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Show me the rule where it states that psychic summoning does not take place in the psychic phase.

Show me the rule that states a BT may change flight modes in the shooting phase, but not a deepstriking hive tyrant.

Show me where it says that the bloodthirster is unique, that it is the only FMC that arrives before the shooting phase.

The problem here is that if it applies to the BT, It applies to all FMCs. The BT is not a unique case.
The shooting phase switch would also allow psychicly summoned FMCs to switch as well.

You can't argue one without the other.

. Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

I'm going to need some evidence that psychic summoning does not happen in the psychic phase *and* in fact, somehow happens after the shooting phase, otherwise it still stands.

No
No
No
No

Because I don't need to

My point on unique was the declaration requirement for fmc. As in, that's unique.

Context is king, I was talking about tithe summoning

I have no problem with my totally correct rule reading meaning people are playing fmc wrong. I care little for others play, as it doesn't affect me.

It's not a unique rule .... Are you seriously suggesting that all FMC's summoned via summoning may do this.
They arrive in the psychic phase,

Summoning occurs in an entirely different phase to psychic powers.

You made the assertion that summoning did not happen in the psychic phase, when I addressed psychic summoning, you missed the context there.

My point still stands. Feel free to argue that all FMCs may change in the shooting phase. Don't pretend that the BT is unique. It is the same as any other FMC when you look at it.

Like i said, that is a different thread. If you want to point out that people have been playing it wrong, i have no issue.
This thread had people arguing that the BT is unique.

All my points were showing that any ruling you apply to the bloodthirster applies to other FMCs. You can't pick and choose which parts of the rules to use (unless you are house ruling).

So basically, If you want to argue that the BT is unique compared to all other FMCs, this is the thread for you. If you want to argue that we have all been playing FMCs wrong, then it would be better suited to another appropriate thread.

I was not arguing such. My only reference to unique was in relation to the declaration requirement. One that is, factually, not met by the ds counts as clause.

Yes, which affects all FMCs.
Like I said, another issue for another thread.
This thread is about the BT being unique, that it can change flight modes, while other FMCs can't.

No. This thread isn't saying the bt is unique. The op never constrained it to that

It is purely a hywpi thread on bts. Nothing more.

Right. Exactly.
It isn't a hywpi on if FMCs can do it. It's specific to the BT.

Indeed. Hence saying this works for bt is saying nothing about other FMCs. People have been playing fmc incorrectly.

Yes. I get what you are saying.

I'm just pointing out that the spirit of the BT threads (multiple) is that the BT may choose, but not other FMCs. Which is why i feel that this thread isn't the place to discuss general ruling issues.

If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

All reserves arrive prior to movement. They are functionally the same, they arrive via DS at the start of the turn. If you want to houserule it so that BTs are special go ahead, just don't pretend it's RAW.

Also, that FAQ is still useless, It's not an FAQ it's a houserule. I could post my locals "FAQ" on it, and have as much authority.

It is a FAQ, for that tournament. It just isnt a GW FAQ.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If you want to point out that the BT is allowed, and all other FMCs that's fine, I'm not going to argue with that, i'm just making sure that people apply whatever ruling to both parties, as they are functionally the same.
Whatever advantage khorne gets, so do the nids.

If you're referring to the FAQ then it only applies to the blood tithe summons. Which aren't "functionally the same" as FMCs from DS reserve as they arrive prior to movement, as the FAQ clarifies.

All reserves arrive prior to movement. They are functionally the same, they arrive via DS at the start of the turn. If you want to houserule it so that BTs are special go ahead, just don't pretend it's RAW

Sorry but that just hasn't been proven. The RAW discussion was done to death in the other thread though. This is an HIWPI thread and the point of interest is that the recent tournament FAQ is clarifying the blood tithe rules as allowing a change in flight mode during the turn a blood tithe summons arrives which many also agree is in accordance with the RAW.

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a FAQ, for that tournament. It just isnt a GW FAQ.

And my local FAQd it the opposite. It really has no bearing on the discussion other than "These people agree with me"

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

Harlequin - but this is a HWYPI thread. So it is totally on topic and relevant. Same as your revelation that your lcoal (unknown size, composition of people au fait with all rules, etc) ruled the opposite way. Was it in a published FAQ, or just a local houserule that is "known" about through word of mouth? Im genuinely interested in how organised some FLGS are getting with this.

You are not led anywher in believing turns 1 - 3 are the same or different to turn 4. The rules are silent on this. Hence, pointing out - repeatedly - your assumption that it must be the same.

Sadly, i voted for being allowed to change fling modes, but after reading TOO MANY treads on the topic, I think my stance has moved to a third option:

i dont play a HUGE amount of games, and when i do, its most with my ork/tau/necron buddy. If i was facing more DSing FMCs, Id be more nailed down to an answer, but as I am the daemon player (and i dont currently have much khorne in my army), I will not be expanding my collection to include a BT (yet). It makes me sad cuz i play this game because of the awesome models, but the two go hand in hand: Cool models+ Cool games = fun time for sasquatch

I know this wont add much weight to either side of the argument, but id like to add my HIWPI.... I just wont until they get their sh*t together

harkequin wrote:

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

So in other words, no, you can't prove it. You're correct in that this has all been discussed in the RAW thread but nothing was "dealt with" conclusively. Hence the need for FAQs.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

If you believe you can prove that FMCs arriving from DS reserve in the movement phase can also change flight mode in that turn, please do start another RAW thread stating your case. I'd love it if this were true. If you can prove it without citing any of the blood tithe rules for Daemonkin I might even believe you.

They arrive at the start of the turn.
From the BRB. We are explicitly told that they arrive at the start of the turn for turn 4, and for ongoing reserves. Are you arguing that Turns 1/2/3 are different? when we are not led to believe so.

Since according to your argument, the "movement phase they arrive" doesn't apply to things arriving at the start of the turn, It doesn't apply to reserves. You need to back up your assertion that they arrive in the movement phase. Where does it tell us to treat turns 1/2/3 differently? It explicitly tells us when they arrive for T4 & ongoing reserves, and nowhere is it implied they are an exception.

If you read the other thread you will see this has been brought up and dealt with. I can't quote the exact rule as I don't have the book on hand. If you look in the other thread you will find the relevant quotes.

So in other words, no, you can't prove it. You're correct in that this has all been discussed in the RAW thread but nothing was "dealt with" conclusively. Hence the need for FAQs.

Seriously? On Reserves from the BRB (Direct quote) " If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
Unless you are arguing that every other single turn in the game is different for reserves, this should settle it.

Bear in mind the argument for reserves in the movement phase consists of the quote "If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn" which supports arriving in the movement phase as much as it supports arriving in the shooting phase (after interceptor)


We are given the timing for reserves, and no indication that it is any different for the other turns. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. That's my proof right there, can you dispute it?

You are applying a rule which is talking about how you make reserve rolls, which is quite obviously only applicable to turn 4, to every turn. You have no permission to do this. Your argument is flawed.

The established rule of movement happens in the movement phase would still apply. And applies to every turn. It is also consistent with how we are told to deep strike.

You are wrong on this one.

Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Is Turn 4 different to Turns 1/2/3 what is your basis for this.

The point is there is a precedence set, and unless you are allowing me to deep strike after interceptor because they "arrive that turn" , then your argument doesn't hold.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You are applying a rule which is talking about how you make reserve rolls, which is quite obviously only applicable to turn 4, to every turn. You have no permission to do this. Your argument is flawed.

The established rule of movement happens in the movement phase would still apply. And applies to every turn. It is also consistent with how we are told to deep strike.

You are wrong on this one.

The rulebook is not wrong on this. Despite your claims the rulebook is correct. The rulebook claims reserves arrive at the start of the turn. All relevant rules talk about arrival (not deployment which also happens at the start of the turn).

The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

That is a restriction on an action not a statement of when that action occurs the reserves rules tell us this. Please read the relevant rules before posting you're better than this Nos.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The movement phase in which they arrive. Are you asserting this means ...of the turn... , they just forgot To add those words in?

Pretty much. People like to pretend the BT is special and exempt to it, the point being made here is whatever way you rule it, the BT isn't unique. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn too. Either all FMCs can change after deepstrike or none can. No playing favorites.

Either you believe there is some mistake with the above rule, and so apply it to everything evenly, or play it how it is technically written where it has literally no effect on the game. I'm not telling you which way to play it, but they are the options.

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Similar to "in the first turn this unit assaults, they have AP3" does not mean they assault the first turn.

harkequin wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Where does it say to arrive in the movement phase?
It says they arrive that turn, may they arrive in the shooting phase?

Umm the Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. But you know this already; you're just choosing to ignore it.

They do not. They say "in the movement phase they arrive, they may not move any further" (paraphrased)
This is a restriction. If a unit arrives, it may not move any further the movement phase it arrives, if it does not arrive in the movement phase this has no effect.

Similar to "in the first turn this unit assaults, they have AP3" does not mean they assault the first turn.

I agree. This restriction only makes logical sense if reserves movement happens in the movement phase however. Which we can assume it does, as it is defined as movement, we know movement happens in the movment phase, and there is no specific rule (applicable to every turn) saying otherwise.

Not all movement happens in the movement phase.
Charging , running , turbo booting, assault moves etc.

Saying that because it is movement it happens in the movement phase doesn't help.

The only time we are told reserves arrive is in the reserves section. It tells us they arrive this turn, It also tells us that (at least for T4 and ongoing reserves) they arrive at the start of the turn. This sets a precedent for when reserves arrive.

Unless you are contesting that as long as reserves arrive during the turn, they are legal, which opens up a huge can of worms.

So the options are to argue that either reserves are unique for T4 and ongoing(this is not even implied anywhere). Or they are the same. Which side do you choose, and how do you back it up?

We are told reserves arrive after rolling reserves and before moving other units, so there is no can of worms.
My interpretation is consistent with all rules and sane interpretation of a section discussing reserve rolls. I am happy with this.

We are also told they arrive at the start of the turn. Considering that "start of turn" and "start of phase" , Both happen after rolling but before, moving other units, and one of them is mentioned.
My interpretation is consistent with as many rules as yours and a sane interpretation of discussing reserves.

Is turn 4 used contextually? telling you when reserves arrive.

Or are you asserting that turn 4 is unique in the regard that it's reserves arrive at the start of the turn, and if so, can you back this up as unique?