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Turn 4 is used contextually. The rule is staying there is no requirement to roll for reserves at the start of turn 4. They arrive automatically- without rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not immediately, or always , but automatically, at the start of turn 4, when you would otherwise be making a reserve roll

Right so you agree that they arrive automatically at the start of turn 4. Therefore they do not arrive in the movement phase.

They arrive automatically- without rolling.

at the start of your turn. Not in the movement phase.

Where is your backup that this is an exception to the rest of the turns, and not a precedent?

Either Turn 4 is unique or it isn't. which do you believe?

They arrive automatically. This is not when they arrive, but the precondition for their arrival, which is passing the reserve roll. This is done at the start of the turn.

I will not dispute the poor wording. But there is no rule to suggest that arrival happens at the start of every turn. Whilst there is a rule that says movement happens in the movement phase. And reserve moves are normal movement, with the exception of deep strike, which is also stated to occur in the movement phase.

Are you seriously trying to argue that

Arrives automatically at the start of the turn != Arrives automatically at the start of the turn ?

It arrives(what it does)
automatically (how it does it)
at the start of the turn (when it does it)

There is no way you can refute this.

Just as seriously as you are applying a rule stating turn 4 to every other turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the start of which turn do Reserves arrive automatically?

I have said it asked repeatedly for your opinion on if it is unique to turn 4, and what you would use to back it up. I'm seriously asking so we can put this to rest.
I have said it makes sense as a precedent, It gives us specific information that we did not have up until that point. And we are not led to believe it is any sort of exception.

And just to clarify, you are in fact arguing that
Something that arrives automatically at the start of the turn, does not in fact, arrive at the start of the turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

At the start of which turn do Reserves arrive automatically?

the fourth. they arrive automatically at the start of the fourth.

Unless your argument is that there is a difference between arrival and deployment, that the arrival is just the roll?

I am reading 'arrives automatically' as 'arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll'

So in total 'arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll at the start of turn 4' .
This is consistent with the rest of the paragraph, which is telling us how to make reserve rolls.

arrives without the requirement of a reserve roll at the start of turn 4'

So it still arrives at the start of turn 4 then.

It arrives, does it without a roll, and does it at the start of the turn.

The reserve roll would be at the start of turn. This is consistent. We are not told anywhere that reserves move on at the start of the turn.

If you can't agree that,

Something that arrives automatically at the start of the turn, arrives at the start of the turn, and does it automatically.

There is no point continuing this. It's obviously a discussion that is going to get nowhere because there is some fundamental problem with communication here.
I'll probably be back when it gets resurrected in a month though -.-

Just as something which happens on turn four, does not also happen on turns 2,3,5,6& 7

I think we understand each other fully yes.
Haha, I hope I am not. This takes far too much time, debating semantics of rules for no positive effect.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

You are misinterpreting my point. Read it again. I said the same as you. "the movement phase in which it arrives". If you read the rest of the comment It explains this.

If your group has decided that it can change that's fine, nothing wrong with houserules. This poll has shown that a significant number of people would play that way to suit you, because the rule is stupid, not because the rules permit it. It's the nature of HIWPI and houserules.

A tournament FAQ has literally no value here. There are hundereds of tourneys all over the world with conflicting houserules/faqs. It should never have been brought up. The only purpose it served was "this guy agrees with me" which was already a part of the poll.

I'm out. This is not going anywhere , It's like the damn 3 spyder argument.

TLDR-

"I disilike that my outflanking units cannot assault the turn they arrive, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise. It makes sense that my elite assault units would not stand there but would assault. So now they may"

is same as:

"I dislike that my deep striking FMC cannot assault the turn it arrives, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise. It makes sense that my uber assault FMC would not float there but instead would assault. So now they may"

although I wish for both, neither have any rules support and in fact are specifically told that they do not work that way in the rules.

blaktoof wrote:

"I dislike that my deep striking FMC cannot assault the turn it arrives, because there is a specific rule that says otherwise.

The argument is, that there is not a specific applicable rule. But I forgive you for not reading, it has got rather long.

I read the first 4 pages, and its just repeating of certain people trying to say that arriving by deepstrike for the blood tithe happens at some other time than normally arriving at deepstrike without any rules support to try and bypass the rules that specifically tell you what to do when a FMC arrives from deepstrike and what happens when you can change flight mode the following turn. Skimming the pages after page 4 are the same thing.

You know what, I didn't even read the first four pages of this one, so you're probably right. TLDR indeed. There is a relevant rules summary on YMDC if you search.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You know what, I didn't even read the first four pages of this one, so you're probably right. TLDR indeed. There is a relevant rules summary on YMDC if you search.

Well he provided a full rules summary for the argument for being able to change flight mode. Whilst is argument against can be summarised by "the rules say you can't"...

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Paraphrased to suit your argument. It actually says "During the movement phase in which they arrive...". It doesn't say "During the movement phase in the turn in which they arrive. .." which is what you are incorrectly interpreting it as saying.

Captyn_Bob has outlined the relevant arguments well, in more detail that I have time to at the moment. But to be honest we're more or less starting to repeat everything that was discussed in the 15 page RAW thread, to no real purpose.

If your group has decided a blood tithe summoned Bloodthirster can't change flight mode in the turn it arrives, that's fine. But this thread has shown many people think that it can, and the tournament FAQ also clarifies the rules this way.

You are misinterpreting my point. Read it again. I said the same as you. "the movement phase in which it arrives". If you read the rest of the comment It explains this.

I did read it. You deliberately omitted some key words in an attempt to change its meaning.

harkequin wrote:
If your group has decided that it can change that's fine, nothing wrong with houserules.

Except it's not a houserule if HIWPI is also following the RAW. As it is in this case.

harkequin wrote:
This poll has shown that a significant number of people would play that way to suit you, because the rule is stupid, not because the rules permit it.

You don't think they would play that way because they believe the rules do permit it? It seems like the most obvious reason.

harkequin wrote:
A tournament FAQ has literally no value here. There are hundereds of tourneys all over the world with conflicting houserules/faqs. It should never have been brought up. The only purpose it served was "this guy agrees with me" which was already a part of the poll.

The logical extension of this is that the entire YMDC forum has no value. Ultimately the only opinions that matter in any particular game regarding rules are those of the players involved, or those of the TO in a tournament setting. But since you're actively posting in YMDC you must accept that other peoples opinions have some relevance.

harkequin wrote:
I'm out. This is not going anywhere

Promise? That's what you intimated in your last post.

You don't think they would play that way because they believe the rules do permit it? It seems like the most obvious reason.

Well that is only a reason if the rules allow it which they clearly don't as you well know. The only reasons people would play it as the BT summoned models being able to change flight mode is that they want to change the rules or they haven't bothered to read the rules and someone has told them the wrong rules.

So... This seems to have covered everything relevant by this point. Moving on.