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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

No, its there. Look at the Crimson Death formation page, not the Crimson Hunter unit page.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Well SD ignores FNP inherently while S10 doesn't, and the old 6 was ID which could be offset by invulnerable saves and EW, the new 6 is just that model goes away.

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Because it does d3 wounds per 'wound', and d3 hullpoints per hit. Now they 1 shot every model in the game - it doesn't matter the model. From landraider to grot. They all die the same.

They also got stomps, which people seem to be forgetting about. And immunity to poison, which is huge on a T8 creature.

StD ignores fnp and causes d3 wounds - it's not just vehicles that it's improved against from st10.

In fact, the 3 things that were reliable-ish against it before where tarpitting hordes if they got into combat with it, poison weapons and other MCs. Which have all been neutered against it by stomps, immunity to poison and stD weapons respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also can't be stomped anymore by GCs and SHs and thunderblitz isn't as effective against it now.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

I feel moderately confident centstar can beat that depending on half decent terrain. I'm actually going to be testing against a list like that this week just for giggles. Even if I know I'll almost never see something that bad.

No chance. It only takes one WK to catch the deathstar and either tie it up or kill it outright. That leaves 4 WKs to ROFLstomp the rest of your army. You may take one out before you get caught IF you're lucky, but again that depends on cover saves and/or FNP for the WK.

This is an honest question and not sarcasm at all. Have you ever played against centstar? It can't be tied up, it ignores cover most of the time, can target 2 WK's a turn killing one outright, and usually can only be hit on 6's. If it gets caught for a round of combat yes the WK's would ravage it, but if the Knights spread out to cover the board for assault purposes they get picked off. Again I said "moderately" confident. But that's a bit hyperbolic to say no shot.

The issue with a centstar solution is superfast Jetbikes tying it up in CC until a WK can deal with it, I'd imagine. Granted, the proposed list isn't ideal (imo). Suffers for the same reason QuadTide lists did with newfound Tau. WKs are really good, but they don't answer everything as efficiently as other units. Swap a Knight for a trio of Nightspinners. Enjoy three Str10 AP 6 pseudo-rending barrage large blasts. Or give a bit more muscle to your bike numbers.

@obsidian I agree mostly, I'm just talking about something like the list he posted. "Worst case scenario" 5 WK's type situation. It's the start of unlocking how to beat Eldar. Figure out how to deal with the extremes then work your way to a more balanced area. Also the night spinners aren't touching any invis unit without a nerf to invis.

Its hard to take someone who argues that Eldar can still summon daemons in the new codex seriously LOL.

Funny..Eldar players are offended.

Sorry it's so tough on you.

There's NOTHING the new elder codex can't counter.

Hell you don't even need Flyers..Hawks take care of anything flying that bothers you.
Oh I just turbo boosted..no worries your Reapers reroll to hit and ignore jinks.
Banshee's screaming across the board..overwatch will slow them down..Nope not with a B-mask.

Can I stop now?

It will be interesting to see how the big tourney's counter the new Dex.

Nova will be a joy I'm sure..but it always is.

You have to out think the other guy and use your Jedi mind tricks to the full.

Denizen of the Dark City wrote:
Funny..Eldar players are offended.

Sorry it's so tough on you.

There's NOTHING the new elder codex can't counter.

Hell you don't even need Flyers..Hawks take care of anything flying that bothers you.
Oh I just turbo boosted..no worries your Reapers reroll to hit and ignore jinks.
Banshee's screaming across the board..overwatch will slow them down..Nope not with a B-mask.

Can I stop now?

It will be interesting to see how the big tourney's counter the new Dex.

Nova will be a joy I'm sure..but it always is.

You have to out think the other guy and use your Jedi mind tricks to the full.

To be fair, Banshees and Hawks are both still T3 4+ and die in droves to Lasguns and Bolters.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:


I have a question about the Cimson death formation, everyone is saying they get a free 4+ cover save that becomes re-rollable if you actually jink. but I have the codex and it only mentions that the formation gives prefered enemy to flyers and FMC. where is the cover save rule? what page?

It must have been a rumour or an exaggeration, they don't. All that changed about Crimson Hunters in this Codex is a points drop.

It's not an exaggeration. It's on page 144, right beneath the rule giving them preferred enemy to flyers and FMC.

Honestly the D-weapons wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have the bikes and vice versa.

The D-weapons can be countered with large model counts.
The bikes can be countered with high AV.

Combine the two, and you're left with nothing to counter the eldar with.

So the 5 WK list is a lot less scary than a 2-3 WK + 30 bikes list because the 5 WK list just doesn't have that many shots. Can they even shoot one IG 50-man blob down over the course of the game? (The bikes easily can.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ConanMan wrote:
seriously.. apart from the vehicle dmg how is str 10 any different to d? Think about what it was |before| and do the comparison to that..

I know new wk's are harder to kill but they also cost more pts and shot the damn same vs everything but a vehicle.

I am not saying they are not good but so are imperial knights..

Against infantry and MC the d3 damage, the 6 result that disallows saves and murders things?

A WK can one-shot a full health IK from range if he gets a lucky roll. The IK has no similar ability against the WK, but the WK is cheaper...

D-weapons are hardly countered by large model counts when they're available in blast and template form.

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

Uh huh..toughness 3 is the least of your worries.

But hey it's all good..the Eldar codex will make a lot of players better or thin the herd.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

Yeah, it's just you. You only have to take ONE of the 3 guardian hosts for a Craftworld Warhost.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Is it just me or is this not legal? A Craftworld Warhost requires a Guardian Host which consist of: a Gardian BattleHost, a Windrider Host AND a Guardian Stormhost which at the lowest will be over 1300pts.
A CAD can only have one LOW so that also not possible with the regular maximum of 2 source restriction.

Dont get me wrong, Eldars are ridiculously OP but not THAT much.

One windrider host + 5 wraith constructs. Definately legal.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

Read my post. I didn't say they were bad, you need to run some melta however. Nearly all grav isn't all grav and your not taking that many biker units. They need to be 5 strong to be troops. Your greatly exaggerating the match up if you think that your "common" grav biker list will crap over the list hawaiinmatt posted.

I even showed you the numbers, a grav biker unit needs to be within suicide range and only does 4 wounds before toe in cover and Fnp. Good luck bub.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

The craftworlds requires outside rules to limit them.

Your basic White Scars grav biker list would gak all over this.

On a side note, all the tears from this release might solve our water problem here in California!

Um...no. WS biker armies take grav sure but they can't take nothing but grav or they are useless against a plethora of other match ups. Further more, the average biker unit only shoots 9 grav shots once per game (combi grav SG) which is only 6 hits and 4 wounds to a WK before he gets cover OR FnP. You would need a seriously tailored list, a moron of an opponent, and guaranteed 1st turn to have a fighting chance. Hardly would it crap all over it.

What common tourney lists are grav guns NOT good against? Most lists ive played against took nearly all grav.

I Also played against a list at LVO that spammed an Imperial flyer which had a metric gak ton of AP3 shots.

There is Also other D weapons that get the job done.

Invisible censtar gaks on this too.

Read my post. I didn't say they were bad, you need to run some melta however. Nearly all grav isn't all grav and your not taking that many biker units. They need to be 5 strong to be troops. Your greatly exaggerating the match up if you think that your "common" grav biker list will crap over the list hawaiinmatt posted.

I even showed you the numbers, a grav biker unit needs to be within suicide range and only does 4 wounds before toe in cover and Fnp. Good luck bub.

You dont need melta actually, 2 6s from a grav gun and most vehicles in the game are toast. The only thing that nights have to show for their 55 point increase vs grav is FNP and that only goes so far.

I think people forget how much more effective grav cannons + amps are than regular grav guns. (Or they imagine that every squad is just like the 4 gun grav command squad.)

Yah honestly it took me a while to really understand that fact. It wasn't until I started using a fully powered centstar you really notice the difference. Each bike squad against a WK is 6 shots 4 hit 3(rounded) wound - WK takes 1 wound after cover/FNP multiply that by 6 for msu squads.

Where as a 5 man centstar with prescience/perfect timing splitting off 1 centurion 20 shots 18 hit, 15 wound, WK takes 12 wounds after fnp(high likelihood no cover)

Then 5 shots 4hit/wound second WK takes 3 wounds from it. Do you see the difference?

Edit-a lot of my math is rounded before anyone gets on me for not specifically writing out the exact averages.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The issue with a centstar solution is superfast Jetbikes tying it up in CC until a WK can deal with it, I'd imagine. Granted, the proposed list isn't ideal (imo). Suffers for the same reason QuadTide lists did with newfound Tau. WKs are really good, but they don't answer everything as efficiently as other units. Swap a Knight for a trio of Nightspinners. Enjoy three Str10 AP 6 pseudo-rending barrage large blasts. Or give a bit more muscle to your bike numbers.

It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

The thing is, an eldar player might have enough warp charges to stop Cent. Star from teleporting, or to counter its invis and shoot it to pieces.

20 bikes would pile 80 * 2/3 * 2/3 = about 36 wounds on it. Even saving at 2+, that's 6 unsaved wounds meaning the guy who was taking + 1 cent gone. (or 3 cents gone since the bikes should be mobile enough to affect what the closest model is). At that point, it becomes a lot less effective and the D weapons probably finish it.

The list presented has one Farseer which cannot counter the warp pool gravstar can put on the table.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have yet to see a list that can tackle:
Farseer
Warlock
3x3 jet bikes
1 Viper
3 Wraith Knights with wraithcannons
1 Wraith Knight with suncannon
1 Wraith knight with Glaive
(45 points left for gear)

1850 points, battle forged with a single detachment.

You can only have 1 LoW per the basic detachments, so this list is invalid. Even so, if you are taking 5 LoW choices, your opponent can take 5 too. I mean I don't see people screaming about taking 5 Cobras in an Eldar list, and those occupy the same force org slot and have a larger blast template.

The omission of the Wraithguard and D cannon is telling. No one seems afraid of those, they are all afraid of legions of Wraithknights.
So yes, L2P. If you can't handle wraithguard with cannons how could you handle a Centstar?

This list utilized the Eldar Warhost detatchment, which is legal. If they take one Windrider Host (which is listed), they can take up to 12 Wraithknights.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It would be foolish to charge jetbikes into CentStar - they are going to die the same turn so you're just wasting an obsec unit for no good reason. If they do somehow manage to survive CentStar will just Gate away next turn... And in truth they have to get close enough to charge which means they will most likely get decimated by grav fire before you ever even get to roll the dice to assault.

If the bikes are being shot by grav the WK is not - and so this is counted as a success, for it gets to close distance and charge. And if the CentStar is using dice for a gate, it's not using dice for Invisibility. Getting both powers off requires a hefty warp charge investment that is not assured. Now to even HAVE both Gate and Invisibility, guaranteed, we're talking Draigo + Cents + Tigurius (although a GK librarian has good odds as well). Of that collection of models, only Draigo truly threatens eldar bikes in CC (Dev Cents have no CC weapons to speak of). If the GK Libby is taken, generates invisibility, and has been upgraded with not-a-force-staff, then you've two threatening models. Yet even between them, I'd put them hard-pressed to wipe out 6-9 jetbikes (~160-240pt investment on the Eldar player's part, assuming ScatBikes). Not sufficiently to guarantee they flee, and if they wipe them during their turn the damage has been done.

But here's the kicker - the ~800pt star can be feasibly threatened by ~550pts (9 Scatbikes and a stock WK). All the bikes need to do is either eat fire for a turn, or not die for a turn. The burden of accomplishing something rests on the GK player - avoiding / killing the Scatbikes and avoiding / killing the WK, while eating 36'' Str6 fire (still puts a wound a turn through, even with invisibility up, assuming 9 Scatbikes). And if invisibility fails to go off even once, the whole thing falls apart. Eldar have the maneuverability to immediately punish.