. 4.5% of players get boned.
With Eldar and BA OP, its 16 out of 100 possible matchups that are dumb. 8% of players get boned.
With Eldar and half the armies as OP (5/10), its 25% of matchups that are dumb, or 12.5% of players get boned.

As the ratio of stupidly-overpowered diverges *away* from 50%, the ratio of dumb games decreases.

But I'm sure my meta will be over 50% Eldar when this drops. Once one list is OP, they all need to be OP.

You totally could have made an incredible reference there. I'm ashamed of you.

Well apocalypse is all about op things killing each other
Perhaps we don't give GW enough credit. This what they wanted all along

If "go play Eldar" is not an acceptable answer to balance, why is "go play Eldar or Marines"?

Doesn't seem reasonable.

Funny thought just occurred: Scatterbikes in kill teams.
Even that's runied now

Bharring wrote:
If "go play Eldar" is not an acceptable answer to balance, why is "go play Eldar or Marines"?

Doesn't seem reasonable.

Variety. But would extend this logic to all lists.


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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Funny thought just occurred: Scatterbikes in kill teams.
Even that's runied now

Oh my goodness.

Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's clear GW has no intention of ever doing that. They are the new hotness. Eldar are getting buffed, not nerfed.

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's a nice thought, but they are just releasing them with these rules, and another codex won't come for probably 2+ years.
I can't think of a time where they released an FAQ just nto Nerf something.
Face it. Scatter bikes are here to stay.


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My personal theory is that GW is trying to soften the blow for when they add +1W to every unit C:SM for free.
Hence scatterbikes

So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

Martel732 wrote:

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Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


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I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

It will be if I ever get my BT army done. Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor to infiltrate a LR Crusader with a great big choppy Crusader mob inside.
Drop Pod some moar crusaders.
Have another LR Crusader rolling up. Moar Crusaders.

Ima punch some Ultramarines.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

It's a lot of house ruling to make the bolter relevant again.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So? GW won't be buffing all armies to Eldar levels anytime soon.

I mean, it's not like anything we come up with here is official, is it? It's a lot simpler to houserule a nerf to one unit then it is to housereule a buff to every other army (or in this case, every flavour of space marines).

Well more like every IoM army. Bolters are EVERYWHERE.
Yet people misunderstand that bolters+ shred =/= overpowered. It just makes them slightly more effective at killing the same things they are sorta ok at killing.


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 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are much worse in CC:

10 vs 10

Marines:
10x1x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) = 10/9 dead Necrons

Necrons then attack:
8.9x1x(1/2)(1/2)(1/3) = 8.9/12 dead Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about y'all, but I'm not abandoning the game just because players *can* ruin the game. Might wind up fielding my Footdar less, as people will hate Eldar even more, but the game isn't dead.

Hand to hand. That's so cute. Someone thinks hand to hand is a thing still.

It will be if I ever get my BT army done. Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor to infiltrate a LR Crusader with a great big choppy Crusader mob inside.
Drop Pod some moar crusaders.
Have another LR Crusader rolling up. Moar Crusaders.

Ima punch some Ultramarines.

The eldar are just going to lance you to death, or shoot you with D weapons. Wraith anything also gets you.
The Necrons kill you for obvious reasons.
Imperial Knights.
Haywire and melta still wreck you. (whereas a wave serpent hardly cares.)
Shall I go on?

Both Land Raiders and CC suck in this edition. Except in those rare instances where you have things like AchillesLand Raiders or Lychguard

But us UltraMarine decendants will give you a good game!

We'll show you why you shouldn't stray from the Codex Astarte's!

Blam!

I advocate for Shred being universal for Bolt weapons, assuming that Scouts become 12 points/model, and Bikes go up to 22/model. Most other Bolter-wielding models aren't exactly worth fielding anyway.


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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Or, instead of updating everything to ScatterBike levels, why not nerf ScatterBikes?

It's a nice thought, but they are just releasing them with these rules, and another codex won't come for probably 2+ years.
I can't think of a time where they released an FAQ just nto Nerf something.
Face it. Scatter bikes are here to stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal theory is that GW is trying to soften the blow for when they add +1W to every unit C:SM for free.
Hence scatterbikes

When the Tau Codex came out, *any* character with armory access could take two Missile Drones. Shas'uis, stealth shas'vres, etc. GW released a FAQ on Day One saying "No, only Broadsides can do this". They also released a FAQ clarifying that yes, Crisis Suits can take doubles of the same weapon (as beforehand, there was the assumption that "no you couldn't" due to how the previous codex worked).

Turn marines into mounts for Sisters of Battle and let him dual wield Bolters.

Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

Bharring wrote:
Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

It's bolters all the way down.

Bharring wrote:
Let Marines duel wield Sisters, who duel wield bolters?

Chain the sister up with another sister and youd get Nun-Chuck Bolters, four sisters dual weilding bolters for 8 bolters in hand... Ohh ohhh ohh make it Storm bolters