One player's response to people clammoring about the "Broken" Eldar

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**AnomanderRake**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Chancetragedy wrote:
Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

Force. ID does d3 Wounds to Gargantuan Creatures.

**Dozer Blades**

Okay thanks for the tip on force versus GMC.

**Chancetragedy**

Yah it's just about the only bonus weapons get against GMC except fleshbane. Also "removed from play" attacks do the same D3 wounds.

**Alcibiades**

Shouldn't DE Ossefactors and Flesh Gauntlets hurt it pretty badly en masse?

**Chancetragedy**

I'm woefully under educated on D-Eldar specialty wargear like that atm. What does each do?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Occifactor works ok because of fleshbane still wounding GMC on 2+ Not sure how the calcific wounds interact though(edit: just reread it they don't interact because it would be dead if removed from play ;p). The flesh gauntlet on 6's would do D3 wounds but only wounds the WK on a 6 so I guess it's a moot point. Edit2:also the flesh gauntlet is AP- so probably not great.

**HawaiiMatt**

Alcibiades wrote:
Shouldn't DE Ossefactors and Flesh Gauntlets hurt it pretty badly en masse?

Ossefactors would be great, if it weren't for the unit packing them. It's 5 wracks per weapon, so 65 points per shot. Wounds on 2+, doesn't ignore cover, invul, or feel no pain.
Flesh Gauntlet needs a 6 to wound and you are up against the 3+ armor and FnP, making them pretty sub-par. Worst part is catching the wraith knight. If you're likely to take him out, you're unlikely to catch him with the infantry that packs them.

-Matt

**blaktoof**

extremefreak17 wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

Unless the suncannons got some upgrade that lets them pick out models, I would not be too worried about the nobs/bosses getting splatted from a str7 weapon that they can take FnP from and are inside a mob of 100+ Boys that are worth on avg 6 pts.

**Alcibiades**

Well to kill a Wraithknight should take about 16 Ossefactor shots if my math is right. So that's 1040 points to kill a Wraithknight in one round of shootting, assuming no cover saves.

**hiveof_chimera**

Alcibiades wrote:
Well to kill a Wraithknight should take about 16 Ossefactor shots if my math is right. So that's 1040 points to kill a Wraithknight in one round of shootting, assuming no cover saves.

And assuming he's not melee(he'd get the inv then)

**extremefreak17**

blaktoof wrote:
extremefreak17 wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the wraithknights heavy wraith cannon is not blast, and is 1 shot per.

So against deffkoptas it would average 2 rolls to hit at BS 4 or 1.32 hits.

as a D weapon it rolls on a chart. On 1 no effect, 2-5 the model suffers d3 wounds. 6 the model is pretty much dead and does not get cover[no jink save]

1.32 hits results in
.21 results of 1
.87 results of 2-5
.21 results of 6

on a 2-5 it does d3 wounds and you get cover which results in average 2 wounds, with cover[jink] you have a 33% chance to save. I wouldn't bother jinking.

End result without jink you have 1.1 casualties, average of 1 deffkopta dies a turn.

With jink you have .78 casualties, which will average still 1 most of the time.

10 deffkoptas will kill a Wk if you stay out of assault, and it has no other guns just the two heavy wraith cannons, but it will probably take 6 turns....would be hard to stay out of assault that whole time.

Unrelated to that, a greentide would hurt WKs. The heavy wraithcannons are wasted as they are gibbing 6 point boys most of the time, and if you catch a Wk in assault- when you cover the whole table it will happen, praise WAAAGHing every turn. 10 PK nobs and a PK warboss will put a lot of hurt out before stomps happen. Assuming BBP for +1 ws and fearless 10 nobs will have 40 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s, so 27 hits. With FC you are looking at S9 hits for wounding on 3+. Thats 18 wounds, it will FnP save 6 leaving 12, if it has the 5++ it will save 4 more still leaving 8. If not charging 10 nobs will hit 18 times, doing 9 wounds on average, after Fnp 6 wounds, average 4 if the model has shield also. That's without the warboss. Of course this assumes you get 10 nobs into assault range

You only need 8 nobs, or 6+ warboss to make it into assault to gib the WK before stomps. This unit of course would cost much more than a Wk, and against 4 Wks The stomps would hurt but being as you can probably get all the nobs and warboss into assault range with the boys[boys aren't doing much...] if there are 4 Wks in assault with the tide you are looking at killing 2 Wks a turn of assault if all the nobs and Warboss are fighting. Even if the tide gets charged by a Wk it will most likely crush it in 1 turn due to pile in moves. Considering if the orks charge the knights, and will likely wipe out 2 WKs before stomps, you are only looking at 2d3 stomps, average 4- each one will hit on average 5 models, so 20 rolls on the stomp table. 3 of those will instagib something, 3 will do nothing, and the remaining 14 will cause a str6 hit, which against boys will be 12 wounds before FnP, 8 after FnP. Total of 11 boys lost, most likely stomps will not kill nobs outright due to multi wounds. Those are pretty acceptable for a greentide. Especially since next round will most likely see 1-2 more Wks dead

What happens if the Nobs/bosses get splatted by the 2 sun cannon knights?

Unless the suncannons got some upgrade that lets them pick out models, I would not be too worried about the nobs/bosses getting splatted from a str7 weapon that they can take FnP from and are inside a mob of 100+ Boys that are worth on avg 6 pts.

My bad, thought we were talking about a single squad of nobs.

**Zomnivore**

Play what you want to play. Eldar, if they're broken w/e make the most broken thing ever and make the games silly.

GW has made them so OP that they're basically on par with the terribly un-competitive armies, and now you basically are forced to play for fun like the plebs.

Its so OP its gone back to house ruling for fun. GG. GW can't figure out how to nerf, so they break the mold on OPness and basically do the same thing anyway.

Effectively re-inforcing that the game's in the player's hands by doing all this rule jank stuff so you're playing a game having fun, and feeling comfortable adapting rules to support that.

#silverlining

**Alcibiades**

Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

**HawaiiMatt**

Alcibiades wrote:
Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

2/3rds hits, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail invul, 2/3 fail feel no pain. Every 4.05 shots is 1 wound. Has 6 wounds. Need 10 units of 10 wracks (1300 points) to have a shot at dropping 1.
At which point you lose to a single wave serpent, as you have nothing left to kill armor, after blowing 1300 points on wracks.

-Matt

**Alcibiades**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Ha. The Carnival of Pain will, I think, give you almost enough Wracks to get all those Ossefiers.

Give them some Hex Rifles too!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giant glass Waithknight comes crashing to the ground, shattering...

2/3rds hits, 5/6 wound, 2/3 fail invul, 2/3 fail feel no pain. Every 4.05 shots is 1 wound. Has 6 wounds. Need 10 units of 10 wracks (1300 points) to have a shot at dropping 1.
At which point you lose to a single wave serpent, as you have nothing left to kill armor, after blowing 1300 points on wracks.

-Matt

I specifically said "the Carnival of Pain." Which means what, 7 Taloi I think and a bunch of Raiders.

Anyway I am being somewhat facetious.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and Grotesques. Hmmm, Grotesques.

**notredameguy10**

Durandal wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

You can only have 1 LoW per the basic detachments, so this list is invalid. Even so, if you are taking 5 LoW choices, your opponent can take 5 too. I mean I don't see people screaming about taking 5 Cobras in an Eldar list, and those occupy the same force org slot and have a larger blast template.

The omission of the Wraithguard and D cannon is telling. No one seems afraid of those, they are all afraid of legions of Wraithknights.
So yes, L2P. If you can't handle wraithguard with cannons how could you handle a Centstar?

You should probably read the codex before making comments like that. You can theoretically take up to 12 Wraithknights in 1 detachment.

**Poly Ranger**

What I've established from the last page of discussion is that people are generally in agreement, but not fully, that a unit costing almost 1k, with the most optimal weaponary in the game against wraithknights (not including D), which is always successful on its powers and deepstrike rolls, playing on planet bowling ball and doesn't have a poor turns shooting all game, can kill ~ one and a half times its points cost in wraithknights over the course of an entire game assuming other units don't interfere.
Now I know it was in relation to what could beat a certain list, but I believe we have taken our eye off the ball here - it is not exactly a shining endorsement of wraithknights being balanced.

**FratHammer**

As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

**Unahim**

Iechine wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of your thread is. To be honest, you really come off as the typical eldar player so far removed from the rest of the codices ("Come on guys, its not THAT bad") and that does nothing to offer any perception of an exploitable weakness in this new codex that anyone would garner as tactically helpful.

You make it clear that your original Eldar codex (You know the most winning tournament codex) was able to beat all but 1 opponent, and that that codex has just gotten extremely buffed (No rational player can possibly deny this). To say that not a lot has changed is disingenuous and does nothing to help your argument. In short, I think Naw hit it on the head.

I don't play Eldar (fair disclaimer: my gf does, she's my most frequent opponent) and I agree with him. Maybe you should entertain the thought that you're the one who's wrong?

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

My gf likes elves, that's why she started to collect Eldar. We're not rich, buying a second army isn't in it. And now you say she should feel ashamed for playing the faction? You're a donkey-cave.

And for the record, my three games with Orks against new Eldar so far were all victories (two against her, one against another player).

**Massaen**

AnomanderRake wrote:
fartherthanfar wrote:

I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

Check the actual formation page for the 3 hunters

**fartherthanfar**

Check the actual formation page for the 3 hunters

I am, but its the interactive edition on the Ipad, its not mentionning a thing about it.
Maybe its a glitch but there is no mention of it

**Sarigar**

I have the E-Book version and it is clearly indicated the Crimson Death Formation gives each flier a 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if they opt to Jink.

**FratHammer**

Unahim, I should qualify my statement to include fluffy players who chose the army for aesthetic reasons only, to be exempt so long as they don't spam for advantage.

Also, you must be killing at tournaments then. I'm really surprised you aren't topping the tournaments with Eldar generally being a large portion of the top 10, you must have a cakewalk in the final 4 am I right?

**Jaq Draco lives**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

WK are LoW

**HawaiiMatt**

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

WK are LoW

And you can take 12 LoW within the Craftworld Formation. CAD only has one. This isn't a CAD.

**fartherthanfar**

Maybe I have a different codex then yours but this is a screenshot of the formations rules.

Clearly no mention about a defensive bonus

Maybe its because im canadian.

**BetrayTheWorld**

fartherthanfar wrote:
Maybe I have a different codex then yours but this is a screenshot of the formations rules.

Clearly no mention about a defensive bonus

Maybe its because im canadian.

I don't know how long that screen shot will stay posted, but yes, the line about them getting the free 4+ is missing from your copy. Such things happen from time to time with digital copies. I don't buy them any more.

**fartherthanfar**

Oops, is this not allowed? Even with no points and a rule missing?

I can take it out I guess but this isnt even showing you what the rule really is.

**Homeskillet**

Chancetragedy wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
Chancetragedy wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

This is an honest question and not sarcasm at all. Have you ever played against centstar? It can't be tied up, it ignores cover most of the time, can target 2 WK's a turn killing one outright, and usually can only be hit on 6's. If it gets caught for a round of combat yes the WK's would ravage it, but if the Knights spread out to cover the board for assault purposes they get picked off. Again I said "moderately" confident. But that's a bit hyperbolic to say no shot.

I have. They can be tied up. Just because you MAY get GOI, doesn't mean you're going to get to use it. Same with invisibility, which does not affect stomps, remember. Eldar, demons, and GK have reliable access to the most psychic dice to deny key power.

**goblinzz**

PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

Wow, well, I appreciate I'm jumping on a comment that is four pages back, but, I just couldn't let this one go past me. I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you've said. I have been playing orks for years. I know pretty much every unit inside out, and have played pretty much every combination of builds you can think of, from fast to slow and powerful, and I literally have NO idea how you think that the codex can compete with Eldar and Necrons. Over and above my own experience, the statistics show that Orks are one of the, if not THE weakest army in tournament play. I literally have no idea how you can compare Lootas to D weapons, and let's not forget the horror that is the new Eldar Jet bike scatter laser spam.

If there was true balance between codices, (qudos by the way for getting that one right!) then the tournament stats would show a relatively even W/L ratio for each faction. Unfortunately that is simply not the case, none of the stats show this trend, but instead show a strong, consistent lead for eldar in virtually every tournament out there.

While yes, the Ork codex was the first written for 7th, that doesn't actually mean it can compete in the meta of 7th. And I challenge you to find a gaming community that will allow you to run an unbound list in anything other than a pre-setup game between two friends who are doing something fun and fluffy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

Nicely put sir.

**PipeAlley**

goblinzz wrote:
PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

Wow, well, I appreciate I'm jumping on a comment that is four pages back, but, I just couldn't let this one go past me. I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you've said. I have been playing orks for years. I know pretty much every unit inside out, and have played pretty much every combination of builds you can think of, from fast to slow and powerful, and I literally have NO idea how you think that the codex can compete with Eldar and Necrons. Over and above my own experience, the statistics show that Orks are one of the, if not THE weakest army in tournament play. I literally have no idea how you can compare Lootas to D weapons, and let's not forget the horror that is the new Eldar Jet bike scatter laser spam.

If there was true balance between codices, (qudos by the way for getting that one right!) then the tournament stats would show a relatively even W/L ratio for each faction. Unfortunately that is simply not the case, none of the stats show this trend, but instead show a strong, consistent lead for eldar in virtually every tournament out there.

While yes, the Ork codex was the first written for 7th, that doesn't actually mean it can compete in the meta of 7th. And I challenge you to find a gaming community that will allow you to run an unbound list in anything other than a pre-setup game between two friends who are doing something fun and fluffy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FratHammer wrote:
As with the other orc players in the thread, I know my place is to play as tactically or fluffy or friendly as possible. I know everyone enjoys sorting my models of the table and watching me fight the stacked odds against me. I try to mitigate damage by reducing mistakes so games are interesting and fun.

Unlike other orc players though, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to be able to even have a close game against craft world for at least a couple months.

OP, I disagree about D weapons being a slight advantage. I disagree that anyone who plays eldar shouldn't be defensive and feel shame, and I disagree that when you say something along the lines of, "and I don't even build tournament lists and only lost once." Maybe try playing a codex where you can't close your eyes and randomly select units till you have 1850 points, and win 99% of the time. Or keep the training wheels on and rock out. Your call.

Nicely put sir.

AV 13 and AV 14 Neuter Scatterbikes. Painboyz mitigate high volume of fire.

Our league plays every Thursday and not a single player has ever said boo to me about playing unbound lists.

If an Eldar player only brought Scatterbikes and WK with D weapons, I'd shoot the bikes and assault the WK's and tie them up with a fearless unit. If you require me to play CAD, so be it. I'll still play. Playing = winning. Not playing = auto lose. Everytime I took out the old Fateweaver with only snap shots and his damned re-rolling all saves, it was a celebration. Shooting a Reverent Titan with holo shields through a Void Shield generator is a pain. Still played.

You make your own terms in games and life and you decide if you won or not. So, are you a winner or a loser?