I know it won't really do any good, but if we outline the serious imbalance with any other unit, and they get enough concerned emails reminding them what happened with fantasy and how many customers that lost them, do you think there is the slimmest chance they may actually discuss it amongst themselves? Or am I being naive? I mean this is so much further than serpent shields, knights and wraiths that it's beyond the pale, all of those had some effective counter for the points they cost (or lacked really serious damage output or range, like the wraiths) This WILL be the anvil that broke the camels back.
It's a desperate reaction but I really don't know what else to do. I, like many of you, have invested thousands and thousands of pounds in this hobby, I can't just walk away. But I can't see the competitive game being 40k anymore, I see it being The War in Heven. I have plenty of Necrons but that's not the point.
If you bought a 5 star time share and they reduced the standard to 3 stars without giving you the choice, you'd be a bit miffed right?
I really think people are overreacting, from what I've heard is that they only have a 4+ armor save so they are not invincible and 270pts. Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.
If you're going to send GW anything regarding a complaint, send it via snailmail. Email will simply get tossed/form responsed by Customer Service if its not a product issue. An actual letter is likely to mean more.
I'm still holding out hope that it'll be a balanced codex besides those units. I haven't seen the WK point cost, so I *might* be okay with playing against one at a 2k point value, but I'm hoping I can just flat out tell any Eldar player I am going to play against that I do not play against SL windriders. I can't see anyone in my area fielding more than 5-10 in their lists, and if they do mind swapping out for Shuriken Cannons for the same price (IMO much more balanced with 24" range and 1 less shot) I will just apologize politely and say my army is not equipped to deal with them.
I'm just gonna treat every unit of Windriders I see in the new edition like I would treat 2 wave serpents in the old one. Nothing will change really. It's really rare to see guys at my club go full competitive cheese, and if they do it's mostly against each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gmaleron wrote: I really think people are overreacting, from what I've heard is that they only have a 4+ armor save so they are not invincible and 270pts. Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.
I think it's relevant to point out that a Swiftclaw bike costs 20 points for 1 S4 shot at 24", 2 S4 shots at 12" from my Space Wolf Codex.
a Windrider bike costs 27 points, gets:
-Objective Secured
-36" Turbo boost rather than 24"
-4+ Jink Cover save
-4 S6 shots at 36"
-2d6 free movement in the assault phase
The space marine basically brings 1 point of toughness to the table and 7 points, in exchange for all that and more than quadruple the effective firepower.
Put it this way: What if the new Space Wolf book came out and Grey Hunters were 22 PPM, and their bolters were Assault 8. This is about on that scale.
Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.
Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.
They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.
Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAACTFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.
I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.
Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.
Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.
They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.
Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAACTFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.
I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.
The narrative of taking scatter lasers to the face.
Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.
Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.
They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.
Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAACTFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.
I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.
Players need to realise that it's actually perfectly balanced anyway and everyone's acting like the sky is falling apart no when we haven't even seen 'the whole picture'.
Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.
Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.
They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.
Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAACTFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.
I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.
Players need to realise that it's actually perfectly balanced anyway and everyone's acting like the sky is falling apart no when we haven't even seen 'the whole picture'.
The whole picture has already been shot by scatterlasers.
Well my army doesn't have many options to deal with stuff with so much fire power and movment. But what am realy worried about is not those 60 bikers list, which probably no one will play, but those made out of 20 jetbikes, some DE ally and pin point deep striking WG that blow up all my tanks and kill my order givers in one turn.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
It couldn't be any worse than what GW is charging us.
And I'm being serious when I say that.
I remember in 5th on these boards, JustDave wrote three fan-dexes that were better balanced internally and externally, offered more variety, better matched the fluff and theme, and was free.
One random guy on the internet.
GW has a huge budget, years of experience, and used to have some of the better talent (or at least theoretical access through financial means) for rules writing, not to mention a huge player base to tap into for feedback.
It hurts when I think about it.
Fortunately, Yak and other Dakkaites are making a 28mm sci-fi game. I'll have to read the fluff to see if my Tannenberg fit in the universe.
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
Well, in fairness, there have been a small handful of decent ideas and potential counters that could be heavily influenced by player actions and luck, but all of them are either super tailored and wouldn't fare well in a TAC environment, or use very specific units/formations from a small selection of books.
The likes of DA, BA, IG, and SoB will struggle to even last the game. Other codices are pigeon-holed into using only the best units to survive in arguably cheesy methods.
I can't take anyone seriously who thinks this is a good idea, healthy for the game, or worthy of the price tag GW offers.
If people are willing to keep playing for whatever reasons, more power to them. Some are fortunate to have a solid gaming group of close friends. For many more, this just hurts an already poor game, and makes tournaments, leagues, pick up games, and even fluffy scenarios, that much more unbalanced.
The obvious response to this post from people who are okay with this change will be to tell me to stop panicking/the sky isn't falling, or what have you. For the record, I'm passed the point of panic and worrying. This is mostly now just comical and sad. Sad that a universe I really enjoy with a model selection (both GW's and 3rd party) is being tainted by being attached to a poor game. That GW continues to ask for an inflated price, and people make the excuse that we just need to either adapt or fix them ourselves, making me the bad guy.
Oh, and I'll openly laugh at the next person who points out its ridiculous to quit because of this release. People aren't quitting because of this release. They're quitting for dozens of other reasons and releases that have built up. For some, this could be the straw the breaks their back. Some don't care. Some take the good with the bad (Skitarii are pretty cool, Knights have cool models, even the jetbikes look good, and finally in plastic), while others will finally give up after a pretty dramatic power creep these past two years.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.
It's not just the Jetbikes causing the problems. Against just those Scatterbikes I would agree. A wall of AV14 parked behind an ADL would present it significant problems. But now Eldar get D weapons on their Wraith crap. It's like the person writing this codex wanted it to kick the crap out of Imperial Guard.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.
What do people not get about the fact that Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can take other stuff alongside them? Leman Russ heavy list? Boom, enjoy my Fire Dragons. They will still have the points to counter your jetbike killers.
Apart from 36" range. That is huge. And rather than 'crying about it' we've been thinking of counters, they don't work when you compare the points, the maneuverability, the range and tge fact that eldar have wraithguard, WK, Fragons and lances galore, to say nothing of the new D weapons.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.
Except that your "counters" will be getting their faces shot off much more quickly.
TheCustomLime wrote: It's not just the Jetbikes causing the problems. Against just those Scatterbikes I would agree. A wall of AV14 parked behind an ADL would present it significant problems. But now Eldar get D weapons on their Wraith crap. It's like the person writing this codex wanted it to kick the crap out of Imperial Guard.
Exactly. Even if the D weapons turns out to be just on a 6 or whatever, it's not like there isn't other stuff in the Eldar list that can take out other things you bring against them.
Poly Ranger wrote: In all seriousness though, do you think if they got enough mail, be it email or snail, it might actually generate at least a conversation at GWHQ?
Probably not, they have invested time, money ect. into this and are expecting huge revenue from the slew of Jetbikes about to be purchased ($40.00 for x3 I believe) so its going to happen and stay that way regardless. There may be an FAQ in the future but don't hold your breath, why I am saying lamenting about is not going to solve anything. And in regards to the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring to the table, they already CAN in the form of Wraithguard and Wraithknights and again there not as scary as people are making them out to be. Freaking out over a book that has not even been released and going off only a small piece of known information is not going to help at all in the slightest. Wait to the book drops and then you can debate about the topic with the complete picture, I for one am not worried with both my Tau and Imperial Guard and look forward to the challenges the new book will bring.
It is not worth it, because GW doesn't not care what you think. Don't get me wrong, GW doesn't care what I think either.
40k is just big cash machine for them. Tweak the rules, sell them with a new hardcover for a higher price. Take units out of one book and sell them in another for the same price. Invalidate army builds every few years so the stupid nerds buying the product (not my personal opinion, but it seems to be what GW thinks given the CHS court case) feel compelled to buy a whole new army. And they'll do it with pride too, and argue against anything negative people could say of GW, because GW cares very deeply about their game. That's why they call themselves a game company...well, at least *Games* is in the name...sorta an MTV thing going on...
GW, like most other businesses, cares about one thing: making money. Their focus tends to be on the short-term, because as far as they seem to believe customers come in for a while, spend their money and go. Again going back to the CHS case, they don't think people really play the game anyway- just buy all the pretty miniatures and talk about how kewl they are. The only time they have truly made a change is what we see going on with WHFB, and that was from a loss of market share.
Although maybe these scatbikes are part of a new plan to raise their dwindling revenue, by turning game inflation up to 11, they can extract every dollars those nitwit-I mean, collectors- will offer up. I realize this last bit is quite tinfoil-ish, but if you go back and read about TLSR's demise and the level of contempt the company's owner had for its customers, it really could be a possibility.
Cieged wrote: The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...
It's easy to be slightly upset when you play at least semi-competitively for over a decade, and then the designer who thinks of eldar as his personal baby writes a rule book that says "on a 2+, you win."
It's like they hate the idea of the game being balanced and want to make it where you HAVE to make some custom scenario or something for some armies to be able to stand on even footing.
One of our local eldar players was excited for the new dex. He hasn't gotten to play them for over a year, and he had to start a 2nd army just to play. I told him about the bikes yesterday, and he was incredibly disappointed.
Cieged wrote: The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...
Maybe people actually care about some semblance of balance in the game they play?
Man it really pisses me off how often genuine concerns about the game are dismissed as just 'complaining' or 'whining', or, 'it's always been like that'...
Eldar jet bikes: +1 toughness, relentless, 3+ armor, 3+ jink, 12" movement, 24" flat-out, 2d6 jump move in assault phase, tl 12" s4 bladestorm but it's irrelevant cause they're gona be replaced with a 4-shot s6 ap6 36" gun or 4-shot s5 ap5(?)bladestorm 36". Bladestorm is ap2 on a 6 to-wound - basically, rending without +d3 to armor pen.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.
Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.
In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.
Well, it might be a good idea. Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause. Basically, everything people want is special weapons limitations for bikes and no ranged S: D. It's no big deal to edit a few sentences to not lose profit on rage-quitters and people who'd hold on buying anything for fear of playing against new eldar.
What about we compose a group letter with sensible arguements and sign it up? Cause letters like: "Dear GW, i hate you and i'm gona eat your children because eldar" - won't lead to desired effect.
koooaei wrote: Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause.
If GW paid attention to customer complaints you'd end up with a completely different company and a completely different game.
Well, haven't they changed rules to get rid of fish of fury and 6-th taudar?
Besides, we constantly see tweaks on things that people complained about the most. Like cron flying spam and bargelords. Ork mob rule for smaller units and viability of tankbustas. They do screw up occasionally but who doesn't?
koooaei wrote: Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause.
If GW paid attention to customer complaints you'd end up with a completely different company and a completely different game.
Well, haven't they changed rules to get rid of fish of fury and 6-th taudar?
Besides, we constantly see tweaks on things that people complained about the most. Like cron flying spam and bargelords. Ork mob rule for smaller units and viability of tankbustas. They do screw up occasionally but who doesn't?
They screw up constantly however in ways that everyone often sees even before the books hit the shelves (I still remember the initial Vendetta rumors in 2009 and people saying "oh that can't be right"), and then take literally years to fix it because they refuse to do any changes to printed materials without a full release, unlike every other game company that doesn't seem to have any issues with Errata.
Yeah. If anything GW does seem to listen a whole lot to the community about the most commonly complained about units. On the one hand I doubt they would deploy a nerf in a FAQ, but when you look at the necron codex, the things people were constantly complaining about were the things that got hit. Such as every unit with a tesla destructor, mss, wraiths with destroyer lord. Now, wraiths got positive adjustments as well, and the codex is as strong as ever even if annihilation barges got trashed.
So, sending a letter to GW regarding eldar jetbikes, will it do any good? I would guess that the rules are already printed, and they will not balance through a FAQ. We are likely stuck with the absurdity until a new codex or edition tweaks the rules. But complaining a lot about them will make sure that they eventually get fixed since GW seem to balance by popular opinion when it comes to nerfing things. Eventually may in this case be more than two years.
For my local meta this probably means eldar will be nigh unplayable since their armies will rack up too much comp score, so nothing new under the sun. The eldar codex will be brokenly unfair and get tweaked out of the competitive scene. While not much of a serious tournament player myself, the competitive ruleset is widely adapted even for casual games as long as you do not play in a GW store.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
If GW moves ASM to troop slot and give everyone of the unit Assault 3 Plasma gun without overheat, we may adapt. Don't forget the D-range weapon and Gargantuan Creature of Eldar. After Dreadnought, Dreadknight, Stormtalon and so on receive D-range weapon, we definitely can!
Assuming the new WD leaks are the real deal, and not a bunch of nonsesne (as in, writers had no idea of actual rules, or the entire WD is a fake to find a leak or something) I'd say that more than I'm tempted to mail them about the windrider spesifically, I'm tempted to start a pentition for them to fire their entire rules team.
Seriously. a new eldar codex is mostly copy-paste with some fixes in it. how hard can it be?
I'm not claiming to be an expect, but given the timeframe and quality of new releases-I alone could pump out better rules than their entire team combined had it actually been my job.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.
Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.
In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.
I guarantee that if I picked up that Eldar army, I would table your BA. It's very difficult for anyone to beat me with BA, and with a list like that, it would be a massacre.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.
Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.
In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.
I guarantee that if I picked up that Eldar army, I would table your BA. It's very difficult for anyone to beat me with BA, and with a list like that, it would be a massacre.
I'd love to see a battle report of BA versus an Eldar army with those leaked rules. It would be hilarious in its one-sided-ness. D-cannons and super bikes everywhere. Wave Serpents too.
I'm more willing to bet that the Jetbike sprues were developed and finished well before the new rules were written up... hence, with every bike able to take an upgrade already in place on the sprues, the rules were basically forced in to the unit entry regardless of whether anyone thought a unit of 10 fast moving heavy weapons was a "good idea" or not.
Are they likely undercosted? Almost certainly. Are 40-60 Scatterbikes going to auto-win every single tournament from here on out? Of course not!
The 'sky is falling' crowd seem to put forward this notion that suddenly Eldar armies are going to be throwing out highly accurate 160/S6 shots a turn...
while Jinking for a 3++ save...
and still fielding 3-4+ Serpents filled with Fire Dragons & Wraiths galore...
with Farseers always rolling up Guide/Misfortune/Fortune for their powers...
Warlocks always having the perfect power in support despite being Lv1 psykers...
and those 40-60 bikes will always be able to comfortably zip around, make their shots, and then dive back into magical LoS blocking terrain and never take a single shot in return...
Something about the above just doesn't seem plausible for some reason, but then, maybe I'm just some dumb White Knight, TFGWaaC's Eldar player? (which would be hilarious, considering my main army is Tzeentch Daemons + CSM's. )
Yeah sure obviously they rarely have to jink unless you manage to get lots of ap3 close to them, which in itself is a rough cookie given 36" range, 12" movement and JSJ. Sometimes when gak looks broken, it's simply broken. They are insanely mobile and shoot really hard. And cheap enough to warrant including anti tank. When you outrange and outrun most things that could threaten you, you have a define advantage.
Are they likely undercosted? Almost certainly. Are 40-60 Scatterbikes going to auto-win every single tournament from here on out? Of course not!
The 'sky is falling' crowd seem to put forward this notion that suddenly Eldar armies are going to be throwing out highly accurate 160/S6 shots a turn...
while Jinking for a 3++ save...
and still fielding 3-4+ Serpents filled with Fire Dragons & Wraiths galore...
with Farseers always rolling up Guide/Misfortune/Fortune for their powers...
Warlocks always having the perfect power in support despite being Lv1 psykers...
and those 40-60 bikes will always be able to comfortably zip around, make their shots, and then dive back into magical LoS blocking terrain and never take a single shot in return...
What point value are we considering. ~1800?
Now imagine 40 scatter bikes, that takes up a little more than half of the 1800, still leaving 750 for AT and HQ. Now for a start just ignore the movement and jink. From turn one they can put out 160 shots. Just as a gunline, 36" range 160 shots. What can touch them in any real way until turn 2-3? A lot of people are poiting to their fragility, but 40 meq bodies are not weak, certainly not at 36" range.
The ability to move 12" and still fire, then another 2d6, and to jink is just gravy on the first few turns. It's When things start to close that it matters. But what is going to be closing? What can weather that amount of firepower.
Losing track of all these Eldar jetbike threads.....storm in a teacup. We've seen this time and time and time again when an uber new unit gets released or GW bump an old one.
Adapt and evolve tactics accordingly.
koooaei wrote: Well, it might be a good idea. Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause. Basically, everything people want is special weapons limitations for bikes and no ranged S: D. It's no big deal to edit a few sentences to not lose profit on rage-quitters and people who'd hold on buying anything for fear of playing against new eldar.
Sadly they'll probably make more money out of all the people who want to buy the jetbikes than they'll lose from people quitting.
Your suggestions on my 100 footslogging orkses, stormboyz and kommandoes adapting to scatmen that statistically shoot them down in 2 turns even in good cover being completely uncatchable and out of range.
And don't tell me i've got a bad list or something - it goes toe to toe with the most powerful stuff so far cause it utilises positioning, board controle and area denial tools while being numerous enough to hold ground.
Of course people are not happy that one badly designed unit automatically invalidates their entire favorite army and that they have to "adapt and evolve" - means buy tons of stuff they might not particularly like to specifically counter (probably) this one unit.
It boils down to Pay-To-Win. And it leads to people wanting to buy even less stuff instead. It just usually works the opposite way.
I for one am not worried with both my Tau and Imperial Guard and look forward to the challenges the new book will bring.
Hahaha, that made me laugh so hard. Sorry man
Automatically Appended Next Post: And obviously Ork are no match for this kind of madness. I gladly sold mine 1 week ago(different reason, but that new upcoming codex tell me I did the right choice lol)
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm more willing to bet that the Jetbike sprues were developed and finished well before the new rules were written up... hence, with every bike able to take an upgrade already in place on the sprues, the rules were basically forced in to the unit entry regardless of whether anyone thought a unit of 10 fast moving heavy weapons was a "good idea" or not.
Are they likely undercosted? Almost certainly. Are 40-60 Scatterbikes going to auto-win every single tournament from here on out? Of course not!
The 'sky is falling' crowd seem to put forward this notion that suddenly Eldar armies are going to be throwing out highly accurate 160/S6 shots a turn...
while Jinking for a 3++ save...
and still fielding 3-4+ Serpents filled with Fire Dragons & Wraiths galore...
with Farseers always rolling up Guide/Misfortune/Fortune for their powers...
Warlocks always having the perfect power in support despite being Lv1 psykers...
and those 40-60 bikes will always be able to comfortably zip around, make their shots, and then dive back into magical LoS blocking terrain and never take a single shot in return...
Something about the above just doesn't seem plausible for some reason, but then, maybe I'm just some dumb White Knight, TFGWaaC's Eldar player? (which would be hilarious, considering my main army is Tzeentch Daemons + CSM's. )
Even if it WAS forced on the rules team to give the option for a special on each, they could easily modify the gun costs, or the UNIT ITSELF so the rules would not be so slowed.
But as they are eldar-special treatment. every race have bikes give +1T, eldars? +1T and +2 to armor. just like they are the only ones with meaningful stat boost for their 10 point sarges, so they get bikes that do far more. pay less, get more.
No reason why a flimsy eldar NON SOLDIER (guardians are MILITIA. bakers and musicians-not soldiers) has a statline that will embarrass a SM, and the equipment to embarrass a tau battlesuit.
Nothing on the guardian jetbike makes sense, and it was overpowered as it is, but simply overshadowed by just how much MORE overpowered the WS was. the new added option of infinite special guns is insult to injury.
And no, they do not jink for a 3++, they already have a 3+, they simply has the OPTION to jink for a 3++.on top of JSJ that guardes them further.
Not that they need to bother guarding themselves, given that they will be 3 man squads spammed. no reason to bother with bigger teams now.
They are still fielding FD in WS and wraiths because the bikes are so damn cheap you CAN do so. you can pack 6 units of 6 in under 1000 points. that's 36 scatter lasers for 144 S6 shots. taking any more than that is pointless-anything that CAN die to scatterlasers, is dead by now.
Ditto on farseers. cheap enough for what they accomplish-not that they are really needed given that jetbikes hit often enough on their own and cheap enough to not worth defensive powers. just taking them as minimal HQ requirements.
Warlocks? I don't even care for them. nor bother for them.
And zipping around with ease taking no shots-nobody says that. but they won't take nearly enough given how much they dish out, and how little they cost.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Anything with Alpha-Strike capabilities will hurt Jetbikes. Drop Pods full of special weapons will murder them - Command Squads especially so. Any kind of Barrage weapon is also a serious threat, such as Wyverns and Thunderfires.
Other Jetbikes such as Dark Eldar, Clowns & Screamers will eat Kraftworld bikes in combat with ease. Necrons versions can give their guns Ignores Cover and have Res Protocols to boot. (typically on a 4+ for giggles.)
Orks, Sisters & Grey Knights will probably have the most problems, (Orks especially so due to lack of allies), with Tyranids likely needing to rely even more so on Dakka Flyrants & their new Pods. Everyone else has readily accessible viable counters.
Yes, Eldar bikes are yet another 'too good' unit, but they're hardly the worst offenders, nor are they as comically game breaking as things like 60-80 man Seer Congresses, Siren Lords, Durp Quake, etc...
They're flat out bonkers in terms of movement and their potential shooting output, but they fold like a wet paper bag in assaults, nor can they tackle av13/14 without help. That's a weakness right there btw!
The Formation rule apparently gives a one use per game ability to give the Shred rule to all Shuriken weaponry in the squad. So if they load up on Scatlas, they're no longer Obsec, and they get 0 Formation bonus out of the bikes.
The Formation also includes some additional 'taxes' such as being forced to take a Vyper squadron, which Eldar players consider to be quite mediocre on the whole. (not saying Vypers are crap, but it is still a tax.)
So rather than the eldar Viper being used for this kind of heavy weapon, we get to lump it on a normal jetbike?
Can Marines mount plasma cannons, heavy-bolters and multi-meltas so I do not need my attack bikes any more?
Truly a break from how things were usually fielded.
So by the look of things I have the following options:
1) Quietly cry in a corner and then play my obviously inferior force because I am a fluff monkey.
2) Rage quit because GW has no clue!!!
3) Buy a new Eldar force with jet bikes right away!!!!
4) Vow never to play Eldar again.
This covers it ok?
I think I will pick #1 since I do tend to like drama.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Anything with Alpha-Strike capabilities will hurt Jetbikes. Drop Pods full of special weapons will murder them - Command Squads especially so. Any kind of Barrage weapon is also a serious threat, such as Wyverns and Thunderfires.
Other Jetbikes such as Dark Eldar, Clowns & Screamers will eat Kraftworld bikes in combat with ease. Necrons versions can give their guns Ignores Cover and have Res Protocols to boot. (typically on a 4+ for giggles.)
Orks, Sisters & Grey Knights will probably have the most problems, (Orks especially so due to lack of allies), with Tyranids likely needing to rely even more so on Dakka Flyrants & their new Pods. Everyone else has readily accessible viable counters.
Yes, Eldar bikes are yet another 'too good' unit, but they're hardly the worst offenders, nor are they as comically game breaking as things like 60-80 man Seer Congresses, Siren Lords, Durp Quake, etc...
They're flat out bonkers in terms of movement and their potential shooting output, but they fold like a wet paper bag in assaults, nor can they tackle av13/14 without help. That's a weakness right there btw!
The Formation rule apparently gives a one use per game ability to give the Shred rule to all Shuriken weaponry in the squad. So if they load up on Scatlas, they're no longer Obsec, and they get 0 Formation bonus out of the bikes.
The Formation also includes some additional 'taxes' such as being forced to take a Vyper squadron, which Eldar players consider to be quite mediocre on the whole. (not saying Vypers are crap, but it is still a tax.)
Weakness in melee only matters if the unit can be caught. AV13+ can be handled elsewhere as everything else can be shot. This isn't something where the only things are Jetbikes. The problem is that all the weaknesses are easily covered.
Also CAD is going to be the way to go. OS and no taxes outweighs the benefit of Shred on Shuriken stuff when either mass fire or the AT takes care of it.
Come on, not even YOU can defend this gak, 626.
The new jetbikes look like sharks, sharks with lasers strapped to their heads...(bellies).
Seriously, I am glad to see these new models, having seen a picture of something like them years back. But how many scatter lasers?
Someone posted a suggestion about a physical letter. I agree. If you have a concern that can be demonstrated by comparing stats versus points costs, stuff like that, demonstrate it. Otherwise, the Eldar have apparently been to Craftworld Black Library and found a trove of weapons/wraithbone tech or what not. If it can be shown across the board that these stand out, in a class by themselves, I think they will listen. Otherwise, I think the expectation will be: How are you going to deal with them? (And I really wonder if people use a good amount of terrain). I would also include how they stand out in each category: models fielded in squadrons, models fielding heavy weapons, the troops category, etc. Didn't they use to be Fast Attack? I hope it goes well because no one wants to win or lose a lop-sided game. I'm not saying it is, but if demonstrated that it is, well then, something should be done.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Anything with Alpha-Strike capabilities will hurt Jetbikes. Drop Pods full of special weapons will murder them - Command Squads especially so. Any kind of Barrage weapon is also a serious threat, such as Wyverns and Thunderfires.
Other Jetbikes such as Dark Eldar, Clowns & Screamers will eat Kraftworld bikes in combat with ease. Necrons versions can give their guns Ignores Cover and have Res Protocols to boot. (typically on a 4+ for giggles.)
Orks, Sisters & Grey Knights will probably have the most problems, (Orks especially so due to lack of allies), with Tyranids likely needing to rely even more so on Dakka Flyrants & their new Pods. Everyone else has readily accessible viable counters.
Yes, Eldar bikes are yet another 'too good' unit, but they're hardly the worst offenders, nor are they as comically game breaking as things like 60-80 man Seer Congresses, Siren Lords, Durp Quake, etc...
They're flat out bonkers in terms of movement and their potential shooting output, but they fold like a wet paper bag in assaults, nor can they tackle av13/14 without help. That's a weakness right there btw!
The Formation rule apparently gives a one use per game ability to give the Shred rule to all Shuriken weaponry in the squad. So if they load up on Scatlas, they're no longer Obsec, and they get 0 Formation bonus out of the bikes.
The Formation also includes some additional 'taxes' such as being forced to take a Vyper squadron, which Eldar players consider to be quite mediocre on the whole. (not saying Vypers are crap, but it is still a tax.)
Weakness in melee only matters if the unit can be caught. AV13+ can be handled elsewhere as everything else can be shot. This isn't something where the only things are Jetbikes. The problem is that all the weaknesses are easily covered.
Also CAD is going to be the way to go. OS and no taxes outweighs the benefit of Shred on Shuriken stuff when either mass fire or the AT takes care of it.
Come on, not even YOU can defend this gak, 626.
I'm not defending it as being balanced, I just don't think it's worth completely losing my gak over as there are definite holes to be exploited, especially against the bikes themselves.
A lot of the Chicken Littleing is banging on about how Eldar will now field 40-60 Scatlas bikes, (1080 - 1620pts), plus at least one unit of Wraithguard in a Serpent, (currently 275pts minimum), plus Dragons in a Serpent, (currently 225pts minimum), AND still field a Wraithknight or two, (295 x2 minimum)...
And that's not counting any HQ's yet!
They won't get all that in a 'normal' list. Likely they'll now get a pair of MSU bike squads, plus a single large squad, and then fill out with HQ's plus a smattering of other things.
It'll be very, very good, with the new Jetbikes joining the ranks of other 'too good' units, but Eldar lists won't suddenly be able to do absolutely everything all at the same time, nor will they suddenly end the Tournament circuit. (in fact, being LoW, Wraithknights will likely become 0-1 as don't most events limit LoW slots to begin with?)
Poly Ranger wrote: I know it won't really do any good, but if we outline the serious imbalance with any other unit, and they get enough concerned emails reminding them what happened with fantasy and how many customers that lost them, do you think there is the slimmest chance they may actually discuss it amongst themselves? Or am I being naive? I mean this is so much further than serpent shields, knights and wraiths that it's beyond the pale, all of those had some effective counter for the points they cost (or lacked really serious damage output or range, like the wraiths) This WILL be the anvil that broke the camels back.
It's a desperate reaction but I really don't know what else to do. I, like many of you, have invested thousands and thousands of pounds in this hobby, I can't just walk away. But I can't see the competitive game being 40k anymore, I see it being The War in Heven. I have plenty of Necrons but that's not the point.
If you bought a 5 star time share and they reduced the standard to 3 stars without giving you the choice, you'd be a bit miffed right?
This is what I sent them, entitled "Great Job GW"
You guys have honestly done a great job. The game is now balanced, the fanbase is restored, and prices are down to boot!
Ha thats a joke. Eldar will now dominate all competitive play style. Entire threads are devoted to how bad and terrible your company is at producing rules. Whole forums are pooling together to stop playing 40k. And I agree. Its gone to far. Its been gone to far for much to long. 1) Your bundles. Total trash. No discount. If you wanted to support your fan base (and your economic benefit I might add) then you would offer a 10-15% discount. 2) your prices are insane. Did you know by lowering prices, more people would want to join, play, and pay for 40k? Did you know the biggest turn off for 40k is the price (second being the rules)? 3) Your rules. No balance. Listen to the community. Your balance is terrible. Sisters of Battle, chaos space marines, space wolves, blood angels, and dark eldar are all overwhelmingly underpowered compared to the top powerhouses of 40k. 4) Have some interaction with fanbase. You seem distant and unconnected, which you are, but this makes your fan base callous to you and disprove of what you do.
The moneysheeps will run out eventually GamesWorkshop. And when you do we will all laugh.
As for me I have given up 40k. Thanks for the pain gdubs.
I wish I had a video of how hard they laughed at that.
GW is a plane in a nose dive. You have a parachute under your seat. You can jump and leave it all behind or sit quietly and hope they pull it out. What you don't have the option of doing is taking the stick and saving it. Get out if you don't like it, I did, or put your hands up and try and say WEEEE! Like you mean it.
Poly Ranger wrote: I know it won't really do any good, but if we outline the serious imbalance with any other unit, and they get enough concerned emails reminding them what happened with fantasy and how many customers that lost them, do you think there is the slimmest chance they may actually discuss it amongst themselves? Or am I being naive? I mean this is so much further than serpent shields, knights and wraiths that it's beyond the pale, all of those had some effective counter for the points they cost (or lacked really serious damage output or range, like the wraiths) This WILL be the anvil that broke the camels back.
It's a desperate reaction but I really don't know what else to do. I, like many of you, have invested thousands and thousands of pounds in this hobby, I can't just walk away. But I can't see the competitive game being 40k anymore, I see it being The War in Heven. I have plenty of Necrons but that's not the point.
If you bought a 5 star time share and they reduced the standard to 3 stars without giving you the choice, you'd be a bit miffed right?
This is what I sent them, entitled "Great Job GW"
You guys have honestly done a great job. The game is now balanced, the fanbase is restored, and prices are down to boot!
Ha thats a joke. Eldar will now dominate all competitive play style. Entire threads are devoted to how bad and terrible your company is at producing rules. Whole forums are pooling together to stop playing 40k. And I agree. Its gone to far. Its been gone to far for much to long. 1) Your bundles. Total trash. No discount. If you wanted to support your fan base (and your economic benefit I might add) then you would offer a 10-15% discount. 2) your prices are insane. Did you know by lowering prices, more people would want to join, play, and pay for 40k? Did you know the biggest turn off for 40k is the price (second being the rules)? 3) Your rules. No balance. Listen to the community. Your balance is terrible. Sisters of Battle, chaos space marines, space wolves, blood angels, and dark eldar are all overwhelmingly underpowered compared to the top powerhouses of 40k. 4) Have some interaction with fanbase. You seem distant and unconnected, which you are, but this makes your fan base callous to you and disprove of what you do.
The moneysheeps will run out eventually GamesWorkshop. And when you do we will all laugh.
As for me I have given up 40k. Thanks for the pain gdubs.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Anything with Alpha-Strike capabilities will hurt Jetbikes. Drop Pods full of special weapons will murder them - Command Squads especially so. Any kind of Barrage weapon is also a serious threat, such as Wyverns and Thunderfires.
Other Jetbikes such as Dark Eldar, Clowns & Screamers will eat Kraftworld bikes in combat with ease. Necrons versions can give their guns Ignores Cover and have Res Protocols to boot. (typically on a 4+ for giggles.)
Orks, Sisters & Grey Knights will probably have the most problems, (Orks especially so due to lack of allies), with Tyranids likely needing to rely even more so on Dakka Flyrants & their new Pods. Everyone else has readily accessible viable counters.
Yes, Eldar bikes are yet another 'too good' unit, but they're hardly the worst offenders, nor are they as comically game breaking as things like 60-80 man Seer Congresses, Siren Lords, Durp Quake, etc...
They're flat out bonkers in terms of movement and their potential shooting output, but they fold like a wet paper bag in assaults, nor can they tackle av13/14 without help. That's a weakness right there btw!
The Formation rule apparently gives a one use per game ability to give the Shred rule to all Shuriken weaponry in the squad. So if they load up on Scatlas, they're no longer Obsec, and they get 0 Formation bonus out of the bikes.
The Formation also includes some additional 'taxes' such as being forced to take a Vyper squadron, which Eldar players consider to be quite mediocre on the whole. (not saying Vypers are crap, but it is still a tax.)
Weakness in melee only matters if the unit can be caught. AV13+ can be handled elsewhere as everything else can be shot. This isn't something where the only things are Jetbikes. The problem is that all the weaknesses are easily covered.
Also CAD is going to be the way to go. OS and no taxes outweighs the benefit of Shred on Shuriken stuff when either mass fire or the AT takes care of it.
Come on, not even YOU can defend this gak, 626.
I'm not defending it as being balanced, I just don't think it's worth completely losing my gak over as there are definite holes to be exploited, especially against the bikes themselves.
A lot of the Chicken Littleing is banging on about how Eldar will now field 40-60 Scatlas bikes, (1080 - 1620pts), plus at least one unit of Wraithguard in a Serpent, (currently 275pts minimum), plus Dragons in a Serpent, (currently 225pts minimum), AND still field a Wraithknight or two, (295 x2 minimum)...
And that's not counting any HQ's yet!
They won't get all that in a 'normal' list. Likely they'll now get a pair of MSU bike squads, plus a single large squad, and then fill out with HQ's plus a smattering of other things.
It'll be very, very good, with the new Jetbikes joining the ranks of other 'too good' units, but Eldar lists won't suddenly be able to do absolutely everything all at the same time, nor will they suddenly end the Tournament circuit. (in fact, being LoW, Wraithknights will likely become 0-1 as don't most events limit LoW slots to begin with?)
They won't NEED 40 of them. 30-36 is going to be less than 1000 points. In a normal competitive game setting (1850) they just need to have dedicated AT, since the volume of S6 shots is going to take care of everything else. Easily allied in with Dark Eldar (someone made mention of WWP Archon + the new Wraithguard. *Shudders*). It isn't hard to fill that specific gap, and the people suggesting Land Raiders as a hard counter are really not thinking. At all. HQ will just be a minor tax at that point really.
BoomWolf wrote: Yaknow. 7th was petty damn good balance wise so far. Even Necrons were not too bad.
But now that I know the gun still has that range, power and shots - it's outright ridiculous and every intern should be able to see it...
Here is to hoping WD got something seriously wrong.
Not too bad? Necrons were not too bad! The +4 reanimation makes charging zerkers in to a warrior squad go exactly like this, "So, my LR is right in his face and the zerkers are in it so should I assault the warriors? No to risky, Ill kill every single one and then they will just get back up or maybe they won't TOO MUCH RANDOM FOR MEEEEEE!" To get back on topic, I'm going to wait till it is released. For all we know jet bikes could become the new chosen, good, but WAAAAYY to expensive for what they do.
SAD Games Workshop Nerfed the Ork Dakkajet for firing 9 str 6 shots then on a waagh turn only dropping 18 shots to 9 shots and 12 shots on a waagh turn ..(so for the same 270 points thats two dakkjets) that die far easier than jetbikes do ...
DO they not learn
GW is a plane in a nose dive. You have a parachute under your seat. You can jump and leave it all behind or sit quietly and hope they pull it out. What you don't have the option of doing is taking the stick and saving it. Get out if you don't like it, I did, or put your hands up and try and say WEEEE! Like you mean it.
Pretty much this. Although you missed the 3rd option: do both. Get out, then put your hands up and say WEEE!!! as the plane dives ever deeper, and truly enjoy it.
Yes, the jetbike lists will be beatable.
But they will not be fair. at all.
Nothing about the jetbikes is fair, or balanced.
They cost too little, do too much, have no meaningful weakness to speak of, useful against everything and anyone, no limitations on how much you can bring, not even "tax" of having to bring other things with it.
Its pisspoor design, that showed zero effort on the rule team's side.
They have ONE job, so they need to do it. because honestly, I have no idea why they are getting paid if this is the quality of their work.
And that's before we know what further buffs the windrider formation gives.
Anything with Alpha-Strike capabilities will hurt Jetbikes. Drop Pods full of special weapons will murder them - Command Squads especially so. Any kind of Barrage weapon is also a serious threat, such as Wyverns and Thunderfires.
Other Jetbikes such as Dark Eldar, Clowns & Screamers will eat Kraftworld bikes in combat with ease. Necrons versions can give their guns Ignores Cover and have Res Protocols to boot. (typically on a 4+ for giggles.)
Orks, Sisters & Grey Knights will probably have the most problems, (Orks especially so due to lack of allies), with Tyranids likely needing to rely even more so on Dakka Flyrants & their new Pods. Everyone else has readily accessible viable counters.
Yes, Eldar bikes are yet another 'too good' unit, but they're hardly the worst offenders, nor are they as comically game breaking as things like 60-80 man Seer Congresses, Siren Lords, Durp Quake, etc...
They're flat out bonkers in terms of movement and their potential shooting output, but they fold like a wet paper bag in assaults, nor can they tackle av13/14 without help. That's a weakness right there btw!
The Formation rule apparently gives a one use per game ability to give the Shred rule to all Shuriken weaponry in the squad. So if they load up on Scatlas, they're no longer Obsec, and they get 0 Formation bonus out of the bikes.
The Formation also includes some additional 'taxes' such as being forced to take a Vyper squadron, which Eldar players consider to be quite mediocre on the whole. (not saying Vypers are crap, but it is still a tax.)
What does loading up on scatter lasers have to do with being obsec? Also, you seem to have it backwards. Taking the formation and loading up on shuriken weapons is what makes you lose obsec. Taking a CAD full of scatter bikes is what gives you obsec and how cheesy players are going to play this list 99.9% of the time. No vyper tax for gaining shred on weapons you don't take anyway and you keep obsec.
GW is a plane in a nose dive. You have a parachute under your seat. You can jump and leave it all behind or sit quietly and hope they pull it out. What you don't have the option of doing is taking the stick and saving it. Get out if you don't like it, I did, or put your hands up and try and say WEEEE! Like you mean it.
Pretty much this. Although you missed the 3rd option: do both. Get out, then put your hands up and say WEEE!!! as the plane dives ever deeper, and truly enjoy it.
Oh, that's what I'm doing, by reading all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the latest thing from GW. Now it's off to play Infinity!
Wouldnt that help GW. You already bought their stuff and if you throw your army at them, the secondery market gets smaller. If enough people did that, more people would have to buy their armies directly from GW. Seems likea win/win situation for GW.
GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
MWHistorian wrote: GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
That's one lousy attitude.
The game can be easily fixed, if fact, so easily that most things can be FAQed/errataed into their proper place.
Everything that is "broken" is the direct result of a handful of balance issues. beyond that the new formations-type armies are actually a step upwards, as they reduce spamability. from there to getting things done right, its a short path.
After all, all issues nowdays are unit-spesific. a buff here, a nerf there-all within the proper places and the proper amount-and the game will be rock solid.
MWHistorian wrote: GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
That's one lousy attitude.
The game can be easily fixed, if fact, so easily that most things can be FAQed/errataed into their proper place.
Everything that is "broken" is the direct result of a handful of balance issues. beyond that the new formations-type armies are actually a step upwards, as they reduce spamability. from there to getting things done right, its a short path.
After all, all issues nowdays are unit-spesific. a buff here, a nerf there-all within the proper places and the proper amount-and the game will be rock solid.
gmaleron wrote: I really think people are overreacting, from what I've heard is that they only have a 4+ armor save so they are not invincible and 270pts. Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.
3+ armour still, and its more so the multiple small units of them will be interesting, 135pts for 5 bikes and 20 s6 shots isn't bad at all.
Although, I'm very used to seeing this reaction to new releases (which may very well be warranted in this case from what I'm hearing of the new Eldar rules), it is unlikely that GW is actually too concerned. Nothing is overpowered, since you can just take them as allies and enjoy your own taste of the flavor of the month. Making unbalanced units that could find their way into the armies of those who don't only play Eldar may be the goal. Of course, none of us truly know the thought process of the designers but this is something that occurred to me.
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
gmaleron wrote: Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.
We all need to adapt harder!
In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...
And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt
How are Eldar on the brink of extinction again? With this kind of hardware they ought to be lining up to have their photo taken on the Golden Throne.
Sadly, I don't think complaints will be listened to. Write a letter by all means (that way at least you've done something), but if they cared to test the rules something like this probably wouldn't have got past the playtesting stage in the first place.
MWHistorian wrote: GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
That's one lousy attitude.
The game can be easily fixed, if fact, so easily that most things can be FAQed/errataed into their proper place.
Everything that is "broken" is the direct result of a handful of balance issues. beyond that the new formations-type armies are actually a step upwards, as they reduce spamability. from there to getting things done right, its a short path.
After all, all issues nowdays are unit-spesific. a buff here, a nerf there-all within the proper places and the proper amount-and the game will be rock solid.
That may be true, but my point is that GW wont make those changes. You wishing that they would won't change the kind of company they are. And in the meantime while you wait for the unlikely, go try the numerous other games because they're actually really fun.
MWHistorian wrote: GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
That's one lousy attitude.
The game can be easily fixed, if fact, so easily that most things can be FAQed/errataed into their proper place.
Everything that is "broken" is the direct result of a handful of balance issues. beyond that the new formations-type armies are actually a step upwards, as they reduce spamability. from there to getting things done right, its a short path.
After all, all issues nowdays are unit-spesific. a buff here, a nerf there-all within the proper places and the proper amount-and the game will be rock solid.
It's the pragmatic look, the correct attitude.
The rules themselves allow spammability in multiple CADs alone, let one unbound.
The rules, as a game, are a failure. Narratives are for RPGs. Not opponent based strategy games. It requires a complete paradigm shift in the writing staff and a new way to play. Given the glut of units that requires balance, they'd be better making a lower point, two list format with scenarios that favor tactical play (meaning games are scoring based, not turn limited).
Games Workshop is unable to do this with their current business model. Codecis are inefficient, mess with army composition in each release, and are costly for the player. It's better to do what every other game does and slowly release books with splashes for each faction versus rewriting entire books every time. By doing the latter, we are getting these higher retail cost, lower value books losing features (artwork, useful appendices, recycled fluff) that just play "which unit is good/sucks" roulette.
Could this all change? Yes. But we have no evidence contrary. Avoiding the sunk cost fallacy and bailing out for anyone frustrated is the smart thing to do. Spending extra time to fix the already most expensive game on the market is asinine. You're actively admitting to buying an inferior product for the highest market cost when you do so.
This is just a continuation of a systemic problem where "balance" appears to be not addressed in a methodical way or is prone to interference.
Appropriate points to capability ratio would be nice, never mind what "buffs" the unit would be exposed to expand capability even further.
I think it has not been made clear in GW's mind that anything they could write would do anything to discourage sales.
Unless they are hit in the pocketbook with a clear message, they will blissfully carry-on: it is all about pumping out dividends to pay themselves.
Until the gravy train in that regard dries-up they will do whatever they feel like.
Petitions, rage-quits, eloquently written letters will all pretty much fall on deaf ears.
With the mechanicus stuff released, it may be hard for some to ban all purchases of GW product based on Eldar setting the even higher watermark for cheese.
No not interested in supporting your rant to GW. Not now or after any play time either. I just got my codex today haven't even had a game and people want units banned?
We accuse GW of making decisions with no play testing ? and now this demand?
Play another game its less hassle for you because nothing else will change. If its not Eldar this month it will be something else by the end of the year
MWHistorian wrote: GW simply isn't worth all this effort
The game has become too broken and unfun for many. They're trying so hard to salvage a game they once enjoyed but the fact is that 40k will never be what they want. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Its time to move on guys. There are other games out there that are better and actually engage the players.
With the right quantity of Lube, it works, thats what GW is thinking anyway...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drunken Angel wrote: No not interested in supporting your rant to GW. Not now or after any play time either. I just got my codex today haven't even had a game and people want units banned?
We accuse GW of making decisions with no play testing ? and now this demand?
Play another game its less hassle for you because nothing else will change. If its not Eldar this month it will be something else by the end of the year
No, its Eldar now, and it will be the last, because just like in 6th they will see their mistake, and tone down any codex that comes after in an flimsy attempte to "balance things back in", but there will still be an Eldar book, that should'nt be.
Also its highly dissapointing that the codex is named Craftworlds and that it doesn't contain any Craftworlds rules..., apparantly only SM chapters gets specific rules for each of their Company...
Also its highly dissapointing that the codex is named Craftworlds and that it doesn't contain any Craftworlds rules..., apparantly only SM chapters gets specific rules for each of their Company...
Almost every army should have some form of Chapter Tactics
Orks - Klans
IG - Doctrines
CSM - Chaos Chapter Tactics
Eldar - Craftworlds
Dark Eldar - Cabals
Tau - Castes
Necrons - Dynasty
Nids - Hive Fleets
SoB - Order of _____
The craftworld rules are formations rather than 1 time use buffs you forget to use half the time anyway. I play SM and eldar and I like the eldar way of doing it better. This codex has me considering selling my marine army to get more eldar.
This is how you KNOW for a fact that this Codex is completely broken. MARTEL AND I AGREE!!!!!!!
Jesus that statement has never been uttered in this forum EVER! Their is no balance to this new codex and realistically there is very little hope you can now beat Eldar if they bring even a remotely competitive list, unless your opponent is a moron and charges his jetbikes into a squad of assault marines/Boyz
Ghazkuul wrote: This is how you KNOW for a fact that this Codex is completely broken. MARTEL AND I AGREE!!!!!!!
Jesus that statement has never been uttered in this forum EVER! Their is no balance to this new codex and realistically there is very little hope you can now beat Eldar if they bring even a remotely competitive list, unless your opponent is a moron and charges his jetbikes into a squad of assault marines/Boyz
LOL I would say so. Regardless Im just happy theirs only 1 Eldar player in my local area and has agreed already to limit his entire army to the previous codex because this one is so broken.
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