If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.
Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.
But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!
With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.
Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition
There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:
Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.
If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.
I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.
Missed the Hemlock on the first pass. Fixing that.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: A smaller. psychic version of the Vampire Hunter. Like the Vampire Hunter, use only in Apocalypse games against people you hate.
Your trying to start a tactics thread bases on almost no information. Why not wait til you have actual screenshots from early books etc, rather than just the WD.
In the rumor thread we have significant info from a source that has posted pictures of the book, and has accurately spoiled Khorne Daemonkin in the past -- they're highly likely to be reliable. These are NOT WD rumors.
TheNewBlood wrote: If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.
Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.
But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!
With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.
Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition
There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:
Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.
If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.
I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.
i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW
TheNewBlood wrote: If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.
Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.
But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!
With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.
Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition
There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:
Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.
If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.
I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.
i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW
I was tempted by this idea, but I'm not a very good painter and I figured a guide could help me out. That, and I love the Eldar lore. I also wanted to get the new psychic power cards before they ran out.
I hate this new codex so much, I pre-ordered the limited edition!
The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.
Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.
Frozocrone wrote: The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.
Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.
That only applies to the flamers. Everything else has full-power D.
Bikes are squishy, sure, but full units of Scatbikers will shoot down your DE transports without needing to jink. The Wraithknight is a lot faster that anyone realizes.
Frozocrone wrote: The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.
Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.
That only applies to the flamers. Everything else has full-power D.
Bikes are squishy, sure, but full units of Scatbikers will shoot down your DE transports without needing to jink. The Wraithknight is a lot faster that anyone realizes.
Fair comment. But you can still Jink from Destroyer Weapons (aside the 6 but eh)
True about the bikes. That's why I'm thinking about Razorwings. Can't be shot before I use them and Large Blasts to get lots of wounds.
Wraithknight is as fast as it was before, being Jump MC, so no change there. It became more durable though.
Time will tell whether we've got 7th ed Daemons again. I'm being optimistic having no experience against them...yet.
I'm thinking about using Eldar as allies for my Tau. With Scorpions getting Stealth and Shrouded (until getting in combat or firing at someone), I'm very much tempted to use them as my melee fellas.
Another good unit to use are Jetbikes. They'll do what my FWs can't: capture objectives, dispatch people to kingdom come and let me save markerlights for Crisis/tanks. Probably fielding the Windrider warhost, for the tasty Shred (with Shred, Shuriken Cannons become better than Scatter Lasers in any scenario - except AVs 10/11)
Not interested in Wraithstuff - the moment I'll utter 'D-strenght' they'll get banned.
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
Thank you. Nothing kills my enthusiasm to play or even freaking talk about the game than complaining nonstop. Same thing happened with the Necron book.
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.
It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.
If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.
There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.
This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.
Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.
I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.
Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.
When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.
Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.
When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.
Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.
Right, and that applies to the competitive tournament scene. I really do feel for the very competitive players out there; I hope you have accepted your new pointy-eared overlords.
My comments in the OP are aimed at the casual/FLGS/whatever scene, where people can turn down opponents. I'm trying to create ways for Eldar players in these scenes to get games and avoid being stigmatized simply because of how ludicrously overpowered our upcoming codex is.
Jetbikes slaughter the majority of flyers in the game. The primary threat is AV13+, which WWP fire dragons deal with pretty well.
- - - - - -
I think the easiest way to make a "friendly" Eldar list is to just not spam. If you have to spam (like a Saim-Han themed list), then don't max out on the best weapons. I've played a lot of games with Eldar since 7th started and I've avoided most of the dirty looks by having a strong but non-spammy list. One Wave Serpent holding fire dragons, two jet bike squads, jetseer, trolltarch, one warp-spider squad, two war-walker squads and a wraithlord. It's competitive in my meta without being overbearing.
Yeah but you specifically have to play the army with a handicap. As it is you got a possible Aspect Warrior host which can apparently get BS 5 Dark Reapers possibly or at least BS5 Fire Dragons.
You specifically have to handicap yourself if the rumours are true.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah but you specifically have to play the army with a handicap. As it is you got a possible Aspect Warrior host which can apparently get BS 5 Dark Reapers possibly or at least BS5 Fire Dragons.
You specifically have to handicap yourself if the rumours are true.
This thread is about the sort of handicaps Eldar players will have to use in order to get people to avoid playing them.
Personally, I don't think BS5 Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons are OP, as in order to get them the Eldar player must use a very restrictive formation setup with a decently expensive core. Fire Dragons lack mobility unless given a thankfully toned-down Wave Serpent, and Dark Reapers are lacking in survivability.
It also fits with the fluff; if you personally spent hundreds of years perfecting the use of a single weapon, I would imagine BS5 would be the end result.
Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.
I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.
Gamerely wrote: I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.
I agree, but with the new Eldar codex it's a case of the supremely strong units being flat-out better that other armies' supreme units. Scatbikers are the best 27 point infantry in the game. Wraithknights are an enormous anti-deathstar unit that is utter death both at range and up close.
Squidmanlolz wrote: Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.
What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?
Sad thing is, like the Necrons, I could really get behind the Codex because I appreciate how fluffy it is. (Barring the bikes, a heavy weapon on a super fast light chassis feels odd) but like the Exarch's and D-Cannons and etc. if only they cost 20-30% more given the unit in question.
TheNewBlood wrote: Wraithknights are an enormous anti-deathstar unit that is utter death both at range and up close.
Up close yeah with Stomp and Initative 5 D attacks (as well as HoW S10). Range output is eh. 2 Str. D shots would only kill two models a turn, and that's if you hit.
Squidmanlolz wrote: Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.
What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?
Zhardsnark could
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule. Trust the Orks to have an answer for Eldar trickery!
On the bright side, I if I do end up lobbing S7 AP2 ignores cover massive blasts from across the table at BS7, it won't feel cheesy or over the top against the Eldar
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.
It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.
If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.
There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.
This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.
No it is exactly what it is.. "omg sky is falling"..
The book is not even out yet... And all the internet pros are already writing doomsday post to indulge their self righteous opinion.
Oh no range D... woopie, how many shots? ignore cover and saves on a what? Guess is you are smart you know what to go for first?
Oh no volume of fire of str 6 on bikes.. And as you say they have DIV for ignores cover. First off if they are rolling for ignores cover with their eldar, then fear not... Second umm current wave serpents, str 6 and str 7, twin linked, and half the shots auto ignore cover, no need for div spell. So the new bikes are not much of a problem compared to before... Shoot them with pillow guns. Or run em down with a beast pack cover hopping.
.
Or as i said, wait for the book. Honestly, the good or even decent players could careless what a book says, let alone what everyone may think of a book prior to release and prior to anyone with any credentials even playing it. Every book has its strong units and volume of fire or whatever.
But really, as I said, this happens with every book that is released. Then with book in hand they can make a better case for OP things, or wait for maybe 1 or 2 games/bat reps to make up your mind. But when the smoke clears the book finds its place in the 40k gaming world. And the player of the book or against the book finds his place. *See sig below
Squidmanlolz wrote: Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.
What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?
Battle Focus does not allow jetbikes to turbo-boost after shooting. Since they are either getting within 12" to shoot, or turbo-boosting away you can bog them down in CC or force them to turbo-boost (limiting their ability to shoot)
EDIT: forgot that Scatter Lasers have a longer range, my point still stands.
As i already said in another thread things could be less bad than it looks on the competitive side.
After giving this a bit of though i'm no longer so negative about it. At least i no longer deem necessary reverting to Codex: Wave Serpent.
Let's do a bit of an analysis, trying to follow this concept:
What is good to the gameplay and fun factor of a friendly/semicompetitive /competitive game? Those are the vast majority of the games being played after all.
I'll go through perceived problems one by one.
1) D Template Wraithguards: A min unit dropped with DE ally can take out pretty much any model in game. The chance to take out a land raider is close to 100% with 5 guys, but the unit also costs more than a LR. Something bigger can counter an AD Lance with ease, but the cost starts getting high. Contrarily to the Farsight bomb, they have no mobility to get out of there, and no uber commander to increase survivability. Once dropped they are dead. Taking a squad would be betting on the chance that the enemy is bringing a suitable target, I.E. a model/unit where i can apply 300-350 points of damage in a shooting phase, or is using an army that can't shut them down reliably before a second shooting phase comes. This makes them the counter to:
a) Knights and AD Lance in particular
b) Decurion, they negate their resilience and have good chances to get a second round of shooting (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
c) Tank units
d) Nice way to get rid of Thunderfire cannons
e) Thunderwolves
f) Any deathstar if you can negate invisibility (highly possible with eldar)
In conclusion those guys punish cheese choices (with the exception of point C, poor guards). I dont' see a reason why i wouldn't like to see those in my LGS.
2) A similar analysis can be done on the Hemlock. Sure it has scary firepower, but again we are talking about a lot of points for a 10/10/10, and those blasts can miss. High risk/high reward unit. I like it.
3) Vaul's wrath. If the points remain the same then those things have a scary amount of firepower for their cost. Will have to see the details. There again, they have range 24 on an artillery, so they do have some drawbacks.
4) Bikes. No excuses here, they need something to keep them in check.
5) WKs. No counters in the game except for one unit in one codex that is already getting abused. Exceedingly undercoster. Definitely no go.
So in conclusion:
1) No WKs.
2) 1 in 3 weapons for bikes
And nothing else. With those rulings, the eldar look like a really fun army to play against, and at the same time "heal" our competitive meta a bit, by adding counters to the most cheesy lists. Sure they do have counter to anything in the game and always in a cost efficient way, but that's the eldar's way of doing things. It's not like they don't pay a price on model costs and durability for that. They are the faction that can reap nice rewards but heavily punishes any mistake. What's not to like?
Squidmanlolz wrote: Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.
What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?
Battle Focus does not allow jetbikes to turbo-boost after shooting. Since they are either getting within 12" to shoot, or turbo-boosting away you can bog them down in CC or force them to turbo-boost (limiting their ability to shoot)
EDIT: forgot that Scatter Lasers have a longer range, my point still stands.
Eldar bikes get to move 2d6" in the assault phase if they do not charge. Combined with the long range of the laser, you're not going to Catch them easily.
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
Thank you. Nothing kills my enthusiasm to play or even freaking talk about the game than complaining nonstop. Same thing happened with the Necron book.
Except it wasn't even close to this
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SonsofVulkan wrote: Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.
When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.
Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.
Refusing to play for any reason besides you don't want to is stupid. There are times you can play and know your list is outmatched due to balance issues and it's fine. Waste your worst roles on those games and play well anyway and you'll be surprised how well it goes
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamerely wrote: I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.
The way you have to take a Riptide it's about 240 pts compared to the far superior wraithknight.... which is only getting better. Your point is not valid. It was already better at shooting, fighting and just about everything
Another option is to play like minded people. Against some folks, I will tone down nothing. With others, I will adjust accordingly.
There are so many tourneys these days, I will continue to attend the ones I like how they will run the event. I will not attend the ones where I like how it will be run.
At the end of the day it will be business as usual except I will be painting more to add to my 20,000 point Eldar collection.
I'm actually okay with the changes to Exarchs and the associated unit buffs. All of them appear to be on a limited, tactical level of viability, which fits the tone and theme of Aspect Warriors. I just hope that Exarchs are costed appropriately, considering that they are now much more than a generic character upgrade.
Good that Illic doesn't have a D weapon for his rifle. I'm not looking forward to adding more units to the list of ones we can't use.
Holo-Fields are now streamlined with DE and Harlequins. 4+ jink or 5++ invuln. Helps skimmers a surprising amount, without going over-the-top. Costed exactly the same as before.
Our psychic powers are as good as ever, without going overboard.
The Phoenix Lords received needed buffs, while remaining appropriately expensive.
As per the OP, if we ignore and change the offending units, Eldar go from "Codex: Scatbikers and D weapons" to "Codex: Aspect Warriors", which IMO is needed to convince people to move away from the cheese units.
A pity that this codex could have been so much greater with some rather obvious changes...
I got into Eldar when I saw the new wraithguard in a White Dwarf preview of the last codex. I loved the look and I have been hooked on them ever since.
It has taken me almost 2 years to get my Eldar wraith army up to my standards. Aside from the WK, (and I only took 1), they have never been considered cheese. Most players love playing against them because they are unique in my area.
All of the outrage over my awesome Wraith units really makes me sad. I refuse to be TFG. At the end of the day, I would rather my opponent have a good time. This community is too small to afford losing players over something like this.
I'm going to give my old list a run with the new codex first before I make any big changes. If it is indeed crazy, I'll adjust the list, either by giving the WK the sword/shield, or dropping him altogether.
It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.
Even with a -1 to the destroyer table with the templates a roll of 3-6 still does d3 wounds/HP. So even though it's "only" S4 for insta death it will still most likely kill what ever it hits. No cover ,no armor and no fnp. Unless they have an invul and lots of luck making all thir save, they are vapor.
As far as the battle report goes, we know we have a problem when Decurion Necrons can't even put up a decent fight against us. As predicted, Wraithguard with D-Scythes are so OP it's almost funny. The Wraithknight is unstoppable even against gauss. All the more reason to avoid taking either of them.
Farseers are even better. The new runes that let us re-roll a test once per game are a big boost.
With any luck, not taking the overpowered/undercosted units will put us on the same level as...Decurion Necrons!
koooaei wrote: The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.
That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.
The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.
I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.
As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.
i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW
I for one intend to exploit the hell out of these new rules and enjoy my period at the top of the heap. The bitter tears of my opponents and their cries of, "OP!" shall provide much sustenance to my shriveled, desiccated soul. My only regret is that I don't have the money to buy a bunch of new models, so I am stuck with what I have. ... which, sadly, does not include Wraithguard nor more than one Wraithknight.
Talked with some of the guys at my FLGS. All agreed that ranged Strength D, Scatriders, and Wraith units were overpowered and undercosted, to a point that was crossing a line.
However, they were all still willing to play against Eldar, as long as these units were not used.
Some even suggested that their armies' cheese/OP lists could beat Scatriders/Wraiths. I suppose we'll only know about that when the codex is out and people start playing against it.
Still, the new Eldar codex is not being well received by anyone I know.
One great way to adapt is to start playing Infinity until Gee-Dubs stops releasing untested codices full-meth-speed-ahead.
But seriously - I'll be very surprised if this codex is allowed at tournaments in its current incarnation. Since it's clear that there's no way to adapt other races to fit the new Eldar, the game plan will likely be to adapt this new codex to fit the game that we all wish we could play.
Exactly. Tournament organizers have shown that they are more than willing to make changes to the core rules to balance out the game at a highly competitive level, e.g. changing 2++ re-rollable and invisibility. I see no reason why TO's would not either ban ranged D weapons or simply force the 6th edition Distortion rules.
Scatbikers and the Dire Avenger Shrine are very nasty, but there are ways at a very high level to deal with them (in certain armies). No one can ever build their list to counter ranged D.
Honestly, Eldar players need to handicap themselves. If the players themselves won't do it, I'm willing to bet certain circumstances will force them to tone down the unadulterated BS that is certain parts of 7th edition Codex Eldar.
TheNewBlood wrote: It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.
Balance, what's that?
Eldar players were doing this for years with cheaper Fire Dragons (in 5th, I'd pay 80 points for a basic 5 man squad, however, paying for 8 men was a sure Land Raider killer). What's the point other than identifying a more expensive way to do the same thing? And the new Fire Dragons appear to be able to do this even better (+1 on the damage chart and they are already AP1 = +3 to the damage chart). Land Raiders have been a 'meh' choice for several years now and still are. I'm sorry, but your statement stems from 'the sky is falling' syndrome with really no objectivity.
To be fair, not all play groups or players are at the same skill level. If folks need to tone things down for certain players/groups, by all means as it is up to you all to have an enjoyable experience. However, decrying the book is broken and unenjoyable is simply an opinion. This was the same cries we were hearing when the 6th edition Eldar Codex dropped. Some folks learned to play with/against Eldar, others did not. This is no different.
koooaei wrote: The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.
That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.
The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.
I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.
As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.
Hmm. What about trying a house rule where you can take the warhost formations, and you get those abilities, but you use unit data sheets from the 6e book?
Except for scorpions, banshees, and hawks. Those guys are all now pretty sweet and flavorful.
koooaei wrote: The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.
That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.
The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.
I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.
As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.
Hmm. What about trying a house rule where you can take the warhost formations, and you get those abilities, but you use unit data sheets from the 6e book?
Except for scorpions, banshees, and hawks. Those guys are all now pretty sweet and flavorful.
The problem with using unit data from the 6th ed. codex is that some units have arguably changed for the better. Wave Serpents, Phoenix Lords, Exarchs, the list will probably go on.
I actually like that Warlocks are an upgrade to the Windrider squad, as opposed to being part of a unit that gets split up before deployment. I also agree that Scorpions, Hawks, and especially Banshees are much improved in the new codex.
Ultimately, I think that it's going to end up being a combination of rules from the new codex (Wave Serpents) and from the old (Distortion weapons).
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:I'm curious as an ork player how I'm supposed to adapt to the new eldar if these rumors are true.
There comes a point that a codex is so out classed by another , it not a matter of playing better or adapting. Except for getting a new army.
You and other Ork players, as well as any other player, shouldn't have to do anything. This thread is about what Eldar players can do to modify their lists to bring them down to the power level of everyone else.
TheNewBlood wrote: It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.
Balance, what's that?
Eldar players were doing this for years with cheaper Fire Dragons (in 5th, I'd pay 80 points for a basic 5 man squad, however, paying for 8 men was a sure Land Raider killer). What's the point other than identifying a more expensive way to do the same thing? And the new Fire Dragons appear to be able to do this even better (+1 on the damage chart and they are already AP1 = +3 to the damage chart). Land Raiders have been a 'meh' choice for several years now and still are. I'm sorry, but your statement stems from 'the sky is falling' syndrome with really no objectivity.
To be fair, not all play groups or players are at the same skill level. If folks need to tone things down for certain players/groups, by all means as it is up to you all to have an enjoyable experience. However, decrying the book is broken and unenjoyable is simply an opinion. This was the same cries we were hearing when the 6th edition Eldar Codex dropped. Some folks learned to play with/against Eldar, others did not. This is no different.
Very well said sir
The current wraith guard with there Str 10 guns could delete a LR pretty easy but a squad in a Serpent cost a ton, seems like a fair trade, good unit / lots of points.
I mostly dont field Wraith guard or even Knights much any more because of the points concentration, even the scat riders are more than a few points, I have lost count of my riders fleeing the table after losing a couple of riders, every potential heavy bolter round is a dead 27point? model dead.
I stopped playing more than one knight a while back, sometimes they were an easy win button, against a good opponent they could be just point sinks.
I've been using an allied Eldar detachment to my DE army since several months. At 1850, my primary list is 69% DE. So there's that.
Jetseer? Not much has changed apart from the apparent ability to re-roll a single psychic test per turn. Considering I've got a grand total of 3+D6 dice per Psychic Phase I think it's "just" good.
Windriders? Two teams of 3 Scatriders... But that's only six dudes total. They can be PITA if I keep them away from the enemy, but with a healthy amount of terrain at the table and proper positioning on the enemy's part they aren't going to be able to fire and run away all the time. Then there's drop pods, artillery, autocannons, etc. to reach them.
Wraithknight? One SH/GC per army and ranged Strength D is forbidden. Thus, I equip my WK with Glaive + Shield and go hunt those Imperial Knights, Centurion Stars, Wolfstars, undying Necrons, Screamerstars and the like that plague the local tournaments where I play. Yeah, I'm not going to feel guilty about fielding one WK in such an environment.
I was fine with the Eldar allies as they were but I suppose that with all those buffs, adhering to the official restrictions is all I need to do to run them and feel good about my army.
Jeeez. Whinge whinge whinge, cry cry cry. It's getting boring now. I am trawling this forum to find positive threads about the eldar. Having been an eldar player and a fan for as long as I can remember, I'm certainly not going to handicap myself, just to make my army poor enough that people are happy they can win. Those type of players, the ones that say 'what? You've got the new eldar book? I'm not playing you!' are the type that I have absolutely no interest in playing against anyway. It's pathetic. Why should I play 6th ed rules when GW have brought out a lovely new 7th ed book for me. And on that note, people need to make a choice. You either want us to play 6th rules, or 7th rules. You certainly can not mix and match. Otherwise every army in the 40k universe can mix and match any units they want from any of their preceeding books.
I have for a very long time ran a wraith only Iyanden list. My local group loved it. Nothing but wraiths and a spiritseer. I never spammed serpents. As I thought that was boring. And people with that mentality won't spam D weapons or scatterbikes this time round. I understand the issue with ranged D. But I think that people are going to have to accept the fact that D weapons are in 40K now, and here to stay. I personally have purchased some new bikes so I take less wraiths now. But with the wraith host formation (the only way I can field a spiritseer or wraithlord in the eldar specific detachment) I HAVE to take 3 units.
For God's sake, the books not even out yet. And I will guarantee that once it's here, and been played a few times, the community will dry it's tear filled eyes and realise it's not all that bad. It's the same damn thing every time a new top tier book is released. I haven't cried once at the new necrons book. I've played it. I don't ban their formation. Or cry about their wraiths. I just play them. And I have beaten them. And I've been beaten by them more often than I've won. And I love and live for the challenge.
Or, if you don't like what people have to say, you can go somewhere else. Crying because you don't like the posts on a forum no one is forcing you to go on is pretty silly.
To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.
Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.
To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.
Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.
People calling for boycotts of any and all Eldar players are clearly overreacting. That's petty and childish. But thinking you've somehow earned the right to field any units you want and no one can decline to play you? You're deluding yourself. If you can't see that there are some potential builds from this codex that would cause a reasonable opponent to say "No thanks" to a friendly match, you've got your head in the sand.
(Edit: I have to add that it's a shame and I feel for you. You've invested a lot of money in models you like to build an army you like, and the company running the game is so incompetent you can't even field those models now without being TFG and ruining everyone else's fun)
To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.
Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.
I edited before you posted, as I felt that I was being petty.
I can sympathize with the frustration- but I think it's misplaced. If anything, you should be upset (more upset?) with GW, as this is an excellent example of how creating unbalanced rule-sets is damaging to everyone, including the players who are using those rules (Eldar players). It isn't Eldar players' fault that their army is hilariously broken, but on the other hand it's to be expected that people will be upset, especially after getting creamed by this same army for two editions now. You can say "adapt adapt adapt" , but the reality is that even if you can pull out a win against an Eldar list, the principle remains that the odds are vastly stacked against you for no reason other then the fact that the people who make this product are terrible at their jobs. That's pretty frustrating, and playing at 150% just to have a chance against someone playing at 100% with a better codex doesn't make that sting any less.
on psychic powers I always used my codex powers and never used the GW rule book powers I felt that I was very fluffy to play with just these rather than finding the best super psychic combo. but I agree with the OP that it will be fun fielding aspect armies.
I will be running a massive variety of lists now which makes me really happy, but I guess it sucks to not be Eldar.
but to be honest it always sucked not being Eldar, manga space elves are the one.
To point 2 - I don't mind peoples opinions being different. I have no problem with a different opinion at all. But to have to trawl through page upon page of cry baby attitude on every forum I go on is incredibly frustrating. I've been a loyal eldar player for years. To have every tantrum thrower state "just refuse to play them" is infuriating. Perhaps I'll refuse to play decurion formations. Or cent stars. Perhaps I'll refuse to play just about any unit that is slightly more powerful than one of mine. It's poor form. And it's not what this game is all about. How about, wait until the hook comes out. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad.
Equally, as an eldar player, I point blank refuse to restrict myself and not buy the models that I like, or equally not field the ones I have already put so much time and effort into just because people are butt hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ha. Edited so my reply makes no sense. Nice touch.
See and this is why the game is Fked
Some people want to play the hardest and best list - now if all the lists were about equal AND everyone wanted to play that way - it would be fine.
But what you have is something like this
two football managers are picking teams - one is picking theri players from Manchester United, the other from the local primary school - yeah thats going to be a fun game - for no-one. Thats the exact situation 40k is now in.
Basically you have been handed a hugely OP Codex and don't get why people donlt want to constantly fight from a loosing postion in the remote possibility that they might somehow win and then to add the icing to the turn you are then complaining that people feel hard done by that they are putting models on the table merely to be taken off. Sheesh I wonder why they are unhappy when people liek you say - no I want to play the aboulte worst units I can and make sure you have zero chance............
To those mouthing platiutdues about "oh just wait and you might get a new codex" - why the F should they have to wait and why is this one Codex designed to slaughter everyone else
. Play against it a few times and then decide how you feel about it. I bet it won't be all that bad
And what if it is, what if its worse - Cheese Serpents were never fixed in the last edition depsite their obvious brokeness to everyone who played the game, there will not be a offical fix for this as GW don't care.
Lastly - hand on heart - can say that the new Codex rules
1) Fair and Balanced
2) in line with other codexes,
3) it was needed that EVERY unit (except maybe Cheese Serpents) received a buff or a points reduction
I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players. There are far too many players who do not give a second though to fluff, variation or fun. These are the WAAC players, and this where the anger should be aimed.
I've mentioned it before. Everyone I game with has absolutely no problem with the new book. But they also know I won't spam D strength weapons or scatter bikes. I am in the habit of building fluffy lists. But there are too many out there who will willingly abuse anything even remotely OP. For a while I contemplated starting a tyranids list. But I got so absolutely sick and fed up of hearing "drop everything, take 5 flyrants with TLBLDevs" it gets damn boring. And these are the people that deserve the abuse.
They're likely the players who will flock to this codex like moths to flames. And will be no fun to play against. But they've always existed. They just have a new book to work with.
And to the last post. I think almost all the aspects did need buffs. I don't think wraith guard are a problem as they cost a small fortune to get them anywhere as their range is so short. The knight is the only real broken choice. That's the one that makes me sad.
Blame the system, not the players. It's GW that is making this stuff legal in the first place. Players should not have to self-police. That's not a standard in ANY competitive game other than this one. And it's stupid and lazy on the part of GW.
Trying to say that scatbikes aren't broken, to me, shows that you don't play with players who try. Because I can already imagine what a hell my meta will be with those things.
It seems to me that the Eldar players who are annoyed with the community's complaints either have no objective sense of the meta, and can't imagine what it might be like for most armies to have to face this nonsense; OR just don't understand how disappointing it must be for other armies (Dark Eldar for instance) who saw the general balances being done and thought that there was light at the end of the tunnel. Between BA, SW (for the most part), Dark Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, Tyranids (outside of Flyrant Spam,) and several others, I really got the impression that GW was on the right track. Can these players really not see how frustrating it is to have to go from the heavy sighs of seeing serpent spam on 70% of tables to the even heavier sigh of ranged D weapons and Scatbikers? I would be willing to bet that if these Eldar players played half a dozen games with an army that requires any skill against either 6th or the new 7th edition codex, their opinion would change. Any Eldar player that doesn't have the sense to see why these changes are poisonous to the community simply lacks empathy.
So after getting over my initial shock and a feeling of guilt for playing primarily eldar despite the new book not even being out, I realized a few things. For starters, I don't actually own any guardian jetbikes, wraith guard, or wraith knights. I play largely foot-based armies with lots of jump/jetpackers.
Second, the formations I'd most likely be using (the aspect ones) actually sound pretty cool! BS5 on my aspects looks pretty daunting on paper, but I'd like to wait and see what a list with that formation actually looks like before condemning it. Between WS 5 and the ability to auto-run 6", I can almost see foot banshees being a reasonable unit for friendly games! I really like the stealth+shrouded thing they're doing for scorpions, and BS 2 overwatch on avengers, while quite good, actually seems like a reasonably powerful change provided their cost goes up just slightly. Plus it makes for a great mental image of 300-style spartans holding the gap.
This is probably just my inexperience with destroyer weapons showing, but they actually don't seem *that* bad. I think most people (eldar included) would probably have preferred that most of our wraith/d weapons not become actual d-weapons, but let's stop and think about how such weapons would be used. They're amazing at taking out extremely durable units, but is that really a bad thing? Land raiders get dissolved, sure, but land raiders die pretty fast these days anyway. death stars can be torn apart by them, and that's actually kind of a good thing in my eyes. Would you rather we not have answers to death stars? So they're a solid answer to those annoying units you wish your opponent wouldn't shove so many points into, but how about middling or swarmy units? Remember, those d-weapons do extra wounds to a given model, but not to the unit as a whole. Shoot them at a green tide, and you're using a lot of points to kill at most 1 model per attack. If the d-weapons really do have a -1 to their d-weapon table, then they're essentially poison 3+ weapons that do multiple wounds to a single target. I'm not saying this is a great design decision, but it's not necessarily a game breaker by itself either. It's good against multi-wound models and vehicles. It's actually pretty bad against hordes.
Against large squads of wraith guard, you can assault them with a throwaway unit to eat overwatch, then send in something that's moderately good at close combat to take care of them. Any unit with poison or a powerfist and most MCs are good for this.
The jetbikes are pretty ridiculous. I'll be taking solace in the fact that no one in the area has a huge force of jetbikes, and that getting ahold of a ton of shuriken cannons and scatter lasers can be tricky, especially if you still want to use them on your serpents and walkers.
So yeah. Not feelin too bad about this codex after all. Yes, there are broken things in it, but fortunately they don't happen to be units that I use anyway. Instead, I can use the units that are all getting interesting overhauls that don't look to break the game.
Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.
With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:
Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.
Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.
TheNewBlood wrote: Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.
With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:
Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.
Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.
That's the reason people are complaining / up set. Not every codex gets the same treatment.
Why do some codex lack balance / op units and others get them. That's the issue.
I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.
I get that non-Eldar players are upset, but to label ALL Eldar players as cheese is a bit much. Eldar have a reputation, and It annoys me that when I say I'm playing Eldar that I get the eye-rolls and whiny comments from some long time gamers. Its weird that my fluffy wraith list suddenly looks like an object of hate. I also understand why Eldar players are defending the codex. They have poured time and money into this army, only to turn around and be labeled as TFG. Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.
GW does not make a balanced game. It seemed like they were on that path, but then Necrons and now Eldar, and we can all stop deluding ourselves that there will ever be balance.
But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star. I want a competitive player to play against a competitive list, and I can bring it with this codex. I can run fluffy lists if its a casual environment and I see that my opponent has a nicely balanced Marine list. I can actually run aspects, or Footdar, or even an assault theme with my harlequins.
Its easy to forget how small this community really is. We can't really afford to hate on other players just because of the army they play. If someone wants to be TFG, they will find a way, and right now they are selling their Tau army to buy a bunch of new jetbikes. This new codex just give those players more tools to be TFG.
You don't have to play them. I mean, its supposed to be fun, right?
TheNewBlood wrote: Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.
With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:
Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.
Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.
Most people here aren't complaining about the buffs to scorpions, banshees and the like. I know I am happy to see units like that become playable. I think most people are rallying around the scatbike/WK/ranged D-weapon issue.
Right, and that ties into the idea of handicapping oneself when building a list. It's all a matter of communicating with your prospective opponent about what kind of game they want to play.
The people who are spamming Wraith units and Scatriders aren't playing Eldar the way they were meant to be played. The Eldar are not the hammer of the Imperium; they're a collection of knives with each one suitable for a specific purpose.
Unless you're playing Codex: Scatriders and D-Weapons, in which case you just hammer away.
In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.
How is that so complicated?
Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now
Martel732 wrote: I have never seen a 6th ed Eldar list with less than 5 serpents. Maybe 4 a couple times now that I think hard.
You, my friend, need to find better 40k play partners.
Vashones wrote: I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.
I agree! My Eldar army is sorely outdated (6000 3e points... and 6000 points of unpainted newer models, lol), so I can hardly call myself an Eldar player. However, we have one fellow in our regular group who almost always plays his Eldar, and he's great to play with. I have no idea why people assume that because someone plays a faction, they are TFG. Most vets can curb stomp a newb if they choose to, and really, that is the definition of TFG.
Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.
Yes, that's just being silly. It's unsustainable even in the short term to expect Eldar players to not play 7e codex. It is reasonable to expect them not to play super annoying armies, in the same way they could field a half dozen Serpents in 6e.
But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star.
I'm don't think the obvious cheese everyone is talking about is tournament-winning anyhow. But anyways, the options are cool. It will be neat to play against a variety of warhosts. I know my buddy can field any of the war hosts listed, and I really look forward to playing against all of them, regardless of whether I win or lose.
Talys, you're spot on. I'm just worried that Eldar are going to be even more stigmatized in the eyes of many players.
Fortunately, things can only get better. Ranged D and the Wraithknight are probably going to be banned from tournaments for being too overpowered. There's already a thread theorizing ways to counter jetbike spam at a competitive level.
Once the codex is released, there's probably going to need to be a multi-page thread about how other armies can counter Eldar.
In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.
How is that so complicated?
Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now
This. Love this post. Agreed 100%. The most serpents I ever fielded was 3. And that was my semi comp list. And only because units like scythe guard and fragons needed the mobility. So I'll likely still bring them. Even with the nerfs. I actually like the fact that I won't be whinged at for bringing them anymore.
In 6e, reasonable Eldar players didn't spam Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. In 7e, reasonable Eldar players won't spam Jetbikes and Wraithknights. Not like those were winning strategies against good players anyhow -- they were just skill-less, and cheesy.
How is that so complicated?
Oh yes, I would like all the people who said, "I play Wave Serpents because I love their look" to please field their 6 wave serpents now
This. Love this post. Agreed 100%. The most serpents I ever fielded was 3. And that was my semi comp list. And only because units like scythe guard and fragons needed the mobility. So I'll likely still bring them. Even with the nerfs. I actually like the fact that I won't be whinged at for bringing them anymore.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.
There is so much wrong with this.
He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun. They've done a decent (not that terrible, not that great) though inconstant job thus far. I agree with Khaine's Wrath that there are too many WAAC players, and that WAAC players hurt the game more than any rules that GW has ever, or likely will ever, put out.
TheNewBlood wrote: If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.
Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.
But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!
With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.
Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition
There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:
Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.
If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.
I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.
Missed the Hemlock on the first pass. Fixing that.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: A smaller. psychic version of the Vampire Hunter. Like the Vampire Hunter, use only in Apocalypse games against people you hate.
First I'd like to apologise - I stayed away from this thread for a while due to the title, I assumed it was going to be a thread about how players should 'adapt' to the new eldar codex. I was very pleasently surprised to read your OP. So sorry for my initial assumption.
I have to applaud you for your objective view point and attempt to try and fix what most people agree blatently needs fixing. You see that this harms eldar players more than anyone.
I'm just worried that it (refraining from taking obviously broken units) just won't work (as in - be applied) to many gaming cicles. But that shouldn't stop people from trying, for the exact reason you state - good sportsmanship.
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triant308 wrote: It seems to me that the Eldar players who are annoyed with the community's complaints either have no objective sense of the meta, and can't imagine what it might be like for most armies to have to face this nonsense; OR just don't understand how disappointing it must be for other armies (Dark Eldar for instance) who saw the general balances being done and thought that there was light at the end of the tunnel. Between BA, SW (for the most part), Dark Eldar, Khorne Daemonkin, Tyranids (outside of Flyrant Spam,) and several others, I really got the impression that GW was on the right track. Can these players really not see how frustrating it is to have to go from the heavy sighs of seeing serpent spam on 70% of tables to the even heavier sigh of ranged D weapons and Scatbikers? I would be willing to bet that if these Eldar players played half a dozen games with an army that requires any skill against either 6th or the new 7th edition codex, their opinion would change. Any Eldar player that doesn't have the sense to see why these changes are poisonous to the community simply lacks empathy.
This is an excellent explanation of why people are annoyed.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.
There is so much wrong with this.
How is that wrong? Due to a combination of factors, Warhammer 40k has never been a balanced game. There has always been an element of negotiation involved between both players as to what game that want. Anyone who thinks that 40k was balanced "back in the day" is having a case of rose-colored nostalgia.
The problem with the new Eldar codex is that it upsets the balance in such a way that no other army can reasonably counter it.
Martel732 wrote: I have never seen a 6th ed Eldar list with less than 5 serpents. Maybe 4 a couple times now that I think hard.
You, my friend, need to find better 40k play partners.
Vashones wrote: I'm an Eldar player, and I refuse to be labeled as TFG. I know TFG, I have seen him destroy poor newbies, and it really does not matter what army they play. There is nothing sadder than watching kids sadly pick all their freshly glued grey plastic minis off the table Turn 3.
I agree! My Eldar army is sorely outdated (6000 3e points... and 6000 points of unpainted newer models, lol), so I can hardly call myself an Eldar player. However, we have one fellow in our regular group who almost always plays his Eldar, and he's great to play with. I have no idea why people assume that because someone plays a faction, they are TFG. Most vets can curb stomp a newb if they choose to, and really, that is the definition of TFG.
Sorry, we will not play the 6th ed codex, that is absurd.
Yes, that's just being silly. It's unsustainable even in the short term to expect Eldar players to not play 7e codex. It is reasonable to expect them not to play super annoying armies, in the same way they could field a half dozen Serpents in 6e.
But, I am very excited for this codex, NOT because I can field cheese, but because I have options. I can go straight cheese if its a tournament or I see that my opponent is bringing his 3 Flyrants or Cent star.
I'm don't think the obvious cheese everyone is talking about is tournament-winning anyhow. But anyways, the options are cool. It will be neat to play against a variety of warhosts. I know my buddy can field any of the war hosts listed, and I really look forward to playing against all of them, regardless of whether I win or lose.
Agreed on all accounts. Especially the first. Martel, buddy you need to find a different gaming group. I would've given up on 40k a long time ago if I played in your meta.
Squidmanlolz wrote: He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun.
Losing half your army in a turn and/or needing to play three times as good as your opponent in order to have a chance of winning due to the imbalance in power between your codices is not "fun".
This is a core point, and I don't really understand why people struggle so much to understand it:
Game unbalance makes games unfun. Fact. There is a direct correlation between power unbalance in this game and resentment/hurt feelings/feeling like you've wasted your time/money etc.
Martel732 wrote: Why should Eldar not bring 5 wave serpents? Because GW is lazy?
Because no one in a casual/friendly context will want to play you if you bring 5 Wave Serpents, or spam Wraith units/Scatriders.
Just because GW makes rules that are easily exploitable doesn't mean you should exploit them. And if I were constantly confronted with people bringing the cheesiest lists possible, I would find other, more friendly players.
Besides, didn't you hear? The Serpent Shield was finally nerfed!
Squidmanlolz wrote: He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun.
Losing half your army in a turn and/or needing to play three times as good as your opponent in order to have a chance of winning due to the imbalance in power between your codices is not "fun".
This is a core point, and I don't really understand why people struggle so much to understand it:
Game unbalance makes games unfun. Fact. There is a direct correlation between power unbalance in this game and resentment/hurt feelings/feeling like you've wasted your time/money etc.
Every once in a while, I think about how 40k can be changed for the better. To make it more tactical, more balanced, easier to grasp but with a solid amount of depth. Perhaps with some of the Warmachine or Dropzone Commander mechanics. A group of us drove down to Vegas for the LVO, and on that long drive we talked about all the things that could be fixed to make the game better. At some point, we all stopped and realized it was an exercise in futility.
I remember being surprised when Matt from Miniwargaming years ago flat out said that 40K is unbalanced, period, end of story. But he was right. This game will never be balanced. We can want it, we can demand it with boycotts or emails, but we won't get it. You can either accept that, or continue to be frustrated by it.
I think you can have fun with an unbalanced game. I like the modeling part myself, the social part with my friends, narrative and casual games, and yes, even competitive games. But there has to be a social contract between players. Even tournaments are a form of forced social contract really, with unique missions and restrictions to force players to adhere to standards to allow for everyone to have fun.
You're right about a social contract involved for 40K, but social contracts aren't fun either. It's one thing to play with a tight-knit group of friends, but with strangers or people you know only kind of well it can be a very uncomfortable conversation to have for both parties. It's like,
Spoiler:
"So, looking at your list, can you not use so many scatter-bikes in your army, and less D-weapon units?"
"But I've modeled them all this way.... took me like 10 hours."
"We don't need to play with wisey-wig this time."
"Well... I kind of want to use this list, I've been looking forward to it."
"I don't really want to play against it, it's too strong and I won't have a chance at winning."
"Well... okay. I'll use different units then."
Even if you reach a "compromise", which is basically just one player not being able to use the stuff they want to use, it's an awkward conversation. There's nothing fun about being told that feth you you're not allowed to use the units you've spent money and time on building, and there's nothing fun about having to tell someone that you need them to handicap themselves because the army that you've spent time and money building is too weak to handle theirs. It's actually kind of embarrassing.
So yeah, it's not really a win for anyone. And the thing about 40K always being unbalanced is that it doesn't have to be. The only reason GW pulls these stunts is because people enable them by continuing to buy their products and defend their business practices. Personally, I've been playing 40K for free on vassal for years, and I was starting to save up money to buy actual models but decided not to when 7th edition came out as I felt that I couldn't in good conscience support such anti-customer practices with my money. So instead I continue to just play for free on vassal and torrent the rules. You're not a "bad person" or whatever if you buy GW products, but you are tacitly supporting their business decisions.
The Seer council in general got a nerf, right? Farseers maintained their strength, and got some new goodies like manifest on 3+. However, the Warlock Council itself is a Brotherhood of Psykers ML2 now. That means they only generate 2 psychic dice. Pretty nice nerf. It also means that Warlocks won't have massive amounts of psychic power options. They get two spells and the primaris and thats it. Big deal? In order toget mass access to Warlock powers and Dice, Eldar will need to add them to squads as upgrades.
Has someone done the math on each of the Formations for the Warhost detatchment? It's 895+ points to include Wraith units in a Warhost, right?
Pyeatt wrote: Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.
I disagree. In boxing, or martial arts, they organize competition into weight-classes to maximize fair competition. It's pretty obvious intuitively that it is less fair for a heavy-weight competitor to go against a fly-weight competitor. Quite impressive if that fly-weight competitor wins, but certainly unfair and unbalanced. Sometimes some sport disregards these restrictions, like in the case of Sumo, and challengers of all weights compete against each other. In these cases, the heavier wrestlers dominate the top of the brackets. If boxing or other martial arts did this as well, heavy-weight competitors would likely dominate overall.
In general, there is nothing wrong with trying to achieve some sort of 'fairness' through restrictions. Matching up two army-lists as you would two competitors weight-classes seems like one approach to me. In fact, it could be argued that it can make things more competitive when some third variable like size, or weight, are held constant, so that only skill is left as a factor. Of course, it can never truly be achieved, but we can try, right?
Edit:
Similarly, should female competitors have to face male competitors in boxing or other olympic sports? Sometimes fair isn't equal.
Pyeatt wrote: Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.
Sure like an infant child being given the freedom to use anything within his area of influence to his benefit vs a modern day special forces operative given the benefits found within his sphere of influence and both under same rules are told to have at it. Technically fair. On top of it all it's ok that the Marine should expect a line up of willing infant childs ready for the slaughter and oughta take offence should any of these infant children get out of line and not take up the challenge.
/sarcasm
rollawaythestone wrote:So a couple questions and thoughts:
The Seer council in general got a nerf, right? Farseers maintained their strength, and got some new goodies like manifest on 3+. However, the Warlock Council itself is a Brotherhood of Psykers ML2 now. That means they only generate 2 psychic dice. Pretty nice nerf. It also means that Warlocks won't have massive amounts of psychic power options. They get two spells and the primaris and thats it. Big deal? In order toget mass access to Warlock powers and Dice, Eldar will need to add them to squads as upgrades.
Has someone done the math on each of the Formations for the Warhost detatchment? It's 895+ points to include Wraith units in a Warhost, right?
If we're going by the points costs in the old codex, then at a minimum it would be 805, though over 1000 points would produce an optimal list. And in a Warhost, you have to take the Guardian core, which is around 950 points. However, we don't know if the points costs have changed for all the units in the book (Wraithguard are the same points: 160 for 5 D weapons ).
Pyeatt wrote:Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.
Sure it would be fair, but would it be fair to your opponent? Just asking.
It's reasonable to say that both sides having full access to all the options available in their army books is fair.
It's also reasonable to say that both sides having an approximately equal chance at victory is fair.
Personally, I tend to come down on the side of number one. Deployment, mission, matchup: a game of 40k is going to start on an unlevel playing field pretty much every time. I don't think handicapping one group of players is going to change that.
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.
It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.
If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.
There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.
This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.
Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.
I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.
I love arguments like this....that when a player refuses to spend 2 hours merely picking up models so the other guy can enjoy "just playing the game" he is somehow being childish. Classic example of a TFG/WAAC attitude......
But that's not what he's saying is it? Read his post properly. He's saying give the damn book a chance before you condemn all eldar players to the same fate and refuse to play us all.
He's simply saying that there is no need to point blank refuse to play end eldar player. Often we see an opponents list before the game starts. Even in friendly games. You'll soon work out if it's a WAAC list. And in that instance no one would blame you for refusing the game. But not everyone will field that kind of list. I for one am looking forward to Fielding aspect warriors for the first time ever. You may also have to accept that there will be those players out there that will want to take on a WAAC eldar list. To some it's the ultimate challenge. And they tend to fight cheese with cheese. So, expect to see those lists floating around.
I think for us eldar players, it's becoming tiresome and boring to hear the complaining and the moaning, but more so to hear the blatant insult that we're receiving when it's insinuated that every eldar player will just spam scatbikes, D weapons and wraithknights.
Pyeatt wrote: Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.
I disagree. In boxing, or martial arts, they organize competition into weight-classes to maximize fair competition. It's pretty obvious intuitively that it is less fair for a heavy-weight competitor to go against a fly-weight competitor. Quite impressive if that fly-weight competitor wins, but certainly unfair and unbalanced. Sometimes some sport disregards these restrictions, like in the case of Sumo, and challengers of all weights compete against each other. In these cases, the heavier wrestlers dominate the top of the brackets. If boxing or other martial arts did this as well, heavy-weight competitors would likely dominate overall.
In general, there is nothing wrong with trying to achieve some sort of 'fairness' through restrictions. Matching up two army-lists as you would two competitors weight-classes seems like one approach to me. In fact, it could be argued that it can make things more competitive when some third variable like size, or weight, are held constant, so that only skill is left as a factor. Of course, it can never truly be achieved, but we can try, right?
Edit:
Similarly, should female competitors have to face male competitors in boxing or other olympic sports? Sometimes fair isn't equal.
apparently you've never played 40k and you're just here for the fake outrage.
You see, in 40k we play with set point limits, and each model has a set point cost. That's why 20 wraith knights don't hunt down two guardsmen on round 1. If you'd like to learn how to play 40k, I'm sure there's rule sets online you can look at. But that was a cute argument.
Let's keep it civil in here, everybody. We're here to discuss how to bring Eldar down to something approaching a balanced power level with other armies, not condescend to each other.
Leth wrote: I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.
That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of
"how many 6's can you roll"
I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.
If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.
Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.
Tsilber wrote: Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...
Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.
Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....
The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.
Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...
The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.
It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.
If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.
There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.
This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.
Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.
I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.
I love arguments like this....that when a player refuses to spend 2 hours merely picking up models so the other guy can enjoy "just playing the game" he is somehow being childish. Classic example of a TFG/WAAC attitude......
Then you either didn't read or didn't understand my statement. If you forfeit a game that has turned against you to the point of impossibility, that's one thing. If you refuse to play a ridiculously spammy list or a list which has been tailored against you, that is also one thing. But when you refuse to play a perfectly reasonable, unspammy list because you have a chip on your shoulder about one unit, or the army in general, then you're being childish. Your opponent brings three lord of war detachments? Probably justified in walking away if all you wanted was a friendly game. Your opponent takes two troop units and you bug out because he's somehow a WAAC player? The problem might be you.
Leth wrote: I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.
That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of
"how many 6's can you roll"
I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.
If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.
Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.
Valid points, but I think the issue is that the guns are very powerful for their points, and it is going to be difficult to eliminate the bikes entirely, especially if they are fielded in large numbers (which their low cost and high-capacity slot make very feasible). They are rightly identified as a high-priority threat, and one of, if not the, powerhouse units of the new codex. They aren't, however, an I-win button.
I think that it sums up the feelings of non-Eldar players in the current situation quite well. The final tagline is quite telling:
"Maybe I should have just stuck with Magic".
Hopefully, myself and others can show that there are more ways to play Eldar than simply monobuild and spam the most OP units in the game.
Goatboy also wrote how bad it would be for Wraithguard to come out of Falcons killing with impunity. Unless he knows something we don't (doubtful), Wraithguard are Bulky and you can't even put them in a Falcon. He's not an Eldar player and really posted a 'sky is falling' which has been no different from what is being posted all over the place right now.
I like how many commenters on his blog disregard everything he said because he named the wrong transport. Found a nit to pick your argument is invalid.
Eldarain wrote: I like how many commenters on his blog disregard everything he said because he named the wrong transport. Found a nit to pick your argument is invalid.
Exalted. Just because Goatboy may not have an in-depth understanding of the Eldar codex doesn't make his article any less valid. It captures the spirit of the moment: many players are angry that the Eldar have been buffed to ridiculous levels.
Sarigar wrote: Goatboy also wrote how bad it would be for Wraithguard to come out of Falcons killing with impunity. Unless he knows something we don't (doubtful), Wraithguard are Bulky and you can't even put them in a Falcon. He's not an Eldar player and really posted a 'sky is falling' which has been no different from what is being posted all over the place right now.
This is what is troubling honestly, the uproar is getting to be so that everything in the book is overpowered. Goatboy is clearly frustrated enough that he is just searching for the worst case scenario, even if its not legal. I know you have not seen Falcons in a long time, but come on man, they can't take a squad of WG. Some people are claiming aspect warriors are apparently cheese now? Yes they got buffed, but no one was taking them except 5 man DA in wave serpents and maybe warp spiders or swooping hawks. It seems like the entire codex, and not just the bikes or the wraithknight, is getting a reputation and its not even out yet.
Tournaments will have some very tough decisions to make, and I understand where he is coming from. No one wants to see slight variations on the same Eldar list on the top tables. Even I don't want to play them and I love Eldar. You all do realize we have to occasionally play against them too, right?
My very optimistic prediction; the backlash for this codex will be ugly at first, just like with Imperial Knights. TFGs will jump on the bike/wraithknight lists and do really well. But, much like all power lists, people will figure out how to beat them. And then Tau and Space Marines will come out, and I am really hoping they get buffed and get the same reception as Eldar
(Honestly, I'd love for Dark Angels to get the Eldar treatment, they are long long overdue).
The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.
A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.
I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.
The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.
Sarigar wrote: The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.
A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.
I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.
The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.
When members of my group complain about Eldar, I will point them to your post and tell them to grow a pair
Sarigar wrote: The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.
A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.
I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.
The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.
You know, I never actually realised quite how offensive the title to this thread actually is.
With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.
However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.
By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.
I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.
Spoletta wrote: If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.
Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.
wuestenfux wrote: Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our Eldar only local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.
Leth wrote: I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.
That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of
"how many 6's can you roll"
I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.
If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.
Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.
LD 8 is fine. Your opponent won't have much to fire back after a volley or two from the bikes. That's what people making your argument don't comprehend. Most Imperial heavy weapons have crap firepower anyway.
Spoletta wrote: If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.
I have so many problems with comments like these.
Why? As it stands, I would forfeit every game to this codex. There's no point in even bothering to try to beat it.
Spoletta wrote: If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.
I have so many problems with comments like these.
I don't.
Bikes have too much firepower for their points. WK's are horrendously under costed.
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
Leth wrote: I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.
That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of
"how many 6's can you roll"
I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.
If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.
Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.
LD 8 is fine. Your opponent won't have much to fire back after a volley or two from the bikes. That's what people making your argument don't comprehend. Most Imperial heavy weapons have crap firepower anyway.
Spoletta wrote: If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.
I have so many problems with comments like these.
Why? As it stands, I would forfeit every game to this codex. There's no point in even bothering to try to beat it.
I can see wanting to auto-forfeit against Wraith or Scatbike spam, but against any Eldar? That's a tad unreasonable.
Yes, Eldar have great firepower. Yes, Eldar have excellent mobility. We are also almost universally T3, and while some units have a 2+ or 3+ save, most have a 4+ or worse. Our vehicles cap out at AV12/12/10.
Beating Eldar is a matter of board control and target prioritization, with a healthy dose of playing to the objective. Is it a hard matchup and a slog for some armies to beat? Yes. Are Eldar unbeatable? No.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
We have the stats - is it really that hard to look at them and say - yep that's broken? We all know that GW are increasingly useless at writing the actual rules.
Do we have to wait another 2 years like we had to with cheese serpents to even get them to approximate a normal unit in anyone else's codex.
I love my Wraith Knight model - paid loads of money to get a special commission job - that does not mean I want it to be a auto win unit........
There are plenty of other candidates for changes - Like say invisibility - but few are as overwhelming and blatant as the new Codex. We may even adopt some of the Aspect Warrior changes to our 6.5 rules but certainly not the fact that every single unit in the Codex got a boost or points drop...............
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.
Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.
Leth wrote: I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.
That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of
"how many 6's can you roll"
I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.
If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.
Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.
This would make sense if the Scatter Laser was a 25 point upgrade to a 25 point unit, in line with the costs of other weapons upgrades and units with similar capabilities. As it is, it's a 10 point upgrade on an already undercosted 17 point model. The whole platform is 27 points. That's the problem. If a Scatterbike was 50 points nobody would be complaining.
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wuestenfux wrote: Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.
I see what you're saying, and I agree with you that every codex has at least one unit that is very strong. The main issues here are internal balance, and which roles those strong units play. Following your example, Heldrakes had a number of limitations that made spamming them a risky proposition.
Heldrakes were murder on MEQs but couldn't touch a lot of vehicles, and if your list was loaded with 5 Heldrakes you'd have other problems as the rest of your army gets tabled before they arrive, with them depending so heavily on Reserves rolls. And, as Ailaros demonstrated with his Power Armor Khorne Berzerker list, even against their most desirable targets, Heldrakes aren't even close to autowin. The problem units in the Eldar codex are numerous, and have very few real drawbacks. And there's no issue with spamming the hell out of them because they don't have the limitations of units like the Heldrake. Scatterbikes can handle anything that isn't AV13 or 14 while scoring the objectives the entire time, while Strength D Scythes are good against literally everything.
"I can see wanting to auto-forfeit against Wraith or Scatbike spam, but against any Eldar? That's a tad unreasonable.
Yes, Eldar have great firepower. Yes, Eldar have excellent mobility. We are also almost universally T3, and while some units have a 2+ or 3+ save, most have a 4+ or worse. Our vehicles cap out at AV12/12/10.
Beating Eldar is a matter of board control and target prioritization, with a healthy dose of playing to the objective. Is it a hard matchup and a slog for some armies to beat? Yes. Are Eldar unbeatable? No."
After seeing what buffs the aspect warriors got, I'm sticking with my plan. Which probably means I'm back on hiatus.
You can't have board control when all your models are dead.
Want to play Eldar the way they're supposed to play?
Pick up Harlequins! Pay a lot of points for some pretty deadly but not insanely stuff that dies when you so much as look at them, but play intelligently and you can pull off big wins by being as hard to grab as the wind.
Note included: High Toughness, Long Range, Cheap Units, Large Enclosed Transports, Large Blasts, Anti-Air, High Armour, Units of Psykers, Aspect Warriors
Just Call 1-HAR-LEQ-UINS (1-427-537-8467). Leave a message at the eternal laugh.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
To be fair if you do a side by side comparison of the knight lancer and str d melee wraith knight. You will clearly see the knoght is nearly identical except it's wasier to kill only has int 5 on the charge and costs 120 points more. If you are comparing the knight to the wraith knight that is the closest comparison you can get and still see how the wraith knight is insanely underpriced.
This is insane to me. The Necron release was strong, but I never once felt like I should handicap myself, change rules, or refuse to play certain models to make my FLGS feel better. I mean yeah, I don't play an army of 24 Wraiths, but that's because I don't actually think they're as good as everyone thinks. I run Orikanstar (which is bs let me tell you what), the Conclave of the Burning One with Nightbringer (which everyone fething hates), and Destroyer Cult (which straight up removes units from the board, no questions asked).
But you know what? It hasn't ruined people's enjoyment, people learned to play with and against them, and we meet up every week. I'm not going to complain if our Eldar player suddenly has an influx of Bikes or dredges out some Wraithguard. I'm not going to pack up and go home if a Wraithknight hits the table. Yeah, they're really damn strong and should cost more. Yeah, the book is probably way over the top compared to most current armies. But I don't think anyone takes the game so seriously that seeing the Craftworld: Eldar book is going to make them refuse to play.
I dunno. Even if you play tourneys, you kind of expect people to run super-tryhard lists. If it's not Eldar with Bikes and Wraithknights, it's gonna be Daemons with Deathstars and Summoning. If it's not that, it's going to be Wolfstar with allies for FNP and Hit and Run. If it's not that, it's going to be Decurion, etc. Maybe I'm trying to be too optimistic, but while the Eldar book seems so good to the point of broken compared to 90% of the books out there, I don't think it's going to ruin the game for me, even when I bring out my non-summoning Daemons.
This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.
Xenomancers wrote: This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.
Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.
I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.
I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.
Xenomancers wrote: This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.
Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.
I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.
I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.
Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of creative and fluffy ways to run the new Eldar if you simply avoid the overpowered/undercosted units. Anyone complaining about the buffs to Aspect Warriors doesn't know what they are talking about.
As for the TFG's, try calling them out. After all, they're simply jumping on the bandwagon to exploit the most broken rules in 7th edition.
Xenomancers wrote: This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.
Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.
I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.
I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.
Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of creative and fluffy ways to run the new Eldar if you simply avoid the overpowered/undercosted units. Anyone complaining about the buffs to Aspect Warriors doesn't know what they are talking about.
As for the TFG's, try calling them out. After all, they're simply jumping on the bandwagon to exploit the most broken rules in 7th edition.
They guyshave been playing eldar for years so I don't think the bandwagon thing will work. anyways, I hope to play against those fun lists sometime instead of the Tourney way. it just comes down to players I guess.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.
Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.
I think you're missing my point my friend. I don't like the fact that an imperial knight errant can drop a large blast on my war walkers that haven't got the speed to get away, a D can get 2D6 armour pen on the whole squad. Twice I've had a squadron of 3 drop to one blast cos of that damn knight.
There are, and will be plenty of counters to these units. The forums have thrown an absolute fit about a book that isn't even out yet. It happens every time there is a new power book released.
I shall take my wraithknight. I've had him for two years. I won't drop him simply because someone is crying about how powerful he is, and isn't creative enough to come up with a counter to it. I certainly won't be changing his points value just because someone thinks it should be more points.
It makes me laugh. Games workshop wrote the rules. And the points values. I'm not saying they do a good or a bad job. But the people screaming about changing the rules, are also the people on YMDC who are so dead set keen on RAW. It seems it's when it suits people.
Well, If the rumours are true, then RAW a wraithknight is 295 points. RAW wraith weapons are D weapons. And RAW I can take as many damn scatter lasers as I want on my bikes. I'm not saying I will do that, or use all of the above. But I can if I want. Because that's what my rules tell me.
I must be blessed to have the gaming group I have. Not one has cried.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.
It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.
Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.
Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.
I think you're missing my point my friend. I don't like the fact that an imperial knight errant can drop a large blast on my war walkers that haven't got the speed to get away, a D can get 2D6 armour pen on the whole squad. Twice I've had a squadron of 3 drop to one blast cos of that damn knight.
There are, and will be plenty of counters to these units. The forums have thrown an absolute fit about a book that isn't even out yet. It happens every time there is a new power book released.
I shall take my wraithknight. I've had him for two years. I won't drop him simply because someone is crying about how powerful he is, and isn't creative enough to come up with a counter to it. I certainly won't be changing his points value just because someone thinks it should be more points.
It makes me laugh. Games workshop wrote the rules. And the points values. I'm not saying they do a good or a bad job. But the people screaming about changing the rules, are also the people on YMDC who are so dead set keen on RAW. It seems it's when it suits people.
Well, If the rumours are true, then RAW a wraithknight is 295 points. RAW wraith weapons are D weapons. And RAW I can take as many damn scatter lasers as I want on my bikes. I'm not saying I will do that, or use all of the above. But I can if I want. Because that's what my rules tell me.
I must be blessed to have the gaming group I have. Not one has cried.
IK are strong - you will see no argument against that from anyone. They do however - die relatively easy to squads that cost about half the points out of a drop pod. They also die pretty easy to standard heavy firepower. Rockets/laz cannons/ plasma guns/melta guns. even str 6/7 spam handels it pretty easily over a few turns. All it does for a few turns is fire a battle cannon a few times each. Half of which should outright miss and the rest will likely be getting cover saves...hardly worth it for 375 points - I've stopped taking them. It will outright eat any unit in CC though - so do a lot of 375 point squads though that don't have a giant easy to kill profile.
Truth118 wrote:It seems the only way to play fair as Eldar will be to play against other Eldar. What fun is that?
I disagree. There are plenty of ways to play Eldar fairly against other armies. It's just a matter of bringing Eldar down to the level of other armies.
partninja wrote:If I have to limit my lists based on what my opponents don't like, I get to limit theirs....
Exactly. You wouldn't play a friendly game against Centstar or Pentatyrant lists. Why should Eldar be any different?
If you play at a club where no one cares what you throw down on the table and there is no discussion on what to bring then this post wasn't directed at you. If your that guy who was binging reverent Titans to your club and claiming your the best player in the world because your expensive model was dropping 4 d blasts before then this post wasn't directed at you. It's likely if your club allowed whatever shenanigans before or just didn't like you then they will continue to do so.
However the new wraith knight is no different then the reverent Titan has Been in the US. They are both gargantuan low models with multiple range d shots. In most cases In either tournaments or clubs they are generally not allowed or you discuss with your opponent if it's ok for you to bring the cheese. Tournaments here either outright ban all low or places all range d low into a ban list. Ether way it's mostly a display shelf model now. Standard Range d on non banned low units will also likely be nerfed or banned. I also expect the general tournament rules here to make all str d into nerfed d scythe version, which is really just a multi wound version of str 10 ap2 with a 33% chance to fail at wounding. So really even though the rest of the elder codex is good other then jet bike hvy weapon spam at 10ppm I don't expect anything else to change at least in the US in regards to comp or club play. And I have a feeling most people are just going to have to deal with overpowered under costed elder skimmers. Honestly those bikes should of been 4+ if not just to balance them with the other elder factions, because it makes no sense how those bikes are better then every other elder race.
"Fair play" is such a relative term. I've met players who thought Vindicators were OP, simply because they played in such a small group
I think a better question all players have to ask themselves is, "Just because I can make a list a certain way, should I?"
Just because Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Seers, and Wraithguard spam are obvious, it doesn't mean one has to use them. The rest of the book is super cool and viable--why not try those units as well.
This mindset applies to GTs/tourneys too. I know tons of guys already rushing to create the nastiest Eldar list possible. However, these lists are so boring and obvious that I can't imagine they will be any fun whatsoever.
I've always found that being a player that does well with the weird and unexpected list is more fun than being the guy who shows up with the cookie-cutter, high-ceiling list. Then again, it is a game we all play for different reasons, so to each their own.
My ultimate point is this--be the change. I don't plan on running Wraithknights, psykers, and D-weapons in my Eldar/DE list. I'll probably cap myself at nine bikes (up from my previous six). I still plan on having the tools to have a shot against all the top lists out there too. I guess we shall see.
JGrand wrote: "Fair play" is such a relative term. I've met players who thought Vindicators were OP, simply because they played in such a small group
I think a better question all players have to ask themselves is, "Just because I can make a list a certain way, should I?"
Just because Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Seers, and Wraithguard spam are obvious, it doesn't mean one has to use them. The rest of the book is super cool and viable--why not try those units as well.
This mindset applies to GTs/tourneys too. I know tons of guys already rushing to create the nastiest Eldar list possible. However, these lists are so boring and obvious that I can't imagine they will be any fun whatsoever.
I've always found that being a player that does well with the weird and unexpected list is more fun than being the guy who shows up with the cookie-cutter, high-ceiling list. Then again, it is a game we all play for different reasons, so to each their own.
My ultimate point is this--be the change. I don't plan on running Wraithknights, psykers, and D-weapons in my Eldar/DE list. I'll probably cap myself at nine bikes (up from my previous six). I still plan on having the tools to have a shot against all the top lists out there too. I guess we shall see.
Exalted. Again, I suspect that the people trying to make the nastiest Eldar tournament lists are going to be in for a rude surprise when the TOs release their personal house rules. The fact that it is a monobuild just means that it will be easier for other armies to come up with ways to counter jetbike spam.
I have always enjoyed using the units out of the 6th edition codex that the internet considers "not competitive". I find it makes me a better player, and makes for more interesting army lists and games.
Exalted. Again, I suspect that the people trying to make the nastiest Eldar tournament lists are going to be in for a rude surprise when the TOs release their personal house rules. The fact that it is a monobuild just means that it will be easier for other armies to come up with ways to counter jetbike spam.
For sure. It is often harder for players to counter something they haven't seen as opposed to the cookie-cutter spam that they have been building to beat for months. NOVA has already ruled against the Wraithknight, so one major offender down for players following that format.
I have always enjoyed using the units out of the 6th edition codex that the internet considers "not competitive". I find it makes me a better player, and makes for more interesting army lists and games.
Agreed--especially when the new books often have tons of untapped potential. Crons are a great example of a codex in which almost every unit can work. People gravitate toward the obvious though. The Eldar book looks like the same, as the new aspect rules seem awesome, yet overshadowed by the neon "easy mode" signs buzzing around ranged D-weapons and Scatbikes.
NOVA Open has banned the Wraithknight (along with other Gargantuan Lord of War). Can't say I blame them.
Until the codex is released, they're adopting a "wait and see" attitude on ranged D, though they do reference a lot of the negative feedback at the LVO about ranged D.
This is big, not least because this probably sets a record for fastest TO ruling. Any groups who play by NOVA-style rules will now have to take a hard look at their local Eldar players' list-building behavior.
The thing is, I can adapt to almost any list and play style. I build lists that are mobile, durable, have assault and ranged etc.
What I can't play around is "How many 6's did he roll" I can try to limit the number of shots but at the end of the day it is down to , not his skill nor mine, its down to did he get those 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote: With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.
However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.
By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.
I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.
Don't let people try to put you down for it. It is a decent thing you are trying to encourage here, and posters like Khaine's Wrath and Pyeatt who state that 'the rules allow me to take such units at such a price and damn anyone elses enjoyment' (paraphrased), are the ones which make it obvious why a broken codex is a bad thing - because there will always be people who abuse it and then try and claim their superiority over others as though it has nothing to do with the strength of the codex. So don't feel shamed - YOU are the type of eldar player that others respect.
astro_nomicon wrote: I get tthat, I was just wondering if its the first time a a codex unit was banned
NoVa are already disallowing several other codex Lords of War like Stompas and Necron Obelisk/Tesseract vaults when they made the ruling. It then extends to Lord of Skulls in Daemonkin and now the Eldar dex that released since making that decision.
Adepticon champs 2015 had a similar ban via the restriction on the cost of Lords of War (so Stompa and Tesseract Vault were not allowed IIRC).
TheNewBlood wrote: With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.
However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.
By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.
I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.
Don't let people try to put you down for it. It is a decent thing you are trying to encourage here, and posters like Khaine's Wrath and Pyeatt who state that 'the rules allow me to take such units at such a price and damn anyone elses enjoyment' (paraphrased), are the ones which make it obvious why a broken codex is a bad thing - because there will always be people who abuse it and then try and claim their superiority over others as though it has nothing to do with the strength of the codex. So don't feel shamed - YOU are the type of eldar player that others respect.
Trust me when I tell you, I am not one of those guys. And I never will be. If I use those units, it will be in moderation and in a very competitive way.
I have a friendly tournament coming up. The rules were written for it today. As the new book hasn't been released yet, the TO made some big calls. The wraithknight is banned. I have no problem with that as he's always banned gargantuan monstrous creatures. He also bans imperial Knights. So, no complaints from me there.
He has also decided to ban all ranged D. Not really something he had to state before. Again it doesn't bother me that much, because I still think the codex is deadly.
Interestingly he has said that he doesn't think there will be a ban on it in the future. But will see what the book brings. Mostly because he knows people won't spam them.
I've been an iyanden player for years. I'm gutted I can't run a wraith host without being TFG. But I won't change the rules just to take them. I either won't take them, or it'll be in moderation in a competitive environment.
I have played chaos Khorne for as long as I can remember. So I know what it's like to be on the back foot ALL the time. For the odds to always be against me. BUT. Not once did it cry about it.
as i dont fully understand the extent of rumours going round etc, could someone please tell me whether a 1500 point army, with 5 d-scythe guard and 5 cc guard is spam? or should i change the d-scythe to wraith cannon?
but basically, what i understand is that as long as you play fluff armies (apart from saim hann?) - you wont be TFG? is this a fair analogy? if im chatting rubbish just say
astro_nomicon wrote: Is it not also (at least within 6th/7th) the first time that TOs have banned a non-FW unit?
Nova ban all super heavy and gargantuan LoWs including baneblades and stompas and tesseract vault both made by gw.
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Colonel Nicholson wrote: as i dont fully understand the extent of rumours going round etc, could someone please tell me whether a 1500 point army, with 5 d-scythe guard and 5 cc guard is spam? or should i change the d-scythe to wraith cannon?
but basically, what i understand is that as long as you play fluff armies (apart from saim hann?) - you wont be TFG? is this a fair analogy? if im chatting rubbish just say
There might be some slight knee jerk reaction to the idea of d scythe str d however I don't foresee major tournaments banning dscythe d. Once people play vs it they will realize it's not so bad. It's essentially str 10 ap2 that can do multi wounds but also fails to wound 33% of the time. Kinda rough vs vehicles but in most cases it has a limited range so it's not that much better then melta. In other words IMHO it's fine. Now if you run around with 2+ wraith knights w d canons then that's somethingelse
Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies. While it's a great weapon against Deathstars, Vehicles, and MCs, it's quite bad against many other units like Khorne Dogs or even Guard Blobs. Because it fails to wound entirely on a 1 or 2, it's effectively back to being a S4 AP2 Flamer against T3 targets, and most T3 targets have only a single wound, so the multiple wounds from a D-weapon doesn't do any additional damage. It's still a very nasty weapon and it's still a buff in general, the D-scythe's buff still retains some moderation.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies. While it's a great weapon against Deathstars, Vehicles, and MCs, it's quite bad against many other units like Khorne Dogs or even Guard Blobs. Because it fails to wound entirely on a 1 or 2, it's effectively back to being a S4 AP2 Flamer against T3 targets, and most T3 targets have only a single wound, so the multiple wounds from a D-weapon doesn't do any additional damage. It's still a very nasty weapon and it's still a buff in general, the D-scythe's buff still retains some moderation.
Right, and that's why the NOVA Open TOs are considering allowing it. It just seems too good to me though. The Wraithcannon, however, is still the full D, and should be treated as such (i.e. banned).
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies. While it's a great weapon against Deathstars, Vehicles, and MCs, it's quite bad against many other units like Khorne Dogs or even Guard Blobs. Because it fails to wound entirely on a 1 or 2, it's effectively back to being a S4 AP2 Flamer against T3 targets, and most T3 targets have only a single wound, so the multiple wounds from a D-weapon doesn't do any additional damage. It's still a very nasty weapon and it's still a buff in general, the D-scythe's buff still retains some moderation.
Right, and that's why the NOVA Open TOs are considering allowing it. It just seems too good to me though. The Wraithcannon, however, is still the full D, and should be treated as such (i.e. banned).
I think banning it is a little unfair. Especially for those of us that have invested decent money in to them.
My proposal, and I hate that I'm going to suggest this, mostly as my gaming group are fine with it as it is, but apply the same -1 penalty to the D strength that the scythes get and they're not that bad. Considering they used to be strength 10, not wounding on a 1 or a 2 actually makes them a little worse.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies. While it's a great weapon against Deathstars, Vehicles, and MCs, it's quite bad against many other units like Khorne Dogs or even Guard Blobs. Because it fails to wound entirely on a 1 or 2, it's effectively back to being a S4 AP2 Flamer against T3 targets, and most T3 targets have only a single wound, so the multiple wounds from a D-weapon doesn't do any additional damage. It's still a very nasty weapon and it's still a buff in general, the D-scythe's buff still retains some moderation.
Right, and that's why the NOVA Open TOs are considering allowing it. It just seems too good to me though. The Wraithcannon, however, is still the full D, and should be treated as such (i.e. banned).
I think banning it is a little unfair. Especially for those of us that have invested decent money in to them.
My proposal, and I hate that I'm going to suggest this, mostly as my gaming group are fine with it as it is, but apply the same -1 penalty to the D strength that the scythes get and they're not that bad. Considering they used to be strength 10, not wounding on a 1 or a 2 actually makes them a little worse.
I agree that is one solution. I can see tournaments adopting something similar to it. The problem is that it could be argued that it still makes Wraithguard too good for their points cost.
I personally would advocate for the 6th ed. Distort rules, but go right ahead if your gaming group is fine with it. Different house rules will work better with different people.
I think you're missing my point my friend. I don't like the fact that an imperial knight errant can drop a large blast on my war walkers that haven't got the speed to get away,
Not liking something, and recognizing that something is overpowered, are different things.
IK are competitive, adamantine lance is borderline overpowered, but the new IK and bikes just blow them out of the water.
A squad of DW terminators with upgrades costs 270 points.
10 Jetbikes costs 270 points and will kill 3-4 terminators at 36 range per turn.
Technically, you're not playing the same game when going against Codex: Scabikers and D weapons. Though in your case you are comparing armies at literally the opposite ends of the 40k power scale.
TheNewBlood wrote: With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.
However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.
By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.
I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.
Don't let people try to put you down for it. It is a decent thing you are trying to encourage here, and posters like Khaine's Wrath and Pyeatt who state that 'the rules allow me to take such units at such a price and damn anyone elses enjoyment' (paraphrased), are the ones which make it obvious why a broken codex is a bad thing - because there will always be people who abuse it and then try and claim their superiority over others as though it has nothing to do with the strength of the codex. So don't feel shamed - YOU are the type of eldar player that others respect.
Trust me when I tell you, I am not one of those guys. And I never will be. If I use those units, it will be in moderation and in a very competitive way.
I have a friendly tournament coming up. The rules were written for it today. As the new book hasn't been released yet, the TO made some big calls. The wraithknight is banned. I have no problem with that as he's always banned gargantuan monstrous creatures. He also bans imperial Knights. So, no complaints from me there.
He has also decided to ban all ranged D. Not really something he had to state before. Again it doesn't bother me that much, because I still think the codex is deadly.
Interestingly he has said that he doesn't think there will be a ban on it in the future. But will see what the book brings. Mostly because he knows people won't spam them.
I've been an iyanden player for years. I'm gutted I can't run a wraith host without being TFG. But I won't change the rules just to take them. I either won't take them, or it'll be in moderation in a competitive environment.
I have played chaos Khorne for as long as I can remember. So I know what it's like to be on the back foot ALL the time. For the odds to always be against me. BUT. Not once did it cry about it.
Fair enough - it just sounded that that was what you were advocating in this thread. I apologise if that is not what you are like/meant to convey. At least you are not seeming to put posts down just to get a rise out of people, unlike Pyeatt. The issue is there WILL be people who will assume a superiority complex due to this codex... even more so than the last one. (Not saying that will be a majority - but even the odd ones will start to get grating on the nerves).
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Not entirely sure that's a fair comparison though. Terminators are inherently bad for the points cost and almost always have been.
They are both legal units in the same game. It's an entirely fair comparison.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Technically you're not playing the same game? So, technically speaking, how many games have you played against this book?
Touche. Again, we don't have the codex I hand yet, so we're limited only to the information that has been spoiled to us. I still think that the points made regarding jetbikes are valid.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies.
I think not as broken is the right way to pitch it.
I'm not sold on wraith guard with cannons being better than fire dragons.
I think firedragons are going to be doing the same job, for less points. Strength D vs S8 Melta with an extra +1 to the damage table is pretty much a wash. Either unit will destroy what it's pointed at.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies.
I think not as broken is the right way to pitch it.
I'm not sold on wraith guard with cannons being better than fire dragons.
I think firedragons are going to be doing the same job, for less points. Strength D vs S8 Melta with an extra +1 to the damage table is pretty much a wash. Either unit will destroy what it's pointed at.
-Matt
Sort of. Both will remove vehicles from the table, or drop small units like Devestator squads in the same amount of time.
However, against things with good Invuln saves, multi wound blobs, or high toughness MCs, D is superior by leaps and bounds. D is also a much harder counter to Deathstar type units, and is better against things that rely on Invisibility. For example, if you're facing a Daemon Prince with Invisiblity, one Fire Dragon getting a 6 to hit is going to strip a wound. One Wraithguard getting a 6 to hit is going to strip d3 wounds and possibly instantly remove it from the table.
In most situations, they're going to be the same. But the bigger and scarier the targets get, the more the Wraithguard will be worth the points. So I guess it depends on the enemy.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies.
I think not as broken is the right way to pitch it.
I'm not sold on wraith guard with cannons being better than fire dragons.
I think firedragons are going to be doing the same job, for less points. Strength D vs S8 Melta with an extra +1 to the damage table is pretty much a wash. Either unit will destroy what it's pointed at.
-Matt
Sort of. Both will remove vehicles from the table, or drop small units like Devestator squads in the same amount of time.
However, against things with good Invuln saves, multi wound blobs, or high toughness MCs, D is superior by leaps and bounds. D is also a much harder counter to Deathstar type units, and is better against things that rely on Invisibility. For example, if you're facing a Daemon Prince with Invisiblity, one Fire Dragon getting a 6 to hit is going to strip a wound. One Wraithguard getting a 6 to hit is going to strip d3 wounds and possibly instantly remove it from the table.
In most situations, they're going to be the same. But the bigger and scarier the targets get, the more the Wraithguard will be worth the points. So I guess it depends on the enemy.
And for the cost, you're getting twice as many firedragon shots. I'd rather have twice the volume than bank on rolling both 6's to hit and 6's to wound/destroyer table.
If my quick math is right, Vs Multi-wound blobs, it has to be T5 or T4 with 3+ invul (or eternal warrior). Anything else puts the advantage in the hands of twice as many shots.
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies.
I think not as broken is the right way to pitch it.
I'm not sold on wraith guard with cannons being better than fire dragons.
I think firedragons are going to be doing the same job, for less points. Strength D vs S8 Melta with an extra +1 to the damage table is pretty much a wash. Either unit will destroy what it's pointed at.
-Matt
Sort of. Both will remove vehicles from the table, or drop small units like Devestator squads in the same amount of time.
However, against things with good Invuln saves, multi wound blobs, or high toughness MCs, D is superior by leaps and bounds. D is also a much harder counter to Deathstar type units, and is better against things that rely on Invisibility. For example, if you're facing a Daemon Prince with Invisiblity, one Fire Dragon getting a 6 to hit is going to strip a wound. One Wraithguard getting a 6 to hit is going to strip d3 wounds and possibly instantly remove it from the table.
In most situations, they're going to be the same. But the bigger and scarier the targets get, the more the Wraithguard will be worth the points. So I guess it depends on the enemy.
And for the cost, you're getting twice as many firedragon shots. I'd rather have twice the volume than bank on rolling both 6's to hit and 6's to wound/destroyer table.
If my quick math is right, Vs Multi-wound blobs, it has to be T5 or T4 with 3+ invul (or eternal warrior). Anything else puts the advantage in the hands of twice as many shots.
True, I won't argue that. But if you play in a meta with things like TWC Deathstar, Grimoire'd and Invis'd Daemons, or Orikanstar, then that's not that uncommon. I just think both have their place.
Personally, my Necrons are much more scared of the Wraithguard. Fire Dragons only give a -1 to RP against certain units - only T4 or lower are Warriors, Crypteks, Immortals, Flayed Ones, and Scarabs. Everything else is T5 or higher. Wraiths and Lychguard in particular couldn't care less about the Fire Dragon's guns. But Wraithguard with SD? That scares me.
I suppose it's different for other armies who don't have RP
Thariinye wrote: Mike Brandt did make a very good point in his post -- that the -1 D-Scythe Wraithguard aren't as broken as the D implies.
I think not as broken is the right way to pitch it.
I'm not sold on wraith guard with cannons being better than fire dragons.
I think firedragons are going to be doing the same job, for less points. Strength D vs S8 Melta with an extra +1 to the damage table is pretty much a wash. Either unit will destroy what it's pointed at.
-Matt
Sort of. Both will remove vehicles from the table, or drop small units like Devestator squads in the same amount of time.
However, against things with good Invuln saves, multi wound blobs, or high toughness MCs, D is superior by leaps and bounds. D is also a much harder counter to Deathstar type units, and is better against things that rely on Invisibility. For example, if you're facing a Daemon Prince with Invisiblity, one Fire Dragon getting a 6 to hit is going to strip a wound. One Wraithguard getting a 6 to hit is going to strip d3 wounds and possibly instantly remove it from the table.
In most situations, they're going to be the same. But the bigger and scarier the targets get, the more the Wraithguard will be worth the points. So I guess it depends on the enemy.
And for the cost, you're getting twice as many firedragon shots. I'd rather have twice the volume than bank on rolling both 6's to hit and 6's to wound/destroyer table.
If my quick math is right, Vs Multi-wound blobs, it has to be T5 or T4 with 3+ invul (or eternal warrior). Anything else puts the advantage in the hands of twice as many shots.
True, I won't argue that. But if you play in a meta with things like TWC Deathstar, Grimoire'd and Invis'd Daemons, or Orikanstar, then that's not that uncommon. I just think both have their place.
Personally, my Necrons are much more scared of the Wraithguard. Fire Dragons only give a -1 to RP against certain units - only T4 or lower are Warriors, Crypteks, Immortals, Flayed Ones, and Scarabs. Everything else is T5 or higher. Wraiths and Lychguard in particular couldn't care less about the Fire Dragon's guns. But Wraithguard with SD? That scares me.
I suppose it's different for other armies who don't have RP
This is why tournaments are considering allowing the ranged D option. It is a hard counter to most of the "deathstar" units played at the highly competitive level.
The problem is, as Leth said, that D doesn't scale at all. It is effective at countering deathstars, but it's even more effective at countering everything else.
Leth wrote: I would rather address the root of the problem(Invis, 2+re-roll etc) than to bring in a nuke(d weapons) as an excuse to include them.
the arms races helps no one
I'm not saying that including D weapons is a good idea, only that at a tournament level it would provide a counter to the popular deathstars.
Besides, most tournaments have house rules regarding the examples you mentioned, ex: ITC changing 2++ re-roll to 2++/4++. and allowing Blast weapons to shoot at invisible units/scatter onto them.
Leth wrote: I would rather address the root of the problem(Invis, 2+re-roll etc) than to bring in a nuke(d weapons) as an excuse to include them.
the arms races helps no one
I'm not saying that including D weapons is a good idea, only that at a tournament level it would provide a counter to the popular deathstars.
Besides, most tournaments have house rules regarding the examples you mentioned, ex: ITC changing 2++ re-roll to 2++/4++. and allowing Blast weapons to shoot at invisible units/scatter onto them.
Exactly and I agree with that approach. I think when something breaks the bank you make a change to limit it, not remove it
It seems that most of the initial wave of anger at the new Eldar codex has abated on these boards. Now instead of rage threads full of complaining, we have more threads just being snarky or trying to adapt certain armies to the new codex, which are only somewhat composed of complaining.
At this point, I guess we should take what we can get.
I am really frustrated by the fact that a product out of the box from GW will be this badly broken. The thing is that there's no point in talking about it because there's almost unilateral agreement from the community. GW is an incommunicado, intractable, silent monolith, and they don't have a great reputation for balancing their games, so I doubt anything will happen in the near future.
pickled_heretic wrote: I am really frustrated by the fact that a product out of the box from GW will be this badly broken. The thing is that there's no point in talking about it because there's almost unilateral agreement from the community. GW is an incommunicado, intractable, silent monolith, and they don't have a great reputation for balancing their games, so I doubt anything will happen in the near future.
You're right. GW will not be helping to sort out a mess of their own creation. I will be up to the players themselves to bring Eldar down to the power level of other armies.
My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.
Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.
Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.
Iechine wrote: My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.
Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.
Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.
That is why I cannot stand the apologists who use TO house rules as a talking point as to why it is not a big deal. It is a big deal because 90% of the player base games outside comped events and for them its now a lose lose situation. They either kneecap themselves to make it more "fair" which makes their opponent feeling crappy because they clubbed your baby seal version of a list, or they make the list still "too competitive" and any win they get is due to playing a WAAC army. Either way, it's poor rules design to put game balance solely in the hands of one player during list design.
Honestly, you play to the level of game you want to play.
If you are playing me? Bring whatever level of list, I want the practice playing it.
Do I bring my tournament lists to my local store for regular games? Nope, I bring something else(this year its dreadnaughts). Am I an Eldar player? Nope but I recognize that I am either a better player/know the rules better than a majority of the people around me and so I lower the power level of my lists so that they can have fun at the same time as I do while also bringing out some other units I never get to use.
So for eldar if you are playing at the local level, dont bring the over the top stuff, still make a good list just not the most optimized list. There are plenty of things in the eldar book that are worth taking, even if they are not the BEST in that book.
Second you can still take the units, but dont spam them. Dont take 40 scatter bikes + 30 WG. Maybe take 10 bikes, or not upgrade everyone.
When I was overseas I would play my 1850 list against their 2000 point lists, I would limit myself to two detachments while they were completely open, etc. For me there is no fun in a easy win, I see it as a challenge and it makes a win all the sweeter.
Skerr wrote: I know this has been brought up though perhaps all future codexes will get the Magic Mushroom power up...
It may take awhile, less GW continues to pump out dexes at break neck speed.
Wonder if we will see any 40k game-wide eratta anytime soon.
Considering 7th isn't even a year old yet and was a rushed patch for 6th I doubt it. Frankly they were doing fine until Necrons, heck harlequins and skitarri are great, but this eldar release is insane.
Honestly, you play to the level of game you want to play.
If you are playing me? Bring whatever level of list, I want the practice playing it.
Do I bring my tournament lists to my local store for regular games? Nope, I bring something else(this year its dreadnaughts). Am I an Eldar player? Nope but I recognize that I am either a better player/know the rules better than a majority of the people around me and so I lower the power level of my lists so that they can have fun at the same time as I do while also bringing out some other units I never get to use.
So for eldar if you are playing at the local level, dont bring the over the top stuff, still make a good list just not the most optimized list. There are plenty of things in the eldar book that are worth taking, even if they are not the BEST in that book.
Second you can still take the units, but dont spam them. Dont take 40 scatter bikes + 30 WG. Maybe take 10 bikes, or not upgrade everyone.
This exactly. Know what kind of game your opponents want to play. Most importantly, know what game you want to play. If you find the right crowd, you will have no issues either way.
Iechine wrote: My wife plays Eldar, we had this discussion. Essentially, it's a no win.
Take me, a Tyranid player. I can walk into the FLGS with my army, and play a pickup game with no guilt whatsoever even using some of our competitive, finer units in the dex. But an Eldar player has to hamstring herself VERY actively to play even friendly games now (far moreso than before, and even that was bad). It's a lose lose for her, either she uses the very obviously awesome runaway tools at her disposal or she is forced to go WAY out of her way to even approach being fair.
Any brilliant games she could be playing with her army are brought low by the insane power creep of her codex. Which sucks, because she likes Eldar and started them in 5th, only to see them become a monster.
That is why I cannot stand the apologists who use TO house rules as a talking point as to why it is not a big deal. It is a big deal because 90% of the player base games outside comped events and for them its now a lose lose situation. They either kneecap themselves to make it more "fair" which makes their opponent feeling crappy because they clubbed your baby seal version of a list, or they make the list still "too competitive" and any win they get is due to playing a WAAC army. Either way, it's poor rules design to put game balance solely in the hands of one player during list design.
I don't think that TO house rules are the the solution to the problem, and agree that it still poses a problem to casual/friendly players. What is helpful about TO rulings is that it gives players some ideas for their own local house rules.
At the end of the day, like most competitive games, Warhammer 40k is dependent upon both players having a conversation about what kind of game they want to have. Are some armies better in this area than others? Undoubtedly. But I would argue that Eldar can still put up a good fight in friendly contexts.
Eldar are a hard matchup for many of the armies out there due to their suitability to the meta; they have the speed to grab objectives, the firepower to put up a fight, and the MSU to secure objectives. But if you take out the spam and cheese elements, even with the buffs to Aspect Warriors, there are plenty of ways for other armies to deal with Eldar without resorting to list-tailoring.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit for double post.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The codex is out of the bag. As it turns out, we aren't the victims of a massive hoax: all of the rumored changes are true.
Fortunately, as I stated previously, the anger in these boards has given way to something resembling acceptance, as people struggle to find ways that their army can deal with Scatriders and 5 D-flamers for 210 points. Truly we live in dark times, as the perfidious Eldar look to secure their dominance over the 40k playerbase the only way they know how: massive doses of cheese and spam.
I'll update the OP once I get the codex in hand. Nothing that hasn't been discussed has changed.
Now non-Eldar players are trying to find ways to deal with the new codex now that people have it in hand and are beginning to use it on the tabletop. I don't envy them.
To be fair, from an eldar players point of view, and having seen most of the new book, there's actually some beautiful lists to be built without the afore mentioned cheese and spam. Some really nice and powerful combinations using aspect warriors in particular. They've done such a nice job with the book in that respect. It's a shame they've undone some of their hard work in others.
Personally, I'm pretty happy. I wanted to field an aspect list in 6th,but it wasn't quite good enough. Now I think they have the tools. Looking on the bright side and all that.
I'm sure something along these lines will have already come up in the discussion, but I'll say it anyway: if your playing a game where the winning really matters (ie tournament play) then there just needs to be some form of comp like there is fir fantasy. I mostly play WHFB and every event I attend has different comp rules that try to balance out the power spectrum of the army books. Afaik this has never really been done before in 40K (correct me if I'm wrong), and I don't know why. I'm genuinely interested about this actually.
Again if the game you're playing is a pick up or down your local club then you should know what you're in for before you start and adjust the power of your list accordingly. Although I do understand that that last point may be difficult with the new book.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: To be fair, from an eldar players point of view, and having seen most of the new book, there's actually some beautiful lists to be built without the afore mentioned cheese and spam. Some really nice and powerful combinations using aspect warriors in particular. They've done such a nice job with the book in that respect. It's a shame they've undone some of their hard work in others.
Personally, I'm pretty happy. I wanted to field an aspect list in 6th,but it wasn't quite good enough. Now I think they have the tools. Looking on the bright side and all that.
Well said. A long time Eldar player here locally used to play Shinning Spears (with no wave serpents) when everyone said they were crap and not worth taking. He walked all over the net lists that a few unfortunate players thought would give them the auto win.
I'm looking forward to all the cool and unexpected combinations that seem possible with this codex. It so dense that I will be busy for a long time trying out really cool list ideas.
I'm sure some of the more casual players here may grumble because the codex has a really nasty reputation. My plan is to try out unconventional ideas and make sure we both have a fun game.
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anyways, I hope to play against those fun lists sometime instead of the Tourney way. it just comes down to players I guess.
