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Note: Edited title for clarity.

If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.

Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.

But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!

With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.

Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition

There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:

Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.

If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.

I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.

Missed the Hemlock on the first pass. Fixing that.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: A smaller. psychic version of the Vampire Hunter. Like the Vampire Hunter, use only in Apocalypse games against people you hate.

Links:
Thread Title and Disclaimer: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/645031.page#7768700
Goatboy article: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/goatboy-hello-metagame-shift-eldar-edition.html
NOVA Open update: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2015/04/dealing-with-el-d-ar-pre-codex-thoughts.html

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If you haven't seen the new Eldar codex, go check the rumors thread. I can wait.

Now that your eyes have returned to their sockets and your jaw is off the floor, I can concretely state that the new Eldar codex will break 7th edition 40k. Ranged D, Scatbikes, the list goes on.
However, this is actually bad news for us Eldar players. Anyone seen in possession of this book will instantly be referred to as TFG without so much as setting a model on the tabletop. Our opponents will carefully scrutinize our army lists to find an excuse to refuse to play us. In short, this book has ruined whatever little reputation the Eldar had left.

But all is not lost! We will simply have to take the path of 5th edition Grey Knights: intentionally handicap and gimp our lists so that people will actually want to play against us. Note that this is only in the context of casual/friendly games. If you're planning on winning tournaments, cheese your way to victory! Yours is the easiest path of them all!

With that in mind, we should first look at the various general playstyles and how they will be affected.

Saim-Hann: Scatriders are now one of the most unbalanced units in all of 40k. Shuriken are even worse if taken in the Warhost. Only model one cannon per three jetbikes if you intend to get games.
Iyanden: Even more screwed. Even if the ITC doesn't rule it out, expect plenty of "No ranged D" house rules. If you can, play using the 6th edition Distort rules. Your opponent will thank you.
Biel-Tan: Actually in a good position. The Aspect Host is quite reasonable and flexible, depending on what units you like to use.
Ulthwe: Also not too bad. Guardians aren't a tax, and the Seer council is excellent. Dominate the psychic phase like you're playing Daemons.
Serpent Spam: Now no longer viable due to Serpent shield nerf. Not like you didn't deserve it for 6th edition

There are definitely some units and formations we should avoid:

Wraithknights: Unbelievably undercosted. If you insist, only take as a Lord of War in a CAD.
Jetbikes: Whole threads are dedicated to their ridiculousness. Like I said, only take one cannon for every three bikes if you want to run them.
Wraithguard: More ranged D madness. Fortunately, Fire Dragons fulfill much the same role, but with melta.
D-Cannons: Ranged D in artillery form. Opt for Shadow Weaver/Vibro Cannon instead.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Assault 3 Bladestorm at BS5 and BS2 overwatch is too much. The Aspect Host is much more reasonable.

If you close your eyes and pretend the unbalanced units simply aren't options, we have a variety of tools to compete with in a more sportsmanlike fashion. I personally view this as a challenge to prove that a good player can win without using ludicrously written rules.

I welcome any feedback from both Eldar veterans and non-Eldar players as to how to play Eldar with the new codex in a balanced, reasonable way.

i think your approach is quite reasonable, but honestly, nobody should support this book. If you must have it in hand I'd suggest pooling funds and purchasing one for the club/store. Crap like this needs to be refused by responsible consumers or it won't stop. Even with a FAQ/Errata there is no way I am buying it, redo your work GW

I was tempted by this idea, but I'm not a very good painter and I figured a guide could help me out. That, and I love the Eldar lore. I also wanted to get the new psychic power cards before they ran out.

I hate this new codex so much, I pre-ordered the limited edition!

 Frozocrone wrote:
The ranged D is rumoured to have a -1 modifier and counts as S4 for ID purposes so it's not as bad as one might think. Heck, theres a 33% chance of it not doing anything.

Bikes look to be strong, if squishy.
Wraithknight makes me sad, but I will adapt. As DE, all my AT goes in another direction now.

That only applies to the flamers. Everything else has full-power D.

Bikes are squishy, sure, but full units of Scatbikers will shoot down your DE transports without needing to jink. The Wraithknight is a lot faster that anyone realizes.

Tsilber wrote:
Well another book, another "sky is falling" pre-book, and how GW is terrible, or hates or whatever...

Play the book as it sits, units look good. Combos are no better than whats obtainable in other books.

Big Str 6 guns on the bikes is fine, whats the ap? do they ignore cover....

The nerf to serpents is nice, but decent tourney players dealt with them before.

Honestly, just like the Tau, Daemon, Space marine, bugs, necrons threads. Wait for the book to be in hand before the "OP" or "Broken" conversations...

The problem is that we already have the biggest issues spoilered to us via confirmed, reliable sources.

It's not the AP on the Scatbikers, it's volume of fire. And yes, Eldar can ignore cover via Divination.

If you don't see a problem with massively undercosted ranged D, I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason Scatbikers and ranged D are on my avoid list in the OP.

This isn't a "the sky is falling OMGWTFLOLGWsux" thread. The sky has fallen for Eldar players, and I'm trying to find a way to pick up the pieces.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Refusing to play against xyz list is not a option if your a tournament player.

When a person willing to travel far to a tourney, pay the often high entry fee and plus possible hotel stays and etc they definitely will bring the most cutthroat Waac list they could think of.

Not staying jet bike spam armies will win tourneys for sure since it's not a full Tac list. Considering wk is LoW and also a lot tourneys banned range D, eldar still needs to bring other options against av12+ and flyers. In the end I think it's who goes first will determine who wins against eldar bike spam.

Right, and that applies to the competitive tournament scene. I really do feel for the very competitive players out there; I hope you have accepted your new pointy-eared overlords.

My comments in the OP are aimed at the casual/FLGS/whatever scene, where people can turn down opponents. I'm trying to create ways for Eldar players in these scenes to get games and avoid being stigmatized simply because of how ludicrously overpowered our upcoming codex is.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah but you specifically have to play the army with a handicap. As it is you got a possible Aspect Warrior host which can apparently get BS 5 Dark Reapers possibly or at least BS5 Fire Dragons.

You specifically have to handicap yourself if the rumours are true.

This thread is about the sort of handicaps Eldar players will have to use in order to get people to avoid playing them.

Personally, I don't think BS5 Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons are OP, as in order to get them the Eldar player must use a very restrictive formation setup with a decently expensive core. Fire Dragons lack mobility unless given a thankfully toned-down Wave Serpent, and Dark Reapers are lacking in survivability.

It also fits with the fluff; if you personally spent hundreds of years perfecting the use of a single weapon, I would imagine BS5 would be the end result.

 Gamerely wrote:
I think all armies have a built in handicap. Because each codex has one supremely strong unit. Riptide, Centurion, T-wolves, etc. The balance is not overloading on that unit so that the game is fun for both sides.

I agree, but with the new Eldar codex it's a case of the supremely strong units being flat-out better that other armies' supreme units. Scatbikers are the best 27 point infantry in the game. Wraithknights are an enormous anti-deathstar unit that is utter death both at range and up close.

Edited the OP to include the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

The idea: Let's make a flyer that's a psycher and flies around messing with the enemy's morale!

The execution: Let's give it Strength D weapons!

As per the latest round of rumors at Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page93

I'm actually okay with the changes to Exarchs and the associated unit buffs. All of them appear to be on a limited, tactical level of viability, which fits the tone and theme of Aspect Warriors. I just hope that Exarchs are costed appropriately, considering that they are now much more than a generic character upgrade.

Good that Illic doesn't have a D weapon for his rifle. I'm not looking forward to adding more units to the list of ones we can't use.

Holo-Fields are now streamlined with DE and Harlequins. 4+ jink or 5++ invuln. Helps skimmers a surprising amount, without going over-the-top. Costed exactly the same as before.

Our psychic powers are as good as ever, without going overboard.

The Phoenix Lords received needed buffs, while remaining appropriately expensive.

As per the OP, if we ignore and change the offending units, Eldar go from "Codex: Scatbikers and D weapons" to "Codex: Aspect Warriors", which IMO is needed to convince people to move away from the cheese units.

A pity that this codex could have been so much greater with some rather obvious changes...

It is crazy. Wraithguard put out 5 D-templates for 210 points. Templates that can kill a Land Raider in one hit if they roll poorly, or an Imperial Knight if they roll well.

Balance, what's that?

Vashones wrote:
I'm re-reading the rumors and it looks like the wraith detachment gives "battle trance"? Is that the same as battle focus?

For free?! That was a WC2 power from the supplement last time. D-Scythes can move+run+shoot?

Ugh...

Not quite. It gives re-rolls to hit if the unit is within 18 inches of a Spiritseer. So now you can get off the D-Strength shots even more reliably!

Damn. It's even worse than we thought. Link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page101

As far as the battle report goes, we know we have a problem when Decurion Necrons can't even put up a decent fight against us. As predicted, Wraithguard with D-Scythes are so OP it's almost funny. The Wraithknight is unstoppable even against gauss. All the more reason to avoid taking either of them.

Farseers are even better. The new runes that let us re-roll a test once per game are a big boost.

With any luck, not taking the overpowered/undercosted units will put us on the same level as...Decurion Necrons!

Cue even more complaining.

 koooaei wrote:
The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.

The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.

I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.

As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.

Talked with some of the guys at my FLGS. All agreed that ranged Strength D, Scatriders, and Wraith units were overpowered and undercosted, to a point that was crossing a line.

However, they were all still willing to play against Eldar, as long as these units were not used.

Some even suggested that their armies' cheese/OP lists could beat Scatriders/Wraiths. I suppose we'll only know about that when the codex is out and people start playing against it.

Still, the new Eldar codex is not being well received by anyone I know.

Exactly. Tournament organizers have shown that they are more than willing to make changes to the core rules to balance out the game at a highly competitive level, e.g. changing 2++ re-rollable and invisibility. I see no reason why TO's would not either ban ranged D weapons or simply force the 6th edition Distortion rules.

Scatbikers and the Dire Avenger Shrine are very nasty, but there are ways at a very high level to deal with them (in certain armies). No one can ever build their list to counter ranged D.

Honestly, Eldar players need to handicap themselves. If the players themselves won't do it, I'm willing to bet certain circumstances will force them to tone down the unadulterated BS that is certain parts of 7th edition Codex Eldar.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The New Eldar Codex: A Player's Guide to Adapting:
Play with a 6-th dex.

That is an option, and one that I considered. The problem is that 7th edition has changed the game considerably since the Eldar codex came out.

The biggest change is the introduction of formations and the various bonuses they provide. I feel that, with the exception of the Dire Avenger Shrine, the Warhost formation is quite balanced.

I also like the changes to Exarchs, buffs to the Phoenix Lords, the nerf to the Serpent Shield, and the change to Holo-Fields.

As per the OP, if Eldar players handicap themselves by avoiding taking ranged D, Scatbikers, and other units our codex is relatively competitive while remaining balanced and enjoyable to play against.

Hmm. What about trying a house rule where you can take the warhost formations, and you get those abilities, but you use unit data sheets from the 6e book?

Except for scorpions, banshees, and hawks. Those guys are all now pretty sweet and flavorful.

The problem with using unit data from the 6th ed. codex is that some units have arguably changed for the better. Wave Serpents, Phoenix Lords, Exarchs, the list will probably go on.

I actually like that Warlocks are an upgrade to the Windrider squad, as opposed to being part of a unit that gets split up before deployment. I also agree that Scorpions, Hawks, and especially Banshees are much improved in the new codex.

Ultimately, I think that it's going to end up being a combination of rules from the new codex (Wave Serpents) and from the old (Distortion weapons).

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:I'm curious as an ork player how I'm supposed to adapt to the new eldar if these rumors are true.

There comes a point that a codex is so out classed by another , it not a matter of playing better or adapting. Except for getting a new army.

You and other Ork players, as well as any other player, shouldn't have to do anything. This thread is about what Eldar players can do to modify their lists to bring them down to the power level of everyone else.

Note: The following comment does not apply to any of the units/formations listed in the OP.

With regards to people complaining about how "every unit got buffed", I have only this to say:

Why shouldn't every unit in the codex be effective on the tabletop? Seriously, you can't tell me that some of these units didn't need a power increase. Banshees are the first to come to mind, but Hawks and the Phoenix Lords were also widely ignored due to being sub-optimal choices.

Just because other codexes are lacking in internal balance doesn't mean that Eldar shouldn't have internal balance. It's much the same sort of complaint leveled at the new Necrons, where every unit is good, but some units are better than others in specific contexts.

Right, and that ties into the idea of handicapping oneself when building a list. It's all a matter of communicating with your prospective opponent about what kind of game they want to play.

The people who are spamming Wraith units and Scatriders aren't playing Eldar the way they were meant to be played. The Eldar are not the hammer of the Imperium; they're a collection of knives with each one suitable for a specific purpose.

Unless you're playing Codex: Scatriders and D-Weapons, in which case you just hammer away.

Talys, you're spot on. I'm just worried that Eldar are going to be even more stigmatized in the eyes of many players.

Fortunately, things can only get better. Ranged D and the Wraithknight are probably going to be banned from tournaments for being too overpowered. There's already a thread theorizing ways to counter jetbike spam at a competitive level.

Once the codex is released, there's probably going to need to be a multi-page thread about how other armies can counter Eldar.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think that's where I disagree with a lot of people. GW might not be competent enough to write a balanced game. I have no issue there. My issue is with the players.

There is so much wrong with this.

How is that wrong? Due to a combination of factors, Warhammer 40k has never been a balanced game. There has always been an element of negotiation involved between both players as to what game that want. Anyone who thinks that 40k was balanced "back in the day" is having a case of rose-colored nostalgia.

The problem with the new Eldar codex is that it upsets the balance in such a way that no other army can reasonably counter it.

Martel732 wrote:
Why should Eldar not bring 5 wave serpents? Because GW is lazy?

Because no one in a casual/friendly context will want to play you if you bring 5 Wave Serpents, or spam Wraith units/Scatriders.

Just because GW makes rules that are easily exploitable doesn't mean you should exploit them. And if I were constantly confronted with people bringing the cheesiest lists possible, I would find other, more friendly players.

Besides, didn't you hear? The Serpent Shield was finally nerfed!

rollawaythestone wrote:So a couple questions and thoughts:

The Seer council in general got a nerf, right? Farseers maintained their strength, and got some new goodies like manifest on 3+. However, the Warlock Council itself is a Brotherhood of Psykers ML2 now. That means they only generate 2 psychic dice. Pretty nice nerf. It also means that Warlocks won't have massive amounts of psychic power options. They get two spells and the primaris and thats it. Big deal? In order toget mass access to Warlock powers and Dice, Eldar will need to add them to squads as upgrades.

Has someone done the math on each of the Formations for the Warhost detatchment? It's 895+ points to include Wraith units in a Warhost, right?

If we're going by the points costs in the old codex, then at a minimum it would be 805, though over 1000 points would produce an optimal list. And in a Warhost, you have to take the Guardian core, which is around 950 points. However, we don't know if the points costs have changed for all the units in the book (Wraithguard are the same points: 160 for 5 D weapons ).

Pyeatt wrote:Technically fair play would to be using every cheese unit to its maximum efficiency while following all inherent rules. Just saying.

Sure it would be fair, but would it be fair to your opponent? Just asking.

Goatboy over at Bell of Lost Souls has a decent article about the new Eldar: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/goatboy-hello-metagame-shift-eldar-edition.html

I think that it sums up the feelings of non-Eldar players in the current situation quite well. The final tagline is quite telling:

"Maybe I should have just stuck with Magic".

Hopefully, myself and others can show that there are more ways to play Eldar than simply monobuild and spam the most OP units in the game.

Let's keep it civil in here, everybody. We're here to discuss how to bring Eldar down to something approaching a balanced power level with other armies, not condescend to each other.

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

Exalted. My thoughts exactly.

Then again, we don't have the codex fully revealed to us yet. I could have to add more to that dread list on the OP...

 Eldarain wrote:
I like how many commenters on his blog disregard everything he said because he named the wrong transport. Found a nit to pick your argument is invalid.

Exalted. Just because Goatboy may not have an in-depth understanding of the Eldar codex doesn't make his article any less valid. It captures the spirit of the moment: many players are angry that the Eldar have been buffed to ridiculous levels.

With regards to the title, I do not intend to cause any offense. I apologize if it offends people. I changed the title from "A Player's Guide to Adapting" because I felt it conveyed the wrong message. If need be, I will change it back.

However, my sentiment regarding the title remains the same. Eldar have a bad reputation in many circles. I have seen firsthand how many TFG play Eldar. The last tournament I attended was won by Tau/Eldar with Serpent spam and summoned Demonettes.

By no means am I saying that all Eldar players are like that. Several of the posters here are proof enough that most Eldar players are friendly and willing to tone down their lists if need be. But the article I linked to conveys the mindset of many non-Eldar players at the moment: that Eldar are the most broken and easiest to abuse army in the game. Their knee-jerk reaction is to be angry and dissapointed with the new codex, and frankly they have every right to be.

I am not trying to tell people how to run their army or be the final arbiter of what is fair or not. I am simply putting out suggestions as to what Eldar players can do to avoid the perception of being TFG.

Martel732 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

LD 8 is fine. Your opponent won't have much to fire back after a volley or two from the bikes. That's what people making your argument don't comprehend. Most Imperial heavy weapons have crap firepower anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.

I have so many problems with comments like these.

Why? As it stands, I would forfeit every game to this codex. There's no point in even bothering to try to beat it.

I can see wanting to auto-forfeit against Wraith or Scatbike spam, but against any Eldar? That's a tad unreasonable.

Yes, Eldar have great firepower. Yes, Eldar have excellent mobility. We are also almost universally T3, and while some units have a 2+ or 3+ save, most have a 4+ or worse. Our vehicles cap out at AV12/12/10.

Beating Eldar is a matter of board control and target prioritization, with a healthy dose of playing to the objective. Is it a hard matchup and a slog for some armies to beat? Yes. Are Eldar unbeatable? No.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.

Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.


I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.

I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.

Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of creative and fluffy ways to run the new Eldar if you simply avoid the overpowered/undercosted units. Anyone complaining about the buffs to Aspect Warriors doesn't know what they are talking about.

As for the TFG's, try calling them out. After all, they're simply jumping on the bandwagon to exploit the most broken rules in 7th edition.

Truth118 wrote:It seems the only way to play fair as Eldar will be to play against other Eldar. What fun is that?

I disagree. There are plenty of ways to play Eldar fairly against other armies. It's just a matter of bringing Eldar down to the level of other armies.

partninja wrote:If I have to limit my lists based on what my opponents don't like, I get to limit theirs....

Exactly. You wouldn't play a friendly game against Centstar or Pentatyrant lists. Why should Eldar be any different?