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I know it won't really do any good, but if we outline the serious imbalance with any other unit, and they get enough concerned emails reminding them what happened with fantasy and how many customers that lost them, do you think there is the slimmest chance they may actually discuss it amongst themselves? Or am I being naive? I mean this is so much further than serpent shields, knights and wraiths that it's beyond the pale, all of those had some effective counter for the points they cost (or lacked really serious damage output or range, like the wraiths) This WILL be the anvil that broke the camels back.
It's a desperate reaction but I really don't know what else to do. I, like many of you, have invested thousands and thousands of pounds in this hobby, I can't just walk away. But I can't see the competitive game being 40k anymore, I see it being The War in Heven. I have plenty of Necrons but that's not the point.
If you bought a 5 star time share and they reduced the standard to 3 stars without giving you the choice, you'd be a bit miffed right?

I really think people are overreacting, from what I've heard is that they only have a 4+ armor save so they are not invincible and 270pts. Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.

"Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.""

For 40 S6 shots? With 36" range? That's an insane statement.

3+ armour save, plus their mobility will help. Although we have enough threads about this now, that's not the point of this thread.

If you're going to send GW anything regarding a complaint, send it via snailmail. Email will simply get tossed/form responsed by Customer Service if its not a product issue. An actual letter is likely to mean more.

The OP assumes that the GW people are literate. Or else they could have read what their design team vomited out here.

Martel732 wrote:
"Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.""

For 40 S6 shots? With 36" range? That's an insane statement.

Yup, 48" including their movement, then they can just scoot back after they shoot.

I'm still holding out hope that it'll be a balanced codex besides those units. I haven't seen the WK point cost, so I *might* be okay with playing against one at a 2k point value, but I'm hoping I can just flat out tell any Eldar player I am going to play against that I do not play against SL windriders. I can't see anyone in my area fielding more than 5-10 in their lists, and if they do mind swapping out for Shuriken Cannons for the same price (IMO much more balanced with 24" range and 1 less shot) I will just apologize politely and say my army is not equipped to deal with them.

I'm just gonna treat every unit of Windriders I see in the new edition like I would treat 2 wave serpents in the old one. Nothing will change really. It's really rare to see guys at my club go full competitive cheese, and if they do it's mostly against each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
I really think people are overreacting, from what I've heard is that they only have a 4+ armor save so they are not invincible and 270pts. Is a pretty expensive cost to pay.

I think it's relevant to point out that a Swiftclaw bike costs 20 points for 1 S4 shot at 24", 2 S4 shots at 12" from my Space Wolf Codex.

a Windrider bike costs 27 points, gets:

-Objective Secured
-36" Turbo boost rather than 24"
-4+ Jink Cover save
-4 S6 shots at 36"
-2d6 free movement in the assault phase

The space marine basically brings 1 point of toughness to the table and 7 points, in exchange for all that and more than quadruple the effective firepower.

Put it this way: What if the new Space Wolf book came out and Grey Hunters were 22 PPM, and their bolters were Assault 8. This is about on that scale.

No.

Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.

Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.

They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.

Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAAC TFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.

I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.

 Blacksails wrote:
No.

Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.

Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.

They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.

Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAAC TFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.

I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.

The narrative of taking scatter lasers to the face.

 Blacksails wrote:
No.

Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.

Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.

They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.

Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAAC TFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.

I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.

Players need to realise that it's actually perfectly balanced anyway and everyone's acting like the sky is falling apart no when we haven't even seen 'the whole picture'.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
No.

Players just need to learn and adapt and play better. And play very specific codices and formations that are very strong.

Players also need to remember its only a game, and if you want to win, you're trying too hard.

They also need to keep in mind that the game is about forging a narrative together, and the rules don't really matter.

Plus, if you use the tools given to you in a codex you paid $60, you're probably a WAAC TFG, and you need to negotiate more and harder with your opponent beforehand.

I think I got them all, let me know if I missed anything.

Players need to realise that it's actually perfectly balanced anyway and everyone's acting like the sky is falling apart no when we haven't even seen 'the whole picture'.

The whole picture has already been shot by scatterlasers.

We don't have every single detail of the codex, so we couldn't possibly form an informed opinion.

We must have faith in GW's superior balancing ability.

What could a bunch of random forum goers know about game design anyways?

ImAGeek, you're probably a nerd anyways.

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe the guns themselves changes, and as such the bikes won't be that good in context?

Not a fact in any way, but a possibility.

NOW I think we got them all.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe the guns themselves changes, and as such the bikes won't be that good in context?

Not a fact in any way, but a possibility.

They only lost laser lock.

Everything else about scatter lasers remains the same.

Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe the guns themselves changes, and as such the bikes won't be that good in context?

Not a fact in any way, but a possibility.

We've seen the weapons profiles. They lost laser lock but that's it. And that doesn't affect the Jetbikes anyway really.

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You are cracking me up here. BA on a good day can have a few guys stagger over and punch an Eldar or two with the current codex.

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

Can I adapt by writing my own new codex?

Just use the Eldar codex, Martel. That way the rules are perfectly balanced! If everyone is using the same rules then nothing is broken right? Right?

Well my army doesn't have many options to deal with stuff with so much fire power and movment. But what am realy worried about is not those 60 bikers list, which probably no one will play, but those made out of 20 jetbikes, some DE ally and pin point deep striking WG that blow up all my tanks and kill my order givers in one turn.

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

It couldn't be any worse than what GW is charging us.

And I'm being serious when I say that.

I remember in 5th on these boards, JustDave wrote three fan-dexes that were better balanced internally and externally, offered more variety, better matched the fluff and theme, and was free.

One random guy on the internet.

GW has a huge budget, years of experience, and used to have some of the better talent (or at least theoretical access through financial means) for rules writing, not to mention a huge player base to tap into for feedback.

It hurts when I think about it.

Fortunately, Yak and other Dakkaites are making a 28mm sci-fi game. I'll have to read the fluff to see if my Tannenberg fit in the universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:


In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

Well, in fairness, there have been a small handful of decent ideas and potential counters that could be heavily influenced by player actions and luck, but all of them are either super tailored and wouldn't fare well in a TAC environment, or use very specific units/formations from a small selection of books.

The likes of DA, BA, IG, and SoB will struggle to even last the game. Other codices are pigeon-holed into using only the best units to survive in arguably cheesy methods.

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks this is a good idea, healthy for the game, or worthy of the price tag GW offers.

If people are willing to keep playing for whatever reasons, more power to them. Some are fortunate to have a solid gaming group of close friends. For many more, this just hurts an already poor game, and makes tournaments, leagues, pick up games, and even fluffy scenarios, that much more unbalanced.

The obvious response to this post from people who are okay with this change will be to tell me to stop panicking/the sky isn't falling, or what have you. For the record, I'm passed the point of panic and worrying. This is mostly now just comical and sad. Sad that a universe I really enjoy with a model selection (both GW's and 3rd party) is being tainted by being attached to a poor game. That GW continues to ask for an inflated price, and people make the excuse that we just need to either adapt or fix them ourselves, making me the bad guy.

Oh, and I'll openly laugh at the next person who points out its ridiculous to quit because of this release. People aren't quitting because of this release. They're quitting for dozens of other reasons and releases that have built up. For some, this could be the straw the breaks their back. Some don't care. Some take the good with the bad (Skitarii are pretty cool, Knights have cool models, even the jetbikes look good, and finally in plastic), while others will finally give up after a pretty dramatic power creep these past two years.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.

It's not just the Jetbikes causing the problems. Against just those Scatterbikes I would agree. A wall of AV14 parked behind an ADL would present it significant problems. But now Eldar get D weapons on their Wraith crap. It's like the person writing this codex wanted it to kick the crap out of Imperial Guard.

Yaknow. 7th was petty damn good balance wise so far. Even necrons were not too bad.

But now that I know the gun still has that range, power and shots - it's outright ridiculous and every intern should be able to see it...


Here is to hoping WD got something seriously wrong.

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Agreed, stop freaking out until the book comes out and instead start thinking of ways to adapt and counter bikes.

We all need to adapt harder!

In seriousness, there's an 18 page discussion where we haven't been able to come up with a reliable counter to the Jetbikes, especially considering the rest of their army can still counter your counters...

And we still have people saying it's fine and we just need to adapt

Don't forget to take into account it's also people ignoring said counters and claiming that they don't work when it comes from player experience that they actually do and the fact it's easier to cry about it then think of constructive ways to handle it. For Imperial Guard for example Leman Russ heavy lists solve a lot of the problems that massed scatter lasers present. For my Tau? welcome to missile pod wielding crisis suits supported by marker lights and R'Varna and Y'Varah Riptides from Fogeworld. The biggest change to the Eldar jetbikes is their weapon loadout, as it stands now they are exactly the same in terms of durability and armor save. whatever works against them now will work against them in the new book.

What do people not get about the fact that Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can take other stuff alongside them? Leman Russ heavy list? Boom, enjoy my Fire Dragons. They will still have the points to counter your jetbike killers.

Apart from 36" range. That is huge. And rather than 'crying about it' we've been thinking of counters, they don't work when you compare the points, the maneuverability, the range and tge fact that eldar have wraithguard, WK, Fragons and lances galore, to say nothing of the new D weapons.