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nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Yeah they didn't think this through.

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

Until someone points out that there FAQ results in absolute reserves silliness with all units allowed to move the turn the arrive from DS reserve as per the FAQ.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

Hmm no I didn't claim both at all. I didn't claim either tbh. You're making things up again. If you want to discuss the RAW technicalities you should ressurect that 15+ page thread that appeared shortly after the codex release.

This thread was started (partly due to the mess that the aforementioned thread descended into) to gauge an HIWPI perspective. The current issue at hand is the release of an FAQ that (for its intended purpose) allows a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster to charge in the turn following the one in which it arrives. You don't like that ruling but have to accept it. You can play however you like but as I said earlier if this is the first unofficial FAQ it sets an interesting precedent.

Until someone points out that there FAQ results in absolute reserves silliness with all units allowed to move the turn the arrive from DS reserve as per the FAQ.

Sigh. It just doesn't say that though. And you're still confusing an FAQ with an actual rule or rules errata. Nevermind.

 Yksak wrote:
Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

That faq by the rules also very well may result in the bloodthirster being removed from play the turn you summon it.

By the RAW deep striking models cannot move the turn they deepstrike.

if you are picking a flight mode, you are doing something you do during movement.

If you move the Bloodthirster when you deepstrike you have broken the rules for deepstrike, which that faq does not cover or give an exception to.

If you do not move when you are required to move a certain distance, I am fairly certain you are removed as a casualty much as if you are required to move a distance but cannot place the model because there is another model there- crash and burn (locked velocity flyer having to end move ontop of a model).

being locked in swooping is because they moved onto the battlefield from DS in that mode. If you are changing modes during the same movement phase and not moving the minimum distance without the faq resolving that, for other things that are required to move a certain distance and cannot they are usually removed from play as casualties.

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?

No such rules exist. It can be placed or killed or ongoing reserves on the quite likely mishap, given it has to be within 6" of the model you picked...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?

No such rules exist. It can be placed or killed or ongoing reserves on the quite likely mishap, given it has to be within 6" of the model you picked...

I see, thanks.

There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the initial placement, of course. So, by "literally" you mean "almost no difference"

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

Bless different and the same are the interchangeable . Everything arrives before the start of the movement phase hence why the FAQ applies to everything

Please read the rule book where this is clearly laid out, or the 15 page thread where this was proven to you countless times...

Nope. :-D Movement happens in the motement phase unless otherwise specified.

Find a rule, applicable to every turn, that specifies reserve movement doesn't happen in the movement phase. Then I will believe you.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Nope. :-D Movement happens in the motement phase unless otherwise specified.

Find a rule, applicable to every turn, that specifies reserve movement doesn't happen in the movement phase. Then I will believe you.

Charging, thrust moves, deep strike, reserves, running...

All specify otherwise yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except deep strike and reserves , cheeky.

Those specify they happen at the start of the turn, so before movement phase. Again read your rulebook it is all there.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
There is literally no difference between a Blood Tithe summoned FMCs and one arriving from normal DS.

Apart from the fact that the blood tithe summons arrive before the start of movement, hence the FAQ response

Bless different and the same are the interchangeable . Everything arrives before the start of the movement phase hence why the FAQ applies to everything

Please read the rule book where this is clearly laid out, or the 15 page thread where this was proven to you countless times...

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate.

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

Seriously the amount of time the BT argument has jumped ship is ridiculous. Read the 15 page thread, and count how many times a BT argument is made, then refuted, then changed.

Reserves happen at the start of the turn, for ongoing reserves and turn 4, this is BULLETPROOF , for the preceding 3 turns we aren't told otherwise, so it's safe to assume it applies to them too.

Bear in mind, this whole reserves argument was based off of "arrive this turn" so they don't tell you they arrive at the start. Then you may bring them on in the assault phase if you want, we know this is wrong, if we follow the quote, "arrives automatically at the start of your fourth turn" we get an answer.
For reserves :
Option A. It arrives during the turn, not even just in the movement phase (woo no interceptor)

Option B. It arrives at the start, because Turn 4 is no different to turn 1/2/3.

They are the 2 options you can argue, you can't pick and choose bits of them.

"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

What if it was not bullet, but Bolter Shells?

"Moving on from reserves" may or may not be at the start of the movement phase.

"Arriving from reserved" is quite defined. Normal DS BTs arrive before the start of movement.

Is that where we're all at?

harkequin wrote:

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

A statement which I could make about the other side of the argument. Which would equally achieve nothing. Hence the HIWPI poll and the recent FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

harkequin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

Sigh.

You said that it was safe to assume that, because turn 4 reserves arrived at point X, that turn 1 - 3 reserves also turn up at point X

That is an assumption. ASsumptions cannot be bullet proof.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

No, the FAQ applies to blood tithe summons. If you want to continue to peddle your broken RAW arguments you should go back to that other thread where you failed to prove your case over the course of 15 or so pages rather than derail this one into the same debate

Just because refuse to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't proved.

A statement which I could make about the other side of the argument. Which would equally achieve nothing. Hence the HIWPI poll and the recent FAQ.

1. Yes you could, but like i said, one side is constantly changing arguments. whenever one gets refuted another just appears.
2. the FAQ means literally nothing, It's a house rule nothing more. You don't see every other person posting their local FAQs. It's a FMC, It arrives by deepstrike, for most people it doesn't even have to be clarified. In the other thread there were so many arguments but it boils down to this.
3. The HIWPI poll is a houserule, basically saying "who agrees it's a stupid rule, and for the sake of fairplay/forging the narrative, it should be allowed?"

FMCs Must move to change flight modes. (at the start of your move ... Can't start something you never do)
Things may not move in the movement phase they arrive by deep strike.
Argument that BT arrives pre-movement phase, so it doesn't count.
Reserves also arrive pre-movement phase (Concrete for T4, we are NOWHERE led to believe its different for T1/2/3)
Therefore BT, and all reserves may move the turn they arrive, as they did not arrive in the movement phase.

So basically either the BT gets to switch, and all reserves can move after arriving on to the board (They are axiomatic , you can't argue one without the other)
or
The BT waits a turn to switch, the game doesn't have to be entirely changed.

Or, since you never Declare your flight mode, you simply "count as", you can Declare during the shooting phase, before you Run, which is a Move.

Done.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Safe to assume" means it isn't bullet proof.

"if the roll is 2 or less, they arrive at the start of your fourth turn"

How is this not clear. It literally says that for turn 4, they arrive at the start of your turn. It's bulletproof, no matter what way you spin it, on T4, they arrive at the start of your turn.

Sigh.

You said that it was safe to assume that, because turn 4 reserves arrived at point X, that turn 1 - 3 reserves also turn up at point X

That is an assumption. ASsumptions cannot be bullet proof.

My bad, I structured it wrong. I meant to say "reserves arrive at the start of turn (for turn 4 this is bulletproof) .
Again, my bad, I should have structured it more clearly,

Self edit. Need to leave YMDC alone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, since you never Declare your flight mode, you simply "count as", you can Declare during the shooting phase, before you Run, which is a Move.

Done.

When you declare a flight mode, you are locked in until the start of your next turn. You arrive counting as swooping (for all intents and purposes), you are not given permission to change. There is also no precedent to allow it.

Yes, when y ou Declare a flight mode

When you deepstrike, you "counts as". There is NO declaration made

If you disagree, please state the rule showing that this "counts as" is a declaration.

Oh, and as for no precedent - its a unique rule. Precedent is impossible.

It's not a unique rule .... Are you seriously suggesting that all FMC's summoned via summoning may do this.
They arrive in the psychic phase, before the shooting(running) phase. It also applies to ALL FMCs that arrive via deepstrike. The BT is not as unique as people try to make it out to be. It's a free BT, that's all.

As a note, i would like to point out that a new argument spontaneously appeared again ...
the last one was "it arrives pre-movement" , now its "change it in the shooting phase"

Rule "...when a flying monstrous creature arrives you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Contextually, It means of the 2 options presented, it counts as one of them. I can see your argument though.

Just remember, If it applies to BT's It applies to ALL FMCs, including summoned ones. That is a discussion for another thread because it means almost everyone has been playing FMCs wrong.

Declaring a flight mode is unique. Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

It isn't a new argument, just new to this thread. It's also entirely supportable by rules, and frankly unimportant to this thread.