I was recently accused of wanting to play a broken Codex just because I was reading the rules in the books literally, rather than trying to speculate as to what GW meant instead of what they wrote. Presented as "A typical Eldar player, wanting to make their already OP broken codex even more powerful." Below is my response, and the reason why people should relax a little bit about the D-weapon scare.

As for "Eldar players" wanting to break their codex, I am more of a Dark Eldar player, actually. I started buying Eldar only after GW introduced the allies matrix and such. Either way, I would have been happy to keep my old Eldar codex, and I only own 1 wave serpent and no wraithknights. Without using serpent spam or Wraithknights, I've lost only 1 game with my Eldar. Ultimately, the new Eldar codex didn't really change a lot. Wave serpents got nerfed, wraighknights became gargantuan and LoW, windriders got more weapon options, they added a decurion style formation, warlocks can no longer be spread around to different units based on what powers they roll, and we lost the mantle of the laughing god artifact(That I theory-crafted, but never actually got around to using). The D-weapon change is a buff, no doubt, but I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

Many tournaments already limit LoWs and Gargantuan creatures, so for them, the wraithknight issue is no issue at all. For those that don't, It's clear that GW is pushing towards a more epic game style using these large models, and so I'm sure we'll be seeing several such models and changes for things like Imperial knights as well. As for the other D-weapons, wraithguard are expensive, slow, and not obsec. They're also not great in CC. So, for standard wraithguard, they can be tied up with any cheap multiple model unit in CC, then they can't use their 12" range D-weapons. Imperial guardsmen could tie up a squad of 5 wraithguards for most of the game. Now, D-scythe wraithguards are a slightly different story with their "wall of death" rule. It basically requires a second cheap squad to tie them up for the rest of the game, but you can still easily do it. The final unit that gets D-weapons, the D-cannon, has 24" range. Not great, but not terrible, either. If it moves, it can't fire it's weapon. You can possibly just avoid their threat zone and, like wraithguard, they're highly vulnerable to being tied up in CC. If you get in CC with them, they're just Guardians with 5+ armor, no CC ability, and no D-weapons.

EDIT TO ADD:

I think charlie from Elite 40k made a good comparison post regarding the D-weapon changes.

Charlie from Elite 40k wrote: Wraiths and D
Many tears have been cried over the change to Distort weapons, upgrading them to the 'dreaded D' that so many players still irrationally fear. But how much of a difference is there really between S10 and D?

Let's start with the much-maligned Wraithknight and its pair of Heavy Wraithcannon. These were S10 AP2 with Instant Death on a 6. In other words, they were already:

Wounding everything on 2+
Always one-shotting T5 and lower
One-shotting T6+ on a 6 (except Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking a HP automatically from AV10 and AV11
Taking a HP on a 2+ from the very common AV12
Taking a HP on a 3+ or 4+ against the rarer AV13 and AV14

With the change to D, the Heavy Wraithcannon is now:

Still wounding everything on a 2+
Still always one-shotting T5 and lower
Still one-shotting T6+ on a 6 (now including most Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking D3 HP on a 2+ regardless of AV
One-shotting vehicles on a 6 (except the most expensive Super Heavies)
Ignoring cover and invulnerable saves on a 6

Yes, things changed. But the sky is not falling. They were buffed in several ways, and nerfed in several others. Did they come out slightly stronger than before? I don't think so. I think, with the normal tournament rules regarding LoWs and Gargantuan creatures that have been in place since before their codex released, they are likely a weaker codex now with the loss of the spamable twin-linked wave serpents. That said, I still think they're a good, powerful codex, which is something I think should be able to be said for any codex that's released. All codices should have a "Wow" factor, where when you read it for the first time, at several points you should say to yourself, "Wow, that's awesome."

If whatever faction you play didn't give you that feeling, or you feel like you can't compete with other codices, that is GW's failing in writing your codex, not a failure of everyone else's. Like DE. They got proper F'ed in the A. Their codex is so mediocre at everything that it makes them a chore to use. All the interesting fluff and special characters that gave them flair in last edition whittled down to a cast of underperforming characters that are a shadow of their former selves, as if DE were overpowered and needed less options. They didn't. I feel like DE would have been better served by not getting an update at all. Their most recent codex release seemed like an underpowered rehash of their old codex, that served no purpose other than to suck the fun out of the faction and give them an excuse to release the covens supplement and related models. It was a cash grab that hurt the faction, and the game as a whole. Don't blame eldar players because GW makes choices like these, stranding their loyal fanbases with crappy codices for multiple years. Perhaps the latest codices of necrons and eldar are signs of the future direction of GW's creation philosophy for core factions, where every faction will be awesome. One may hope.

Did I just read a L2P message?

One of the problem with D-weapons is that they are good weapons against SH and GC, it makes regular Vehicles and MC practically wasted points. Particulary, one that ignores cover by being a Template.

Granted, some tournaments have banned Ranged D so this issue is mitigated somewhat, but it's still an unpleasant aspect to deal with in casual games (if they can be called that).

I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

 Iechine wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

Well put.

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Are titans allowed? Hahaha.
Maybe Tyranids with a Barbed Hierodule could do it. Idk man

IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The wraithguards D weapons are 12" range. The ranged D on the artillery guns are 24". On the wraithknight, they're 36", and those are the longest range in the codex.

I don't disagree, the wraithknights with 36" ranged D are very buff. But many tournaments will limit gargantuan creatures and/or LoWs. I'm not seperated from the masses insofar as recognizing the power level of other codices. I'm primarily a Dark Eldar player. If you know anything about the new DE codex, you'll understand that we basically got screwed as bad as any other codex in the new era of 7th Edition releases. I still contest that, short of taking that rediculous wraithknight list that I agree is OP, if someone built a list that focussed on D-weapons from wraithguard and Support weapons, I think I could easily neutralize them using only my standard MSU Dark Eldar army list. Even if they took a single wraithknight on top of the support weapons and wraithguard, I think I'd stand a pretty decent chance.

That's all I'm saying, is I don't think it's OP. Is it powerful? SURE! But that's how ALL the codices should be. We should read about an army's capabilities and be all like, "Ohh, that's awesome!" Every codex should have an "Ohh, that's awesome!" feeling to it. This one does, and admittedly may go overboard with the wraithknight. I personally feel that the biggest problem with the codex is that the wraithknight is severely undercosted for what he does now. If they made the wraithknight ~400-450 points and limited it to 1, I think the entire codex would be fine as is.

So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

295pts.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Play to the objectives. Even if you get really lucky with stomps and your Wraithknights can remove a squad a turn, if you're presented with more targets than you can physically remove you're left with nine models to actually grab objectives. Play this against any kind of summon-spam and you're not going to get much done (I'm a big proponent of Kasyr Lutien Typhons for helping summon-spam against Eldar normally since it removes jetbikes and makes summoning much better but probably not in this case, too many Wraithcannons)

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The 24" range is on the Artillery unit. The D that the Wraithknight packs is 36" and he is a Jump MC so 48" threat range. Also, Lootas blow against the Wraithknight; hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s, 3+ save, 5+ FNP. 2 squads of 10 averages 40 shots, 13 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, and then only goes through the FNP 2/3 of the time. Two squads would be lucky to kill one WK on average by the end of the game....and thats if all the lootas live for 5-7 turns.

 PipeAlley wrote:
So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

Not sure what the question is. A Wraithknight with D-cannons is taking two D-strength shots per turn, at 3+ to hit and 2+ to do scary stuff (6 to do really scary stuff) each individual attack is roughly d3 powerfist attacks against most non-vehicle targets, so if you're shooting at Orks (say) each Wraithcannon is worth less than a Terminator in melee. If you're shooting another Wraithknight it's worth closer to six powerfist attacks (three Terminators), if you're shooting a Land Raider it's worth around twelve (six Terminators).

So your 300pt Wraithknight has the offensive potential of 480pts of hilariously overpriced Space Marines.

It is much tougher, though, and much faster.

If you're asking how many powerfists it'd take to beat a wraithcannon Wraithknight in melee? If they're Hammernators it kills half of a Terminator at I5, then at I1 they take two and a half wounds off charging or one and a half not charging, then the Wraithknight removes about 0.7 Terminators with stomp attacks, and then they go back to it.

I'd call that 7-8 Hammernators to win a fight with a D-cannon Wraithknight.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
So how many powerfist-equivalent is a WraithKnight with ranged D weapons? 10? 10.5 powerfists?

Not sure what the question is. A Wraithknight with D-cannons is taking two D-strength shots per turn, at 3+ to hit and 2+ to do scary stuff (6 to do really scary stuff) each individual attack is roughly d3 powerfist attacks against most non-vehicle targets, so if you're shooting at Orks (say) each Wraithcannon is worth less than a Terminator in melee. If you're shooting another Wraithknight it's worth closer to six powerfist attacks (three Terminators), if you're shooting a Land Raider it's worth around twelve (six Terminators).

So your 300pt Wraithknight has the offensive potential of 480pts of hilariously overpriced Space Marines.

It is much tougher, though, and much faster.

If you're asking how many powerfists it'd take to beat a wraithcannon Wraithknight in melee? If they're Hammernators it kills half of a Terminator at I5, then at I1 they take two and a half wounds off charging or one and a half not charging, then the Wraithknight removes about 0.7 Terminators with stomp attacks, and then they go back to it.

I'd call that 7-8 Hammernators to win a fight with a D-cannon Wraithknight.

He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Now, D-scythe wraithguards are a slightly different story with their "wall of death" rule. It basically requires a second cheap squad to tie them up for the rest of the game, but you can still easily do it.

They make it completely untenable to play most ground vehicles or expensive squads, since a three hundred point unit (five D-scythe Wraithguard and a WWP Archon) will land next to the biggest threat in your army turn two and remove it from play if it isn't a superheavy with at least nine hull points.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)

The reason he was making the comparison is becasue you are not supposed to post specifc point values (or other rules) online. Something to do with GW wanting people to have to BUY the rules to play the game. So, you can get around that by saying something like, "A wraithknight costs just shy of 3 Thunderfire Cannons," because you are not actually listing the point values, even though everyone knows what you mean. Personally, I dont give a feth about all that.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
He was talking about point cost. Like the actual point cost of the powerfist.

Oh. It's a meaningless point of comparison because the 'price of a powerfist' doesn't actually matter to the situation; the actual price of a weapon has to take into account the model you're equipping with it (a 20pt Grey Knight is clearly not paying 15pts for a power weapon, for instance) and a powerfist on a Strength 10 Gargantuan Creature would be a meaningless upgrade since it'd do nothing other than give the model Unwieldy.

If you're asking how many powerfist-equipped MODELS you could buy for the price of a Wraithknight it's about 7-8, I think (so just enough to beat it in melee if they can get into melee without dying).

(Another fun fact: if you can get Terrify on a Wraithknight and Be'lakor is your Warlord it only takes two castings of Psychic Shriek to kill it, on average)

The reason he was making the comparison is becasue you are not supposed to post specifc point values (or other rules) online. Something to do with GW wanting people to have to BUY the rules to play the game. So, you can get around that by saying something like, "A wraithknight costs just shy of 3 Thunderfire Cannons," because you are not actually listing the point values, even though everyone knows what you mean. Personally, I dont give a feth about all that.

Yeh - it's in pretty much every eldar thread anyway.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

The 24" range is on the Artillery unit. The D that the Wraithknight packs is 36" and he is a Jump MC so 48" threat range. Also, Lootas blow against the Wraithknight; hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s, 3+ save, 5+ FNP. 2 squads of 10 averages 40 shots, 13 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, and then only goes through the FNP 2/3 of the time. Two squads would be lucky to kill one WK on average by the end of the game....and thats if all the lootas live for 5-7 turns.

Ah, so almost 10 DeffKoptas then. Hmmm, 10 single DeffKoptas, 10 Shots hit 5/9th, wound 1/2 (yikes!), save 1/3, FNP 1/3, so 1.2345679 wounds per turn against the WraithKnight. How many d shots a turn does it get? Deffkopta would Jink, assuming BS4 for the knight would means about 5/18 dead DeffKoptas per turn per shot.

the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

Well I feel like my Imperial knights just got nerfed hard by the eldar. Also craftworld eldar were never really that weak to begin with if you ask me. Hopefully they made shining spears better. I always kind of liked the look of the model.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

That's all I'm saying, is I don't think it's OP. Is it powerful? SURE! But that's how ALL the codices should be. We should read about an army's capabilities and be all like, "Ohh, that's awesome!" Every codex should have an "Ohh, that's awesome!" feeling to it. This one does, and admittedly may go overboard with the wraithknight. I personally feel that the biggest problem with the codex is that the wraithknight is severely undercosted for what he does now. If they made the wraithknight ~400-450 points and limited it to 1, I think the entire codex would be fine as is.

It's true. Every codex should have something that awesome. Every Space Marine should have S/T5. Every army should be well balanced towards each other and everyone in the world should be equal.
But none of those is the case. Currently, the Eldar have something that make people go crazy because when compared to the rest of the armies it is ridiculously powerful for the cheap cost in points.

The fact that other armies should have something as awesome doesn't justify any of this since the truth is that most armies don't.

I'm primarily a Dark Eldar player. If you know anything about the new DE codex, you'll understand that we basically got screwed as bad as any other codex in the new era of 7th Edition releases.

You don't have to be defensive about this. I don't think anyone of us has anything aginst you just because you play Eldar. It isn't a crime or anything. I have nothing against Eldar players, even the ones that abuse the new rules set.
The fault lies with the poor rules that we have, not in the players.

blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

almost every single model in the codex got a free buff (not even considering the formation buffs), so, yes the signing spear got better, they now get a 4+ cover save if they moved in the past movement phase.

I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

Love your first comment Pipeally

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

As i see it, if eldar win, its like, no biggy, you werent expecting to win, but if you DO win, then WOW!

I like that us ork players just wonna see stuff blow up. The bigger and scarier the enemy (like a wraithknight for example), the more glorious when they get STOMPED

As for the Eldar codex, I dont agree at all with ANY of the buffs, but agree with the serpent nerf. Eldar didnt need to be buffed AT ALL and some people are rightly annoyed. However, that doesn't mean your opponents aren't gonna squish you if they can.

The D weapons are stupid. End of. there was NO NEED at all and a range of 12" is not a justification because they can take a wave serpent, which means they move 6, disembark 6 and shoot 12. so they effectively shoot 24". The main reason i think it is plain dumb is because they can take out basically anything in the game now. Oh, you have a vehicle worth more than my entire squad and transport with 4 hull points...? OH, NO YOU DONT.

Rant over.

Da boyz will be pickin eldar from der teef anyway.
WAAAGH!

Chancetragedy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The wraithguards D weapons are 12" range. The ranged D on the artillery guns are 24". On the wraithknight, they're 36", and those are the longest range in the codex.

Hemlocks have two 18'' range small blast D weapons (at -1 on the D chart). On a flier platform, this means map-wide D threat range as early as T2.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

No, its there. Look at the Crimson Death formation page, not the Crimson Hunter unit page.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Well SD ignores FNP inherently while S10 doesn't, and the old 6 was ID which could be offset by invulnerable saves and EW, the new 6 is just that model goes away.

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Because it does d3 wounds per 'wound', and d3 hullpoints per hit. Now they 1 shot every model in the game - it doesn't matter the model. From landraider to grot. They all die the same.

They also got stomps, which people seem to be forgetting about. And immunity to poison, which is huge on a T8 creature.

StD ignores fnp and causes d3 wounds - it's not just vehicles that it's improved against from st10.

In fact, the 3 things that were reliable-ish against it before where tarpitting hordes if they got into combat with it, poison weapons and other MCs. Which have all been neutered against it by stomps, immunity to poison and stD weapons respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also can't be stomped anymore by GCs and SHs and thunderblitz isn't as effective against it now.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

This is an honest question and not sarcasm at all. Have you ever played against centstar? It can't be tied up, it ignores cover most of the time, can target 2 WK's a turn killing one outright, and usually can only be hit on 6's. If it gets caught for a round of combat yes the WK's would ravage it, but if the Knights spread out to cover the board for assault purposes they get picked off. Again I said "moderately" confident. But that's a bit hyperbolic to say no shot.

The issue with a centstar solution is superfast Jetbikes tying it up in CC until a WK can deal with it, I'd imagine. Granted, the proposed list isn't ideal (imo). Suffers for the same reason QuadTide lists did with newfound Tau. WKs are really good, but they don't answer everything as efficiently as other units. Swap a Knight for a trio of Nightspinners. Enjoy three Str10 AP 6 pseudo-rending barrage large blasts. Or give a bit more muscle to your bike numbers.

@obsidian I agree mostly, I'm just talking about something like the list he posted. "Worst case scenario" 5 WK's type situation. It's the start of unlocking how to beat Eldar. Figure out how to deal with the extremes then work your way to a more balanced area. Also the night spinners aren't touching any invis unit without a nerf to invis.

Its hard to take someone who argues that Eldar can still summon daemons in the new codex seriously LOL.

Funny..Eldar players are offended.

Sorry it's so tough on you.

There's NOTHING the new elder codex can't counter.

Hell you don't even need Flyers..Hawks take care of anything flying that bothers you.
Oh I just turbo boosted..no worries your Reapers reroll to hit and ignore jinks.
Banshee's screaming across the board..overwatch will slow them down..Nope not with a B-mask.

Can I stop now?

It will be interesting to see how the big tourney's counter the new Dex.

Nova will be a joy I'm sure..but it always is.

You have to out think the other guy and use your Jedi mind tricks to the full.

Denizen of the Dark City wrote:
Funny..Eldar players are offended.

Sorry it's so tough on you.

There's NOTHING the new elder codex can't counter.

Hell you don't even need Flyers..Hawks take care of anything flying that bothers you.
Oh I just turbo boosted..no worries your Reapers reroll to hit and ignore jinks.
Banshee's screaming across the board..overwatch will slow them down..Nope not with a B-mask.

Can I stop now?

It will be interesting to see how the big tourney's counter the new Dex.

Nova will be a joy I'm sure..but it always is.

You have to out think the other guy and use your Jedi mind tricks to the full.

To be fair, Banshees and Hawks are both still T3 4+ and die in droves to Lasguns and Bolters.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

It's not an exaggeration. It's on page 144, right beneath the rule giving them preferred enemy to flyers and FMC.

Honestly the D-weapons wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have the bikes and vice versa.

The D-weapons can be countered with large model counts.
The bikes can be countered with high AV.

Combine the two, and you're left with nothing to counter the eldar with.

So the 5 WK list is a lot less scary than a 2-3 WK + 30 bikes list because the 5 WK list just doesn't have that many shots. Can they even shoot one IG 50-man blob down over the course of the game? (The bikes easily can.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Against infantry and MC the d3 damage, the 6 result that disallows saves and murders things?

A WK can one-shot a full health IK from range if he gets a lucky roll. The IK has no similar ability against the WK, but the WK is cheaper...

D-weapons are hardly countered by large model counts when they're available in blast and template form.

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

Uh huh..toughness 3 is the least of your worries.

But hey it's all good..the Eldar codex will make a lot of players better or thin the herd.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

Yeah, it's just you. You only have to take ONE of the 3 guardian hosts for a Craftworld Warhost.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

One windrider host + 5 wraith constructs. Definately legal.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

Read my post. I didn't say they were bad, you need to run some melta however. Nearly all grav isn't all grav and your not taking that many biker units. They need to be 5 strong to be troops. Your greatly exaggerating the match up if you think that your "common" grav biker list will crap over the list hawaiinmatt posted.

I even showed you the numbers, a grav biker unit needs to be within suicide range and only does 4 wounds before toe in cover and Fnp. Good luck bub.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

Read my post. I didn't say they were bad, you need to run some melta however. Nearly all grav isn't all grav and your not taking that many biker units. They need to be 5 strong to be troops. Your greatly exaggerating the match up if you think that your "common" grav biker list will crap over the list hawaiinmatt posted.

I even showed you the numbers, a grav biker unit needs to be within suicide range and only does 4 wounds before toe in cover and Fnp. Good luck bub.

You dont need melta actually, 2 6s from a grav gun and most vehicles in the game are toast. The only thing that nights have to show for their 55 point increase vs grav is FNP and that only goes so far.

I think people forget how much more effective grav cannons + amps are than regular grav guns. (Or they imagine that every squad is just like the 4 gun grav command squad.)

Yah honestly it took me a while to really understand that fact. It wasn't until I started using a fully powered centstar you really notice the difference. Each bike squad against a WK is 6 shots 4 hit 3(rounded) wound - WK takes 1 wound after cover/FNP multiply that by 6 for msu squads.

Where as a 5 man centstar with prescience/perfect timing splitting off 1 centurion 20 shots 18 hit, 15 wound, WK takes 12 wounds after fnp(high likelihood no cover)

Then 5 shots 4hit/wound second WK takes 3 wounds from it. Do you see the difference?

Edit-a lot of my math is rounded before anyone gets on me for not specifically writing out the exact averages.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The issue with a centstar solution is superfast Jetbikes tying it up in CC until a WK can deal with it, I'd imagine. Granted, the proposed list isn't ideal (imo). Suffers for the same reason QuadTide lists did with newfound Tau. WKs are really good, but they don't answer everything as efficiently as other units. Swap a Knight for a trio of Nightspinners. Enjoy three Str10 AP 6 pseudo-rending barrage large blasts. Or give a bit more muscle to your bike numbers.

It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

The thing is, an eldar player might have enough warp charges to stop Cent. Star from teleporting, or to counter its invis and shoot it to pieces.

20 bikes would pile 80 * 2/3 * 2/3 = about 36 wounds on it. Even saving at 2+, that's 6 unsaved wounds meaning the guy who was taking + 1 cent gone. (or 3 cents gone since the bikes should be mobile enough to affect what the closest model is). At that point, it becomes a lot less effective and the D weapons probably finish it.

The list presented has one Farseer which cannot counter the warp pool gravstar can put on the table.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

You can only have 1 LoW per the basic detachments, so this list is invalid. Even so, if you are taking 5 LoW choices, your opponent can take 5 too. I mean I don't see people screaming about taking 5 Cobras in an Eldar list, and those occupy the same force org slot and have a larger blast template.

The omission of the Wraithguard and D cannon is telling. No one seems afraid of those, they are all afraid of legions of Wraithknights.
So yes, L2P. If you can't handle wraithguard with cannons how could you handle a Centstar?

This list utilized the Eldar Warhost detatchment, which is legal. If they take one Windrider Host (which is listed), they can take up to 12 Wraithknights.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

If the bikes are being shot by grav the WK is not - and so this is counted as a success, for it gets to close distance and charge. And if the CentStar is using dice for a gate, it's not using dice for Invisibility. Getting both powers off requires a hefty warp charge investment that is not assured. Now to even HAVE both Gate and Invisibility, guaranteed, we're talking Draigo + Cents + Tigurius (although a GK librarian has good odds as well). Of that collection of models, only Draigo truly threatens eldar bikes in CC (Dev Cents have no CC weapons to speak of). If the GK Libby is taken, generates invisibility, and has been upgraded with not-a-force-staff, then you've two threatening models. Yet even between them, I'd put them hard-pressed to wipe out 6-9 jetbikes (~160-240pt investment on the Eldar player's part, assuming ScatBikes). Not sufficiently to guarantee they flee, and if they wipe them during their turn the damage has been done.

But here's the kicker - the ~800pt star can be feasibly threatened by ~550pts (9 Scatbikes and a stock WK). All the bikes need to do is either eat fire for a turn, or not die for a turn. The burden of accomplishing something rests on the GK player - avoiding / killing the Scatbikes and avoiding / killing the WK, while eating 36'' Str6 fire (still puts a wound a turn through, even with invisibility up, assuming 9 Scatbikes). And if invisibility fails to go off even once, the whole thing falls apart. Eldar have the maneuverability to immediately punish.

Yah I'm only talking about the list that was presented. I would need to change the thought process if the list changes. My current tournament centstar puts out base 14 dice with 2 detachments, with 3 detachments I can boost that base 18 dice without losing anything as far as power for the centurions go and I gain coteaz so you won't be deep striking within 12" of the centurions. I doubt one farseer from that list is stopping anything.

Also @mavnas you've got your math wrong because my centstar is invisible.
20 bikes is 80 shots 16% to hit so 13 hits, 66% to wound so 8 wounds 84% to save so you MAYBE kill 1 centurion if design isn't buffering.
With ALL the bikes being prescienced(highly unlikely due to my dice pool) double that number.

and again this is all hypothetical because honestly we don't even know what Eldar are actually going to look like. It's most likely gonna be a much more balanced mix of STRD and jetbikes. Nothing of these extremes.

Edit:@obsidiankatana again I ask this question honestly and without sarcasm or bile in my words. Have you actually played against centstar? I've been playing this list for over a year in various iterations and hundreds of games. I can honestly count on one hand how many times I haven't gotten gate+prescience+invis+perfect timing in my list and honestly it's probably like 75% chance to get all the powers needed off in a single phase. And if I really need a specific power the chances are astronomically small I don't get it off.

ITT lots of people who don't know what proper grav star is.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

If the bikes are being shot by grav the WK is not - and so this is counted as a success, for it gets to close distance and charge. And if the CentStar is using dice for a gate, it's not using dice for Invisibility. Getting both powers off requires a hefty warp charge investment that is not assured. Now to even HAVE both Gate and Invisibility, guaranteed, we're talking Draigo + Cents + Tigurius (although a GK librarian has good odds as well). Of that collection of models, only Draigo truly threatens eldar bikes in CC (Dev Cents have no CC weapons to speak of). If the GK Libby is taken, generates invisibility, and has been upgraded with not-a-force-staff, then you've two threatening models. Yet even between them, I'd put them hard-pressed to wipe out 6-9 jetbikes (~160-240pt investment on the Eldar player's part, assuming ScatBikes). Not sufficiently to guarantee they flee, and if they wipe them during their turn the damage has been done.

But here's the kicker - the ~800pt star can be feasibly threatened by ~550pts (9 Scatbikes and a stock WK). All the bikes need to do is either eat fire for a turn, or not die for a turn. The burden of accomplishing something rests on the GK player - avoiding / killing the Scatbikes and avoiding / killing the WK, while eating 36'' Str6 fire (still puts a wound a turn through, even with invisibility up, assuming 9 Scatbikes). And if invisibility fails to go off even once, the whole thing falls apart. Eldar have the maneuverability to immediately punish.

Draigo, Loth and a GK Libby with a daemonhammer will punk out the bike squad ker splat... plus Loth can shriek them with their crappy Ld8 so they probably won't even have to shoot them... Seriously.

And it's not like grav star needs to gate every turn... Maybe only 1-2 times a game.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Ooh! Ooh! I have a list that can beat this, and it isn't even tailored! Basically, my TAC list can beat it! And I don't even need Invisibility!

My math assumed that the invis got denied, which is very likely given that eldar can easily get 10+ dice to do it. And they dont need to every turn, just the one turn where they cripple the star.

That's not the army that was presented.

fair enough. then what's the math minus 3 warp charges and 20-36 SL' shots because I will eliminate an entire squad + upto 4 bikes before you can shutdown my invis and shoot me. As I'll just hide the cents behind LoS initially.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the army that was presented.

The army presented is bad and probably not legal in tournaments. Arguing whether it can be beaten is pointless and irrelevant.

Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

No it can't. Don't forget, the Eldar player will be losing 1 WK a turn. Then when he moves the WK's towards the centstar, it can just Gate to the opposite flank away from most of the WK's and shoot down another WK. Rinse and repeat, til all WK's are gone.

WK's just fold like wet toilet paper to centurionstars.

Mavnas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the army that was presented.

The army presented is bad and probably not legal in tournaments. Arguing whether it can be beaten is pointless and irrelevant.

We're not arguing, we're having a conversation. So let's converse present a list and theory it through. Here's my 2 current centstars I run and would put them up against anything Eldar has to offer.

Tiggy
2xlvl 3 GK Libby's - halberds
2x5 scouts - land speeder storms
1x5 strike squad
2xdreadknight - teleporter, incin, psycannon, hammers
5 centurions - grav, omni
Draigo

And alternate depending on missions
Tiggy
Libby - lvl 2, bike, axe, melta bombs
3xscouts - in storms
Storm raven - locator beacon
5 centurions - grav, omni
2xGK Libby - lvl 3, hammers
1x5 strike squad - incin
Draigo

@obsidian the best chance centstar has is if the Eldar player is dumb enough to charge all 5 WK right at the centstar. I would LOVE that as I already presented the math for killing 3 WK's every 2 turns.

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

No it can't. Don't forget, the Eldar player will be losing 1 WK a turn. Then when he moves the WK's towards the centstar, it can just Gate to the opposite flank away from most of the WK's and shoot down another WK. Rinse and repeat, til all WK's are gone.

WK's just fold like wet toilet paper to centurionstars.

Have you forgotten the 24'' range of grav guns and the 12'' range of WKs? Assuming 5 WKs (laughable list, but hey, it was presented) they have more than enough board presence to corner and eradicate a CentStar. Even assuming Gate + Invis every turn, and no meaningful scatters on Gate.

24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

Honestly the match up is pretty good for top Centstar players... in the tournament scene wise

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will most likely have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

This is discussing a posted list within this thread including 5 WKs. As I've stated before - it's hardly ideal, and I'd advise against it.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

First turn 2 WK's 24" from centstar one dies. Then the remaining wraithknight with 3 wounds remaining charges into draigo at I5 with reroll str7-9 force. Dies before it swings. Then second set of WK's is the same ole song and dance.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

Probably less though. If the eldar guy buys enough warlocks, he's probably only getting one WK there.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.


BTW, in CC, you can potentially encounter, with Hammerhand, a S10 GK Librarian, a S9 Draigo and a S8 Tigurius, all with Force Weapons and potentially Invisibility. Ha! Good luck surviving that.

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.

Are you responding to my latest post or another one? Because my latest post had parked Wraithknights. In such a way as regardless of the position of the Centurions, at least one WK is in a position to move, shoot, and charge them. But you seem to be entirely missing the point of what I've been trying to say. I know CentStars kill WKs. I've admitted several times that taking them in such large numbers is a horrible idea. What I'm saying is, even the ideal counter, if caught in CC, can be very swiftly put down by the very unit it counters.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

First turn 2 WK's 24" from centstar one dies. Then the remaining wraithknight with 3 wounds remaining charges into draigo at I5 with reroll str7-9 force. Dies before it swings. Then second set of WK's is the same ole song and dance.

Wait how many swings at what str are we assuming from the Cent star?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With this list, the Eldar player's best bet might be to have all the WKs close enough that they can all charge in and all stomp. With enough stomps, you get a 6, and if the star used Gate, they're clumped up nicely.

Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Knights are I5 as well, but if you shot one with grav weapons then they are concussed and I1 so everyone gets to go before them.

Ahhhh good point khaine!

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.

Are you responding to my latest post or another one? Because my latest post had parked Wraithknights. In such a way as regardless of the position of the Centurions, at least one WK is in a position to move, shoot, and charge them. But you seem to be entirely missing the point of what I've been trying to say. I know CentStars kill WKs. I've admitted several times that taking them in such large numbers is a horrible idea. What I'm saying is, even the ideal counter, if caught in CC, can be very swiftly put down by the very unit it counters.

Why would you park your WK's? To get shot down by Centurions? Splitting the WK's is a horrible tactic against the centstar. 1 WK will die horribly to it, even in close combat. You need at least 2 or more WK's to kill them in combat and in order to do that, you need the WK's supporting each other.

In any case, WK-spam is a matchup that a centstar would love to go up against no matter what tactic the Eldar player employ. You're right about the spamming WK's being bad, however (at least against the centstar).

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
Love your first comment Pipeally

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

As i see it, if eldar win, its like, no biggy, you werent expecting to win, but if you DO win, then WOW!

I like that us ork players just wonna see stuff blow up. The bigger and scarier the enemy (like a wraithknight for example), the more glorious when they get STOMPED

As for the Eldar codex, I dont agree at all with ANY of the buffs, but agree with the serpent nerf. Eldar didnt need to be buffed AT ALL and some people are rightly annoyed. However, that doesn't mean your opponents aren't gonna squish you if they can.

The D weapons are stupid. End of. there was NO NEED at all and a range of 12" is not a justification because they can take a wave serpent, which means they move 6, disembark 6 and shoot 12. so they effectively shoot 24". The main reason i think it is plain dumb is because they can take out basically anything in the game now. Oh, you have a vehicle worth more than my entire squad and transport with 4 hull points...? OH, NO YOU DONT.

Rant over.

Da boyz will be pickin eldar from der teef anyway.
WAAAGH!

^^ This guy gets it ^^

You win when you get to play. The game is its own reward.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

If you don't want to discuss the merits of scatbikes tying up gravstar that's okay. Ld8 is not good versus Shriek... Average roll on 3d6 is around 10 so you're typically losing two or more bikes then have to take a break check. Loth can select Terrify which makes it even worse odds.

I doubt many people would play a game versus 5 WK to be honest so it's kind of a moot point tbh.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

Honestly the match up is pretty good for top Centstar players... in the tournament scene wise

And that's the whole point.
The current eldar book is broken to the point where the major tournaments have rules in place to prevent their use.
Interestingly, it's only invisibility that's giving the centstar a chance; if you're talking about tournaments, it's worth looking at how invisibility is getting tweeked as well. With the 1 D unit per army and invisibility limited to WS1 BS1 (instead of snap shots), the unit of scythes that arrive via webway portal wave serpent erases the centstar.

I'll be curious how those tournaments adjust to the new eldar book. Banning wraithguard, D cannons, Wraith Scythes, Heavy Wraith Cannons, Wraith Glaives and Wraith Fighters is an unprecedented amount of gimping.

And I did see 5 wraith knights go up against a cent-star. And it wasn't pretty. The star went invis, and ported in, killed a knight (barely, 5++ and FnP is rough), but scattered slightly too close. 3 Wraith Knights charged the star and stomped the piss out of it. Draigo needs 5+ to wound, which is ugly. After that, it was all about the knights.

Bike Grav game was very, very short. Bikes rolled in, unloaded and failed to down the knights. Knights charged in and cleaned house. The marine player blamed his dice, until he looked at the odds...
2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 pass invul (or cover) and 2/3 pass feel no pain. 6 wounds per knight. Takes more than 30 shots to kill 1, and he had 5.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

 Dozer Blades wrote:
[If you don't want to discuss the merits of scatbikes tying up gravstar that's okay. Ld8 is not good versus Shriek... Average roll on 3d6 is around 10 so you're typically losing two or more bikes then have to take a break check. Loth can select Terrify which makes it even worse odds.

Not once did I say I didn't want to discuss it. In fact, I did discuss it. In the very post you quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

Force activated on his sword. Instant death is D3 wounds per wound to GMCs

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

Force. ID does d3 Wounds to Gargantuan Creatures.

Okay thanks for the tip on force versus GMC.

Yah it's just about the only bonus weapons get against GMC except fleshbane. Also "removed from play" attacks do the same D3 wounds.

Shouldn't DE Ossefactors and Flesh Gauntlets hurt it pretty badly en masse?

I'm woefully under educated on D-Eldar specialty wargear like that atm. What does each do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Occifactor works ok because of fleshbane still wounding GMC on 2+ Not sure how the calcific wounds interact though(edit: just reread it they don't interact because it would be dead if removed from play ;p). The flesh gauntlet on 6's would do D3 wounds but only wounds the WK on a 6 so I guess it's a moot point. Edit2:also the flesh gauntlet is AP- so probably not great.

Alcibiades wrote:
Shouldn't DE Ossefactors and Flesh Gauntlets hurt it pretty badly en masse?

Ossefactors would be great, if it weren't for the unit packing them. It's 5 wracks per weapon, so 65 points per shot. Wounds on 2+, doesn't ignore cover, invul, or feel no pain.
Flesh Gauntlet needs a 6 to wound and you are up against the 3+ armor and FnP, making them pretty sub-par. Worst part is catching the wraith knight. If you're likely to take him out, you're unlikely to catch him with the infantry that packs them.

-Matt

 extremefreak17 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

Unless the suncannons got some upgrade that lets them pick out models, I would not be too worried about the nobs/bosses getting splatted from a str7 weapon that they can take FnP from and are inside a mob of 100+ Boys that are worth on avg 6 pts.

Well to kill a Wraithknight should take about 16 Ossefactor shots if my math is right. So that's 1040 points to kill a Wraithknight in one round of shootting, assuming no cover saves.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well to kill a Wraithknight should take about 16 Ossefactor shots if my math is right. So that's 1040 points to kill a Wraithknight in one round of shootting, assuming no cover saves.

And assuming he's not melee(he'd get the inv then)

blaktoof wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

Unless the suncannons got some upgrade that lets them pick out models, I would not be too worried about the nobs/bosses getting splatted from a str7 weapon that they can take FnP from and are inside a mob of 100+ Boys that are worth on avg 6 pts.

My bad, thought we were talking about a single squad of nobs.

Play what you want to play. Eldar, if they're broken w/e make the most broken thing ever and make the games silly.


GW has made them so OP that they're basically on par with the terribly un-competitive armies, and now you basically are forced to play for fun like the plebs.


Its so OP its gone back to house ruling for fun. GG. GW can't figure out how to nerf, so they break the mold on OPness and basically do the same thing anyway.

Effectively re-inforcing that the game's in the player's hands by doing all this rule jank stuff so you're playing a game having fun, and feeling comfortable adapting rules to support that.


#silverlining

Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

Alcibiades wrote:
Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

2/3rds hits, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail invul, 2/3 fail feel no pain. Every 4.05 shots is 1 wound. Has 6 wounds. Need 10 units of 10 wracks (1300 points) to have a shot at dropping 1.
At which point you lose to a single wave serpent, as you have nothing left to kill armor, after blowing 1300 points on wracks.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

2/3rds hits, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail invul, 2/3 fail feel no pain. Every 4.05 shots is 1 wound. Has 6 wounds. Need 10 units of 10 wracks (1300 points) to have a shot at dropping 1.
At which point you lose to a single wave serpent, as you have nothing left to kill armor, after blowing 1300 points on wracks.

-Matt

I specifically said "the Carnival of Pain." Which means what, 7 Taloi I think and a bunch of Raiders.

Anyway I am being somewhat facetious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and Grotesques. Hmmm, Grotesques.

Durandal wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

You can only have 1 LoW per the basic detachments, so this list is invalid. Even so, if you are taking 5 LoW choices, your opponent can take 5 too. I mean I don't see people screaming about taking 5 Cobras in an Eldar list, and those occupy the same force org slot and have a larger blast template.

The omission of the Wraithguard and D cannon is telling. No one seems afraid of those, they are all afraid of legions of Wraithknights.
So yes, L2P. If you can't handle wraithguard with cannons how could you handle a Centstar?

You should probably read the codex before making comments like that. You can theoretically take up to 12 Wraithknights in 1 detachment.

What I've established from the last page of discussion is that people are generally in agreement, but not fully, that a unit costing almost 1k, with the most optimal weaponary in the game against wraithknights (not including D), which is always successful on its powers and deepstrike rolls, playing on planet bowling ball and doesn't have a poor turns shooting all game, can kill ~ one and a half times its points cost in wraithknights over the course of an entire game assuming other units don't interfere.
Now I know it was in relation to what could beat a certain list, but I believe we have taken our eye off the ball here - it is not exactly a shining endorsement of wraithknights being balanced.

As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

 Iechine wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

I don't play Eldar (fair disclaimer: my gf does, she's my most frequent opponent) and I agree with him. Maybe you should entertain the thought that you're the one who's wrong?

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

My gf likes elves, that's why she started to collect Eldar. We're not rich, buying a second army isn't in it. And now you say she should feel ashamed for playing the faction? You're a donkey-cave.

And for the record, my three games with Orks against new Eldar so far were all victories (two against her, one against another player).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

Check the actual formation page for the 3 hunters

Check the actual formation page for the 3 hunters

I am, but its the interactive edition on the Ipad, its not mentionning a thing about it.
Maybe its a glitch but there is no mention of it

I have the E-Book version and it is clearly indicated the Crimson Death Formation gives each flier a 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if they opt to Jink.

Unahim, I should qualify my statement to include fluffy players who chose the army for aesthetic reasons only, to be exempt so long as they don't spam for advantage.

Also, you must be killing at tournaments then. I'm really surprised you aren't topping the tournaments with Eldar generally being a large portion of the top 10, you must have a cakewalk in the final 4 am I right?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

WK are LoW

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

WK are LoW

And you can take 12 LoW within the Craftworld Formation. CAD only has one. This isn't a CAD.

Maybe I have a different codex then yours but this is a screenshot of the formations rules.

Clearly no mention about a defensive bonus

Maybe its because im canadian.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Maybe I have a different codex then yours but this is a screenshot of the formations rules.

Clearly no mention about a defensive bonus

Maybe its because im canadian.

I don't know how long that screen shot will stay posted, but yes, the line about them getting the free 4+ is missing from your copy. Such things happen from time to time with digital copies. I don't buy them any more.

Oops, is this not allowed? Even with no points and a rule missing?

I can take it out I guess but this isnt even showing you what the rule really is.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

This is an honest question and not sarcasm at all. Have you ever played against centstar? It can't be tied up, it ignores cover most of the time, can target 2 WK's a turn killing one outright, and usually can only be hit on 6's. If it gets caught for a round of combat yes the WK's would ravage it, but if the Knights spread out to cover the board for assault purposes they get picked off. Again I said "moderately" confident. But that's a bit hyperbolic to say no shot.

I have. They can be tied up. Just because you MAY get GOI, doesn't mean you're going to get to use it. Same with invisibility, which does not affect stomps, remember. Eldar, demons, and GK have reliable access to the most psychic dice to deny key power.

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

Wow, well, I appreciate I'm jumping on a comment that is four pages back, but, I just couldn't let this one go past me. I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you've said. I have been playing orks for years. I know pretty much every unit inside out, and have played pretty much every combination of builds you can think of, from fast to slow and powerful, and I literally have NO idea how you think that the codex can compete with Eldar and Necrons. Over and above my own experience, the statistics show that Orks are one of the, if not THE weakest army in tournament play. I literally have no idea how you can compare Lootas to D weapons, and let's not forget the horror that is the new Eldar Jet bike scatter laser spam.

If there was true balance between codices, (qudos by the way for getting that one right!) then the tournament stats would show a relatively even W/L ratio for each faction. Unfortunately that is simply not the case, none of the stats show this trend, but instead show a strong, consistent lead for eldar in virtually every tournament out there.

While yes, the Ork codex was the first written for 7th, that doesn't actually mean it can compete in the meta of 7th. And I challenge you to find a gaming community that will allow you to run an unbound list in anything other than a pre-setup game between two friends who are doing something fun and fluffy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

Nicely put sir.

 goblinzz wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

Wow, well, I appreciate I'm jumping on a comment that is four pages back, but, I just couldn't let this one go past me. I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you've said. I have been playing orks for years. I know pretty much every unit inside out, and have played pretty much every combination of builds you can think of, from fast to slow and powerful, and I literally have NO idea how you think that the codex can compete with Eldar and Necrons. Over and above my own experience, the statistics show that Orks are one of the, if not THE weakest army in tournament play. I literally have no idea how you can compare Lootas to D weapons, and let's not forget the horror that is the new Eldar Jet bike scatter laser spam.

If there was true balance between codices, (qudos by the way for getting that one right!) then the tournament stats would show a relatively even W/L ratio for each faction. Unfortunately that is simply not the case, none of the stats show this trend, but instead show a strong, consistent lead for eldar in virtually every tournament out there.

While yes, the Ork codex was the first written for 7th, that doesn't actually mean it can compete in the meta of 7th. And I challenge you to find a gaming community that will allow you to run an unbound list in anything other than a pre-setup game between two friends who are doing something fun and fluffy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

Nicely put sir.

AV 13 and AV 14 Neuter Scatterbikes. Painboyz mitigate high volume of fire.

Our league plays every Thursday and not a single player has ever said boo to me about playing unbound lists.

If an Eldar player only brought Scatterbikes and WK with D weapons, I'd shoot the bikes and assault the WK's and tie them up with a fearless unit. If you require me to play CAD, so be it. I'll still play. Playing = winning. Not playing = auto lose. Everytime I took out the old Fateweaver with only snap shots and his damned re-rolling all saves, it was a celebration. Shooting a Reverent Titan with holo shields through a Void Shield generator is a pain. Still played.

You make your own terms in games and life and you decide if you won or not. So, are you a winner or a loser?

Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

 Orock wrote:
Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

I know, its like GW purposefully left that one glaring weakness in the codex.

If a player falls into the codex trap of spamming 65 scatter bikes they will be defeated by all the battle wagons and land raiders.


The one weakness of the eldar codex: AV 14... nothing to answer that, nope not a thing...not one thing at all...

 goblinzz wrote:

If there was true balance between codices, (qudos by the way for getting that one right!) then the tournament stats would show a relatively even W/L ratio for each faction.

Not necessarily. There could be a sociological reason for differences in W/L ratios between factions based on what kind of people are drawn to what kind of factions. Maybe orcs have a natural appeal to less intellectually endowed players. (Not saying this is the case, just an example of something that could explain variance in W/L other than "X codex is OP".) Sort of like professional wrestling draws specific demographics of viewers, perhaps particular factions are the same, appealing to specific demographics that, in turn, perform differently in tournament play.

In order to rule out such a situation, you'd have to basically run an extensive study using some sort of game that is perfectly balanced, that very few people, or no people have played previously. Then you'd take thousands and thousands of players of different factions and have them play hundreds of games against other players in this new game and check the results. If, at the end of the study, orc players scored equally well or better than other faction players WITHOUT eldar players excelling beyond the average, THEN, and only then, would your argument about W/L ratios in 40k tournaments hold any real substance. I eagerly await the results of your extensive study.

Look at history Aug 1999 Eldar got a new codex till it was replaced in Nov 2006. Their next codex was June 2013. Now this one.

Eldar had just 2 codexes over 14 years and they certainly did get kerb stomped for a fair bit of that time. Did everyone go "oh look he's taking Eldar I will just tone things down for him and go easy, poor wee space fairy".
I doubt it ... I won't deny Eldar their time in the sun it was along time coming. Nothing will be the same in 2 years time maybe less. As Eldar player I am happy to play with a strong book for a change. Its only for 2 out of the last 16 years. As to all the Eldar rage a lot is from people who don't play much anyway. A few years ago Space wolves had a mono build a 16 year old could win a national tournament with. Eldar have a huge variety of strong interesting builds. If your facing an Eldar list the same as your opponent fielded last time again its probably because the Eldar player doesn't want to play you any more.

the42up wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

I know, its like GW purposefully left that one glaring weakness in the codex.

If a player falls into the codex trap of spamming 65 scatter bikes they will be defeated by all the battle wagons and land raiders.


The one weakness of the eldar codex: AV 14... nothing to answer that, nope not a thing...not one thing at all...

Wow way to selectively respond to my post. Good for you. Well, I know one thing that won't beat Eldar, lame ass attempts at sarcasm. Have fun taking your ball and going home. You want to be miserable and alone, that's exactly what you'll get. The rest of us have games to play.

Betrayeroftheworld, that would be a good way to settle things, but a sample portion of tournaments will give us a good enough idea of what kind of power each codex has. Pudding proof and all.

Besides, when someone sees a mathematically superior codex and jumps ship to it, does not mean the codex is somehow no longer magnetically superior.

Drunken Angel wrote:
Look at history Aug 1999 Eldar got a new codex till it was replaced in Nov 2006. Their next codex was June 2013. Now this one.

Eldar had just 2 codexes over 14 years and they certainly did get kerb stomped for a fair bit of that time. Did everyone go "oh look he's taking Eldar I will just tone things down for him and go easy, poor wee space fairy".
I doubt it ... I won't deny Eldar their time in the sun it was along time coming. Nothing will be the same in 2 years time maybe less. As Eldar player I am happy to play with a strong book for a change. Its only for 2 out of the last 16 years. As to all the Eldar rage a lot is from people who don't play much anyway. A few years ago Space wolves had a mono build a 16 year old could win a national tournament with. Eldar have a huge variety of strong interesting builds. If your facing an Eldar list the same as your opponent fielded last time again its probably because the Eldar player doesn't want to play you any more.

The 2006 codex was viable into 5th. The Eldar have had the consistently best codex in game for the entire history of the game! Don't forget the insanity of the 2nd ed codex.

Eldar have been amazing for much of the game, possibly even the best for most of the game. But it has certainly not been the best for the entire history of the game.

2-3 years ago, for over half of 6th edition, they were not even a good Codex. Much less the best.

Bharring wrote:
Eldar have been amazing for much of the game, possibly even the best for most of the game. But it has certainly not been the best for the entire history of the game.

2-3 years ago, for over half of 6th edition, they were not even a good Codex. Much less the best.

I was averaging it. CONSISTENTLY best. Basically, add up the time that all factions have spent at the top of the heap, and Eldar would dominate that stat hands down.

 PipeAlley wrote:

the42up wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

I know, its like GW purposefully left that one glaring weakness in the codex.

If a player falls into the codex trap of spamming 65 scatter bikes they will be defeated by all the battle wagons and land raiders.


The one weakness of the eldar codex: AV 14... nothing to answer that, nope not a thing...not one thing at all...

Wow way to selectively respond to my post. Good for you. Well, I know one thing that won't beat Eldar, lame ass attempts at sarcasm. Have fun taking your ball and going home. You want to be miserable and alone, that's exactly what you'll get. The rest of us have games to play.

Sarcasm aside he's correct. Even with your jetbike spam you can EASILY deal with AV13/14, because that's only on the front, battlewagons and Leman Russ are almost all AV10 on the rear, occaisonnaly AV11. With 5+ units of jetbikes with S6, it will NOT take them long to get behind heavy vehicles and knock them out quickly afterwards.

And as for your other point, about playing unbound, fair enough, your meta appears to allow that. However, at tournaments, that is literally NEVEr allowed, so while yes, you probably can spam the hell out of units using unbound to deal with eldar, that isn't an option at tournaments.

FratHammer wrote:

Besides, when someone sees a mathematically superior codex and jumps ship to it, does not mean the codex is somehow no longer magnetically superior.

Not all nuances of codices can be given a numeric value, and so a purely mathematical evaluation of a codex is, itself, flawed.

Betrayeroftheworld, as it's a purely tested one with control groups. But your rational betrays you Eldar! Dun dun dun!

Personal opinion, but I dont think you can defend strength D weapons outside of Apoc, alot of armies dont even have access to it, or not ranged Str D anyway...

FratHammer wrote:
Betrayeroftheworld, that would be a good way to settle things, but a sample portion of tournaments will give us a good enough idea of what kind of power each codex has. Pudding proof and all.

Besides, when someone sees a mathematically superior codex and jumps ship to it, does not mean the codex is somehow no longer magnetically superior.

I can say without any doubt that all of the codexes are magnetically balanced against each other.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

FratHammer wrote:
Betrayeroftheworld, that would be a good way to settle things, but a sample portion of tournaments will give us a good enough idea of what kind of power each codex has. Pudding proof and all.

Besides, when someone sees a mathematically superior codex and jumps ship to it, does not mean the codex is somehow no longer magnetically superior.

I can say without any doubt that all of the codexes are magnetically balanced against each other.

One might even say they're... polar opposites.

Disclaimer: I'm an Eldar player, love the new codex, and not given to any form of spam. I'm much more of a fluff player (Ulthwe). Only use a Wraithknight over 2k pts as I think they belong in larger, more epic battles. Don't have the money to use multiple Wraithknights and prob wouldn't if I could.

I'm in the camp that the new changes are powerful but not OP. I think there are counters out there and that some players have gotten lazy and relied on deathstars and using the same rigid tactic and list over and over. Time to adapt.

I say all of this with the confidence that the Eldar codex, and possibly the Necron codex, were the start of something new and more epic. The new Astartes codex will be out soon which will notch things up for them so many of these issues aren't as bad, and as the majority of players play Astartes I think these threads will quieten down afterwards. I think we just need a bit of patience.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:


Maybe orcs have a natural appeal to less intellectually endowed players.

Hmmm. Maybe Eldar appeals to deluded peri-pubescent shut-ins who think they're the reincarnation of Bobby Fischer, Erwin Rommel, George Patton and Napolean rolled into one. Not saying that's the case. But you know it's just social Darwinism. It makes sense. Eldar players are all intellectually superior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and you misspelled C L A M O R I N G.

Oh, it's like tabletop racism, right?

All eldar players are pedant snobs who wear white gloves, treat other players as lesser beings and move models holding them with 2 fingers and little finger sticking out. They can move miniatures and run or run and move miniatures.

All ork players are stupid brutes that move models stomping them with fists than run around the table screaming WAAAAAAGH! When there is more than one ork player of ~ the same size in flgs, they start kicking each other to find out who's orkier.

All ig players wear helmets and die for the emperor from stiff breeze. They move models with bayonettes. They start moving models faster when there's a comissar nearby.

You obviously didn't read his post. His point on is along the lines of: if top players all think that X army is the best, and X army wins the most tournament games this could be the result of X army being the best, or it could be the result of a lot of top players playing army X, or a mixture of the two. This is a perfectly valid point. I guess some people feel better about themselves by finding excuses to insult others.

I find it amusing that WKs appear to be the main concern. A lot of tournaments outright ban LoWs or limit you to one. That however is not your only problem. Crimson death, dual hemlocks, scouting d-cannons (using Eldrad who casts eldritch storm with a possible 10" pie plate) and a bunch of bikers can all be fit in one list. I saw a list like that hurt centstar. There were just too many dangerous units and invisibility was toned down in this scenario as well.

I think the issue is that Eldar have too many under costed units. Seriously - 55 points for a T7 d-weapon platform. Wraith flyers now Lvl2? You have a unit that flys on turn 2 and even with a scatter can hurt most anything on the table in pairs. All their flyers are vector dancing too and the crimson death is just silly.

I'm not saying there are no counters. I played an eldar air list against a very good Nid list and lost (barely but lost) in a test match. Now Eldar is not my go to army - I prefer playing my 30k but I have the models and use them on occasion. Of course I'll be making changes to the eldar list but flyrants/mawlocs and lictors with malenthrope and void shields still works against Eldar. Flyrants can handle crimson death formation.

Eldar have been powerful for awhile. There has only been a small window where they were not top of the pile in the years that I've played 40k. We all adjusted to that. This codex, however, just seems outright abusive. In the hands of top players ( I don't pretend to be one) it is going to be in the top five at every event even without WK. Even if they ban all d weapon units, the codex is still strong (although I do not see banning WG and Wraith flyers and vaul's d cannons being fair. That is just too many units from a single codex).

Go ahead and ban all D weapons. You still have:
9 special characters
4 HQ's
5 Troops
4 Elites
6 Fast Attack
7 Heavy support (vaul batteries do have 2 other options)
1 Lord of War

That's on par with space marines, and far more options than most other armies.
And what units do eldar get that are loser choices?
Storm Guardians, Vibro cannons and wraith lords. Seriously, Eldar have 30 normal units, of which 27 of them are good. That's pretty amazing.

 goblinzz wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

the42up wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

I know, its like GW purposefully left that one glaring weakness in the codex.

If a player falls into the codex trap of spamming 65 scatter bikes they will be defeated by all the battle wagons and land raiders.


The one weakness of the eldar codex: AV 14... nothing to answer that, nope not a thing...not one thing at all...

Wow way to selectively respond to my post. Good for you. Well, I know one thing that won't beat Eldar, lame ass attempts at sarcasm. Have fun taking your ball and going home. You want to be miserable and alone, that's exactly what you'll get. The rest of us have games to play.

Sarcasm aside he's correct. Even with your jetbike spam you can EASILY deal with AV13/14, because that's only on the front, battlewagons and Leman Russ are almost all AV10 on the rear, occaisonnaly AV11. With 5+ units of jetbikes with S6, it will NOT take them long to get behind heavy vehicles and knock them out quickly afterwards.

And as for your other point, about playing unbound, fair enough, your meta appears to allow that. However, at tournaments, that is literally NEVEr allowed, so while yes, you probably can spam the hell out of units using unbound to deal with eldar, that isn't an option at tournaments.

Your statements about Tounamnets are sad but true. If I play in two a year, that's a lot for me. I play almost all my games in a Thursday night FLGS league. Tournaments have all sorts of crazy house rules, way more than any league I've been in. The last one I attended had a 3 equal part score: overall score in games, sportsmanship, and painting. If a single model didn't have at least 3 colors you got a zero for the entire painting score. Naked bases also set people back a lot. I've got some models from the 90's not painted yet. Of course the Stompa isnt painted yet. Oh well, knew that going in and still was at top table for the final game. Played 3 games in one day? That's a good day.

Scatterbikes can glance AV 12 sides that is true but they'll be going through 4+ cover and/or 5++ inv and while they're shooting the BW's, the Boyz are whittling them down as well. Tanks will die, Boyz will die, Eldar will die. Fun will be had.

Oh man kooai I LOLd hard!

 doktor_g wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:


Maybe orcs have a natural appeal to less intellectually endowed players.

Hmmm. Maybe Eldar appeals to deluded peri-pubescent shut-ins who think they're the reincarnation of Bobby Fischer, Erwin Rommel, George Patton and Napolean rolled into one. Not saying that's the case. But you know it's just social Darwinism. It makes sense. Eldar players are all intellectually superior.


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Oh and you misspelled C L A M O R I N G.

OMG I literally laughed out loud. "you misspelled C L A M O R I N G"... hahaha... whew... <wipes away a single tear> Somebody got owned and it doesn't look like it was an ork player.

 doktor_g wrote:

Hmmm. Maybe Eldar appeals to deluded peri-pubescent shut-ins who think they're the reincarnation of Bobby Fischer, Erwin Rommel, George Patton and Napolean rolled into one. Not saying that's the case. But you know it's just social Darwinism. It makes sense. Eldar players are all intellectually superior.

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Oh and you misspelled C L A M O R I N G.

Haha, love you too!

But he was right. You missed the point and lost the battle while scouring the thread for spelling errors. Silly ork.

I don't need to "scour" when its in the title. I like eldar BTW. They taste like chicken.

Kidding and jabs aside. There WAS some give and take in CW. We (ghetto codecies) are mainly jealous, truth be told.

 doktor_g wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:


Maybe orcs have a natural appeal to less intellectually endowed players.

Hmmm. Maybe Eldar appeals to deluded peri-pubescent shut-ins who think they're the reincarnation of Bobby Fischer, Erwin Rommel, George Patton and Napolean rolled into one. Not saying that's the case. But you know it's just social Darwinism. It makes sense. Eldar players are all intellectually superior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and you misspelled C L A M O R I N G.

C L A M O U R I N G

For those of us from the nation of tea-drinkers over the pond

Anyway, I may have a chance to see how bust the space-elves are on sunday - playing my housemate's heavily proxied grey knights (they kicked my necron butt last weekend). He's trying to decide whether to invest in them, but given how much I got savaged, it's likely.

His list is along the lines of:

Inquisitor x2, cyberskulls
2 units of acolytes? (can't remember really, they died very quickly and were just there for warp charge)
2 units of 8 Terminators w/ML3 librarian
2 dreadknights
purifiers in a storm raven

I have the following models:

Farseer skyrunner
Farseer
Autarch with wings
Avatar
2 Warlocks
18 jetbikes
15 dire avengers
24 guardians plus assorted weapon platforms
5 wave serpents
3 falcons
1 fire prism
4 war walkers
1 crimson hunter
6 dark reapers
10 striking scorpions
10 banshees
10 fire dragons
5 wraithguard
2 wraithlords (really wish these were good... sigh).

I can proxy stuff up as needed, but would prefer to play with actual models. Can anyone suggest a good list? Some tactical advice?

I am guessing I can limit his psychic phase if I go with Eldrad+ Council, and then use dire avenger shrine or guardians to bladestorm his terminators/dreadknights to death. I might want to take shuricannons on the jetbikes rather than scatterlasers for that purpose too.

I'd really like to try out the falcon deepstrike ... I guess with fire dragons and dire avengers or reapers that would be good against the terminators?

Oh, 1850 pts. There will be plenty of terrain.

 Orock wrote:
Av 13 and 14 defeat scstbikes alright. I feel terrible for eldar, that huge glaring weakness with no ways to deal with it. Surely 30 of them takes up 1850 points leaving them no choice but to concede when the field floods with battlewagon's and leman Russ tanks.

or knights...


not to mention the butt load of str 6, ap3, ignores cover shooting that ad mech can put out....

I think charlie from Elite 40k made a good comparison post regarding the D-weapon changes.

Charlie from Elite 40k wrote: Wraiths and D
Many tears have been cried over the change to Distort weapons, upgrading them to the 'dreaded D' that so many players still irrationally fear. But how much of a difference is there really between S10 and D?

Let's start with the much-maligned Wraithknight and its pair of Heavy Wraithcannon. These were S10 AP2 with Instant Death on a 6. In other words, they were already:

Wounding everything on 2+
Always one-shotting T5 and lower
One-shotting T6+ on a 6 (except Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking a HP automatically from AV10 and AV11
Taking a HP on a 2+ from the very common AV12
Taking a HP on a 3+ or 4+ against the rarer AV13 and AV14

With the change to D, the Heavy Wraithcannon is now:

Still wounding everything on a 2+
Still always one-shotting T5 and lower
Still one-shotting T6+ on a 6 (now including most Gargantuans and Eternal Warriors)
Taking D3 HP on a 2+ regardless of AV
One-shotting vehicles on a 6 (except the most expensive Super Heavies)
Ignoring cover and invulnerable saves on a 6

Yes, things changed. But the sky is not falling. They were buffed in several ways, and nerfed in several others. Did they come out slightly stronger than before? I don't think so. I think, with the normal tournament rules regarding LoWs and Gargantuan creatures that have been in place since before their codex released, they are likely a weaker codex now with the loss of the spamable twin-linked wave serpents. That said, I still think they're a good, powerful codex, which is something I think should be able to be said for any codex that's released. All codices should have a "Wow" factor, where when you read it for the first time, at several points you should say to yourself, "Wow, that's awesome."

If whatever faction you play didn't give you that feeling, or you feel like you can't compete with other codices, that is GW's failing in writing your codex, not a failure of everyone else's. Like DE. They got proper F'ed in the A. Their codex is so mediocre at everything that it makes them a chore to use. All the interesting fluff and special characters that gave them flair in last edition whittled down to a cast of underperforming characters that are a shadow of their former selves, as if DE were overpowered and needed less options. They didn't. I feel like DE would have been better served by not getting an update at all. Their most recent codex release seemed like an underpowered rehash of their old codex, that served no purpose other than to suck the fun out of the faction and give them an excuse to release the covens supplement and related models. It was a cash grab that hurt the faction, and the game as a whole. Don't blame eldar players because GW makes choices like these, stranding their loyal fanbases with crappy codices for multiple years. Perhaps the latest codices of necrons and eldar are signs of the future direction of GW's creation philosophy for core factions, where every faction will be awesome. One may hope.

I think all the eldar changes are reasonable in comparison to the imperial knights who roll insane amounts of dice have (basically) a sort of titan void shield..or the insane buff of white scars chapter tactics.

The only change I think that wasn't that "normalised" properly was troop jetbikes all with heavy weapons, but they took out target lock, so I do understand why.

For those that doubt the logic of this let me explain: Eldar were an awesome str6/7 avoids cover army that could *hit* 50 or 60 shots at that str a turn reliably.

Now they have about 25-35 str 6 hits with little avoids cover. In place of that they got extra abilities vs high wound targets and heavy armour

Conan did you forget Eldar use psychic powers?
And wraithknights trash knights and cost less...
Not only that, but you're saying, hey, taken individually single broken units in the Eldar army aren't as broken as the 1 broken thing in 1 other codex... But they have a codex full of things most of us would die for. Changes we heard would happen to stormboys to make them viable were given to Eldar... Special rules we had last codex with our bikes were given to everyone, then other armies got it buffed...

Look I'm with you Eldar players on the fact that any faction would love the codex treatment you just got. I would be tremendously happy were orks to be as good. What sucks the most is the codex easiest to randomly pick units from blindfolded and win a game, got even better. That's super not cool.

Give sisters this codex and new awesome plastic models. Give dark angels a good codex, chaos SM, tyrannids... Just make it so anyone could run the units they think are cool, and be able to be competitive and everyone would be happy. But they don't understand balance, rules writing, editing, or care about their customer base. Yet somehow we allow it because the other options don't have the same feel.

Before I get a bunch of statements, yes flyrrants are boss and some builds can be made competitive from those codices by use of a single model, but I am saying, like with craftworld Eldar, all of our codices should be able to have all of our units be good-awesome, not 1 be broken and the rest unusable.

To head of the next group, yes some codices are better across the board than others and don't have 1 broken unit and several useless ones. Like orks, we're pretty good across the board, same with Necron and SM... Others... Not so much.

Sent from my phone unedited. Go ahead and poke at magnetic when my phone incorrectly places what I Swype in.

It was only in fun.

Frat... let me help you out here. You are wasting your time. You won't convince anyone that's not already convinced. I have been told that math-hammer makes no difference. I have been told that the winningest army at the majors is just because smarter players play them. That point costs are truely representative of the underlying power (a la Wraithknight vs Morkanaut) etc. Brother, go to painting and modeling. Just forget about it. It's like telling a crazy person that the tinfoil hat isn't doing them any good or that those things behind airplanes is water vapor... They will never believe you despite how impenetrable your logic is.

FratHammer wrote:

Look I'm with you Eldar players on the fact that any faction would love the codex treatment you just got.

...no, thanks. I still want to have some games with the models that i like without any need for an hour-like negotiation on what i'm not supposed to bring from the stuff i own in a friendly game or what i must homerule to be nerfed to not break the game.

Kooai... I'd all our codices were the same way it wouldn't be over powered... That's the whole point...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To elaborate and explain myself further, what I mean by the treatment the Eldar book got is that it's a book as large as the sm book, with no weak useless units, with lots of fluff and mechanics made to match their fluff. If everyone had a codex like this we'd all be fair, even, fluffy versions of our armies. No one would complain. Problem is, gw it's not likely to care about any codex this much besides SM who should be similarly unbalanced.

FratHammer wrote:
No one would complain.

There is where you're wrong. Someone will ALWAYS complain, even if everything were completely fair and balanced, someone would make the argument that it wasn't, or complain that 100% balance made the game boring.

Settled on name for my Craftworld: Queribundica (from 'Queribundus'). Enjoy.

That is your opinion of others leaking all over us again. Try to contain yourself Betrayer.



Edited: You know...i don't even pass over the t for "is" or "us"... So why do you do this Swype!?

IMHO, the wraithknight should have been a 0-1 choice, and another 100 points, and they should have buffed wraithlords somehow (maybe access to shimmershield and D-weapons?).

I love the model so much... but he's just kinda pants :(

BTW, look at the formation rules for the aspect and dire avenger shrines... the BS bonus applies to all *models* in the formation, so if you take Wave Serpents, they are BS5...

roflcopters.

I find that the Wraithlord is actually a pretty hilarious indication of how much power creep there has been in 40K over the last few years. Back int he 4th-5th ed codex WL was a great unit, the strongest and toughest MC in the game, and a great unit to through on the table because of the threat he represented.

Then the 6th ed codex came out, which nerfed him a little but drastically reduced his points, and yet still he became a unit that isn't even close to competitive any more. And 7th ed just made that gap greater. This unit that basically hasn't changed except to be made cheaper, went from one of the scariest units in the game to an afterthought that is only taken when a formation demands his presence.

chanceafs wrote:
This unit that basically hasn't changed except to be made cheaper,

Strength changed from 10 to 8.

Points cost is at most expensive it's ever been, not cheaper.

Game meta has changed from assault to shooting. Shooting Wraithlords is easy, assaulting near them was bad news.

I think eldar are perfectly fine but as much as I want to say they're broken, there definitely needs to be an answer or something to compete with their intensity that their codex seems to be able to put out.

I wanted to use a unit or 2 of Wraiths with axes, but I will not buy a Wraithknight to use with them.
I'm not happy :(
No matter how many LoW can fit in there, I'll only ever use the Avatar.

As for bikes, 1 heavy per 3 bikes.

Maybe I'm crippling myself for no real reason, but these seem to be the big 2 complaints. Those and S D. Another rule I'll try to avoid.

Can I make a cheesy list with these self-imposed limits? Almost certainly.
Will people play against them? We'll have to see...

Can I make a cheesy list with these self-imposed limits? Almost certainly.

With absolute certainty you can't. If you're not using WKs, strength D, and only use 1 heavy per 3 bikes, you're playing a codex that is undeniably much less powerful than the Eldar from the previous edition. It would be nowhere close to a tier 1 army, and light years away from a 'cheesy' one.

Serpents were nerfed, and the previous codex lists relied on a couple WKs to do a lot of heavy lifting. In addition armies other than Eldar got stronger or already had an answer to them.

While not cheese, even without those units, most Eldar armies will be stronger with the new dex than the old dex.

My 1500pt Swordwind uses none of them, and is now 1407. And most units in it got *better*.

That said, I think CAD-based armies that avoid the above will be reasonable. Footdar is still MEQ prices for T3 on foot.