Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a great poll !

Any reference to other summoning is not applicable because the reason they cant change is because of timing. Summoning occurs AFTER the movement phase. As the movement phase is the only time you are able to change modes any precedent is not valid.

LADS leave it out. We have 3! seperate threads for RAW. You don't even need to discuss RAI here.

Regardless of any rules in the game, related or not. Would you house rule it to

allow it more effect in the game, even later on.
Or
Do you think it should stay as is, so it is a bigger deal to get it out on turn 2 through massive sacrificial plays? (that summoning a blood thirster should be rare enough, that its hard to find a right situation to do it)

Fling you only ever mention one side of the argument and state your side as fact, I think that's a bit biased. 

There isn't a single place in the rulebook that clearly states the intent of how it works without having to draw some conclusions on how several other rules work. 

A clear rule wouldn't cause any arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: some see it as a RAW issue others as a RAI issue of why to allow the mode change

Firstly RaW there is only one side to the argument. The side of the rules which are clearly a no. Despite what people want them to be.

RaI doesn't need to be explicitly stated to be clear. There is nothing different here to a FMC arriving from DS reservein terms of what it can do that turn and when it arrives. So there is literally no evidence that this is intended to work any differently. Not even a hint. The ONLY reason to work this differently is to change the rules to make our Codex better. This is exactly the same as me putting up a HYWPI pole for Tactical Marines to be relentless.

Clear rules frequently cause arguments by people that either don't understand the rules or people who desperately want the rules to mean something they don't. Just check the frequent threads on Allied Detachments being taken alongside parent codexes with 6th Ed Supplements. The rules are abundantly clear yet arguments persist. The rules here are clear there is literally nothing that even hints that Blood Tithe summoned FMCs should be under a different set of restrictions to FMCs that arrive from DS reserve. There is literally no new DS rules in the BT and nothing even hinting that you get to move.

Where is the raw support for your argument that you cant?

Other than the fact that the timing is different (which is the reason that they cant do it normally) you would be correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Yeah that's the simplest HIWPI (and has Some RAW support) and 'probably' certainly what the author intended.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yeah that's the simplest HIWPI (and has Some RAW support) and 'probably' certainly what the author intended.

You could see it RaW depending on exactly how the very horrible RaW is read:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

1) (Usually we are all reading) If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
2)If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives FROM Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Not a lot read 2), but it is just as "correct" as 1. If only the BrB defined exactly what "Deep Strike Reserve" meant, not just what is "sometimes" called such....

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Likewise, I can't see why I should believe should treat summoning units any differently to regular deep striking units.

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I say keep it simple: treat them the same as any other FMC that deep strikes.

Yes, they aren't in DS Reserves and all that (maybe), but I see no indication that GW intended for these guys to work army differently to normal deep strikers.

Keep it simple, and keep it consistent.

That said, I do think GW should just remove the line that forces FMCs to deep strike in Swooping mode. I don't see it as being any different to a Jump MC doing the same.

Agreed. I wonder how many people will actually allow their opponent to move their BT summoned models after DS. Remembering changing flight modes also enables moving. DS my Bloodcrushers safely far away from the enemy then move 12" straight towards where I actually wanted them.

There is also the simple HYWPI that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster arrives Gliding. But he Deep Struck, so no charging that Turn. The turn after he can go Swoop if he decides to, or Glide and charge.

Simplest of solutions
I really cannot see why the RaI of arriving Swooping from Deep Strike Reserves (fluff/setting concept of Deep Striking from Reserves) should apply to a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. IMHO.

Likewise, I can't see why I should believe should treat summoning units any differently to regular deep striking units.

Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

That may be a fluffly reason, no doubt. It's weird to think of a guy getting turned into a giant rage monster that's flying, when the guy was standing on the ground. However, these are the rules we got, so we really should follow them else we start coming up with similar "fluffy" justifications. For example, why can't I have my Valkyrie start on the battlefield in Hover mode? It's not like it HAS to fly in from somewhere else right?

I know a lot of people will play it that it's gliding in so it can charge the next turn, but I really, REALLY would like them to say "now I know the rules don't support this, but will you allow it?" before just doing it. I'll honestly consider it then. But if they try to pull this as a surprise on me, then that's not playing the game by the rules.

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

We have no precedent for daemons showing up when they do, so trying to compare it to something else is pointless

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

Sorry what? What timing are you talking about?

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

Sorry it is not "horrible RaW" it is not Raw at all. It is also very clearly not RaI. At least be honest that this is rules you've made up to make your codex stronger. RaI is the authors intent, if he intended for this to work differently to normal deep strike then he would have said so, or he would have put some wording in to change how the BT interacts with the usual DS rules. He didn't therefore there is no difference clear as day RaI. No moving or changing flight mode you are swooping when you arrive both RaW and clear RaI. That might not be how you WANT it to work and your HYWPI might be just to give codexes made up rules to make them better. That is fine and if your group agrees go ahead but don't try to dress this up as RaW or RaI when you know full well that it is neither.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Except that at present order of operations say that yes, it can. It has nothing to do with it being a special case of "we said so" it has 100% to do with the timing.

Sorry what? What timing are you talking about?

Oh my yes, its horrible RAW.

But when horrible RAW = RAI most people are happy.

Sorry it is not "horrible RaW" it is not Raw at all. It is also very clearly not RaI. At least be honest that this is rules you've made up to make your codex stronger. RaI is the authors intent, if he intended for this to work differently to normal deep strike then he would have said so, or he would have put some wording in to change how the BT interacts with the usual DS rules. He didn't therefore there is no difference clear as day RaI. No moving or changing flight mode you are swooping when you arrive both RaW and clear RaI. That might not be how you WANT it to work and your HYWPI might be just to give codexes made up rules to make them better. That is fine and if your group agrees go ahead but don't try to dress this up as RaW or RaI when you know full well that it is neither.

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

There really is no point arguing with Fling dude. He has shown nothing but overwhelming bias, and has derailed every attempt to discuss this rationally, by repeatedly asserting his opinion, and insulting everyone elses.

 Leth wrote:
Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

In that case, the movement rules only allow you to select a unit to begin moving if that unit is capable of movement at all. If this is the order, then you Start the Turn, Deep Strike in, and never select the FMC in the first place in order to change it's flight mode. You change flight mode at the start of the model's move (not the start of the phase), and if you can never select the model in order to move it, then you cannot change its flight mode.

If you now change your argument to be that it's "moving" by Deep Striking, then by the time it's on the battlefield, it's no longer "the start of the model's move" by the time it's on the battlefield. In this case, even assuming you could change it's flight mode before it arrives on the table, when it arrives it'll be set to Swooping.

Either way, it must be Swooping. There's no point inbetween that you are allowed to change modes. You can't choose to change to Gliding immediately after placing the model on the board but before Movement Phase, and when it comes to Movement Phase you can't select the model to move it, and therefore never get the opportunity to change flight modes. There's really no way around it. For 100% the same reason, a Deep Striking Flying Hive Tyrant can't change flight modes when it comes in, because it is 100% the same rules that govern how this event occurs. Flavourfully it may be remarkably different (hence why I get the confusion), but rules-wise it is entirely consistent.

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes. 

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

A few points, are you aware that all reserves arrive at the start of the turn? This is clearly laid out in the reserves rules.

Secondly Deepstriking is moving again the rules make this clear. Whilst you don't pick your flight move in the movement phase but when you move and you are stuck in that flight mode till the start of your next turn. Also to have a start of your move you must be able to move.

So you arrive at the start of the turn just like every other deepstriker. You start swooping just like every other deepstriker and are therefore stuck swooping until the start of your next turn. Finally you can't move so have no opportunity to change flight mode (which you wouldn't be allowed to do even if you could move which you can't).

This is the RaW fact of the rules. Due to nothing being different to normal DS this is also the clear RaI. However some people want their codex to get made up rules to make it better so want HYWPI to be that you can move when you arrive by DS.

harkequin wrote:

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

That would work, except there are a number of options a model can engage in during the movement phase that are not considered moving. So moving is not the loss of the phase, but the model can not engage in anything that counts as movement

 Leth wrote:

harkequin wrote:

Start of turn phase when it deep strikes in is before movement phase. Movement phase is when they shift modes.

Start of turn - Deep strike in, begin movement phase - switch modes. Not seeing the problem

Doesn't work. You dont change modes "in the movement phase" , you change at the start of a models move .

How do you start a move you never make?

That would work, except there are a number of options a model can engage in during the movement phase that are not considered moving. So moving is not the loss of the phase, but the model can not engage in anything that counts as movement

Glad you ignored all the other reasons your timing issue is false. Now do you have permission to change flight mode when not moving? As the FMC rules require start of your MOVE so if you're not moving you're not changing flight mode.

Re-reading it you are correct. I thought it said at the start of its movement phase. It does not.

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them.

So technically there is nothing preventing them from moving as normal.

I think the may change modes but not move was a sort of hybrid approach to try and satisfy both parties.

I voted for the change option although I don't think change is the right word.

I think that when a FMC arrives from Deep Strike Reserves it arrives swooping and it can't change it's flight mode regardless of whether it arrives at the start of the turn phase or in the movement phase.

Summoned FMC are specifically told to treat the creature like it is coming from Reserves, so they too are stuck in swooping mode (assuming I am remembering the quoted rules correctly).

BTBT are told to use Deep Strike rules, but do not say to treat them like they are coming from reserves.

The Deep Strike rules do not set the flight mode for the FMC. FMC rules set the mode to swooping for Deep Strike RESERVES, make it player choice if is coming from regular reserves, and gliding if it is the start of the game deployment.

As BlackTalos mentioned, the statement that Deep Strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves unfortunately does mean it is referred to that way every time which causes this issue in my eyes.

Fling treats the sometimes clause as an every time clause and is deciding it needs to be set to swooping (That is the way I read your posts anyway, correct me if I misinterpreted).

If you don't treat the sometimes as an every time you are left with no defined choice for the BTBT flight mode as it meets none of the requirements for the starting flight mode rules for a FMC.

This is were HYWPI comes in, treat it like reserves, it's swooping with no change. Treat it like deployment, it's gliding with no change. Or say it and say players choice with no change.

I think after reading through the threads I am sitting in the player's choice column.

 Yarium wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Because 1 of them is summoned there and then, appears right into the thick of the combat, but the other is Flying over from another part of the map, high in the sky, and Deep Striking onto the battlefield from up-high?

That may be a fluffly reason, no doubt. It's weird to think of a guy getting turned into a giant rage monster that's flying, when the guy was standing on the ground. However, these are the rules we got, so we really should follow them else we start coming up with similar "fluffy" justifications. For example, why can't I have my Valkyrie start on the battlefield in Hover mode? It's not like it HAS to fly in from somewhere else right?

I know a lot of people will play it that it's gliding in so it can charge the next turn, but I really, REALLY would like them to say "now I know the rules don't support this, but will you allow it?" before just doing it. I'll honestly consider it then. But if they try to pull this as a surprise on me, then that's not playing the game by the rules.

Of course, prior agreement will always be needed. Plus it's not really a "new Surprise move" from Daemonkin.

More that, having spent quite some time now on YMDC analysing, arguing and checking RaW 25 times, it seems the very "basic" flight mode directive is flawed, at best.

Lusiphur wrote:
I voted for the change option although I don't think change is the right word.

I think that when a FMC arrives from Deep Strike Reserves it arrives swooping and it can't change it's flight mode regardless of whether it arrives at the start of the turn phase or in the movement phase.

Summoned FMC are specifically told to treat the creature like it is coming from Reserves, so they too are stuck in swooping mode (assuming I am remembering the quoted rules correctly).

BTBT are told to use Deep Strike rules, but do not say to treat them like they are coming from reserves.

The Deep Strike rules do not set the flight mode for the FMC. FMC rules set the mode to swooping for Deep Strike RESERVES, make it player choice if is coming from regular reserves, and gliding if it is the start of the game deployment.

As BlackTalos mentioned, the statement that Deep Strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves unfortunately does mean it is referred to that way every time which causes this issue in my eyes.

Fling treats the sometimes clause as an every time clause and is deciding it needs to be set to swooping (That is the way I read your posts anyway, correct me if I misinterpreted).

If you don't treat the sometimes as an every time you are left with no defined choice for the BTBT flight mode as it meets none of the requirements for the starting flight mode rules for a FMC.

This is were HYWPI comes in, treat it like reserves, it's swooping with no change. Treat it like deployment, it's gliding with no change. Or say it and say players choice with no change.

I think after reading through the threads I am sitting in the player's choice column.

Please note, though, that this is only if you wilfully ignore the word "VIA" in that rule, and its definition in the English language.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Which is why i'm more than happy calling it HIWPI but probably not RaW in such an argument

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them. 

Only if you believe that clause doesn't apply to anyone as normal reserves also arrive at the start of the turn.

 FlingitNow wrote:

However that causes different problem. Since they do not deep strike during the movement phase of their turn the not being allowed to move clause does not apply to them. 

Only if you believe that clause doesn't apply to anyone as normal reserves also arrive at the start of the turn.

False logic is false, how a rule affects a totally different situation has no effect on the rule at hand.


And reserves move on in the movement phase- Heyooo did I say that again? Well its true and constantly misinterpreting one line in a section unrelated to sequencing won't change that.

anyway I'm being silly this is a HIWPI thread, and not the place for rules wrangling.

1) I did not think we were discussing the RULES in this thread, but rather how we would play it.

2) If any one is trying to get technical with the deep strike rules you need to remember a few key facts. First, units that deep strike need to begin the game in reserves. Second, conjured units a treated as if they began the game in reserves. Third, tithe units either need to be treated like the began the game in reserves or that cannot deep strike. Conclusion, there should be no determinable difference between a tithe summoned unit and a conjured unit.

3) The FMC flight mode rules are broken. They do not work as written when held up to scrutiny.

4) I do not believe it was the intent of writers to prevent a deep striking FMC from being able to charge the turn after it arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
And reserves move on in the movement phase

No they don't.

I would play it allowing any FMC To change its flight mode in the turn it arrives not just BT's as I don't see why they should get any unique special treatment. I don't believe the authors intended to make deep striking fmc's next to bloody useless.
This is the house rule implemented in my local GW store. Everyone Who Ive played with so far has found this pretty reasonable. Of course if someone wanted to play RAW I would respect that, but I'd probably also insist we also play RAW regarding characters being slain or slaying an enemy character in a challenge effectively doubling the BT points each of my units is worth.

Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

I think this is one of the strongest examples that your side of the argument could give. Well done!

However, I don't think it matters. Where they arrive from doesn't matter. If your Necrons had a FMC that could be teleported off the board and back on using Deep Strike rules, then that FMC would be set as Swooping, regardless of whether it was Gliding or Swooping when you went to teleport it. Then, during the movement phase, you wouldn't be able to select it to even consider moving with it, and so couldn't change your flight mode either.