Khorne Daemonkin - Bloodthirster Summoning HYWPI Poll

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**FlingitNow**

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

I always thought you got the 2+ everytime you DS'd pretty certain this is clear in the rules. Though my codex is in my desk at work, I am a necron player but have stopped using Deathmarks now as they got rid of Despairteks

so I can't check and don't know it as fact.

**Gingir**

FlingitNow wrote:

I always thought you got the 2+ everytime you DS'd pretty certain this is clear in the rules. Though my codex is in my desk at work, I am a necron player but have stopped using Deathmarks now as they got rid of Despairteks so I can't check and don't know it as fact.

Nope!

I think the 5e codex was worded that way. But 7e codex explicitly states Deep Strike Reserves. I just got off of work and checked the codex and it is most certainly DSR.

**FlingitNow**

But that would still trigger for Veil/ghostwalk mantle.

**Gingir**

As much as I'd like to debate this further, I don't think this is the place to do so, so as to not derail this thread any further.

I would be happy to talk about this in another thread or via PM. I say this, as I understand your stance, but I disagree on your conclusion.

**harkequin**

But that would still trigger for Veil/ghostwalk mantle.

Yeah i initially thought the other way, but after intensly scrutinising the deepstrike rules(for some *other* thread), I am aware that RAW actually favors it.

However as a necron player, no way i'm playing it like that for my D-marks. This is not RAW, not even RAI. I just don't feel right doing it, it's sort of counter intuitive, and i dont want to have to point out the technicality of Deep strike reserves & deepstrike being the same.

And most of all, and I cant stress this enough, it's not needed, they come in , delete something, and then are rapid fire snipers. + who's wasting their veil/mantle with them anyway :p

All this being said, If an opponenet brought it up, or insisted RAW, I would have no issue, thems the rules.

**SRSFACE**

My two cents:

I believe in rules representing a fluffy action. Deep Striking as a rule is things just warping or dropping into the battlefield. The reason FMCs "deep strike" as always being in swooping mode, to me, is because it's representing them soaring super high in the sky and then dropping into the battle in a rapid flying swooping action.

The issue with the Bloodthirster being summoned in is though while it's a deep strike, it's representing a different kind of being brought onto the battlefield. Non-flying units are just simply there, poof, instant battle ready.

So I think a summoned creature, while technically deepstriking in, should be allowed to choose which flight mode it's in. I imagine the Bloodthirster being summoned in from The Warp was not mid-flight 100% of the time he appears in realspace.

That said, a purchased army-list Bloodthirster deep striking in would follow the usual rules of deep striking because I mean you can plan for that ahead of time.

**BlackTalos**

Gingir wrote:
Okay, so, this is probably a bad idea to post this, as it'll cause more conflict than it will resolve, but I feel the need to add this to the discussion here instead of making another thread.

I want to preface my post again by saying that I am not a daemon player, but am a Necron player. In my experience I also tend to err on the side of caution and would avoid using hiwpi answers in my favor when at the table. As a general rule I would also not consider a BTBT as able to shift flight modes in the turn it comes in.

All that said, I want to add this into the mix. I think we need to be careful with calling instances of Deep Strike, Deep Strike "Reserves". I say this, as there are other issues that this could cause, IE: Necron Deathmarks. Upon arriving from Deep Strike " Reserves" they get their hunters from hyperspace buff. If all instances of DS are equivalent to DSR, than a Veil of Darkness would reapply their buff.

I would argue this is obviously not the intended interaction, which is why we need to watch the wording of our arguments.

Of course, counter to what might have been posted, i always insist that it is know that:

- Being in Deep Strike Reserves, and coming onto the board from Deep Strike Reserves
1) Does not necessarily mean the Unit is arriving by Deep Strike (Drop Pod passengers).
2) Is not the only way to arrive by Deep Strike.

So you are indeed correct, but as it has been said, i also do not think that it make a difference for the current debate / Poll

Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:
, and i dont want to have to point out the technicality of Deep strike reserves & deepstrike being the same.

Just as i can, but will not as it would count as derailing the thread, explain and support how "Deep Strike Reserves", "Deep Striking", and "by Deep Strike" are 3 unique Terms that apply at different times to different Units, and may be completely separate

**harkequin**

Just as i can, but will not as it would count as derailing the thread

Think that ship may have sailed mate, but i get what you're saying.

**Yksak**

Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

**FlingitNow**

Yksak wrote:
Already being FAQed on bigger tournaments.. so there haters

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Source:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5bkcwkl1lad0dic/AACLrKec0Ub-7vx2-CEq4udya/KILLA%20FAQ%20revised.pdf?dl=0

Cool so you get to move in the movement phase to by that rather nonsensical FAQ. Indeed you are forced to move 12" if you pick swooping. It also completely ignores all the wording for all relevant rules and applies to normal FMC arriving by DS reserve the way it is worded.

**Yksak**

Mate i dont know what FAQ you are reading... the one i posted says you can change flight mode.. not that you are forced to move 12" or anything else... just change modes thats it. It is obviously RAI so just go with it.

**FlingitNow**

In order to change flight mode you have to move. So the FAQ allowing one, automatically allows the other.

**Yksak**

Or it doesnt.. try to imagine it... its very hard i know but just try it

**harkequin**

He's right, It's not the start of the movement phase, It's the start of your move.

So if you change modes, you have to start (and therefore be allowed to make) a move.

And to be fair, houserules don't mean anything, It used to be ruled at a large tournament you couldnt re-embark on a nightscythe, despite it being explicitly allowed in the codex.
House rules are just that, house rules.

**FlingitNow**

Yksak wrote:
Or it doesnt.. try to imagine it... its very hard i know but just try it

That FAQ very explicitly allows you to move. If you can change flight mode you can move, check the changing flight mode rules. Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

**Yksak**

to me it means only one thing... i can play it at my FLGS, at my home and at any tournament the way i agree with and i think is right

thats all i care about

**FlingitNow**

It is going to be a weird tournament where everyone can move the turn they Deepstrike.

**Yksak**

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

FlingitNow wrote:

Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure

It clearly does

im out

**harkequin**

"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

Awesome, so it allows you movement after you arrive from deepstrike. Blood tithe is done at the start of the turn, the same time as reserves. So they follow the same restrictions.

Basically the issue comes from, Allowing BT to change modes -> means allowing it to move -> means allowing other deepstrikers to move.

The timing is the same, for most intents and purposes, reserved FMCs are the same as BTs.

**FlingitNow**

Yksak wrote:
"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

FlingitNow wrote:

Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure It clearly does im out

Yes it clearly does as it states that units that arrive at the start of the turn (in other words all reserves) get to change flight mode (in other words move).

**Tonberry7**

FlingitNow wrote:
Yksak wrote:
"A Daemon that is summoned with the Blood Tithe table at the beginning of the turn must enter the battlefield swooping. This takes place before “start of movement” effects would happen so the controlling player may then choose a new flight mode at the start of movement."

FlingitNow wrote:

Also remember this FAQ applies to ALL FMC that DS from reserve.

Yea sure It clearly does im out

Yes it clearly does as it states that units that arrive at the start of the turn (in other words all reserves) get to change flight mode (in other words move).

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

**BlackTalos**

I do like how this entire discussion is completely ignoring Tennet #2

"bigger tournaments" are know to invent rules opposite of what the RaW would suggest. For me, if anything, this new (Unofficial) FaQ proves that the real RaW is actually the "other option"...

**FlingitNow**

No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

**Tonberry7**

FlingitNow wrote:
No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

**FlingitNow**

Tonberry7 wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

It doesn't need to it says stuff that arrives at the start of the turn gets to move. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Is English your second language?

That FAQ means that all reserves get to move the turn they arrive and indeed swooping FMCs must move at least 12" after DSing.

**Tonberry7**

FlingitNow wrote:
Tonberry7 wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
No, that quote clearly refers specifically to blood tithe summons, not FMC from DS reserve. It could have been worded better but it's their FAQ and the intention is clearly to address some peoples confusion on this specifc matter. Claiming that the FAQ also applies to FMC coming from DS reserve is incorrect unless this is also explicitly stated in the FAQ, logical or not. If this is the first unofficial FAQ on the issue it also sets an interesting precedent.

No the FAQ says that because they arrive at the start of turn then they can change flight mode. Which is the same as saying everything that arrives from reserves can also move in the following movement phase as everything arrives at the start of the turn and changing flight mode requires moving. That is what the FAQ says.

No, you've just made the second part up. It doesn't mention reserves anywhere.

It doesn't need to it says stuff that arrives at the start of the turn gets to move. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Is English your second language?

That FAQ means that all reserves get to move the turn they arrive and indeed swooping FMCs must move at least 12" after DSing.

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

"Is English your second language?" I loved that, coming from yourself.

**Alcibiades**

I know this isn't RAW or even implied in the text, but I am 90% sure that the summoned Bloodthirster is supposed to show up on the ground.

I say this because the rules for flying critters are designed to represent something flying onto the battlefield. Which a summoned Bloodthirster is not doing. After all, isn't he literally bursting out of someone's body?

HIWPI is with him appearing on the ground.

**nosferatu1001**

He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

**FlingitNow**

No, it doesn't say they get to move either. It's saying that the summoned FMC arrives before the movement phase and can therefore elect to switch mode at the start of the movement phase. The purpose of the FAQ is to make clear that this is permissible (which it is) as a response to this specifc query. All your talk about reserves and moving has no merit or relevance because the FAQ is not a rule per se, and has no bearing on other rule queries.

So which is it. Does the FAQ allow you to move or does it not allow you to move because you claim both in that paragraph, remembering changing flight mode is done when you move so if you allow one you allow the other without a specific exception (which is not present in the FAQ).

**BlackTalos**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He literally bursts out, but then has to use the rules for deesptrike, so despite bursting out can still end up in reserves, or dead, or somewhere else entirely...

Can a summoned BT go into Ongoing Reserves? I do not have the book, but is it not one of those "any mishap" = removed or "does not scatter" types of Deep Strike?