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 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.

Except that your "counters" will be getting their faces shot off much more quickly.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's not just the Jetbikes causing the problems. Against just those Scatterbikes I would agree. A wall of AV14 parked behind an ADL would present it significant problems. But now Eldar get D weapons on their Wraith crap. It's like the person writing this codex wanted it to kick the crap out of Imperial Guard.

Exactly. Even if the D weapons turns out to be just on a 6 or whatever, it's not like there isn't other stuff in the Eldar list that can take out other things you bring against them.

In all seriousness though, do you think if they got enough mail, be it email or snail, it might actually generate at least a conversation at GW HQ?

Poly Ranger wrote:
In all seriousness though, do you think if they got enough mail, be it email or snail, it might actually generate at least a conversation at GW HQ?

Probably not, they have invested time, money ect. into this and are expecting huge revenue from the slew of Jetbikes about to be purchased ($40.00 for x3 I believe) so its going to happen and stay that way regardless. There may be an FAQ in the future but don't hold your breath, why I am saying lamenting about is not going to solve anything. And in regards to the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring to the table, they already CAN in the form of Wraithguard and Wraithknights and again there not as scary as people are making them out to be. Freaking out over a book that has not even been released and going off only a small piece of known information is not going to help at all in the slightest. Wait to the book drops and then you can debate about the topic with the complete picture, I for one am not worried with both my Tau and Imperial Guard and look forward to the challenges the new book will bring.

It is not worth it, because GW doesn't not care what you think. Don't get me wrong, GW doesn't care what I think either.

40k is just big cash machine for them. Tweak the rules, sell them with a new hardcover for a higher price. Take units out of one book and sell them in another for the same price. Invalidate army builds every few years so the stupid nerds buying the product (not my personal opinion, but it seems to be what GW thinks given the CHS court case) feel compelled to buy a whole new army. And they'll do it with pride too, and argue against anything negative people could say of GW, because GW cares very deeply about their game. That's why they call themselves a game company...well, at least *Games* is in the name...sorta an MTV thing going on...

GW, like most other businesses, cares about one thing: making money. Their focus tends to be on the short-term, because as far as they seem to believe customers come in for a while, spend their money and go. Again going back to the CHS case, they don't think people really play the game anyway- just buy all the pretty miniatures and talk about how kewl they are. The only time they have truly made a change is what we see going on with WHFB, and that was from a loss of market share.

Although maybe these scatbikes are part of a new plan to raise their dwindling revenue, by turning game inflation up to 11, they can extract every dollars those nitwit-I mean, collectors- will offer up. I realize this last bit is quite tinfoil-ish, but if you go back and read about TLSR's demise and the level of contempt the company's owner had for its customers, it really could be a possibility.

The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

 Cieged wrote:
The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

I'm sorry that we're all outraged about a relatively cheap troop choice being able to murder 33 marines in one turn.

 Cieged wrote:
The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

It's easy to be slightly upset when you play at least semi-competitively for over a decade, and then the designer who thinks of eldar as his personal baby writes a rule book that says "on a 2+, you win."

It's like they hate the idea of the game being balanced and want to make it where you HAVE to make some custom scenario or something for some armies to be able to stand on even footing.

One of our local eldar players was excited for the new dex. He hasn't gotten to play them for over a year, and he had to start a 2nd army just to play. I told him about the bikes yesterday, and he was incredibly disappointed.

 Cieged wrote:
The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

Maybe people actually care about some semblance of balance in the game they play?

Man it really pisses me off how often genuine concerns about the game are dismissed as just 'complaining' or 'whining', or, 'it's always been like that'...

 Cieged wrote:
The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

Metawhining is always productive.

Now behold me whining about whining about whining.

You forgot one; GW have written this codex with the next edition in mind which will make big changes to jetbikes !

I may sound like an uber noob here but what Jetbike rule?

Eldar jet bikes: +1 toughness, relentless, 3+ armor, 3+ jink, 12" movement, 24" flat-out, 2d6 jump move in assault phase, tl 12" s4 bladestorm but it's irrelevant cause they're gona be replaced with a 4-shot s6 ap6 36" gun or 4-shot s5 ap5(?)bladestorm 36". Bladestorm is ap2 on a 6 to-wound - basically, rending without +d3 to armor pen.

 Cieged wrote:
The amount of complaining is over whelming. For a moment I thought I was on league of legends forums...

Welcome to 40k.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.

Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.

In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.

Well, it might be a good idea. Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause. Basically, everything people want is special weapons limitations for bikes and no ranged S: D. It's no big deal to edit a few sentences to not lose profit on rage-quitters and people who'd hold on buying anything for fear of playing against new eldar.

What about we compose a group letter with sensible arguements and sign it up? Cause letters like: "Dear GW, i hate you and i'm gona eat your children because eldar" - won't lead to desired effect.

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause.

If GW paid attention to customer complaints you'd end up with a completely different company and a completely different game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause.

If GW paid attention to customer complaints you'd end up with a completely different company and a completely different game.

Well, haven't they changed rules to get rid of fish of fury and 6-th taudar?

Besides, we constantly see tweaks on things that people complained about the most. Like cron flying spam and bargelords. Ork mob rule for smaller units and viability of tankbustas. They do screw up occasionally but who doesn't?

 koooaei wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause.

If GW paid attention to customer complaints you'd end up with a completely different company and a completely different game.

Well, haven't they changed rules to get rid of fish of fury and 6-th taudar?

Besides, we constantly see tweaks on things that people complained about the most. Like cron flying spam and bargelords. Ork mob rule for smaller units and viability of tankbustas. They do screw up occasionally but who doesn't?

They screw up constantly however in ways that everyone often sees even before the books hit the shelves (I still remember the initial Vendetta rumors in 2009 and people saying "oh that can't be right"), and then take literally years to fix it because they refuse to do any changes to printed materials without a full release, unlike every other game company that doesn't seem to have any issues with Errata.

Yeah. If anything GW does seem to listen a whole lot to the community about the most commonly complained about units. On the one hand I doubt they would deploy a nerf in a FAQ, but when you look at the necron codex, the things people were constantly complaining about were the things that got hit. Such as every unit with a tesla destructor, mss, wraiths with destroyer lord. Now, wraiths got positive adjustments as well, and the codex is as strong as ever even if annihilation barges got trashed.

So, sending a letter to GW regarding eldar jetbikes, will it do any good? I would guess that the rules are already printed, and they will not balance through a FAQ. We are likely stuck with the absurdity until a new codex or edition tweaks the rules. But complaining a lot about them will make sure that they eventually get fixed since GW seem to balance by popular opinion when it comes to nerfing things. Eventually may in this case be more than two years.

For my local meta this probably means eldar will be nigh unplayable since their armies will rack up too much comp score, so nothing new under the sun. The eldar codex will be brokenly unfair and get tweaked out of the competitive scene. While not much of a serious tournament player myself, the competitive ruleset is widely adapted even for casual games as long as you do not play in a GW store.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

If GW moves ASM to troop slot and give everyone of the unit Assault 3 Plasma gun without overheat, we may adapt. Don't forget the D-range weapon and Gargantuan Creature of Eldar. After Dreadnought, Dreadknight, Stormtalon and so on receive D-range weapon, we definitely can!

Assuming the new WD leaks are the real deal, and not a bunch of nonsesne (as in, writers had no idea of actual rules, or the entire WD is a fake to find a leak or something) I'd say that more than I'm tempted to mail them about the windrider spesifically, I'm tempted to start a pentition for them to fire their entire rules team.

Seriously. a new eldar codex is mostly copy-paste with some fixes in it. how hard can it be?

I'm not claiming to be an expect, but given the timeframe and quality of new releases-I alone could pump out better rules than their entire team combined had it actually been my job.

 Runic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.

Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.

In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.

I guarantee that if I picked up that Eldar army, I would table your BA. It's very difficult for anyone to beat me with BA, and with a list like that, it would be a massacre.

Martel732 wrote:

 Runic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.

Odd, my BA can probably table the bikes. Perhaps you're playing the wrong kind of BA.

In any case, the sky won't fall and the world will not end. Just like it hasn't before when something equally apparently overpowered has been presented. Few months before it was the Necrons and people have already figured out ways to beat them. But by all means, do go on with the clamouring if it's fun. It'll die down in a few months, as will the jetbike spam.

I guarantee that if I picked up that Eldar army, I would table your BA. It's very difficult for anyone to beat me with BA, and with a list like that, it would be a massacre.

I'd love to see a battle report of BA versus an Eldar army with those leaked rules. It would be hilarious in its one-sided-ness. D-cannons and super bikes everywhere. Wave Serpents too.

I'm more willing to bet that the Jetbike sprues were developed and finished well before the new rules were written up... hence, with every bike able to take an upgrade already in place on the sprues, the rules were basically forced in to the unit entry regardless of whether anyone thought a unit of 10 fast moving heavy weapons was a "good idea" or not.

Are they likely undercosted? Almost certainly. Are 40-60 Scatterbikes going to auto-win every single tournament from here on out? Of course not!

The 'sky is falling' crowd seem to put forward this notion that suddenly Eldar armies are going to be throwing out highly accurate 160/S6 shots a turn...
while Jinking for a 3++ save...
and still fielding 3-4+ Serpents filled with Fire Dragons & Wraiths galore...
with Farseers always rolling up Guide/Misfortune/Fortune for their powers...
Warlocks always having the perfect power in support despite being Lv1 psykers...
and those 40-60 bikes will always be able to comfortably zip around, make their shots, and then dive back into magical LoS blocking terrain and never take a single shot in return...

Something about the above just doesn't seem plausible for some reason, but then, maybe I'm just some dumb White Knight, TFG WaaC's Eldar player? (which would be hilarious, considering my main army is Tzeentch Daemons + CSM's. )

Yeah sure obviously they rarely have to jink unless you manage to get lots of ap3 close to them, which in itself is a rough cookie given 36" range, 12" movement and JSJ. Sometimes when gak looks broken, it's simply broken. They are insanely mobile and shoot really hard. And cheap enough to warrant including anti tank. When you outrange and outrun most things that could threaten you, you have a define advantage.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Are they likely undercosted? Almost certainly. Are 40-60 Scatterbikes going to auto-win every single tournament from here on out? Of course not!
The 'sky is falling' crowd seem to put forward this notion that suddenly Eldar armies are going to be throwing out highly accurate 160/S6 shots a turn...
while Jinking for a 3++ save...
and still fielding 3-4+ Serpents filled with Fire Dragons & Wraiths galore...
with Farseers always rolling up Guide/Misfortune/Fortune for their powers...
Warlocks always having the perfect power in support despite being Lv1 psykers...
and those 40-60 bikes will always be able to comfortably zip around, make their shots, and then dive back into magical LoS blocking terrain and never take a single shot in return...

What point value are we considering. ~1800?

Now imagine 40 scatter bikes, that takes up a little more than half of the 1800, still leaving 750 for AT and HQ. Now for a start just ignore the movement and jink. From turn one they can put out 160 shots. Just as a gunline, 36" range 160 shots. What can touch them in any real way until turn 2-3? A lot of people are poiting to their fragility, but 40 meq bodies are not weak, certainly not at 36" range.

The ability to move 12" and still fire, then another 2d6, and to jink is just gravy on the first few turns. It's When things start to close that it matters. But what is going to be closing? What can weather that amount of firepower.

Losing track of all these Eldar jetbike threads.....storm in a teacup. We've seen this time and time and time again when an uber new unit gets released or GW bump an old one.
Adapt and evolve tactics accordingly.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, it might be a good idea. Maybe GW is sincerely unaware of what bad this changes might cause. Basically, everything people want is special weapons limitations for bikes and no ranged S: D. It's no big deal to edit a few sentences to not lose profit on rage-quitters and people who'd hold on buying anything for fear of playing against new eldar.

Sadly they'll probably make more money out of all the people who want to buy the jetbikes than they'll lose from people quitting.

"Dear Games Workshop, can we please have one edition where the most favoured son, Eldar, isn't the best army? Regards, guy who doesn't frolick"