Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Scatbikes aren't that scary. Warwalkers can take a better loadout for fewer points, and both can be tar-pitted in close combat.
We haven't seen this codex in action, by any means. People are afraid, mostly due to hype and because of how Decurion effected the metagame. The sky is not falling.
Have we seen point costs on any of the changed units yet? I haven't seen screen caps on any rumor threads.

What unit catches the bikes in CC to tarpit them?? O.o
I love close combat, how have I not heard about a unit that can catch bikes that can zip 48" away in a turn?

Battle Focus does not allow jetbikes to turbo-boost after shooting. Since they are either getting within 12" to shoot, or turbo-boosting away you can bog them down in CC or force them to turbo-boost (limiting their ability to shoot)

EDIT: forgot that Scatter Lasers have a longer range, my point still stands.

Eldar bikes get to move 2d6" in the assault phase if they do not charge. Combined with the long range of the laser, you're not going to Catch them easily.

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

Pretty clear the wraithknight will be over powered just like the Knight titan. The Knight Titan can stomp too with is craziness


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamerely wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

Thank you. Nothing kills my enthusiasm to play or even freaking talk about the game than complaining nonstop. Same thing happened with the Necron book.

Except it wasn't even close to this


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.

When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.

Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.

Refusing to play for any reason besides you don't want to is stupid. There are times you can play and know your list is outmatched due to balance issues and it's fine. Waste your worst roles on those games and play well anyway and you'll be surprised how well it goes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamerely wrote:
I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.

The way you have to take a Riptide it's about 240 pts compared to the far superior wraithknight.... which is only getting better. Your point is not valid. It was already better at shooting, fighting and just about everything

Edited the OP to include the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

The idea: Let's make a flyer that's a psycher and flies around messing with the enemy's morale!

The execution: Let's give it Strength D weapons!

So... WraithKnight vs. Imperial Knight in CC?

You better hope the WK destroys the IK before IK swings. (almost seems 50-50 with rudimentry mathhammer).

If the IK swings back, he has D weapon too that can whittle HP down...

Another option is to play like minded people. Against some folks, I will tone down nothing. With others, I will adjust accordingly.

There are so many tourneys these days, I will continue to attend the ones I like how they will run the event. I will not attend the ones where I like how it will be run.

At the end of the day it will be business as usual except I will be painting more to add to my 20,000 point Eldar collection.

As per the latest round of rumors at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page93

I'm actually okay with the changes to Exarchs and the associated unit buffs. All of them appear to be on a limited, tactical level of viability, which fits the tone and theme of Aspect Warriors. I just hope that Exarchs are costed appropriately, considering that they are now much more than a generic character upgrade.

Good that Illic doesn't have a D weapon for his rifle. I'm not looking forward to adding more units to the list of ones we can't use.

Holo-Fields are now streamlined with DE and Harlequins. 4+ jink or 5++ invuln. Helps skimmers a surprising amount, without going over-the-top. Costed exactly the same as before.

Our psychic powers are as good as ever, without going overboard.

The Phoenix Lords received needed buffs, while remaining appropriately expensive.

As per the OP, if we ignore and change the offending units, Eldar go from "Codex: Scatbikers and D weapons" to "Codex: Aspect Warriors", which IMO is needed to convince people to move away from the cheese units.

A pity that this codex could have been so much greater with some rather obvious changes...

I wanna see more about the Dark Reapers...

I think that's one aspect unit that's going to get some serious love.

I got into Eldar when I saw the new wraithguard in a White Dwarf preview of the last codex. I loved the look and I have been hooked on them ever since.

It has taken me almost 2 years to get my Eldar wraith army up to my standards. Aside from the WK, (and I only took 1), they have never been considered cheese. Most players love playing against them because they are unique in my area.

All of the outrage over my awesome Wraith units really makes me sad. I refuse to be TFG. At the end of the day, I would rather my opponent have a good time. This community is too small to afford losing players over something like this.

I'm going to give my old list a run with the new codex first before I make any big changes. If it is indeed crazy, I'll adjust the list, either by giving the WK the sword/shield, or dropping him altogether.

It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.

Balance, what's that?

Even with a -1 to the destroyer table with the templates a roll of 3-6 still does d3 wounds/HP. So even though it's "only" S4 for insta death it will still most likely kill what ever it hits. No cover ,no armor and no fnp. Unless they have an invul and lots of luck making all thir save, they are vapor.

I'm re-reading the rumors and it looks like the wraith detachment gives "battle trance"? Is that the same as battle focus?

For free?! That was a WC2 power from the supplement last time. D-Scythes can move+run+shoot?

Ugh...

Vashones wrote:
I'm re-reading the rumors and it looks like the wraith detachment gives "battle trance"? Is that the same as battle focus?

For free?! That was a WC2 power from the supplement last time. D-Scythes can move+run+shoot?

Ugh...

Not quite. It gives re-rolls to hit if the unit is within 18 inches of a Spiritseer. So now you can get off the D-Strength shots even more reliably!

How would that interact with the DScythes? Would they get to reroll the d3 wounds from the destroyer table? Cause hory shet if so

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Vashones wrote:
I'm re-reading the rumors and it looks like the wraith detachment gives "battle trance"? Is that the same as battle focus?

For free?! That was a WC2 power from the supplement last time. D-Scythes can move+run+shoot?

Ugh...

Not quite. It gives re-rolls to hit if the unit is within 18 inches of a Spiritseer. So now you can get off the D-Strength shots even more reliably!

Check out this post (#2008) from from Iuchiban: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page101

Damn. It's even worse than we thought. Link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page101

As far as the battle report goes, we know we have a problem when Decurion Necrons can't even put up a decent fight against us. As predicted, Wraithguard with D-Scythes are so OP it's almost funny. The Wraithknight is unstoppable even against gauss. All the more reason to avoid taking either of them.

Farseers are even better. The new runes that let us re-roll a test once per game are a big boost.

With any luck, not taking the overpowered/undercosted units will put us on the same level as...Decurion Necrons!

Cue even more complaining.

The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

 koooaei wrote:
The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.

The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.

I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.

As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.

 Red Corsair wrote:

i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW

I for one intend to exploit the hell out of these new rules and enjoy my period at the top of the heap. The bitter tears of my opponents and their cries of, "OP!" shall provide much sustenance to my shriveled, desiccated soul. My only regret is that I don't have the money to buy a bunch of new models, so I am stuck with what I have. ... which, sadly, does not include Wraithguard nor more than one Wraithknight.

Talked with some of the guys at my FLGS. All agreed that ranged Strength D, Scatriders, and Wraith units were overpowered and undercosted, to a point that was crossing a line.

However, they were all still willing to play against Eldar, as long as these units were not used.

Some even suggested that their armies' cheese/OP lists could beat Scatriders/Wraiths. I suppose we'll only know about that when the codex is out and people start playing against it.

Still, the new Eldar codex is not being well received by anyone I know.

One great way to adapt is to start playing Infinity until Gee-Dubs stops releasing untested codices full-meth-speed-ahead.

But seriously - I'll be very surprised if this codex is allowed at tournaments in its current incarnation. Since it's clear that there's no way to adapt other races to fit the new Eldar, the game plan will likely be to adapt this new codex to fit the game that we all wish we could play.

Exactly. Tournament organizers have shown that they are more than willing to make changes to the core rules to balance out the game at a highly competitive level, e.g. changing 2++ re-rollable and invisibility. I see no reason why TO's would not either ban ranged D weapons or simply force the 6th edition Distortion rules.

Scatbikers and the Dire Avenger Shrine are very nasty, but there are ways at a very high level to deal with them (in certain armies). No one can ever build their list to counter ranged D.

Honestly, Eldar players need to handicap themselves. If the players themselves won't do it, I'm willing to bet certain circumstances will force them to tone down the unadulterated BS that is certain parts of 7th edition Codex Eldar.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.

Balance, what's that?

Eldar players were doing this for years with cheaper Fire Dragons (in 5th, I'd pay 80 points for a basic 5 man squad, however, paying for 8 men was a sure Land Raider killer). What's the point other than identifying a more expensive way to do the same thing? And the new Fire Dragons appear to be able to do this even better (+1 on the damage chart and they are already AP1 = +3 to the damage chart). Land Raiders have been a 'meh' choice for several years now and still are. I'm sorry, but your statement stems from 'the sky is falling' syndrome with really no objectivity.

To be fair, not all play groups or players are at the same skill level. If folks need to tone things down for certain players/groups, by all means as it is up to you all to have an enjoyable experience. However, decrying the book is broken and unenjoyable is simply an opinion. This was the same cries we were hearing when the 6th edition Eldar Codex dropped. Some folks learned to play with/against Eldar, others did not. This is no different.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.

The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.

I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.

As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.

Hmm. What about trying a house rule where you can take the warhost formations, and you get those abilities, but you use unit data sheets from the 6e book?

Except for scorpions, banshees, and hawks. Those guys are all now pretty sweet and flavorful.

I'm curious as an ork player how I'm supposed to adapt to the new eldar if these rumors are true.

There comes a point that a codex is so out classed by another , it not a matter of playing better or adapting. Except for getting a new army.

Just use the old dex?

It was already highly competitive and didn't need an update.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.

The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.

I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.

As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.

Hmm. What about trying a house rule where you can take the warhost formations, and you get those abilities, but you use unit data sheets from the 6e book?

Except for scorpions, banshees, and hawks. Those guys are all now pretty sweet and flavorful.

The problem with using unit data from the 6th ed. codex is that some units have arguably changed for the better. Wave Serpents, Phoenix Lords, Exarchs, the list will probably go on.

I actually like that Warlocks are an upgrade to the Windrider squad, as opposed to being part of a unit that gets split up before deployment. I also agree that Scorpions, Hawks, and especially Banshees are much improved in the new codex.

Ultimately, I think that it's going to end up being a combination of rules from the new codex (Wave Serpents) and from the old (Distortion weapons).

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:I'm curious as an ork player how I'm supposed to adapt to the new eldar if these rumors are true.

There comes a point that a codex is so out classed by another , it not a matter of playing better or adapting. Except for getting a new army.

You and other Ork players, as well as any other player, shouldn't have to do anything. This thread is about what Eldar players can do to modify their lists to bring them down to the power level of everyone else.

 Sarigar wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.

Balance, what's that?

Eldar players were doing this for years with cheaper Fire Dragons (in 5th, I'd pay 80 points for a basic 5 man squad, however, paying for 8 men was a sure Land Raider killer). What's the point other than identifying a more expensive way to do the same thing? And the new Fire Dragons appear to be able to do this even better (+1 on the damage chart and they are already AP1 = +3 to the damage chart). Land Raiders have been a 'meh' choice for several years now and still are. I'm sorry, but your statement stems from 'the sky is falling' syndrome with really no objectivity.

To be fair, not all play groups or players are at the same skill level. If folks need to tone things down for certain players/groups, by all means as it is up to you all to have an enjoyable experience. However, decrying the book is broken and unenjoyable is simply an opinion. This was the same cries we were hearing when the 6th edition Eldar Codex dropped. Some folks learned to play with/against Eldar, others did not. This is no different.

Very well said sir

The current wraith guard with there Str 10 guns could delete a LR pretty easy but a squad in a Serpent cost a ton, seems like a fair trade, good unit / lots of points.

I mostly dont field Wraith guard or even Knights much any more because of the points concentration, even the scat riders are more than a few points, I have lost count of my riders fleeing the table after losing a couple of riders, every potential heavy bolter round is a dead 27point? model dead.

I stopped playing more than one knight a while back, sometimes they were an easy win button, against a good opponent they could be just point sinks.

I've been using an allied Eldar detachment to my DE army since several months. At 1850, my primary list is 69% DE. So there's that.

Jetseer? Not much has changed apart from the apparent ability to re-roll a single psychic test per turn. Considering I've got a grand total of 3+D6 dice per Psychic Phase I think it's "just" good.

Windriders? Two teams of 3 Scatriders... But that's only six dudes total. They can be PITA if I keep them away from the enemy, but with a healthy amount of terrain at the table and proper positioning on the enemy's part they aren't going to be able to fire and run away all the time. Then there's drop pods, artillery, autocannons, etc. to reach them.

Wraithknight? One SH/GC per army and ranged Strength D is forbidden. Thus, I equip my WK with Glaive + Shield and go hunt those Imperial Knights, Centurion Stars, Wolfstars, undying Necrons, Screamerstars and the like that plague the local tournaments where I play. Yeah, I'm not going to feel guilty about fielding one WK in such an environment.

I was fine with the Eldar allies as they were but I suppose that with all those buffs, adhering to the official restrictions is all I need to do to run them and feel good about my army.

Jeeez. Whinge whinge whinge, cry cry cry. It's getting boring now. I am trawling this forum to find positive threads about the eldar. Having been an eldar player and a fan for as long as I can remember, I'm certainly not going to handicap myself, just to make my army poor enough that people are happy they can win. Those type of players, the ones that say 'what? You've got the new eldar book? I'm not playing you!' are the type that I have absolutely no interest in playing against anyway. It's pathetic. Why should I play 6th ed rules when GW have brought out a lovely new 7th ed book for me. And on that note, people need to make a choice. You either want us to play 6th rules, or 7th rules. You certainly can not mix and match. Otherwise every army in the 40k universe can mix and match any units they want from any of their preceeding books.

I have for a very long time ran a wraith only Iyanden list. My local group loved it. Nothing but wraiths and a spiritseer. I never spammed serpents. As I thought that was boring. And people with that mentality won't spam D weapons or scatterbikes this time round. I understand the issue with ranged D. But I think that people are going to have to accept the fact that D weapons are in 40K now, and here to stay. I personally have purchased some new bikes so I take less wraiths now. But with the wraith host formation (the only way I can field a spiritseer or wraithlord in the eldar specific detachment) I HAVE to take 3 units.

For God's sake, the books not even out yet. And I will guarantee that once it's here, and been played a few times, the community will dry it's tear filled eyes and realise it's not all that bad. It's the same damn thing every time a new top tier book is released. I haven't cried once at the new necrons book. I've played it. I don't ban their formation. Or cry about their wraiths. I just play them. And I have beaten them. And I've been beaten by them more often than I've won. And I love and live for the challenge.

Grow a pair.

Or, if you don't like what people have to say, you can go somewhere else. Crying because you don't like the posts on a forum no one is forcing you to go on is pretty silly.