So it seems like all the arguments have been made either for or against the bloodthirster (or flying demon prince) being summoned and either:

-being stuck in swooping mode, unable to change modes to gliding until the next turn, and then only able to assault the turn after that (so 2 turns after summoning)

or

-summoned in swooping mode, and then able to change modes to gliding the turn it is summoned and able to assault the turn after

We won't get into the rules specifics here, as that has been covered very thoroughly over the last week.

I am interested to know, HWYPI?

Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't a vote on RAW but just how you would play it (or let it play) in a game.

A slight oversimplification in the two options, but yeah would be good to gauge opinion, without the rules wrangling.

Ya there are like 4 or 5 other threads covering the points with 3 - 5 pages of posts each.

Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

Good call

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

I don't know if he meant that they wouldn't be able to if the bloodthirster could, but HIWPI I'd think they could if the bloodthirster could.

Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

If you're curious, there's a whole thread summarising the various rules..

I think the OP wanted to keep things simple.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

If you're curious, there's a whole thread summarising the various rules..

I think the OP wanted to keep things simple.

For reference, a summary of the rules arguments can be found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/644043.page
For a complete list you would have to read through all the threads yourself, but the nice gentleman who put together that list did a fair job I think

I didn't want it to be a vote on RAW, but just how you would play it (or let it play) in a game.

HIWPI, option 2. But not just for Tithe summoned things. I feel tithe summoned things are just as restricted as to what they can or cannot do as other units. I just don't feel it was ever the RAI that any FMC that arrived on turn 2 via deep strike would be unable to declare a charge on turn 3.

Honestly why they changed Flying Monstrous Creatures being able to charge the turn they change flight modes in the first place is beyond me. It was never really much of an issue anyways.

 Ignatius wrote:
Honestly why they changed Flying Monstrous Creatures being able to charge the turn they change flight modes in the first place is beyond me. It was never really much of an issue anyways.

Evidently they don't want people to be able to charge unless their opponent gets a full turn of full Bs shooting at you first. The change is in line with other changes from 6th. Unless you're BAs then go nuts DS and charge turn 1...

rigeld2 wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

Its nto because it is melee... it is becuase it is summoned trough blood tithe table... so yes Daemon price shoul be also able to charge next turn... No idea how Flerant is related. Im nor arguing about FMC changing modes after deep strike here but about FMC after summoning frough blood tithe table. FMC after regular deep strike is pretty clear imo.

But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

Its nto because it is melee... it is becuase it is summoned trough blood tithe table... so yes Daemon price shoul be also able to charge next turn... No idea how Flerant is related. Im nor arguing about FMCchanging modes after deep strike here but about FMC after summoning frough blood tithe table. FMC after regular deep strike is pretty clearimo. 

But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Just because you want something to be true and it is not OP doesn't mean that is GWs intent. It is not OP for tac marines to be relentless, they are GWs flagship unit and it makes no sense that they can't use their heavy weapon whilst trying to get in range with their special weapon and bolters. They are supposed to be the best all round troops in the game it makes no sense from a background or game point of view that they are worse in such a dramatic way than basic guardsmen veterans...

Also note the Prince is not forced to take wings so he can get into assault the turn after he arrives if you want him too. Which further points to the RaI. Also arriving swooping makes you immune to interceptor as your opponent dare not shoot you for fear of grounding you.

Do I wish you could change flight modes when you arrived or indeed just choose to declare gliding? Yes. Is that the rules? No. Is there ANYTHING in the Blood Tithe summoning rules that even hints that the DS rules are different for them? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the bias pole is bias. You've failed to mention in option 2 that the summoned FMC gets to also move 12" and indeed must move 12"-24" if he chooses to stay in swooping.

Voted.

HIWPI Blood Tithe summoning should not require 2 Turns of flight, they're not flying in from reserves, they're summoned and that does not seem to Stop the unwinged version from charging....

I voted HIWPI for anyone playing against me - that it can "change" modes and charge. Given the difficulty you can have in getting to 8 points in the first place, and given that unlike true reserves you have no way to manipulate (no +1, no reroll, etc) your chances of bringing it in earlier, it seems most fair.

I wouldnt ask for this if / when I get round to running one, I will just bring in daemon princes instead. The fact you can bring along non winged DPs via the Tithe has NOTHING to do with the charge rule; it is purely that wings are an option you are not forced to take. Thats it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The fact you can bring along non winged DPs via the Tithe has NOTHING to do with the charge rule; it is purely that wings are an option you are not forced to take. Thats it.

IMHO it make fluff sense, to be consistent (by Rules) across the entire Blood Tithe summoning results. If you want to go up into Swoop mode, it'd be an additional choice, not an enforced restriction.

I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

Fling, this is a simple HIWPI poll with two options, its not going into that argument at all.

(which is not how anyone would play it, even if a RAW argument can be constructed)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Fling, this is a simple HIWPI poll with two options, its not going into that argument at all.

(which is not how anyone would play it, even if a RAW argument can be constructed)

Well if HYWPI is they can change flight mode then HYWPI is that you can move units that arrive from BT summoning. They are the same thing. The pole seems to indicate many people would like to play it that their models can move after summoning.

Well if HYWPI is they can change flight mode then HYWPI is that you can move units that arrive from BT summoning. They are the same thing. The pole seems to indicate many people would like to play it that their models can move after summoning.

Fling, leave it. This isnt RAW anymore, we settled that, even if some don't agree. This is a houseruling matter. The poster is wondering how many people would houserule it to allow it to essentially arrive in gliding mode. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's HYWPI so, you can ignore parts of RAW, in favor of the houserule people want to use. This thread is for opinions, not official rules.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

 Yksak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

I'm talking about RAI.

 Yksak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

Well as he stated RaI is a precedent. RaW you can move when you arrive by DS, also normal reserves is yet another precedent. There is literally no reason to allow them to move other than Daemonkin players wanting our codex to be better than it is.

Fling you only ever mention one side of the argument and state your side as fact, I think that's a bit biased.

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work.

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: some see it as a RAW issue others as a RAI issue of why to allow the mode change

chaosmarauder wrote:

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work.

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.

This

FlingitNow wrote:

Well as he stated RaI is a precedent. RaW you can move when you arrive by DS, also normal reserves is yet another precedent. There is literally no reason to allow them to move other than Daemonkin players wanting our codex to be better than it is.

Im getting lost here.. anyway just fyi dont get fooled by my avatar im not Daemokin player.. just CSM

Thank you for just making a poll to to keep from blowing up a thread with nonsense.

I wish we had more people like you on dakka!

This is a great poll !

Any reference to other summoning is not applicable because the reason they cant change is because of timing. Summoning occurs AFTER the movement phase. As the movement phase is the only time you are able to change modes any precedent is not valid.

LADS leave it out. We have 3! seperate threads for RAW. You don't even need to discuss RAI here.

Regardless of any rules in the game, related or not. Would you house rule it to

allow it more effect in the game, even later on.
Or
Do you think it should stay as is, so it is a bigger deal to get it out on turn 2 through massive sacrificial plays? (that summoning a blood thirster should be rare enough, that its hard to find a right situation to do it)

Fling you only ever mention one side of the argument and state your side as fact, I think that's a bit biased. 

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work. 

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: some see it as a RAW issue others as a RAI issue of why to allow the mode change

Firstly RaW there is only one side to the argument. The side of the rules which are clearly a no. Despite what people want them to be.

RaI doesn't need to be explicitly stated to be clear. There is nothing different here to a FMC arriving from DS reservein terms of what it can do that turn and when it arrives. So there is literally no evidence that this is intended to work any differently. Not even a hint. The ONLY reason to work this differently is to change the rules to make our Codex better. This is exactly the same as me putting up a HYWPI pole for Tactical Marines to be relentless.

Clear rules frequently cause arguments by people that either don't understand the rules or people who desperately want the rules to mean something they don't. Just check the frequent threads on Allied Detachments being taken alongside parent codexes with 6th Ed Supplements. The rules are abundantly clear yet arguments persist. The rules here are clear there is literally nothing that even hints that Blood Tithe summoned FMCs should be under a different set of restrictions to FMCs that arrive from DS reserve. There is literally no new DS rules in the BT and nothing even hinting that you get to move.

Where is the raw support for your argument that you cant?

Other than the fact that the timing is different (which is the reason that they cant do it normally) you would be correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Yeah that's the simplest HIWPI (and has Some RAW support) and 'probably' certainly what the author intended.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yeah that's the simplest HIWPI (and has Some RAW support) and 'probably' certainly what the author intended.

You could see it RaW depending on exactly how the very horrible RaW is read:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

1) (Usually we are all reading) If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
2)If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives FROM Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Not a lot read 2), but it is just as "correct" as 1. If only the BrB defined exactly what "Deep Strike Reserve" meant, not just what is "sometimes" called such....

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Likewise, I can't see why I should believe should treat summoning units any differently to regular deep striking units.

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Likewise, I can't see why I should believe should treat summoning units any differently to regular deep striking units.

Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

That may be a fluffly reason, no doubt. It's weird to think of a guy getting turned into a giant rage monster that's flying, when the guy was standing on the ground. However, these are the rules we got, so we really should follow them else we start coming up with similar "fluffy" justifications. For example, why can't I have my Valkyrie start on the battlefield in Hover mode? It's not like it HAS to fly in from somewhere else right?

I know a lot of people will play it that it's gliding in so it can charge the next turn, but I really, REALLY would like them to say "now I know the rules don't support this, but will you allow it?" before just doing it. I'll honestly consider it then. But if they try to pull this as a surprise on me, then that's not playing the game by the rules.

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

We have no precedent for daemons showing up when they do, so trying to compare it to something else is pointless

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

Sorry what? What timing are you talking about?

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

Sorry it is not "horrible RaW" it is not Raw at all. It is also very clearly not RaI. At least be honest that this is rules you've made up to make your codex stronger. RaI is the authors intent, if he intended for this to work differently to normal deep strike then he would have said so, or he would have put some wording in to change how the BT interacts with the usual DS rules. He didn't therefore there is no difference clear as day RaI. No moving or changing flight mode you are swooping when you arrive both RaW and clear RaI. That might not be how you WANT it to work and your HYWPI might be just to give codexes made up rules to make them better. That is fine and if your group agrees go ahead but don't try to dress this up as RaW or RaI when you know full well that it is neither.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

Sorry what? What timing are you talking about?

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

Sorry it is not "horrible RaW" it is not Raw at all. It is also very clearly not RaI. At least be honest that this is rules you've made up to make your codex stronger. RaI is the authors intent, if he intended for this to work differently to normal deep strike then he would have said so, or he would have put some wording in to change how the BT interacts with the usual DS rules. He didn't therefore there is no difference clear as day RaI. No moving or changing flight mode you are swooping when you arrive both RaW and clear RaI. That might not be how you WANT it to work and your HYWPI might be just to give codexes made up rules to make them better. That is fine and if your group agrees go ahead but don't try to dress this up as RaW or RaI when you know full well that it is neither.

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

There really is no point arguing with Fling dude. He has shown nothing but overwhelming bias, and has derailed every attempt to discuss this rationally, by repeatedly asserting his opinion, and insulting everyone elses.

 Leth wrote:
Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

In that case, the movement rules only allow you to select a unit to begin moving if that unit is capable of movement at all. If this is the order, then you Start the Turn, Deep Strike in, and never select the FMC in the first place in order to change it's flight mode. You change flight mode at the start of the model's move (not the start of the phase), and if you can never select the model in order to move it, then you cannot change its flight mode.

If you now change your argument to be that it's "moving" by Deep Striking, then by the time it's on the battlefield, it's no longer "the start of the model's move" by the time it's on the battlefield. In this case, even assuming you could change it's flight mode before it arrives on the table, when it arrives it'll be set to Swooping.

Either way, it must be Swooping. There's no point inbetween that you are allowed to change modes. You can't choose to change to Gliding immediately after placing the model on the board but before Movement Phase, and when it comes to Movement Phase you can't select the model to move it, and therefore never get the opportunity to change flight modes. There's really no way around it. For 100% the same reason, a Deep Striking Flying Hive Tyrant can't change flight modes when it comes in, because it is 100% the same rules that govern how this event occurs. Flavourfully it may be remarkably different (hence why I get the confusion), but rules-wise it is entirely consistent.

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes. 

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

A few points, are you aware that all reserves arrive at the start of the turn? This is clearly laid out in the reserves rules.

Secondly Deepstriking is moving again the rules make this clear. Whilst you don't pick your flight move in the movement phase but when you move and you are stuck in that flight mode till the start of your next turn. Also to have a start of your move you must be able to move.

So you arrive at the start of the turn just like every other deepstriker. You start swooping just like every other deepstriker and are therefore stuck swooping until the start of your next turn. Finally you can't move so have no opportunity to change flight mode (which you wouldn't be allowed to do even if you could move which you can't).

This is the RaW fact of the rules. Due to nothing being different to normal DS this is also the clear RaI. However some people want their codex to get made up rules to make it better so want HYWPI to be that you can move when you arrive by DS.

harkequin wrote:

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

That would work, except there are a number of options a model can engage in during the movement phase that are not considered moving. So moving is not the loss of the phase, but the model can not engage in anything that counts as movement

 Leth wrote:

harkequin wrote:

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

That would work, except there are a number of options a model can engage in during the movement phase that are not considered moving. So moving is not the loss of the phase, but the model can not engage in anything that counts as movement

Glad you ignored all the other reasons your timing issue is false. Now do you have permission to change flight mode when not moving? As the FMC rules require start of your MOVE so if you're not moving you're not changing flight mode.

Re-reading it you are correct. I thought it said at the start of its movement phase. It does not.

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them.

So technically there is nothing preventing them from moving as normal.

I think the may change modes but not move was a sort of hybrid approach to try and satisfy both parties.

I voted for the change option although I don't think change is the right word.

I think that when a FMC arrives from Deep Strike Reserves it arrives swooping and it can't change it's flight mode regardless of whether it arrives at the start of the turn phase or in the movement phase.

Summoned FMC are specifically told to treat the creature like it is coming from Reserves, so they too are stuck in swooping mode (assuming I am remembering the quoted rules correctly).

BTBT are told to use Deep Strike rules, but do not say to treat them like they are coming from reserves.

The Deep Strike rules do not set the flight mode for the FMC. FMC rules set the mode to swooping for Deep Strike RESERVES, make it player choice if is coming from regular reserves, and gliding if it is the start of the game deployment.

As BlackTalos mentioned, the statement that Deep Strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves unfortunately does mean it is referred to that way every time which causes this issue in my eyes.

Fling treats the sometimes clause as an every time clause and is deciding it needs to be set to swooping (That is the way I read your posts anyway, correct me if I misinterpreted).

If you don't treat the sometimes as an every time you are left with no defined choice for the BTBT flight mode as it meets none of the requirements for the starting flight mode rules for a FMC.

This is were HYWPI comes in, treat it like reserves, it's swooping with no change. Treat it like deployment, it's gliding with no change. Or say it and say players choice with no change.

I think after reading through the threads I am sitting in the player's choice column.

 Yarium wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

That may be a fluffly reason, no doubt. It's weird to think of a guy getting turned into a giant rage monster that's flying, when the guy was standing on the ground. However, these are the rules we got, so we really should follow them else we start coming up with similar "fluffy" justifications. For example, why can't I have my Valkyrie start on the battlefield in Hover mode? It's not like it HAS to fly in from somewhere else right?

I know a lot of people will play it that it's gliding in so it can charge the next turn, but I really, REALLY would like them to say "now I know the rules don't support this, but will you allow it?" before just doing it. I'll honestly consider it then. But if they try to pull this as a surprise on me, then that's not playing the game by the rules.

Of course, prior agreement will always be needed. Plus it's not really a "new Surprise move" from Daemonkin.

More that, having spent quite some time now on YMDC analysing, arguing and checking RaW 25 times, it seems the very "basic" flight mode directive is flawed, at best.

Lusiphur wrote:
I voted for the change option although I don't think change is the right word.

I think that when a FMC arrives from Deep Strike Reserves it arrives swooping and it can't change it's flight mode regardless of whether it arrives at the start of the turn phase or in the movement phase.

Summoned FMC are specifically told to treat the creature like it is coming from Reserves, so they too are stuck in swooping mode (assuming I am remembering the quoted rules correctly).

BTBT are told to use Deep Strike rules, but do not say to treat them like they are coming from reserves.

The Deep Strike rules do not set the flight mode for the FMC. FMC rules set the mode to swooping for Deep Strike RESERVES, make it player choice if is coming from regular reserves, and gliding if it is the start of the game deployment.

As BlackTalos mentioned, the statement that Deep Strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves unfortunately does mean it is referred to that way every time which causes this issue in my eyes.

Fling treats the sometimes clause as an every time clause and is deciding it needs to be set to swooping (That is the way I read your posts anyway, correct me if I misinterpreted).

If you don't treat the sometimes as an every time you are left with no defined choice for the BTBT flight mode as it meets none of the requirements for the starting flight mode rules for a FMC.

This is were HYWPI comes in, treat it like reserves, it's swooping with no change. Treat it like deployment, it's gliding with no change. Or say it and say players choice with no change.

I think after reading through the threads I am sitting in the player's choice column.

Please note, though, that this is only if you wilfully ignore the word "VIA" in that rule, and its definition in the English language.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Which is why i'm more than happy calling it HIWPI but probably not RaW in such an argument

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them. 

Only if you believe that clause doesn't apply to anyone as normal reserves also arrive at the start of the turn.

 FlingitNow wrote:

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them. 

Only if you believe that clause doesn't apply to anyone as normal reserves also arrive at the start of the turn.

False logic is false, how a rule affects a totally different situation has no effect on the rule at hand.


And reserves move on in the movement phase- Heyooo did I say that again? Well its true and constantly misinterpreting one line in a section unrelated to sequencing won't change that.

anyway I'm being silly this is a HIWPI thread, and not the place for rules wrangling.

1) I did not think we were discussing the RULES in this thread, but rather how we would play it.

2) If any one is trying to get technical with the deep strike rules you need to remember a few key facts. First, units that deep strike need to begin the game in reserves. Second, conjured units a treated as if they began the game in reserves. Third, tithe units either need to be treated like the began the game in reserves or that cannot deep strike. Conclusion, there should be no determinable difference between a tithe summoned unit and a conjured unit.

3) The FMC flight mode rules are broken. They do not work as written when held up to scrutiny.

4) I do not believe it was the intent of writers to prevent a deep striking FMC from being able to charge the turn after it arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
And reserves move on in the movement phase

No they don't.

I would play it allowing any FMC To change its flight mode in the turn it arrives not just BT's as I don't see why they should get any unique special treatment. I don't believe the authors intended to make deep striking fmc's next to bloody useless.
This is the house rule implemented in my local GW store. Everyone Who Ive played with so far has found this pretty reasonable. Of course if someone wanted to play RAW I would respect that, but I'd probably also insist we also play RAW regarding characters being slain or slaying an enemy character in a challenge effectively doubling the BT points each of my units is worth.

Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

I think this is one of the strongest examples that your side of the argument could give. Well done!

However, I don't think it matters. Where they arrive from doesn't matter. If your Necrons had a FMC that could be teleported off the board and back on using Deep Strike rules, then that FMC would be set as Swooping, regardless of whether it was Gliding or Swooping when you went to teleport it. Then, during the movement phase, you wouldn't be able to select it to even consider moving with it, and so couldn't change your flight mode either.

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

I always thought you got the 2+ everytime you DS'd pretty certain this is clear in the rules. Though my codex is in my desk at work, I am a necron player but have stopped using Deathmarks now as they got rid of Despairteks so I can't check and don't know it as fact.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I always thought you got the 2+ everytime you DS'd pretty certain this is clear in the rules. Though my codex is in my desk at work, I am a necron player but have stopped using Deathmarks now as they got rid of Despairteks so I can't check and don't know it as fact.

Nope! I think the 5e codex was worded that way. But 7e codex explicitly states Deep Strike Reserves. I just got off of work and checked the codex and it is most certainly DSR.

But that would still trigger for Veil/ghostwalk mantle.

As much as I'd like to debate this further, I don't think this is the place to do so, so as to not derail this thread any further.

I would be happy to talk about this in another thread or via PM. I say this, as I understand your stance, but I disagree on your conclusion.

But that would still trigger for Veil/ghostwalk mantle.

Yeah i initially thought the other way, but after intensly scrutinising the deepstrike rules(for some *other* thread), I am aware that RAW actually favors it.

However as a necron player, no way i'm playing it like that for my D-marks. This is not RAW, not even RAI. I just don't feel right doing it, it's sort of counter intuitive, and i dont want to have to point out the technicality of Deep strike reserves & deepstrike being the same.

And most of all, and I cant stress this enough, it's not needed, they come in , delete something, and then are rapid fire snipers. + who's wasting their veil/mantle with them anyway :p

All this being said, If an opponenet brought it up, or insisted RAW, I would have no issue, thems the rules.

My two cents:

I believe in rules representing a fluffy action. Deep Striking as a rule is things just warping or dropping into the battlefield. The reason FMCs "deep strike" as always being in swooping mode, to me, is because it's representing them soaring super high in the sky and then dropping into the battle in a rapid flying swooping action.

The issue with the Bloodthirster being summoned in is though while it's a deep strike, it's representing a different kind of being brought onto the battlefield. Non-flying units are just simply there, poof, instant battle ready.

So I think a summoned creature, while technically deepstriking in, should be allowed to choose which flight mode it's in. I imagine the Bloodthirster being summoned in from The Warp was not mid-flight 100% of the time he appears in realspace.

That said, a purchased army-list Bloodthirster deep striking in would follow the usual rules of deep striking because I mean you can plan for that ahead of time.

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

Of course, counter to what might have been posted, i always insist that it is know that:

- Being in Deep Strike Reserves, and coming onto the board from Deep Strike Reserves
1) Does not necessarily mean the Unit is arriving by Deep Strike (Drop Pod passengers).
2) Is not the only way to arrive by Deep Strike.

So you are indeed correct, but as it has been said, i also do not think that it make a difference for the current debate / Poll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:
, and i dont want to have to point out the technicality of Deep strike reserves & deepstrike being the same.

Just as i can, but will not as it would count as derailing the thread, explain and support how "Deep Strike Reserves", "Deep Striking", and "by Deep Strike" are 3 unique Terms that apply at different times to different Units, and may be completely separate

Just as i can, but will not as it would count as derailing the thread

Think that ship may have sailed mate, but i get what you're saying.

Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

 Yksak wrote:
Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

Cool so you get to move in the movement phase to by that rather nonsensical FAQ. Indeed you are forced to move 12" if you pick swooping. It also completely ignores all the wording for all relevant rules and applies to normal FMC arriving by DS reserve the way it is worded.

Mate i dont know what FAQ you are reading... the one i posted says you can change flight mode.. not that you are forced to move 12" or anything else... just change modes thats it. It is obviously RAI so just go with it.

In order to change flight mode you have to move. So the FAQ allowing one, automatically allows the other.

Or it doesnt.. try to imagine it... its very hard i know but just try it

He's right, It's not the start of the movement phase, It's the start of your move.

So if you change modes, you have to start (and therefore be allowed to make) a move.

And to be fair, houserules don't mean anything, It used to be ruled at a large tournament you couldnt re-embark on a nightscythe, despite it being explicitly allowed in the codex.
House rules are just that, house rules.

 Yksak wrote:
Or it doesnt.. try to imagine it... its very hard i know but just try it

That FAQ very explicitly allows you to move. If you can change flight mode you can move, check the changing flight mode rules. Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

to me it means only one thing... i can play it at my FLGS, at my home and at any tournament the way i agree with and i think is right thats all i care about

It is going to be a weird tournament where everyone can move the turn they Deepstrike.

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

 FlingitNow wrote:


Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure It clearly does im out

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Awesome, so it allows you movement after you arrive from deepstrike. Blood tithe is done at the start of the turn, the same time as reserves. So they follow the same restrictions.

Basically the issue comes from, Allowing BT to change modes -> means allowing it to move -> means allowing other deepstrikers to move.

The timing is the same, for most intents and purposes, reserved FMCs are the same as BTs.

 Yksak wrote:
"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

 FlingitNow wrote:


Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure It clearly does im out

Yes it clearly does as it states that units that arrive at the start of the turn (in other words all reserves) get to change flight mode (in other words move).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

 FlingitNow wrote:


Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure It clearly does im out

Yes it clearly does as it states that units that arrive at the start of the turn (in other words all reserves) get to change flight mode (in other words move).

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

I do like how this entire discussion is completely ignoring Tennet #2

"bigger tournaments" are know to invent rules opposite of what the RaW would suggest. For me, if anything, this new (Unofficial) FaQ proves that the real RaW is actually the "other option"...

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

It doesn't need to it says stuff that arrives at the start of the turn gets to move. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Is English your second language?

That FAQ means that all reserves get to move the turn they arrive and indeed swooping FMCs must move at least 12" after DSing.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

It doesn't need to it says stuff that arrives at the start of the turn gets to move. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Is English your second language?

That FAQ means that all reserves get to move the turn they arrive and indeed swooping FMCs must move at least 12" after DSing.

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

"Is English your second language?" I loved that, coming from yourself.

I know this isn't RAW or even implied in the text, but I am 90% sure that the summoned Bloodthirster is supposed to show up on the ground.

I say this because the rules for flying critters are designed to represent something flying onto the battlefield. Which a summoned Bloodthirster is not doing. After all, isn't he literally bursting out of someone's body?

HIWPI is with him appearing on the ground.

He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Yeah they didn't think this through.

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

Until someone points out that there FAQ results in absolute reserves silliness with all units allowed to move the turn the arrive from DS reserve as per the FAQ.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

Until someone points out that there FAQ results in absolute reserves silliness with all units allowed to move the turn the arrive from DS reserve as per the FAQ.

Sigh. It just doesn't say that though. And you're still confusing an FAQ with an actual rule or rules errata. Nevermind.

 Yksak wrote:
Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

That faq by the rules also very well may result in the bloodthirster being removed from play the turn you summon it.

By the RAW deep striking models cannot move the turn they deepstrike.

if you are picking a flight mode, you are doing something you do during movement.

If you move the Bloodthirster when you deepstrike you have broken the rules for deepstrike, which that faq does not cover or give an exception to.

If you do not move when you are required to move a certain distance, I am fairly certain you are removed as a casualty much as if you are required to move a distance but cannot place the model because there is another model there- crash and burn (locked velocity flyer having to end move ontop of a model).

being locked in swooping is because they moved onto the battlefield from DS in that mode. If you are changing modes during the same movement phase and not moving the minimum distance without the faq resolving that, for other things that are required to move a certain distance and cannot they are usually removed from play as casualties.

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?

No such rules exist. It can be placed or killed or ongoing reserves on the quite likely mishap, given it has to be within 6" of the model you picked...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?

No such rules exist. It can be placed or killed or ongoing reserves on the quite likely mishap, given it has to be within 6" of the model you picked...

I see, thanks.

There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the initial placement, of course. So, by "literally" you mean "almost no difference"

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

Bless different and the same are the interchangeable . Everything arrives before the start of the movement phase hence why the FAQ applies to everything

Please read the rule book where this is clearly laid out, or the 15 page thread where this was proven to you countless times...

Nope. :-D Movement happens in the motement phase unless otherwise specified.

Find a rule, applicable to every turn, that specifies reserve movement doesn't happen in the movement phase. Then I will believe you.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Nope. :-D Movement happens in the motement phase unless otherwise specified.

Find a rule, applicable to every turn, that specifies reserve movement doesn't happen in the movement phase. Then I will believe you.

Charging, thrust moves, deep strike, reserves, running...

All specify otherwise yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except deep strike and reserves , cheeky.

Those specify they happen at the start of the turn, so before movement phase. Again read your rulebook it is all there.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

Bless different and the same are the interchangeable . Everything arrives before the start of the movement phase hence why the FAQ applies to everything

Please read the rule book where this is clearly laid out, or the 15 page thread where this was proven to you countless times...

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate.

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

Seriously the amount of time the BT argument has jumped ship is ridiculous. Read the 15 page thread, and count how many times a BT argument is made, then refuted, then changed.

Reserves happen at the start of the turn, for ongoing reserves and turn 4, this is BULLETPROOF , for the preceding 3 turns we aren't told otherwise, so it's safe to assume it applies to them too.

Bear in mind, this whole reserves argument was based off of "arrive this turn" so they don't tell you they arrive at the start. Then you may bring them on in the assault phase if you want, we know this is wrong, if we follow the quote, "arrives automatically at the start of your fourth turn" we get an answer.
For reserves :
Option A. It arrives during the turn, not even just in the movement phase (woo no interceptor)

Option B. It arrives at the start, because Turn 4 is no different to turn 1/2/3.

They are the 2 options you can argue, you can't pick and choose bits of them.

"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

What if it was not bullet, but Bolter Shells?

"Moving on from reserves" may or may not be at the start of the movement phase.

"Arriving from reserved" is quite defined. Normal DS BTs arrive before the start of movement.

Is that where we're all at?

harkequin wrote:

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

A statement which I could make about the other side of the argument. Which would equally achieve nothing. Hence the HIWPI poll and the recent FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

harkequin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

Sigh.

You said that it was safe to assume that, because turn 4 reserves arrived at point X, that turn 1 - 3 reserves also turn up at point X

That is an assumption. ASsumptions cannot be bullet proof.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

A statement which I could make about the other side of the argument. Which would equally achieve nothing. Hence the HIWPI poll and the recent FAQ.

1. Yes you could, but like i said, one side is constantly changing arguments. whenever one gets refuted another just appears.
2. the FAQ means literally nothing, It's a house rule nothing more. You don't see every other person posting their local FAQs. It's a FMC, It arrives by deepstrike, for most people it doesn't even have to be clarified. In the other thread there were so many arguments but it boils down to this.
3. The HIWPI poll is a houserule, basically saying "who agrees it's a stupid rule, and for the sake of fairplay/forging the narrative, it should be allowed?"

FMCs Must move to change flight modes. (at the start of your move ... Can't start something you never do)
Things may not move in the movement phase they arrive by deep strike.
Argument that BT arrives pre-movement phase, so it doesn't count.
Reserves also arrive pre-movement phase (Concrete for T4, we are NOWHERE led to believe its different for T1/2/3)
Therefore BT, and all reserves may move the turn they arrive, as they did not arrive in the movement phase.

So basically either the BT gets to switch, and all reserves can move after arriving on to the board (They are axiomatic , you can't argue one without the other)
or
The BT waits a turn to switch, the game doesn't have to be entirely changed.

Or, since you never Declare your flight mode, you simply "count as", you can Declare during the shooting phase, before you Run, which is a Move.

Done.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

Sigh.

You said that it was safe to assume that, because turn 4 reserves arrived at point X, that turn 1 - 3 reserves also turn up at point X

That is an assumption. ASsumptions cannot be bullet proof.

My bad, I structured it wrong. I meant to say "reserves arrive at the start of turn (for turn 4 this is bulletproof) .
Again, my bad, I should have structured it more clearly,

Self edit. Need to leave YMDC alone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, since you never Declare your flight mode, you simply "count as", you can Declare during the shooting phase, before you Run, which is a Move.

Done.

When you declare a flight mode, you are locked in until the start of your next turn. You arrive counting as swooping (for all intents and purposes), you are not given permission to change. There is also no precedent to allow it.

Yes, when y ou Declare a flight mode

When you deepstrike, you "counts as". There is NO declaration made

If you disagree, please state the rule showing that this "counts as" is a declaration.

Oh, and as for no precedent - its a unique rule. Precedent is impossible.

It's not a unique rule .... Are you seriously suggesting that all FMC's summoned via summoning may do this.
They arrive in the psychic phase, before the shooting(running) phase. It also applies to ALL FMCs that arrive via deepstrike. The BT is not as unique as people try to make it out to be. It's a free BT, that's all.

As a note, i would like to point out that a new argument spontaneously appeared again ...
the last one was "it arrives pre-movement" , now its "change it in the shooting phase"

Rule "...when a flying monstrous creature arrives you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Contextually, It means of the 2 options presented, it counts as one of them. I can see your argument though.

Just remember, If it applies to BT's It applies to ALL FMCs, including summoned ones. That is a discussion for another thread because it means almost everyone has been playing FMCs wrong.

Declaring a flight mode is unique. Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

It isn't a new argument, just new to this thread. It's also entirely supportable by rules, and frankly unimportant to this thread.

Show me the rule where it states that psychic summoning does not take place in the psychic phase.

Show me the rule that states a BT may change flight modes in the shooting phase, but not a deepstriking hive tyrant.

Show me where it says that the bloodthirster is unique, that it is the only FMC that arrives before the shooting phase.

The problem here is that if it applies to the BT, It applies to all FMCs. The BT is not a unique case.
The shooting phase switch would also allow psychicly summoned FMCs to switch as well.

You can't argue one without the other.

. Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

I'm going to need some evidence that psychic summoning does not happen in the psychic phase *and* in fact, somehow happens after the shooting phase, otherwise it still stands.

No
No
No
No

Because I don't need to

My point on unique was the declaration requirement for fmc. As in, that's unique.

Context is king, I was talking about tithe summoning

I have no problem with my totally correct rule reading meaning people are playing fmc wrong. I care little for others play, as it doesn't affect me.

It's not a unique rule .... Are you seriously suggesting that all FMC's summoned via summoning may do this.
They arrive in the psychic phase,

Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

You made the assertion that summoning did not happen in the psychic phase, when I addressed psychic summoning, you missed the context there.

My point still stands. Feel free to argue that all FMCs may change in the shooting phase. Don't pretend that the BT is unique. It is the same as any other FMC when you look at it.

Like i said, that is a different thread. If you want to point out that people have been playing it wrong, i have no issue.
This thread had people arguing that the BT is unique.

All my points were showing that any ruling you apply to the bloodthirster applies to other FMCs. You can't pick and choose which parts of the rules to use (unless you are house ruling).

So basically, If you want to argue that the BT is unique compared to all other FMCs, this is the thread for you. If you want to argue that we have all been playing FMCs wrong, then it would be better suited to another appropriate thread.

I was not arguing such. My only reference to unique was in relation to the declaration requirement. One that is, factually, not met by the ds counts as clause.

Yes, which affects all FMCs.
Like I said, another issue for another thread.
This thread is about the BT being unique, that it can change flight modes, while other FMCs can't.

No. This thread isn't saying the bt is unique. The op never constrained it to that

It is purely a hywpi thread on bts. Nothing more.

Right. Exactly.
It isn't a hywpi on if FMCs can do it. It's specific to the BT.

Indeed. Hence saying this works for bt is saying nothing about other FMCs. People have been playing fmc incorrectly.

Yes. I get what you are saying.

I'm just pointing out that the spirit of the BT threads (multiple) is that the BT may choose, but not other FMCs. Which is why i feel that this thread isn't the place to discuss general ruling issues.

If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

All reserves arrive prior to movement. They are functionally the same, they arrive via DS at the start of the turn. If you want to houserule it so that BTs are special go ahead, just don't pretend it's RAW.

Also, that FAQ is still useless, It's not an FAQ it's a houserule. I could post my locals "FAQ" on it, and have as much authority.

It is a FAQ, for that tournament. It just isnt a GW FAQ.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

All reserves arrive prior to movement. They are functionally the same, they arrive via DS at the start of the turn. If you want to houserule it so that BTs are special go ahead, just don't pretend it's RAW

Sorry but that just hasn't been proven. The RAW discussion was done to death in the other thread though. This is an HIWPI thread and the point of interest is that the recent tournament FAQ is clarifying the blood tithe rules as allowing a change in flight mode during the turn a blood tithe summons arrives which many also agree is in accordance with the RAW.

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a FAQ, for that tournament. It just isnt a GW FAQ.

And my local FAQd it the opposite. It really has no bearing on the discussion other than "These people agree with me"

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

Harlequin - but this is a HWYPI thread. So it is totally on topic and relevant. Same as your revelation that your lcoal (unknown size, composition of people au fait with all rules, etc) ruled the opposite way. Was it in a published FAQ, or just a local houserule that is "known" about through word of mouth? Im genuinely interested in how organised some FLGS are getting with this.

You are not led anywher in believing turns 1 - 3 are the same or different to turn 4. The rules are silent on this. Hence, pointing out - repeatedly - your assumption that it must be the same.

Sadly, i voted for being allowed to change fling modes, but after reading TOO MANY treads on the topic, I think my stance has moved to a third option:

i dont play a HUGE amount of games, and when i do, its most with my ork/tau/necron buddy. If i was facing more DSing FMCs, Id be more nailed down to an answer, but as I am the daemon player (and i dont currently have much khorne in my army), I will not be expanding my collection to include a BT (yet). It makes me sad cuz i play this game because of the awesome models, but the two go hand in hand: Cool models+ Cool games = fun time for sasquatch

I know this wont add much weight to either side of the argument, but id like to add my HIWPI.... I just wont until they get their sh*t together

harkequin wrote:

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

So in other words, no, you can't prove it. You're correct in that this has all been discussed in the RAW thread but nothing was "dealt with" conclusively. Hence the need for FAQs.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

So in other words, no, you can't prove it. You're correct in that this has all been discussed in the RAW thread but nothing was "dealt with" conclusively. Hence the need for FAQs.

Seriously? On Reserves from the BRB (Direct quote) " If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
Unless you are arguing that every other single turn in the game is different for reserves, this should settle it.

Bear in mind the argument for reserves in the movement phase consists of the quote "If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn" which supports arriving in the movement phase as much as it supports arriving in the shooting phase (after interceptor)


We are given the timing for reserves, and no indication that it is any different for the other turns. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. That's my proof right there, can you dispute it?

You are applying a rule which is talking about how you make reserve rolls, which is quite obviously only applicable to turn 4, to every turn. You have no permission to do this. Your argument is flawed.

The established rule of movement happens in the movement phase would still apply. And applies to every turn. It is also consistent with how we are told to deep strike.

You are wrong on this one.

Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Is Turn 4 different to Turns 1/2/3 what is your basis for this.

The point is there is a precedence set, and unless you are allowing me to deep strike after interceptor because they "arrive that turn" , then your argument doesn't hold.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You are applying a rule which is talking about how you make reserve rolls, which is quite obviously only applicable to turn 4, to every turn. You have no permission to do this. Your argument is flawed.

The established rule of movement happens in the movement phase would still apply. And applies to every turn. It is also consistent with how we are told to deep strike.

You are wrong on this one.

The rulebook is not wrong on this. Despite your claims the rulebook is correct. The rulebook claims reserves arrive at the start of the turn. All relevant rules talk about arrival (not deployment which also happens at the start of the turn).

The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

That is a restriction on an action not a statement of when that action occurs the reserves rules tell us this. Please read the relevant rules before posting you're better than this Nos.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

Pretty much. People like to pretend the BT is special and exempt to it, the point being made here is whatever way you rule it, the BT isn't unique. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn too. Either all FMCs can change after deepstrike or none can. No playing favorites.

Either you believe there is some mistake with the above rule, and so apply it to everything evenly, or play it how it is technically written where it has literally no effect on the game. I'm not telling you which way to play it, but they are the options.

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Similar to "in the first turn this unit assaults, they have AP3" does not mean they assault the first turn.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Similar to "in the first turn this unit assaults, they have AP3" does not mean they assault the first turn.

I agree. This restriction only makes logical sense if reserves movement happens in the movement phase however. Which we can assume it does, as it is defined as movement, we know movement happens in the movment phase, and there is no specific rule (applicable to every turn) saying otherwise.

Not all movement happens in the movement phase.
Charging , running , turbo booting, assault moves etc.

Saying that because it is movement it happens in the movement phase doesn't help.

The only time we are told reserves arrive is in the reserves section. It tells us they arrive this turn, It also tells us that (at least for T4 and ongoing reserves) they arrive at the start of the turn. This sets a precedent for when reserves arrive.

Unless you are contesting that as long as reserves arrive during the turn, they are legal, which opens up a huge can of worms.

So the options are to argue that either reserves are unique for T4 and ongoing(this is not even implied anywhere). Or they are the same. Which side do you choose, and how do you back it up?

We are told reserves arrive after rolling reserves and before moving other units, so there is no can of worms.
My interpretation is consistent with all rules and sane interpretation of a section discussing reserve rolls. I am happy with this.

We are also told they arrive at the start of the turn. Considering that "start of turn" and "start of phase" , Both happen after rolling but before, moving other units, and one of them is mentioned.
My interpretation is consistent with as many rules as yours and a sane interpretation of discussing reserves.

Is turn 4 used contextually? telling you when reserves arrive.

Or are you asserting that turn 4 is unique in the regard that it's reserves arrive at the start of the turn, and if so, can you back this up as unique?

Turn 4 is used contextually. The rule is staying there is no requirement to roll for reserves at the start of turn 4. They arrive automatically- without rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not immediately, or always , but automatically, at the start of turn 4, when you would otherwise be making a reserve roll

Right so you agree that they arrive automatically at the start of turn 4. Therefore they do not arrive in the movement phase.

They arrive automatically- without rolling.

at the start of your turn. Not in the movement phase.

Where is your backup that this is an exception to the rest of the turns, and not a precedent?

Either Turn 4 is unique or it isn't. which do you believe?

They arrive automatically. This is not when they arrive, but the precondition for their arrival, which is passing the reserve roll. This is done at the start of the turn.

I will not dispute the poor wording. But there is no rule to suggest that arrival happens at the start of every turn. Whilst there is a rule that says movement happens in the movement phase. And reserve moves are normal movement, with the exception of deep strike, which is also stated to occur in the movement phase.

Are you seriously trying to argue that

Arrives automatically at the start of the turn != Arrives automatically at the start of the turn ?

It arrives(what it does)
automatically (how it does it)
at the start of the turn (when it does it)

There is no way you can refute this.

Just as seriously as you are applying a rule stating turn 4 to every other turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the start of which turn do Reserves arrive automatically?

I have said it asked repeatedly for your opinion on if it is unique to turn 4, and what you would use to back it up. I'm seriously asking so we can put this to rest.
I have said it makes sense as a precedent, It gives us specific information that we did not have up until that point. And we are not led to believe it is any sort of exception.

And just to clarify, you are in fact arguing that
Something that arrives automatically at the start of the turn, does not in fact, arrive at the start of the turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

At the start of which turn do Reserves arrive automatically?

the fourth. they arrive automatically at the start of the fourth.

Unless your argument is that there is a difference between arrival and deployment, that the arrival is just the roll?

I am reading 'arrives automatically' as 'arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll'

So in total 'arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll at the start of turn 4' .
This is consistent with the rest of the paragraph, which is telling us how to make reserve rolls.

arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll at the start of turn 4'

So it still arrives at the start of turn 4 then.

It arrives, does it without a roll, and does it at the start of the turn.

The reserve roll would be at the start of turn. This is consistent. We are not told anywhere that reserves move on at the start of the turn.

If you can't agree that,

Something that arrives automatically at the start of the turn, arrives at the start of the turn, and does it automatically.

There is no point continuing this. It's obviously a discussion that is going to get nowhere because there is some fundamental problem with communication here.
I'll probably be back when it gets resurrected in a month though -.-

Just as something which happens on turn four, does not also happen on turns 2,3,5,6& 7

I think we understand each other fully yes.
Haha, I hope I am not. This takes far too much time, debating semantics of rules for no positive effect.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

You are misinterpreting my point. Read it again. I said the same as you. "the movement phase in which it arrives". If you read the rest of the comment It explains this.

If your group has decided that it can change that's fine, nothing wrong with houserules. This poll has shown that a significant number of people would play that way to suit you, because the rule is stupid, not because the rules permit it. It's the nature of HIWPI and houserules.

A tournament FAQ has literally no value here. There are hundereds of tourneys all over the world with conflicting houserules/faqs. It should never have been brought up. The only purpose it served was "this guy agrees with me" which was already a part of the poll.

I'm out. This is not going anywhere , It's like the damn 3 spyder argument.

TLDR-

"I disilike that my outflanking units cannot assault the turn they arrive, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise. It makes sense that my elite assault units would not stand there but would assault. So now they may"

is same as:

"I dislike that my deep striking FMC cannot assault the turn it arrives, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise. It makes sense that my uber assault FMC would not float there but instead would assault. So now they may"

although I wish for both, neither have any rules support and in fact are specifically told that they do not work that way in the rules.

blaktoof wrote:

"I dislike that my deep striking FMC cannot assault the turn it arrives, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise.

The argument is, that there is not a specific applicable rule. But I forgive you for not reading, it has got rather long.

I read the first 4 pages, and its just repeating of certain people trying to say that arriving by deepstrike for the blood tithe happens at some other time than normally arriving at deepstrike without any rules support to try and bypass the rules that specifically tell you what to do when a FMC arrives from deepstrike and what happens when you can change flight mode the following turn. Skimming the pages after page 4 are the same thing.

You know what, I didn't even read the first four pages of this one, so you're probably right. TLDR indeed. There is a relevant rules summary on YMDC if you search.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You know what, I didn't even read the first four pages of this one, so you're probably right. TLDR indeed. There is a relevant rules summary on YMDC if you search.

Well he provided a full rules summary for the argument for being able to change flight mode. Whilst is argument against can be summarised by "the rules say you can't"...

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

You are misinterpreting my point. Read it again. I said the same as you. "the movement phase in which it arrives". If you read the rest of the comment It explains this.

I did read it. You deliberately omitted some key words in an attempt to change its meaning.

harkequin wrote:
If your group has decided that it can change that's fine, nothing wrong with houserules.

Except it's not a houserule if HIWPI is also following the RAW. As it is in this case.

harkequin wrote:
This poll has shown that a significant number of people would play that way to suit you, because the rule is stupid, not because the rules permit it.

You don't think they would play that way because they believe the rules do permit it? It seems like the most obvious reason.

harkequin wrote:
A tournament FAQ has literally no value here. There are hundereds of tourneys all over the world with conflicting houserules/faqs. It should never have been brought up. The only purpose it served was "this guy agrees with me" which was already a part of the poll.

The logical extension of this is that the entire YMDC forum has no value. Ultimately the only opinions that matter in any particular game regarding rules are those of the players involved, or those of the TO in a tournament setting. But since you're actively posting in YMDC you must accept that other peoples opinions have some relevance.

harkequin wrote:
I'm out. This is not going anywhere

Promise? That's what you intimated in your last post.

You don't think they would play that way because they believe the rules do permit it? It seems like the most obvious reason.

Well that is only a reason if the rules allow it which they clearly don't as you well know. The only reasons people would play it as the BT summoned models being able to change flight mode is that they want to change the rules or they haven't bothered to read the rules and someone has told them the wrong rules.

So... This seems to have covered everything relevant by this point. Moving on.