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The difference in defensive stats make Boltguns not so scary. A Fire Warrior or a Dire Avenger dies twice as fast to a boltgun shot as a Marine. A Guardian dies four times as fast.

Even against the dreaded S6AP6 spam, DAs die 50% faster than Marines, for the same cost (as CSM - easier to compare to something without CT).

Boltguns can do something. But you're so used to taking so little damage from them you don't realize what they can do.

As for other troops not being in their league, (1) this discussion is mostly on a per-points level, and (2), Necron Warriors and Eldar Aspect Warriors *are* in their league.

Personally I think that giving bolters( including pistols and anything that use the bolt profile) shred is a good buff that is not nearly as op people are worried about. Remember the suggestion is not just for Marines so it serves as an incentive to other codexes units to take them as well.

My second favorite idea is just to give them assault 2 so that it gives more tactical flexibility and allows( especially Marines) the ability to more fully use the stats they have instead of wasting half of them on any given turn.

In either case I think that a 1-2pt increase per model would be worth it to make bolters worthwhile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:MORE worthwhile

Making them assault 1 at 24" and assault 2 at 12" might be interesting, allowing them to storm at and take out regular troops in melee, without giving up the shooting phase.

Really though, I just go for dropping the price of Tac squads and allowing them to take more heavy/special weapons.

Bharring wrote:
"Show me an Elite choice that doesn't wipe a 10man tactical squad with ease":

CW Eldar:
Harlequins
Banshees
Scorpions

Marines:
Tac Termies
Assault Termies
Assault Cents
Rifle Dread

Tau:
Stealth Suits
Any non-Plasma Crisis Suit

Things Marines with Boltguns kill easily:
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Wind riders
Banshees
Harlequins
Hawks
Dark Reapers
Kroot
Pathfinders
Kalabites
Wyches

Just a few answers off the top of my head.

I never said Tacs with Boltguns should be Elites. They are - and should be - Troops.

OFC i was refering to units that are armed properly and used properly.

Dark reapers are probably the best anti meq in the game...what the heck are they doing on your list?
You listed a lot of "troops" I said elites.
Marines are good vs harlequins now? You do know they easily wipe a 10 man squad of tacs before they can even retaliate right? To be fair (the do cost more)
Marines vs windriders is also a huge joke. Not only are they as tough and cost about the same - they also do way more dmg are twice as mobile and can assault after they shoot - thats adv windriders all the way. (and these are troops. actually they are eldar potters and glass makers - still own marines though.)
Banshees are about the only good example that you listed and their problem is much more one of practicality. They can't get to the marines - if they do assault the marines at equal points. Banshees win by a landslide.
What combinations of weapons do you see on crisis suits these days? There are so few bad combinations of weapons vs marines I can't exactly think of one. Even double flamer will wreck a squad of marines.

Double flamer suits is one of the most hilarious setups out there, so many templates...

Bharring wrote:
The difference in defensive stats make Boltguns not so scary. A Fire Warrior or a Dire Avenger dies twice as fast to a boltgun shot as a Marine. A Guardian dies four times as fast.

Even against the dreaded S6AP6 spam, DAs die 50% faster than Marines, for the same cost (as CSM - easier to compare to something without CT).

Boltguns can do something. But you're so used to taking so little damage from them you don't realize what they can do.

As for other troops not being in their league, (1) this discussion is mostly on a per-points level, and (2), Necron Warriors and Eldar Aspect Warriors *are* in their league.

No, I'm used to INFLICTING very little damage with them. I know what they can do: nothing. I'll take Necron warriors all day every day, since they can actually do something to the Wave Serpent protecting all of your examples. By the time the bolter might be doing something that you describe, the game is over or decided.

Shuriken catapults are much more effective in an actual game because the Eldar are much better and demeching marines than vice versa. Once the squishy, helpless tac squads are out of their metal bawkses, shuriken catapults are great for cleaning up crippled squads.

Note that I'm not advocating for a buff, because I don't think there's an appropriate buff available in the D6 system. I accept their uselessness and minimize their presence in my lists.

Re: Harlequins
Try shooting them. With boltguns. If you don't shoot them, don't be surprised if they can, model for model, win in melee. But they cost more. And die a LOT more easily.

Shooting:
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27 dead Harlequins per boltgun shot. So, for every 3 Marines shooting in rapid fire, that's 2 dead Harlequins. Its going to be painful. At 15ppm minimum. So shoot them?

As for wiping a 10-man Marine squad before retaliation, on average dice, if Harlies charge, a naked Harlie kills 1/9 marines per attack. So they need 90 attacks, on average. At 4 attacks per model, that's 22.5 harlequins. Nearly double a max squad.

With Kisses?
1x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 5/9
3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 3x(1/9)

So, at 20ppm, a t3 5++ model can kill, on average, 8/9ths of a Marine per round. Throw in the Troup Master, and well call it even. So, over 200 points of paper assault can wipe 140 points of shooting, assuming they don't get shot at all.

Not seeing that as a problem. Again, try shooting. Even with just 1 round of rapid fire, you're looking at killing 6+ of them, giving you the win.

Yes, Marines can destroy Harlequins with boltguns.

I don't know anything about harlequins. I'm talking about real Eldar.

Dark Reapers shouldn't be in that list. It was an oversight. I was picking units that lost heavily to boltgun fire, and didn't think through that one.

The first list are Elites that match the comment. Basically, Elites lower on the stack that Marines can generally counter. Didn't think all of them through, but there are a lot of them.

The second list is thongd that Marines can destroy usually.

(Wind riders are 17ppm, so more expensive than SM. They have a 12" range, but can move 2d6" afterwards. So, they are getting a return volley. Wind riders do a little more damage, but cost a lot more points, suck horribly in CC, and risk being charged to shoot at anything. They are taken for their mobility, as they are worse than naked Tacs on the line, albeit not by much.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, Marines should be buffed because they should destroy not only almost any troops in the game, but also most other things?

Why isn't being good at most other infantry not enough for them?

If you don't want bolters to be considered the basic gun, then there'd have to only be me codex that uses the boltgun (rather than the 9 that there are now).

If there is a standard gun in 9 armies how is this not the 'basic' gun? Why would it instead be a gun that's only available in one codex?

(Until the 16th, Harlequins are still Elite options in the CW dex. They're just almost entirely worse than their new rules set.)

Because they don't often get to fight infantry. For being "generalists", they are damn useless in a general sense.

I just don't think the marine schtick mathematically works at all without their crutches like gravstars. I know the BA don't work.

Personally, I'd rather have Ork shootas than boltguns. That just seems kinda pathetic for humanity's elites.

Bharring wrote:
Re: Harlequins
Try shooting them. With boltguns. If you don't shoot them, don't be surprised if they can, model for model, win in melee. But they cost more. And die a LOT more easily.

Shooting:
(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27 dead Harlequins per boltgun shot. So, for every 3 Marines shooting in rapid fire, that's 2 dead Harlequins. Its going to be painful. At 15ppm minimum. So shoot them?

As for wiping a 10-man Marine squad before retaliation, on average dice, if Harlies charge, a naked Harlie kills 1/9 marines per attack. So they need 90 attacks, on average. At 4 attacks per model, that's 22.5 harlequins. Nearly double a max squad.

With Kisses?
1x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 5/9
3x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 3x(1/9)

So, at 20ppm, a t3 5++ model can kill, on average, 8/9ths of a Marine per round. Throw in the Troup Master, and well call it even. So, over 200 points of paper assault can wipe 140 points of shooting, assuming they don't get shot at all.

Not seeing that as a problem. Again, try shooting. Even with just 1 round of rapid fire, you're looking at killing 6+ of them, giving you the win.

Yes, Marines can destroy Harlequins with boltguns.

Even 4 harlies and troope master will wreck a marine squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
If you don't want bolters to be considered the basic gun, then there'd have to only be me codex that uses the boltgun (rather than the 9 that there are now).

If there is a standard gun in 9 armies how is this not the 'basic' gun? Why would it instead be a gun that's only available in one codex?

So are plasma guns and melta guns also standard? they are in the same codex that you are referencing.

Plasma and melta guns are both special weapons. It isn't difficult to grasp; they even have then listed in a 'special weapons' section...

Negative! I think that Marines can and should dual wield 2 bolters at once and be able to rapid fire 4 and max range 2. Like the GK arm mounted bolters. Frees up their hand to hold 2 more bolters! or 2 ccw! So each marine can potentially have 4 bolters! Current rule would only allow them to only shoot 1 gun. Is their a rule we can give marines to be able to shoot more than 1 gun?

Dakka banner will make them rapid fire 8 and max shot 4. But with 4 bokters that becomes 16 rapid fire shots and 8 max range.

Bam! DA becomes a power house and all marines get a much needed buff in killing power.

wait. Maybe we only give terminator the option to wield 4 storm bolters. Marines should only wield 2 bolters...

Marines would be awesome if they can quad wield bolt pistols.

I know it's in jest, but duel wielded bolters would be hilarious, sort of like a 40k action hero, but with bolters in stead of uzis.

No I am serious because i have like 10 marines with 2 bolters each because i did not know the rules when i first modeled them. The other 10 have 2 bolt pistols.

I have like 10 terminators i tried to convert into oblitz by putting 4 bolters on them.

Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

The thing is that if everything else is nerfed then Space Marines will be way OP since they're already too powerful compared to the majority of armies.

Like why play any other army if Space Marines will be far more durable AND have better damage output than you (in both shooting and assault)?

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

4 Harlies + Master:
Assuming Marine player fails, and doesn't at all while the Harlequins move into Assault range. And, because what the hell, Marines decline to overwatch

Troupers:
4x4x(1/9) = 1.7... dead Marines
Troop Master
5x(1/9) = 0.5... dead Marines

2.2 dead Marines.

Marine response:
2.8x1x(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 5.6/9 dead Harlequins.

So, 95 points of CC threat can wreck 70 points of generalists in CC if the generalists decide, what the hell, we don't shoot, let them charge us. Not seeing a problem. Those assumptions are stupid.

Let's remove those assumptions. Full shooting and Kisses.

Harlies move into range, then run forward with a lucky 6" run. At best, 13" away.

Marines move into rapid fire, and unload:
5x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 10x(8/27). 2.97 dead Harlequins.

Harlequins move up 6", and shoot pistols.
Non-AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 4.06/27 = ~0.15
AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 2.03/9 = 0.22

0.35 dead Marines.

Harlequins charge

Overwatch:
4.65x2x(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 4.65x(4/27) = 0.69

1.35 make it into melee. Master survives with sword
0.35x(8/9) = 0.31
1x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1) = 5/3, or 1.66 dead Marines.

3 Marines retaliate
3x1(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 6/9 wounds

And so the Troup Master, alone, survives the SM's attack. If he holds, he probably dies (loses FC and +1A). If he HnRs away, he takes three boltguns to the face (see above - painful).

So, to recap:
-130 points of Harlequins, kitted for killing Marines, lose handily to 70 points of Marines, assuming they get at least one round of shooting.

In melee, Harlequins hit well enough to hurt Marines, but won't wipe equal numbers in a single round, despite costing much, much more.

The real way to deal with Harlequins is to shoot them. The boltgun does that job, and does it well.

How are you seeing Harlies as not being countered by boltguns?

Really it shouldn't to too hard to balance everything, but it would require coordination, not the "some randomly selected book coming out every few months" thing GW does now. And probably a rules re-write.

SM/CSM: tough, armoured, middling damage output, middling assault output.
IG: weak, little armour, low assault output, low damage output, cheap, plentiful.
FW: weak, OK armour, high damage output, low assault output
DA, weak, OK armour, high damage output, high assault output, expensive
ect.

If necron guns have gauss and can auto wound and glance on 6s, then I think the guns str and ap should be nerfed.

If tau plasma rifles dont get hot then...wait they already lowered the str...Is the ap weak?

If DE guns have poison then their str should be even lowered.

If Eldar guns have special additional shots on a 6 then they really got to balance that out some how with a nerf.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

 Filch wrote:
If necron guns have gauss and can auto wound and glance on 6s, then I think the guns str and ap should be nerfed.

If tau plasma rifles dont get hot then...wait they already lowered the str...Is the ap weak?

If DE guns have poison then their str should be even lowered.

If Eldar guns have special additional shots on a 6 then they really got to balance that out some how with a nerf.

Huh? Plasma rifles have a trade off, they don't need a nerf. DE guns don't have a str char AFAIK (they just wound on a 4+). Eldar guns are shorer ranged, but have more shots at that range (2 shots at 18" instead of one at 24 and 2 at 12").

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

It's not "much less". It's only somewhat less. The drop from BS 4 to BS 3 is particularly misleading when model count goes up tremendously. S3 to S4 is worst against T5, which is more common now, I admit. But still, what we're paying for bolter-armed models is criminal compared to their offensive capability.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Double flamer suits is one of the most hilarious setups out there, so many templates...

one time a guy dropped 5 of them on a term squad i just DS - I lost every term - something like 55 saves required.

Bharring wrote:
4 Harlies + Master:
Assuming Marine player fails, and doesn't at all while the Harlequins move into Assault range. And, because what the hell, Marines decline to overwatch

Troupers:
4x4x(1/9) = 1.7... dead Marines
Troop Master
5x(1/9) = 0.5... dead Marines

2.2 dead Marines.

Marine response:
2.8x1x(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 5.6/9 dead Harlequins.

So, 95 points of CC threat can wreck 70 points of generalists in CC if the generalists decide, what the hell, we don't shoot, let them charge us. Not seeing a problem. Those assumptions are stupid.

Let's remove those assumptions. Full shooting and Kisses.

Harlies move into range, then run forward with a lucky 6" run. At best, 13" away.

Marines move into rapid fire, and unload:
5x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 10x(8/27). 2.97 dead Harlequins.

Harlequins move up 6", and shoot pistols.
Non-AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 4.06/27 = ~0.15
AP2: 2.03x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 2.03/9 = 0.22

0.35 dead Marines.

Harlequins charge

Overwatch:
4.65x2x(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 4.65x(4/27) = 0.69

1.35 make it into melee. Master survives with sword
0.35x(8/9) = 0.31
1x5x(2/3)(1/2)(1) = 5/3, or 1.66 dead Marines.

3 Marines retaliate
3x1(1/2)(2/3)(2/3) = 6/9 wounds

And so the Troup Master, alone, survives the SM's attack. If he holds, he probably dies (loses FC and +1A). If he HnRs away, he takes three boltguns to the face (see above - painful).

So, to recap:
-130 points of Harlequins, kitted for killing Marines, lose handily to 70 points of Marines, assuming they get at least one round of shooting.

In melee, Harlequins hit well enough to hurt Marines, but won't wipe equal numbers in a single round, despite costing much, much more.

The real way to deal with Harlequins is to shoot them. The boltgun does that job, and does it well.

How are you seeing Harlies as not being countered by boltguns?

Could you mathhammer the results of the same harlies fighting SM but with rending bolters?

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Can we just properly nerf everything else? Bolters are fine
edit: s4 ap5 is already the proper spot for a above average kill weapon.
Less we forget that flashlights are St3 ap nothing. which is the most average of average.

But S4 is not the improvement over S3 that it used to be. Especially when the S3 gun is at least twice as numerous and has the same range.

And still allows for armor saves, and has a much less chance at wounding and hitting.

It's not "much less". It's only somewhat less. The drop from BS 4 to BS 3 is particularly misleading when model count goes up tremendously. S3 to S4 is worst against T5, which is more common now, I admit. But still, what we're paying for bolter-armed models is criminal compared to their offensive capability.

Or other models ability to shrug off these shots is whats criminal.

Honestly now what the game really needs is to do away with cover saves, bring in BS modifiers for terrain, and chuck in a good armor save modifier.

"and chuck in a good armor save modifier."

These made loyalist marines unplayable in 2nd. I'll pass.

Yeah, Wraiths and TWC are really beefy, but there is practically nothing I care about in this game that can be engaged *effectively* with boltguns. Eldar look like they might be a good candidate, but the reality is that you face all AV 12, T8 or bikers that won't get within range.