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Yah I'm only talking about the list that was presented. I would need to change the thought process if the list changes. My current tournament centstar puts out base 14 dice with 2 detachments, with 3 detachments I can boost that base 18 dice without losing anything as far as power for the centurions go and I gain coteaz so you won't be deep striking within 12" of the centurions. I doubt one farseer from that list is stopping anything.

Also @mavnas you've got your math wrong because my centstar is invisible.
20 bikes is 80 shots 16% to hit so 13 hits, 66% to wound so 8 wounds 84% to save so you MAYBE kill 1 centurion if design isn't buffering.
With ALL the bikes being prescienced(highly unlikely due to my dice pool) double that number.

and again this is all hypothetical because honestly we don't even know what Eldar are actually going to look like. It's most likely gonna be a much more balanced mix of STRD and jetbikes. Nothing of these extremes.

Edit:@obsidiankatana again I ask this question honestly and without sarcasm or bile in my words. Have you actually played against centstar? I've been playing this list for over a year in various iterations and hundreds of games. I can honestly count on one hand how many times I haven't gotten gate+prescience+invis+perfect timing in my list and honestly it's probably like 75% chance to get all the powers needed off in a single phase. And if I really need a specific power the chances are astronomically small I don't get it off.

ITT lots of people who don't know what proper grav star is.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

If the bikes are being shot by grav the WK is not - and so this is counted as a success, for it gets to close distance and charge. And if the CentStar is using dice for a gate, it's not using dice for Invisibility. Getting both powers off requires a hefty warp charge investment that is not assured. Now to even HAVE both Gate and Invisibility, guaranteed, we're talking Draigo + Cents + Tigurius (although a GK librarian has good odds as well). Of that collection of models, only Draigo truly threatens eldar bikes in CC (Dev Cents have no CC weapons to speak of). If the GK Libby is taken, generates invisibility, and has been upgraded with not-a-force-staff, then you've two threatening models. Yet even between them, I'd put them hard-pressed to wipe out 6-9 jetbikes (~160-240pt investment on the Eldar player's part, assuming ScatBikes). Not sufficiently to guarantee they flee, and if they wipe them during their turn the damage has been done.

But here's the kicker - the ~800pt star can be feasibly threatened by ~550pts (9 Scatbikes and a stock WK). All the bikes need to do is either eat fire for a turn, or not die for a turn. The burden of accomplishing something rests on the GK player - avoiding / killing the Scatbikes and avoiding / killing the WK, while eating 36'' Str6 fire (still puts a wound a turn through, even with invisibility up, assuming 9 Scatbikes). And if invisibility fails to go off even once, the whole thing falls apart. Eldar have the maneuverability to immediately punish.

Draigo, Loth and a GK Libby with a daemonhammer will punk out the bike squad ker splat... plus Loth can shriek them with their crappy Ld8 so they probably won't even have to shoot them... Seriously.

And it's not like grav star needs to gate every turn... Maybe only 1-2 times a game.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Ooh! Ooh! I have a list that can beat this, and it isn't even tailored! Basically, my TAC list can beat it! And I don't even need Invisibility!

My math assumed that the invis got denied, which is very likely given that eldar can easily get 10+ dice to do it. And they dont need to every turn, just the one turn where they cripple the star.

That's not the army that was presented.

fair enough. then what's the math minus 3 warp charges and 20-36 SL' shots because I will eliminate an entire squad + upto 4 bikes before you can shutdown my invis and shoot me. As I'll just hide the cents behind LoS initially.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the army that was presented.

The army presented is bad and probably not legal in tournaments. Arguing whether it can be beaten is pointless and irrelevant.

Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

No it can't. Don't forget, the Eldar player will be losing 1 WK a turn. Then when he moves the WK's towards the centstar, it can just Gate to the opposite flank away from most of the WK's and shoot down another WK. Rinse and repeat, til all WK's are gone.

WK's just fold like wet toilet paper to centurionstars.

Mavnas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the army that was presented.

The army presented is bad and probably not legal in tournaments. Arguing whether it can be beaten is pointless and irrelevant.

We're not arguing, we're having a conversation. So let's converse present a list and theory it through. Here's my 2 current centstars I run and would put them up against anything Eldar has to offer.

Tiggy
2xlvl 3 GK Libby's - halberds
2x5 scouts - land speeder storms
1x5 strike squad
2xdreadknight - teleporter, incin, psycannon, hammers
5 centurions - grav, omni
Draigo

And alternate depending on missions
Tiggy
Libby - lvl 2, bike, axe, melta bombs
3xscouts - in storms
Storm raven - locator beacon
5 centurions - grav, omni
2xGK Libby - lvl 3, hammers
1x5 strike squad - incin
Draigo

@obsidian the best chance centstar has is if the Eldar player is dumb enough to charge all 5 WK right at the centstar. I would LOVE that as I already presented the math for killing 3 WK's every 2 turns.

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

No it can't. Don't forget, the Eldar player will be losing 1 WK a turn. Then when he moves the WK's towards the centstar, it can just Gate to the opposite flank away from most of the WK's and shoot down another WK. Rinse and repeat, til all WK's are gone.

WK's just fold like wet toilet paper to centurionstars.

Have you forgotten the 24'' range of grav guns and the 12'' range of WKs? Assuming 5 WKs (laughable list, but hey, it was presented) they have more than enough board presence to corner and eradicate a CentStar. Even assuming Gate + Invis every turn, and no meaningful scatters on Gate.

24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

Honestly the match up is pretty good for top Centstar players... in the tournament scene wise

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will most likely have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

This is discussing a posted list within this thread including 5 WKs. As I've stated before - it's hardly ideal, and I'd advise against it.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

First turn 2 WK's 24" from centstar one dies. Then the remaining wraithknight with 3 wounds remaining charges into draigo at I5 with reroll str7-9 force. Dies before it swings. Then second set of WK's is the same ole song and dance.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

Probably less though. If the eldar guy buys enough warlocks, he's probably only getting one WK there.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.


BTW, in CC, you can potentially encounter, with Hammerhand, a S10 GK Librarian, a S9 Draigo and a S8 Tigurius, all with Force Weapons and potentially Invisibility. Ha! Good luck surviving that.

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.

Are you responding to my latest post or another one? Because my latest post had parked Wraithknights. In such a way as regardless of the position of the Centurions, at least one WK is in a position to move, shoot, and charge them. But you seem to be entirely missing the point of what I've been trying to say. I know CentStars kill WKs. I've admitted several times that taking them in such large numbers is a horrible idea. What I'm saying is, even the ideal counter, if caught in CC, can be very swiftly put down by the very unit it counters.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

First turn 2 WK's 24" from centstar one dies. Then the remaining wraithknight with 3 wounds remaining charges into draigo at I5 with reroll str7-9 force. Dies before it swings. Then second set of WK's is the same ole song and dance.

Wait how many swings at what str are we assuming from the Cent star?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With this list, the Eldar player's best bet might be to have all the WKs close enough that they can all charge in and all stomp. With enough stomps, you get a 6, and if the star used Gate, they're clumped up nicely.

Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Knights are I5 as well, but if you shot one with grav weapons then they are concussed and I1 so everyone gets to go before them.

Ahhhh good point khaine!

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
24" inch range on grav guns eliminate the closest WK leaving the other at or beyond 24" meaning an 11-12" charge without fleet of 1/36 chance of getting a charge off then when all the WK's get close I teleport completely across the table and leave you to have to move back towards me.

2 WKs 24'' from one short edge, 2 24'' from the other short edge, one center field. You have no escape, again, assuming every-turn successful invisibility and no-scatter Gates.

Even the absolute ideal situation for the Censtar leaves an opening for everything to fall apart.

Have you forgotten that WK's are supposed to be moving 12" towards the star every turn? Because if they are still in the same position as they were before the Gate, then that means they aren't moving towards the star and the star can just move 6" a turn a shoot down a WK without any care in the world - no need to even Gate.

BTW, the censtar will be deployed to a flank so if you're trying to catch them, then that means you MUST be moving towards that flank.

Also, the effective range of Centurions is 30". That's 6" move and 24" guns.

Are you responding to my latest post or another one? Because my latest post had parked Wraithknights. In such a way as regardless of the position of the Centurions, at least one WK is in a position to move, shoot, and charge them. But you seem to be entirely missing the point of what I've been trying to say. I know CentStars kill WKs. I've admitted several times that taking them in such large numbers is a horrible idea. What I'm saying is, even the ideal counter, if caught in CC, can be very swiftly put down by the very unit it counters.

Why would you park your WK's? To get shot down by Centurions? Splitting the WK's is a horrible tactic against the centstar. 1 WK will die horribly to it, even in close combat. You need at least 2 or more WK's to kill them in combat and in order to do that, you need the WK's supporting each other.

In any case, WK-spam is a matchup that a centstar would love to go up against no matter what tactic the Eldar player employ. You're right about the spamming WK's being bad, however (at least against the centstar).

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
Love your first comment Pipeally

 PipeAlley wrote:
IMHO the only ever broken codex is the 2011 Grey Knights. So redonkulous OP for cheap. The only saving grace was the actual cost of the models prevented many from playing the most serious cheese lists.

Also, if you're willing to accept the ridicule of playing Eldar, you should be rewarded with something OP to offset the Real World shame all Eldar players must feel. Also, most of the whining comes from people with other OP armies.

Orks ain't complaining about the New Eldar, same as the Old Eldar. We had to sit through all of 5th and 6th with a 4th Ed codex and suffer huge nerfs when it came out. We played on.

I hope everyone runs out and buys the new wraithguard models just like they did with the Grey Knight Dreadknights and the Chaos Hell Turkeys. That's what keeps the game going while I'm still using 20th century models. I'm not sorry my Trukks are half the size of a Rhino and carry 6 MegaNobz. 100% GW legal model.

Ally Orks if you're worried. We have plenty of answers for Eldar, and Necrons, and Marines, and Chaos.

Just to make this an actual post regarding OP, are the range D weapons only 24"? Pfft, no problem. Lootas are 48". IMHO opinion no Codex choice should ever be banned as long as Unbound is allowed. Orks Codex was the first 7th edition codex and was specifically written to be used as Unbound.

There is balance between codices when there is no balance within codicies. Waoh that was totally zen!

As i see it, if eldar win, its like, no biggy, you werent expecting to win, but if you DO win, then WOW!

I like that us ork players just wonna see stuff blow up. The bigger and scarier the enemy (like a wraithknight for example), the more glorious when they get STOMPED

As for the Eldar codex, I dont agree at all with ANY of the buffs, but agree with the serpent nerf. Eldar didnt need to be buffed AT ALL and some people are rightly annoyed. However, that doesn't mean your opponents aren't gonna squish you if they can.

The D weapons are stupid. End of. there was NO NEED at all and a range of 12" is not a justification because they can take a wave serpent, which means they move 6, disembark 6 and shoot 12. so they effectively shoot 24". The main reason i think it is plain dumb is because they can take out basically anything in the game now. Oh, you have a vehicle worth more than my entire squad and transport with 4 hull points...? OH, NO YOU DONT.

Rant over.

Da boyz will be pickin eldar from der teef anyway.
WAAAGH!

^^ This guy gets it ^^

You win when you get to play. The game is its own reward.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Ld8 is crappy? It's above an above-average value for 2d6 tests. Wouldn't call it crappy, and if you're talking Draigo+Loth+GK+5x Cents then lets add 6 more bikes to the equation. Can they punk out 15 Scatbikes and a stock WK? Instinct tells me no. And the latter is still a cheaper option. If we went points-equivalent, this has to content with 2 WKs + 14 Scatbikes (968pts - with the CenStar at 975). I have full confidence that a CenStar will fold to this.

Now I'll agree (as I have before) that the list given is hardly optimized. Too many WKs, imo. But even that can simply brute force a Censtar. Charging all five WKs forward, you'll lose or two, the other 3-4 connect and clean up the star. Stomps ignore invisibility, and one six is all that's needed to make the vital portions of a CenStar disappear.

If you don't want to discuss the merits of scatbikes tying up gravstar that's okay. Ld8 is not good versus Shriek... Average roll on 3d6 is around 10 so you're typically losing two or more bikes then have to take a break check. Loth can select Terrify which makes it even worse odds.

I doubt many people would play a game versus 5 WK to be honest so it's kind of a moot point tbh.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In the tournament scene the centstar most likely will have to deal with no WK(Nova), single WK(0-1 LoW), and/or nerf S-D WK. Talking about facing multiple WKs is fine if your only a casual gamer.

Honestly the match up is pretty good for top Centstar players... in the tournament scene wise

And that's the whole point.
The current eldar book is broken to the point where the major tournaments have rules in place to prevent their use.
Interestingly, it's only invisibility that's giving the centstar a chance; if you're talking about tournaments, it's worth looking at how invisibility is getting tweeked as well. With the 1 D unit per army and invisibility limited to WS1 BS1 (instead of snap shots), the unit of scythes that arrive via webway portal wave serpent erases the centstar.

I'll be curious how those tournaments adjust to the new eldar book. Banning wraithguard, D cannons, Wraith Scythes, Heavy Wraith Cannons, Wraith Glaives and Wraith Fighters is an unprecedented amount of gimping.

And I did see 5 wraith knights go up against a cent-star. And it wasn't pretty. The star went invis, and ported in, killed a knight (barely, 5++ and FnP is rough), but scattered slightly too close. 3 Wraith Knights charged the star and stomped the piss out of it. Draigo needs 5+ to wound, which is ugly. After that, it was all about the knights.

Bike Grav game was very, very short. Bikes rolled in, unloaded and failed to down the knights. Knights charged in and cleaned house. The marine player blamed his dice, until he looked at the odds...
2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 pass invul (or cover) and 2/3 pass feel no pain. 6 wounds per knight. Takes more than 30 shots to kill 1, and he had 5.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Only draigo swings before the WK he has 4 swings at str 7-9(depending on if I cast hammer and just in case). He hits on 3's with re-rolls because I'm presc'd then wounds on a 3 or 5 doing D3 wounds per at AP2.

Then after that it's str6-8 tiggy, str 7 halberd at I4, and then str 10 hammer from Libby.

Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

 Dozer Blades wrote:
[If you don't want to discuss the merits of scatbikes tying up gravstar that's okay. Ld8 is not good versus Shriek... Average roll on 3d6 is around 10 so you're typically losing two or more bikes then have to take a break check. Loth can select Terrify which makes it even worse odds.

Not once did I say I didn't want to discuss it. In fact, I did discuss it. In the very post you quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why is Draigo inflicting d3 wounds per successful attack ? : )

Force activated on his sword. Instant death is D3 wounds per wound to GMCs