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So it seems like all the arguments have been made either for or against the bloodthirster (or flying demon prince) being summoned and either:

-being stuck in swooping mode, unable to change modes to gliding until the next turn, and then only able to assault the turn after that (so 2 turns after summoning)

or

-summoned in swooping mode, and then able to change modes to gliding the turn it is summoned and able to assault the turn after

We won't get into the rules specifics here, as that has been covered very thoroughly over the last week.

I am interested to know, HWYPI?

Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't a vote on RAW but just how you would play it (or let it play) in a game.

A slight oversimplification in the two options, but yeah would be good to gauge opinion, without the rules wrangling.

Ya there are like 4 or 5 other threads covering the points with 3 - 5 pages of posts each.

Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

Good call

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

I don't know if he meant that they wouldn't be able to if the bloodthirster could, but HIWPI I'd think they could if the bloodthirster could.

Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

If you're curious, there's a whole thread summarising the various rules..

I think the OP wanted to keep things simple.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Summarizing the two arguments in the initial post would have been nice.

Absent any clarification, I said option one.

If you're curious, there's a whole thread summarising the various rules..

I think the OP wanted to keep things simple.

For reference, a summary of the rules arguments can be found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/644043.page
For a complete list you would have to read through all the threads yourself, but the nice gentleman who put together that list did a fair job I think

I didn't want it to be a vote on RAW, but just how you would play it (or let it play) in a game.

HIWPI, option 2. But not just for Tithe summoned things. I feel tithe summoned things are just as restricted as to what they can or cannot do as other units. I just don't feel it was ever the RAI that any FMC that arrived on turn 2 via deep strike would be unable to declare a charge on turn 3.

Honestly why they changed Flying Monstrous Creatures being able to charge the turn they change flight modes in the first place is beyond me. It was never really much of an issue anyways.

 Ignatius wrote:
Honestly why they changed Flying Monstrous Creatures being able to charge the turn they change flight modes in the first place is beyond me. It was never really much of an issue anyways.

Evidently they don't want people to be able to charge unless their opponent gets a full turn of full Bs shooting at you first. The change is in line with other changes from 6th. Unless you're BAs then go nuts DS and charge turn 1...

rigeld2 wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
Honestly i cant see how RAI would be letting this melee monster to wait 2 turn before doing anything...

So because this only has a melee option it's special?

And a Melee kitted Flyrant/Demon Prince gets screwed?

HIWPI is to be consistent.

Its nto because it is melee... it is becuase it is summoned trough blood tithe table... so yes Daemon price shoul be also able to charge next turn... No idea how Flerant is related. Im nor arguing about FMC changing modes after deep strike here but about FMC after summoning frough blood tithe table. FMC after regular deep strike is pretty clear imo.

But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

Its nto because it is melee... it is becuase it is summoned trough blood tithe table... so yes Daemon price shoul be also able to charge next turn... No idea how Flerant is related. Im nor arguing about FMCchanging modes after deep strike here but about FMC after summoning frough blood tithe table. FMC after regular deep strike is pretty clearimo. 

But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Just because you want something to be true and it is not OP doesn't mean that is GWs intent. It is not OP for tac marines to be relentless, they are GWs flagship unit and it makes no sense that they can't use their heavy weapon whilst trying to get in range with their special weapon and bolters. They are supposed to be the best all round troops in the game it makes no sense from a background or game point of view that they are worse in such a dramatic way than basic guardsmen veterans...

Also note the Prince is not forced to take wings so he can get into assault the turn after he arrives if you want him too. Which further points to the RaI. Also arriving swooping makes you immune to interceptor as your opponent dare not shoot you for fear of grounding you.

Do I wish you could change flight modes when you arrived or indeed just choose to declare gliding? Yes. Is that the rules? No. Is there ANYTHING in the Blood Tithe summoning rules that even hints that the DS rules are different for them? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the bias pole is bias. You've failed to mention in option 2 that the summoned FMC gets to also move 12" and indeed must move 12"-24" if he chooses to stay in swooping.

Voted.

HIWPI Blood Tithe summoning should not require 2 Turns of flight, they're not flying in from reserves, they're summoned and that does not seem to Stop the unwinged version from charging....

I voted HIWPI for anyone playing against me - that it can "change" modes and charge. Given the difficulty you can have in getting to 8 points in the first place, and given that unlike true reserves you have no way to manipulate (no +1, no reroll, etc) your chances of bringing it in earlier, it seems most fair.

I wouldnt ask for this if / when I get round to running one, I will just bring in daemon princes instead. The fact you can bring along non winged DPs via the Tithe has NOTHING to do with the charge rule; it is purely that wings are an option you are not forced to take. Thats it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The fact you can bring along non winged DPs via the Tithe has NOTHING to do with the charge rule; it is purely that wings are an option you are not forced to take. Thats it.

IMHO it make fluff sense, to be consistent (by Rules) across the entire Blood Tithe summoning results. If you want to go up into Swoop mode, it'd be an additional choice, not an enforced restriction.

I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

Fling, this is a simple HIWPI poll with two options, its not going into that argument at all.

(which is not how anyone would play it, even if a RAW argument can be constructed)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Fling, this is a simple HIWPI poll with two options, its not going into that argument at all.

(which is not how anyone would play it, even if a RAW argument can be constructed)

Well if HYWPI is they can change flight mode then HYWPI is that you can move units that arrive from BT summoning. They are the same thing. The pole seems to indicate many people would like to play it that their models can move after summoning.

Well if HYWPI is they can change flight mode then HYWPI is that you can move units that arrive from BT summoning. They are the same thing. The pole seems to indicate many people would like to play it that their models can move after summoning.

Fling, leave it. This isnt RAW anymore, we settled that, even if some don't agree. This is a houseruling matter. The poster is wondering how many people would houserule it to allow it to essentially arrive in gliding mode. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's HYWPI so, you can ignore parts of RAW, in favor of the houserule people want to use. This thread is for opinions, not official rules.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

 Yksak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

I'm talking about RAI.

 Yksak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Yksak wrote:
But in this case i dont think they made top two abilities of this codex most useless because of this. I honestly hope it gets FAQed because there is no way they intended Bloodthirster and Khorne Deamon Princes to just fly around for two turn before the game ends, thats just nonsence from fluff & gaming point of you. So i cant see why so many people is voting against it.. its not even OP or anything

Why does a blood tithe bloodthirstier get to be special and charge the next turn while a conjured bloodthirster from the malefic power (the same exact unit) has to wait two turns?

How can you say the RAI is clear when their is a precedent for summoned FMCs to wait two turns?

How is it precendent when one is summoning it before movement phase and the other one after? Also conjuration is clearly explained in the BRB and it is clearly not same mechanism as summoning via Blood tithe table.

Well as he stated RaI is a precedent. RaW you can move when you arrive by DS, also normal reserves is yet another precedent. There is literally no reason to allow them to move other than Daemonkin players wanting our codex to be better than it is.

Fling you only ever mention one side of the argument and state your side as fact, I think that's a bit biased.

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work.

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: some see it as a RAW issue others as a RAI issue of why to allow the mode change

chaosmarauder wrote:

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work.

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.

This

FlingitNow wrote:

Well as he stated RaI is a precedent. RaW you can move when you arrive by DS, also normal reserves is yet another precedent. There is literally no reason to allow them to move other than Daemonkin players wanting our codex to be better than it is.

Im getting lost here.. anyway just fyi dont get fooled by my avatar im not Daemokin player.. just CSM

Thank you for just making a poll to to keep from blowing up a thread with nonsense.

I wish we had more people like you on dakka!