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Why should Eldar not bring 5 wave serpents? Because GW is lazy?

Martel732 wrote:
Why should Eldar not bring 5 wave serpents? Because GW is lazy?

Because no one in a casual/friendly context will want to play you if you bring 5 Wave Serpents, or spam Wraith units/Scatriders.

Just because GW makes rules that are easily exploitable doesn't mean you should exploit them. And if I were constantly confronted with people bringing the cheesiest lists possible, I would find other, more friendly players.

Besides, didn't you hear? The Serpent Shield was finally nerfed!

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
He's got a point. I'm of the belief and liking that GW doesn't write rules to be balanced or competitive, they write them to be, more than anything, fun.

Losing half your army in a turn and/or needing to play three times as good as your opponent in order to have a chance of winning due to the imbalance in power between your codices is not "fun".

This is a core point, and I don't really understand why people struggle so much to understand it:

Game unbalance makes games unfun. Fact. There is a direct correlation between power unbalance in this game and resentment/hurt feelings/feeling like you've wasted your time/money etc.

Every once in a while, I think about how 40k can be changed for the better. To make it more tactical, more balanced, easier to grasp but with a solid amount of depth. Perhaps with some of the Warmachine or Dropzone Commander mechanics. A group of us drove down to Vegas for the LVO, and on that long drive we talked about all the things that could be fixed to make the game better. At some point, we all stopped and realized it was an exercise in futility.

I remember being surprised when Matt from Miniwargaming years ago flat out said that 40K is unbalanced, period, end of story. But he was right. This game will never be balanced. We can want it, we can demand it with boycotts or emails, but we won't get it. You can either accept that, or continue to be frustrated by it.

I think you can have fun with an unbalanced game. I like the modeling part myself, the social part with my friends, narrative and casual games, and yes, even competitive games. But there has to be a social contract between players. Even tournaments are a form of forced social contract really, with unique missions and restrictions to force players to adhere to standards to allow for everyone to have fun.

You're right about a social contract involved for 40K, but social contracts aren't fun either. It's one thing to play with a tight-knit group of friends, but with strangers or people you know only kind of well it can be a very uncomfortable conversation to have for both parties. It's like,



Even if you reach a "compromise", which is basically just one player not being able to use the stuff they want to use, it's an awkward conversation. There's nothing fun about being told that feth you you're not allowed to use the units you've spent money and time on building, and there's nothing fun about having to tell someone that you need them to handicap themselves because the army that you've spent time and money building is too weak to handle theirs. It's actually kind of embarrassing.

So yeah, it's not really a win for anyone. And the thing about 40K always being unbalanced is that it doesn't have to be. The only reason GW pulls these stunts is because people enable them by continuing to buy their products and defend their business practices. Personally, I've been playing 40K for free on vassal for years, and I was starting to save up money to buy actual models but decided not to when 7th edition came out as I felt that I couldn't in good conscience support such anti-customer practices with my money. So instead I continue to just play for free on vassal and torrent the rules. You're not a "bad person" or whatever if you buy GW products, but you are tacitly supporting their business decisions.

So a couple questions and thoughts:

The Seer council in general got a nerf, right? Farseers maintained their strength, and got some new goodies like manifest on 3+. However, the Warlock Council itself is a Brotherhood of Psykers ML2 now. That means they only generate 2 psychic dice. Pretty nice nerf. It also means that Warlocks won't have massive amounts of psychic power options. They get two spells and the primaris and thats it. Big deal? In order toget mass access to Warlock powers and Dice, Eldar will need to add them to squads as upgrades.

Has someone done the math on each of the Formations for the Warhost detatchment? It's 895+ points to include Wraith units in a Warhost, right?

Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

I disagree. In boxing, or martial arts, they organize competition into weight-classes to maximize fair competition. It's pretty obvious intuitively that it is less fair for a heavy-weight competitor to go against a fly-weight competitor. Quite impressive if that fly-weight competitor wins, but certainly unfair and unbalanced. Sometimes some sport disregards these restrictions, like in the case of Sumo, and challengers of all weights compete against each other. In these cases, the heavier wrestlers dominate the top of the brackets. If boxing or other martial arts did this as well, heavy-weight competitors would likely dominate overall.

In general, there is nothing wrong with trying to achieve some sort of 'fairness' through restrictions. Matching up two army-lists as you would two competitors weight-classes seems like one approach to me. In fact, it could be argued that it can make things more competitive when some third variable like size, or weight, are held constant, so that only skill is left as a factor. Of course, it can never truly be achieved, but we can try, right?

Edit:
Similarly, should female competitors have to face male competitors in boxing or other olympic sports? Sometimes fair isn't equal.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

Sure like an infant child being given the freedom to use anything within his area of influence to his benefit vs a modern day special forces operative given the benefits found within his sphere of influence and both under same rules are told to have at it. Technically fair. On top of it all it's ok that the Marine should expect a line up of willing infant childs ready for the slaughter and oughta take offence should any of these infant children get out of line and not take up the challenge.
/sarcasm

rollawaythestone wrote:So a couple questions and thoughts:

The Seer council in general got a nerf, right? Farseers maintained their strength, and got some new goodies like manifest on 3+. However, the Warlock Council itself is a Brotherhood of Psykers ML2 now. That means they only generate 2 psychic dice. Pretty nice nerf. It also means that Warlocks won't have massive amounts of psychic power options. They get two spells and the primaris and thats it. Big deal? In order toget mass access to Warlock powers and Dice, Eldar will need to add them to squads as upgrades.

Has someone done the math on each of the Formations for the Warhost detatchment? It's 895+ points to include Wraith units in a Warhost, right?

If we're going by the points costs in the old codex, then at a minimum it would be 805, though over 1000 points would produce an optimal list. And in a Warhost, you have to take the Guardian core, which is around 950 points. However, we don't know if the points costs have changed for all the units in the book (Wraithguard are the same points: 160 for 5 D weapons ).

Pyeatt wrote:Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

Sure it would be fair, but would it be fair to your opponent? Just asking.

The word fair is pretty subjective.

It's reasonable to say that both sides having full access to all the options available in their army books is fair.

It's also reasonable to say that both sides having an approximately equal chance at victory is fair.

Personally, I tend to come down on the side of number one. Deployment, mission, matchup: a game of 40k is going to start on an unlevel playing field pretty much every time. I don't think handicapping one group of players is going to change that.

Goatboy over at Bell of Lost Souls has a decent article about the new Eldar: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/goatboy-hello-metagame-shift-eldar-edition.html

I think that it sums up the feelings of non-Eldar players in the current situation quite well. The final tagline is quite telling:

"Maybe I should have just stuck with Magic".

Hopefully, myself and others can show that there are more ways to play Eldar than simply monobuild and spam the most OP units in the game.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.

I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.

I love arguments like this....that when a player refuses to spend 2 hours merely picking up models so the other guy can enjoy "just playing the game" he is somehow being childish. Classic example of a TFG/WAAC attitude......

But that's not what he's saying is it? Read his post properly. He's saying give the damn book a chance before you condemn all eldar players to the same fate and refuse to play us all.

He's simply saying that there is no need to point blank refuse to play end eldar player. Often we see an opponents list before the game starts. Even in friendly games. You'll soon work out if it's a WAAC list. And in that instance no one would blame you for refusing the game. But not everyone will field that kind of list. I for one am looking forward to Fielding aspect warriors for the first time ever. You may also have to accept that there will be those players out there that will want to take on a WAAC eldar list. To some it's the ultimate challenge. And they tend to fight cheese with cheese. So, expect to see those lists floating around.

I think for us eldar players, it's becoming tiresome and boring to hear the complaining and the moaning, but more so to hear the blatant insult that we're receiving when it's insinuated that every eldar player will just spam scatbikes, D weapons and wraithknights.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

I disagree. In boxing, or martial arts, they organize competition into weight-classes to maximize fair competition. It's pretty obvious intuitively that it is less fair for a heavy-weight competitor to go against a fly-weight competitor. Quite impressive if that fly-weight competitor wins, but certainly unfair and unbalanced. Sometimes some sport disregards these restrictions, like in the case of Sumo, and challengers of all weights compete against each other. In these cases, the heavier wrestlers dominate the top of the brackets. If boxing or other martial arts did this as well, heavy-weight competitors would likely dominate overall.

In general, there is nothing wrong with trying to achieve some sort of 'fairness' through restrictions. Matching up two army-lists as you would two competitors weight-classes seems like one approach to me. In fact, it could be argued that it can make things more competitive when some third variable like size, or weight, are held constant, so that only skill is left as a factor. Of course, it can never truly be achieved, but we can try, right?

Edit:
Similarly, should female competitors have to face male competitors in boxing or other olympic sports? Sometimes fair isn't equal.

apparently you've never played 40k and you're just here for the fake outrage.

You see, in 40k we play with set point limits, and each model has a set point cost. That's why 20 wraith knights don't hunt down two guardsmen on round 1. If you'd like to learn how to play 40k, I'm sure there's rule sets online you can look at. But that was a cute argument.

Let's keep it civil in here, everybody. We're here to discuss how to bring Eldar down to something approaching a balanced power level with other armies, not condescend to each other.

I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

Make the wraith knight 395 + weapon up grades.

that's my only beef with the book.

D weapons don't really scare boyz. 5 D hits only kills 5 boyz. When you have 100 + models and no vehicles. They don't seem as scary.

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

Exalted. My thoughts exactly.

Then again, we don't have the codex fully revealed to us yet. I could have to add more to that dread list on the OP...

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

Just play the game. If you don't run spammy cheesy lists you'll be fine. If your opponents are like, "oh you took two squads of Jetbikes, not happening bro," then you will probably be better off finding an opponent who isn't so childish.

I for one can't wait to have troops that will serve a function in my lists. Paying a troop tax in order to get Farseers into my DE lists was irritating when they served no function outside of tactical objective games.

I love arguments like this....that when a player refuses to spend 2 hours merely picking up models so the other guy can enjoy "just playing the game" he is somehow being childish. Classic example of a TFG/WAAC attitude......

Then you either didn't read or didn't understand my statement. If you forfeit a game that has turned against you to the point of impossibility, that's one thing. If you refuse to play a ridiculously spammy list or a list which has been tailored against you, that is also one thing. But when you refuse to play a perfectly reasonable, unspammy list because you have a chip on your shoulder about one unit, or the army in general, then you're being childish. Your opponent brings three lord of war detachments? Probably justified in walking away if all you wanted was a friendly game. Your opponent takes two troop units and you bug out because he's somehow a WAAC player? The problem might be you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

Valid points, but I think the issue is that the guns are very powerful for their points, and it is going to be difficult to eliminate the bikes entirely, especially if they are fielded in large numbers (which their low cost and high-capacity slot make very feasible). They are rightly identified as a high-priority threat, and one of, if not the, powerhouse units of the new codex. They aren't, however, an I-win button.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Goatboy over at Bell of Lost Souls has a decent article about the new Eldar: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/goatboy-hello-metagame-shift-eldar-edition.html

I think that it sums up the feelings of non-Eldar players in the current situation quite well. The final tagline is quite telling:

"Maybe I should have just stuck with Magic".

Hopefully, myself and others can show that there are more ways to play Eldar than simply monobuild and spam the most OP units in the game.

Goatboy also wrote how bad it would be for Wraithguard to come out of Falcons killing with impunity. Unless he knows something we don't (doubtful), Wraithguard are Bulky and you can't even put them in a Falcon. He's not an Eldar player and really posted a 'sky is falling' which has been no different from what is being posted all over the place right now.

Same thing, instead of falcons, ally in DE.

I like how many commenters on his blog disregard everything he said because he named the wrong transport. Found a nit to pick your argument is invalid.

 Eldarain wrote:
I like how many commenters on his blog disregard everything he said because he named the wrong transport. Found a nit to pick your argument is invalid.

Exalted. Just because Goatboy may not have an in-depth understanding of the Eldar codex doesn't make his article any less valid. It captures the spirit of the moment: many players are angry that the Eldar have been buffed to ridiculous levels.

 Sarigar wrote:
Goatboy also wrote how bad it would be for Wraithguard to come out of Falcons killing with impunity. Unless he knows something we don't (doubtful), Wraithguard are Bulky and you can't even put them in a Falcon. He's not an Eldar player and really posted a 'sky is falling' which has been no different from what is being posted all over the place right now.

This is what is troubling honestly, the uproar is getting to be so that everything in the book is overpowered. Goatboy is clearly frustrated enough that he is just searching for the worst case scenario, even if its not legal. I know you have not seen Falcons in a long time, but come on man, they can't take a squad of WG. Some people are claiming aspect warriors are apparently cheese now? Yes they got buffed, but no one was taking them except 5 man DA in wave serpents and maybe warp spiders or swooping hawks. It seems like the entire codex, and not just the bikes or the wraithknight, is getting a reputation and its not even out yet.

Tournaments will have some very tough decisions to make, and I understand where he is coming from. No one wants to see slight variations on the same Eldar list on the top tables. Even I don't want to play them and I love Eldar. You all do realize we have to occasionally play against them too, right?

My very optimistic prediction; the backlash for this codex will be ugly at first, just like with Imperial Knights. TFGs will jump on the bike/wraithknight lists and do really well. But, much like all power lists, people will figure out how to beat them. And then Tau and Space Marines will come out, and I am really hoping they get buffed and get the same reception as Eldar

(Honestly, I'd love for Dark Angels to get the Eldar treatment, they are long long overdue).

The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.

A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.

I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.

The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.

 Sarigar wrote:
The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.

A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.

I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.

The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.

When members of my group complain about Eldar, I will point them to your post and tell them to grow a pair

 Sarigar wrote:
The comment is there b/c it demonstrates a lack of knowledge and knee jerk reaction that folks are having, which COMPLETELY makes it less valid. He has no real basis to decry a book is broken when he doesn't even understand the basics of the army. If he claims folks appear unhappy with the codex based on observations on the internet, then sure, that would be a more fair and level headed statement. Having an opinion is fine- assuming your opinion is correct is an entirely different matter.

A buddy of mine played his UM/GK vs Eldar (Jetbike Warhost + 4 Wraithknights) and crushed the Eldar army. This was him running his ATC armylist to get further practice games in. Rather than decry the sky is falling, others figuring out how the army, you know, actually plays.

I've stated it previously, if folks want to adjust rules for their games, have at it. Anything that makes the game more enjoyable for both players is great. However, I think the approach is way off base. Folks are automatically trying to create feel bad scenarios based on knee jerk reactions and then degrade folks who have no problems playing against any list.

The title: The NEw Eldar Codex: An Eldar Player's Guide to Fair Play insults players. It creates an assumption that somehow Eldar players do not play fair somehow. For someone who has literally played Eldar since the Rogue Trader era and through every edition, threads like this do not foster a better gaming community, rather, it divides and creates further hostility for something that folks should be doing to have fun. So enjoy finding ways to tell folks how they should be having fun as they apparently don't know how to do it on their own accord.

You know, I never actually realised quite how offensive the title to this thread actually is.

With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.

However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.

By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.

I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.

If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.