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Post by: hotsauceman1
So, Yes, this is my school, I just didnt think it would make the news like this
Santa Cruz is a sleepy college town nestled at the base of a mountain range on California’s Central Coast. Recently, the city, famous for its beach boardwalk and redwood forests, experienced an act of civil disobedience by six of the university’s students.
This news might seem unremarkable for a college community known for its alternative lifestyle and liberal leanings. But the demonstration—held in early March in opposition to tuition hikes across the state—has led to some soul-searching for the University of California, Santa Cruz, which is coming under scrutiny for abandoning its tradition of political activism and the values it still uses to market itself. Despite lasting only a few hours, the protest has also dragged Santa Cruz into the center of national conversations about student debt, generational divides, and the efficacy of certain protest tactics designed to attract attention.
The six students are all California residents between the ages of 19 and 28 who decided to protest the tuition increases by blocking a major thoroughfare in the area. They now each face sentences of 30 days in jail for two misdemeanors, including for creating a public nuisance, though the local district attorney is reportedly striving to convince the judge to sentence them to more time. (They were initially charged as felons for criminal conspiracy, but those charges were later dropped.) Meanwhile, the university administration has suspended them each for a year and a half, during which time they will not have access to housing or healthcare.
UC Santa Cruz, or UCSC, is part of a ten-campus network that is widely considered to be a paragon of state university systems. Traditionally, California residents were able to attend the world-class institutions at a relatively affordable cost, but that has started to change in recent decades, as budget crises and a decrease in state support for higher education prompted sizable tuition hikes. Undergraduate tuition, which is uniform across the UC system, has more than doubled in the last decade to its current level of $12,192. It’s increased at a much higher rate than the national average, which in 2014 was $9,139. Officials point out that financial-aid programs for low- and middle-income families make tuition free for more than half of the schools’ in-state students—but as the recent controversy suggests, that’s not always enough.
UCSC doesn’t have the same recognition as UC institutions such as UCLA and Cal Berkeley; it’s endowment is much smaller, and its athletics are Division III. What it is known for, however, is its foundation in radical politics and its support of student activism. Founded in 1965, when Vietnam-era activism was growing across American campuses, Santa Cruz’s student body immediately took part in the nationwide movement. That character stuck even as UCSC grew and prospered in the ensuing decades. In 1991, the university hired Angela Davis, a luminary of the Civil Rights Movement and a close associate with members of the Black Panther Party, as a professor of feminist studies. Then, as environmental activism expanded across the country, UCSC students and faculty spearheaded efforts to stop development projects that would have compromised access to the cliffs on the city’s west side. Students and faculty ran for, and were elected to, local political offices. Their liberal politics sometimes clashed with the town’s conservative leaning.
Recently, on-campus activism has revolved around the UC tuition hikes, intensifying after Janet Napolitano, who currently serves as the system’s president, announced in November annual increases of 5 percent over the next five years. Students throughout California loudly opposed the measure, marshaling lobbyists, deploying delegations to a Board of Regents meeting, occupying buildings, and coordinating demonstrations across the state—all to little avail.
“I’ve been here for 35 years and I’ve never seen this level of punishment for civil disobedience that was nonviolent.”
For the six students the prospect of even more tuition hikes, especially when university administrators continue to garner high salaries, was intolerable.
So they came up with a plan.
At approximately 9 a.m. on March 3, the students gathered trash cans full of concrete and chains, put them in a U-Haul van, and headed to the Fishhook Bridge, which connects Route 1 and Highway 17, the main thoroughfare between Silicon Valley and Santa Cruz. By 9:30, the protesters managed to form a blockade on the bridge with their materials, shutting down traffic for three hours—and spurring response from 85 uniformed personnel and a helicopter. Officials used a sledgehammer to eventually extricate the protesters.
For much of the morning, commuters—many of whom were on their way to work—sat in traffic until the road was cleared at 2:30 p.m. At one point, a motorist was so angry he marched to the front of the gridlock and launched into a profanity-laced tirade that later made the circuit on social media.
By the end of that afternoon, an online petition calling for UCSC’s chancellor, George Blumenthal, to expel the protesters had garnered 3,000 signatures; as of Thursday, the number had grown to roughly 4,300. Blumenthal didn’t go as far to expel the six students, but he strongly condemned their actions, saying in a statement the day of the protest that the university “deeply [regretted] the impact these events had on our neighbors.” Emphasizing that the university’s students are “all members of this community,” he went on to say that school leaders would “exert” their responsibility and in the future discourage such means of protesting. “It's more than just an inconvenience,” he said. “Obstructing traffic jeopardizes public safety in ways that potentially could put people's lives at risk.” In the afternoon, as the students sat in jail waiting to be processed, the university then notified the students of interim suspensions; the suspension was eventually extended.
An increasing number of community members, faculty, and students, however, have begun pushing back, circulating letters of support and criticizing the university administration of caving to outside pressure by enacting excessively harsh punishments without following appropriate due-process protocol. Bettina Aptheker, a feminist-studies professor, characterized the university’s decision to suspend the students as “draconian and unnecessary.” “I’ve been here for 35 years and I’ve never seen this level of punishment for civil disobedience that was nonviolent,” she said. “The punishment is way out of proportion to the offensive.”
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Still, Lori Nixon, the only one of the six students who agreed to an interview, said she was bewildered by the initial reaction to the protest. “We set out to send a political message,” she said, noting that freeway shutdowns are a common tactic in other places. Indeed across the country, shutting down critical thoroughfares has recently figured as a popular protest tactic across the country. Following the St. Louis County Grand Jury’s announcement last November that Officer Darren Wilson would not be charged for shooting and killing Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, many of the demonstrations focused on shutting down highways. Marchers in St. Louis blocked traffic on Interstate-70, while in New York, demonstrations thwarted traffic on FDR Drive at the Williamsburg Bridge. In Boston protesters sat down on Massachusetts Avenue, and in Oakland protesters shut down the bridge at the I-580, a method protesters in that community have employed repeatedly, including just last month.
Those in favor of protest movements and who support the underlying social issues inspiring them have argued that the inconvenience of encountering annoying traffic jams is minor relative to the grave and systemic injustices to which the movements are attempting to bring attention.
A recent high-profile controversy involving a Twitter-rant by the actor Alec Baldwin revealed that divide: Baldwin complained about sitting in New York City traffic because of fast-food workers who were rallying to raise the minimum wage to $15, obstructing a large swath of midtown traffic. “There are ways to rally people without inconveniencing an entire city,” Baldwin wrote in a tweet. Then, the day after his post, he was blasted in The New York Times by the opinion writer Rachel L. Swarms: “The convenience factor! Now, that, Mr. Baldwin, is an issue that doesn’t get raised every day by your fellow supporters of a living wage. And it reminds me that this point rarely comes up when we consider the history of social movements in the United States: the sheer inconvenience that peaceful protests create for people who are not protesting.”
“There are ways to rally people without inconveniencing an entire city.”
Deborah Gould, a sociology professor at UCSC who studies social movements, said attitudes such as Baldwin’s are common. “People who participate in social movements are invariably disparaged by the media and by bystanders,” Gould said. “People don’t like to be inconvenienced, and I understand that, but in order for necessary social change to occur people are going to be inconvenienced.” With regard to the tuition hikes at the university, students often feel their grievances are routinely dismissed by the administration, she said, and believe that protests are their only recourse—a sentiment demonstrated by Nixon.
“In the face of very bleak futures, the economic crash of 2008, an economy that is not only limping along but doesn’t seem to really need these students,” Gould said, “we should not be surprised that these students have turned to more militant forms of protest.”
But in Santa Cruz, issues beside the cost of college are at play, too. The protest has underscored divides between the Baby Boomers, many of whom paid for college simply by getting summer jobs, and Millennials: a generation incurring tens of thousands of dollars of student debt, often just to have an opportunity in an already-crowded job market.
Among UC students who took out loans and graduated in 2013, the average debt was $20,500. They are also paying more for less, as the higher volumes of incoming freshman combined with cuts to faculty mean higher class counts and less individualized attention.
Eric John Nelson, the attorney representing Lori Nixon, said there is a deep irony in that the young people grew up dealing with financial crises ranging from the recession to widespread unemployment, largely because of poor policy choices made by the very generation that is now seeking to punish them for taking a stand on the repercussions of those policies.
Yet, one theme frequently evoked by those criticizing the students’ protest tactics is that the young people were spoiled and entitled brats unfamiliar with the “real world.”
Nixon, who was four classes away from graduating with a degree in sociology at the time of her suspension, said she is currently $25,000 in debt. A victim of the recession, she lost her job at the San Diego Unified School District in 2011 due to across-the-board employee cuts and had her house foreclosed as a result. “I know the struggle of working to pay for community college classes and trying to make ends meet,” she said. “I’ve struggled a lot to get where I am and now I’m in danger of losing my health care again. It’s really scary.”
Moreover, according to Nixon, some of her fellow demonstrators face difficult prospects, too, now that they’ve lost on-campus housing and have had to scramble for places to stay while going through an onslaught of administrative processes.
“The scary part of this whole thing is that the state can punish them twice,” Nelson said. The UC System is a state entity, meaning the students continue to face heavy penalties from two government agencies, according to Nelson.
Furthermore, student advocates claim the group’s due-process rights, as guaranteed by the university, were also violated, citing the university’s decision to suspend them within hours of their arrest. It’s in violation of university policy, they said, to take such action without a hearing.
“Our very founding in 1965 was a revolt against the educational status quo.”
“The suspensions were issued within hours of them being arrested,” Aptheker, the feminist-studies professor said. “These students are being disciplined for off-campus actions and you can’t suspend them until they have a hearing.”
The UCSC spokesman Scott Hernandez-Jason declined to comment on the specific case, citing university policy, but emphasized that “due process is at the heart of the student conduct process.” The university has the right to punish students for off-campus activities, he said, noting precedents in which students have been subject to disciplinary action for hosting parties that disturb neighborhoods. Still, concern is growing among the faculty and student body that establishing such a precedent is troubling and has the potential to be applied arbitrarily and unevenly. The university, for example, hasn’t taken any disciplinary action against a UCSC student who was recently ticketed after participating in a protest outside the U.S. Capitol.
All in all, the Santa Cruz community now appears ambivalent over the outcome, many criticizing the heavy punishment handed to the students but supportive of their mission. Ultimately, even if UCSC had taken steps to discipline the student, the university’s tradition of radical politics raises questions about its decision to punish students who participated in peaceful demonstration.
“The Original Authority on Questioning Authority,” reads a T-shirts for sale in UCSC’s gift shop, bearing a popular school slogan. Indeed, many argue the university has strayed far from its founding philosophy—a philosophy that it still uses to market itself to prospective students. And, at least according to its website, it’s one the school should continue to espouse today. “Our very founding in 1965 was a revolt against the educational status quo,” reads a passage on the university website. “Now, in an era of increased conformity and risk aversion, we invite you to join us in pursuit of a more just, healthy, and sustainable world.”
I just want people to know, 5 days later they staged a protest doing the same thing, but on school openings. This lead to a shutdown of the entire bus system for Santa Cruz because 10 routes run through UCSC, requiring many people to walk or be late to work. And what this article fails to mention is on person was airlifted out off Highway 17 for a heart attack, another went into labor(Very dangerous) and another lost her cat on the way to the vet.
The Sociology department(My department) is outrageds about this saying they are punishing students to harshly for actitivism. But I argue you represent your school like you do your company.
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Post by: marv335
You have to take responsibility for your actions.
These students, if they had been successful in their protest would have, no doubt. taken credit for the policy reversal on fees.
The also now have to take responsibility for the harm they caused during their protest.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Having driven through Santa Cruz a few times recently, all I can say is I am shocked that they shut down Highway 1 for 3 hours and anybody noticed. It once took us that long just to go 4 miles through Capitola, and we didn't even have any doe-eyed students to blame. Clearly they should have been protesting for more automobile infrastructure.
Santa Cruz is a nice little town. It reminds me of Arcata. It's adorable that they think their student protests are comparable to the big time UCs'.
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Post by: Frazzled
Taze them Bro!
As a former California student, protests on campus were a weekly event, like having lunch. Protest off campus and throw the  ing book at em.
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Post by: Relapse
Once more, stupidity on display. Did these students bother to think about the situation of people that might be penalized for getting to work late, graveyard workers trying to hurry home so that their spouse can leave the kids in their care so they can get to work, emergency workers trying to get to the scene of an accident, fire, or crime?
No real thought for anyone but themselves and getting their 15 minutes. I think there should be a fine levied for each hour of work lost by people in the traffic jam and charges related to anything more serious that held up emergency crews.
Definitely not green, either, if you think about the extra gas burned by cars held up in the jam.
A totally stupid stunt carried out by stupid people
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 Frazzled wrote:Taze them Bro!
As a former California student, protests on campus were a weekly event, like having lunch. Protest off campus and throw the ing book at em.
Well yeah, I cant go a week without some form of avtivism going on here.
Its usually about legalzing pot.
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Post by: Alpharius
Glad to see the future is such good hands!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well, Almost everyone I talked to disapproved of it
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
To this I say, "So? Who gives a feth? It's a damn cat!"
The school I'm currently at is facing the same exact issue of raising tuition... It is a complex issue, that started with mismanagement of money, and extremely short sighted policies.
By mismanagement of money, I am referring to the continual efforts by various state legislatures to cut funding to schools everywhere, and still expect the same results. A part of that includes many colleges using adjuct professors for ridiculously low wages (one interview I saw, the interviewee, an adjunct English professor, claimed to make 16k per year), who then in turn, don't give a feth about their classes and are very lazy in their teaching. These sort of short sighted "money saving" policies are leading many adjuncts to attempt to join teachers' unions, or form their own union.
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Post by: Sienisoturi
Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
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Post by: Relapse
 Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
And when they are taught that is how you get change from proff. I have yet to have Deborah gould, but I hear she is radical.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
It could also have easily been "and another lost her child on the way to the emergency room."
This reminds me of the protesters I see every now and then on my way home from Dallas to Fort Worth. Every couple of months they're on one of the bridges over the highway with their "honk to impeach Obama" or "remember Benghazi" banners or somesuch that backs up traffic for an extra 10-15 minutes. Making my already longassed commute longer does not encourage me to support you. Strange that they're not dedicated enough to their cause to be out there when it's raining, freezing cold, or burning hot. There was one time when they were protesting that whole thing about illegal immigrant/refugee children getting to stay in the country not long ago, and the next bridge down had some counterprotesters with a "what would Jesus do" banner. 
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It could also have easily been "and another lost her child on the way to the emergency room."
You notice that I did cut out the airlifted person, and the woman who went into labor?? Humans > Cats. Media reporting on this the, in my eyes a lazy plea for an emotional reaction, similar to the always inserted "an unarmed black man" right after Michael Brown's name (in his case, it may as well be a title, similar to Duke of York or something, it's said so often)
While I somewhat agree that the students may have gone slightly overboard in their protesting of the school by blocking a major traffic point, I actually think that their punishment is more overboard and unwarranted.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Im sure to that women, that cat doesnt matter in the slightest, not enough to take it to the vet.
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Post by: feeder
Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
UC is not a tyrannical government
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Depends on your point of view....
BUT, the problems that may, and probably will come with increased tuition will only become more exaggerated as time goes by.
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Post by: feeder
 hotsauceman1 wrote: feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
UC is not a tyrannical government
The point is, direct action is increasingly becoming the only way to get results. I imagine these kids were hoping to spark a wider protest.
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Post by: Relapse
feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
You do realize that it's the dumbest thing in the world to block a major traffic route for an impromptu protest, putting people's lives, property, and jobs at risk?
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Post by: feeder
Relapse wrote: feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
You do realize that it's the dumbest thing in the world to block a major traffic route for an impromptu protest, putting people's lives, property, and jobs at risk?
No. You just described what a major demonstration is. The difference here is only six kids participated, making it easy to identify and punish them.
How would you address this issue, if it was affecting you?
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Post by: daedalus
I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
 daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
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Post by: Relapse
feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: feeder wrote:Relapse wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:Funny how some people think that making everybody's life harder will get them support.
They have the same mentality and maturity level of a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
You do realize the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pushing the idea of an American meritocracy further and further into myth territory, right?
I mean, your country was founded on the back of direct action. How many people were inconvenienced then?
You do realize that it's the dumbest thing in the world to block a major traffic route for an impromptu protest, putting people's lives, property, and jobs at risk?
No. You just described what a major demonstration is. The difference here is only six kids participated, making it easy to identify and punish them.
How would you address this issue, if it was affecting you?
Did you even read the entire first post and how this group tied up travel and put people at risk? If not, I suggest you do. As for the issue they were having a tantrum about, I sure as hell wouldn't go about screwing up or risking the lives of people who have nothing to do with it.
Just so you realize the risk they put people to, here is an addition from Hotsauceman that wasn't reported but he knows about:
"I just want people to know, 5 days later they staged a protest doing the same thing, but on school openings. This lead to a shutdown of the entire bus system for Santa Cruz because 10 routes run through UCSC, requiring many people to walk or be late to work. And what this article fails to mention is on person was airlifted out off Highway 17 for a heart attack, another went into labor(Very dangerous) and another lost her cat on the way to the vet."
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Post by: daedalus
 AlmightyWalrus wrote: daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
Well, not on the scale of many other things. Even then, protesting by annoying motorists off the campus makes about as much sense as an Occupy Wall Street protest in northern Montana. It endears no one to your cause, it doesn't really bring in other people who feel the same pain, and it doesn't provide the people increasing those costs with an actual real life visual of the opposition of what they're trying to do.
Also, in the USA, I don't think that it DOES terribly impact anyone else. I mean, not really. You could argue the economic impact of having less educated people, maybe. Arguably, we could use a shortage of people with degrees.
Here, there's "student aid", but at least for me that was a drop in the bucket compared to what I was actually out for, and I'm no Rockefeller. I come from a lower-middle class family here.
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Post by: Relapse
AlmightyWalrus wrote: daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
Yeah, and those people who had serious medical conditions requiring immediate attention that couldn't get it without an airlift because they were trapped by the student caused traffic jam, blame the college and those dang tuition rates. Their next of kin would have understood they died for a good cause.
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Post by: Eadartri
I don't speak for Dakka Dakka. I offer only my opinion. I reviewed the article.
Considering that this is reported accurately, I am glad the criminal conspiracy charge was dropped. It is absurd.
The creation of a public nuisance charge seems light. The time sentenced seems appropriate (maybe light) considering where the nuisance was created: a major thoroughfare. If I understand correctly, a vehicle thoroughfare. (Maybe this is incorrect). The involved placed themselves at risk and perhaps endangered others. Now it could be that at the place where they were there were such low speeds this was unlikely. A higher speed zone means higher risk.
I am for peaceable assembly, including protest, and petitioning for the redress of grievances. On a sidewalk, anywhere public, not involving endangerment or other criminal activity, fine. First Amendment "zones" are after all totally absurd. Moving vehicles require certain consideration. My time as a first responder showed me what's involved with roads, accidents, hazards, and risk. Rights and negligence are two different things. Glad for the former, not the latter. This is my opinion based on what I read.
edit: oh, I forgot to mention. The combining of public universities with private enterprises seems to lend itself to tremendous abuse. Tuition increases could be one of those abuses.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
Yeah, and those people who had serious medical conditions requiring immediate attention that couldn't get it without an airlift because they were trapped by the student caused traffic jam, blame the college and those dang tuition rates. Their next of kin would have understood they died for a good cause.
Not to be completely callous... but if you have an issue that a ton of people should care about, you have to make them care about it.... Hypothetically speaking, if Mr. Heart Attack had actually died, someone would have used it politically to get others to fight for lower tuition costs.
This is basically the exact same way that MLK made people care about his issues. The term he used was Non-Violent Direct Action. To MLK, that action was to be taken to create a situation that was so uncomfortable for the "oppressor" (or whoever it is that's being fought against), that they MUST come to the table and negotiate in good faith.
In this situation, there seems to be a few steps missing, since only 6 people were present at this protest, which means one of a few things. One being that they could be protesting "too soon". Or that things aren't as bad for people as these protesters seem to think.
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Post by: Relapse
I would put forward the theory that people who lost jobs or family members to such an action would not be coming down on the side of the idiots that pull these stunts. I would further imagine that several would probably seek redress in one form or another.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
If people lose their jobs for being late to work one day because of a traffic issue they have no control over, we may need better laws protecting workers. As far as the people life flighted out, that is what those choppers are there for. No person died or was harmed. Just a lot of inconvenience.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Except that someone lost their cat. And had a heart attack.
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Post by: Relapse
 Dreadwinter wrote:If people lose their jobs for being late to work one day because of a traffic issue they have no control over, we may need better laws protecting workers. As far as the people life flighted out, that is what those choppers are there for. No person died or was harmed. Just a lot of inconvenience.
Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote:Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
Problem is, it's all a "What if" No one died (sorry cat, you're not a person still, and people should stop acting like you're such a big deal)
Does it suck that a guy was having a heart attack? Yes. Did he get the help he needed? Yes..... All good there.
But, if a person got fired because they were late due to as you put it "some spoiled idiots", I think there really are only two options there: 1. their employer is horrible, and no one probably wants to work for them anyway. 2. The person was really, really bad at their job and was on their last leg anyway.
Situation 2 is actually fairly easy to avoid: you show up at the right place, the right time, in the right "uniform" with the right attitude, and you'll have very little reason to be fired.
Now, keep in mind, I also think the protest these kids did was stupid and probably more damaging to their cause, however, if the article is true and they have done other protests/petitions with little to no acknowledgement, then I can see why they thought it was a "good" idea. If they were protesting merely because things hadn't changed, then again... they're idiots, because they are too young to know/realize that the "Government" generally moves very slowly.
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Post by: Bromsy
If this was three thousand students marching over the bridge to protest tuition hikes and stopping traffic with their sheer numbers; I could maybe see that being okay.
Six people getting upset and deciding to close down a major highway, well that's pretty dumb. Imagine if any time you could find five other people who were upset about something you got together and did something like this.
"Carol is a total B-Word. Let's go shut down a highway."
"This BLT is garbage. Let's go shut down a highway."
"I feel like Obama is working on a mind control ray to get a third term. Let's go shut down a highway."
Scale matters. If you can seriously only get six people on board with your plan, it is not an issue that needs that kind of action.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
 Bromsy wrote:
Scale matters. If you can seriously only get six people on board with your plan, it is not an issue that needs that kind of action.
Agreed.... as I think I said earlier, I think if you can only manage six people, you're either premature, or the issue isn't that serious.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:Relapse wrote:Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
Problem is, it's all a "What if" No one died (sorry cat, you're not a person still, and people should stop acting like you're such a big deal)
.
I bet to that women her cat mattered.
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Post by: Bullockist
She should go shut down a highway then, it's clearly the only valid response. I suggest the one on the original protesters route when they have exams on. 
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 Bullockist wrote:She should go shut down a highway then, it's clearly the only valid response. I suggest the one on the original protesters route when they have exams on.
They are not allowed on campus anymore, expelled from the US system. And one of them was a freshmen.
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Post by: Chief Tugboat
There is a time and place for showing support to whatever cause you are apart of. As a bay area resident myself, blocking freeways or especially bridges during the commute hours is a great way to piss off a bunch of people and do more harm then good to whichever "movement" is hot this week. Its happened to me and my girlfriend twice recently (takes about an hour to get home already, this kind of crap makes it 3+) and I'm sick of it. Its obsurd.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Relapse wrote: Dreadwinter wrote:If people lose their jobs for being late to work one day because of a traffic issue they have no control over, we may need better laws protecting workers. As far as the people life flighted out, that is what those choppers are there for. No person died or was harmed. Just a lot of inconvenience.
Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
Really? The helicopter not having a place to land is not an issue, considering that the two people in need of care were in a state where they could be transported to an area where the helicopter could land and made it there. But, the real what if here, what if Godzilla had stepped in and crushed everybody. We should be outraged about that! Wait, that didn't happen. Everybody is fine minus the cat? Baby born and the man with the heart attack is fine? (I have no clue actually, since I have no evidence that these events even happened)
Well how about that. We have things to avoid these sorts of medical situations. That is just crazy! Lets still be mad about the delay while future generations are being saddled with debt! THAT CAT DESERVED TO LIVE YOU DARN DIRTY APES!
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Post by: Bromsy
So we have a group that chooses to go to college, and willingly takes on debt based on that - choosing to inconvenience themselves with said debt.
At some arbitrary point, that self chosen inconvenience becomes so great and burdensome that they then get to go out and force inconvenience on other people to show how inconvenienced they are? Because screw everyone who isn't them and everyone else should pay attention to how sad their plight is or be damned.
I get it, college is of greater cost and less utility than in the past. That sucks. Not the fault of the people who are trying to commute across that bridge, most likely.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ensis Ferrae wrote:Relapse wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
Yeah, and those people who had serious medical conditions requiring immediate attention that couldn't get it without an airlift because they were trapped by the student caused traffic jam, blame the college and those dang tuition rates. Their next of kin would have understood they died for a good cause.
Not to be completely callous... but if you have an issue that a ton of people should care about, you have to make them care about it.... Hypothetically speaking, if Mr. Heart Attack had actually died, someone would have used it politically to get others to fight for lower tuition costs.
This is basically the exact same way that MLK made people care about his issues. The term he used was Non-Violent Direct Action. To MLK, that action was to be taken to create a situation that was so uncomfortable for the "oppressor" (or whoever it is that's being fought against), that they MUST come to the table and negotiate in good faith.
In this situation, there seems to be a few steps missing, since only 6 people were present at this protest, which means one of a few things. One being that they could be protesting "too soon". Or that things aren't as bad for people as these protesters seem to think.
On the flip side, the family of the person who had to be life flighted, the hospital/government entity paying for the lifeflight all should now sue the students for the costs and intentional infliction of phycial and emotional distress caused by that protest.
They want to play, they should pay. Automatically Appended Next Post: hotsauceman1 wrote: Bullockist wrote:She should go shut down a highway then, it's clearly the only valid response. I suggest the one on the original protesters route when they have exams on.
They are not allowed on campus anymore, expelled from the US system. And one of them was a freshmen.
Excellent. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dreadwinter wrote:Relapse wrote: Dreadwinter wrote:If people lose their jobs for being late to work one day because of a traffic issue they have no control over, we may need better laws protecting workers. As far as the people life flighted out, that is what those choppers are there for. No person died or was harmed. Just a lot of inconvenience.
Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
Really? The helicopter not having a place to land is not an issue, considering that the two people in need of care were in a state where they could be transported to an area where the helicopter could land and made it there. But, the real what if here, what if Godzilla had stepped in and crushed everybody. We should be outraged about that! Wait, that didn't happen. Everybody is fine minus the cat? Baby born and the man with the heart attack is fine? (I have no clue actually, since I have no evidence that these events even happened)
Well how about that. We have things to avoid these sorts of medical situations. That is just crazy! Lets still be mad about the delay while future generations are being saddled with debt! THAT CAT DESERVED TO LIVE YOU DARN DIRTY APES!
Wait, so six people blocking a freeway is no problem, and CAUSING A PERSON ALMOST TO DIE IS NO BIG DEAL. What fething planet do you live on?
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Post by: Relapse
Frazzled wrote: Ensis Ferrae wrote:Relapse wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: daedalus wrote:I remember when people were protesting about things slightly larger than what happened on their own 1 sq mile large bastion of sophism.
Yeah, increasing college costs in no way affect anyone else, it's all those darn selfish students!
Yeah, and those people who had serious medical conditions requiring immediate attention that couldn't get it without an airlift because they were trapped by the student caused traffic jam, blame the college and those dang tuition rates. Their next of kin would have understood they died for a good cause.
Not to be completely callous... but if you have an issue that a ton of people should care about, you have to make them care about it.... Hypothetically speaking, if Mr. Heart Attack had actually died, someone would have used it politically to get others to fight for lower tuition costs.
This is basically the exact same way that MLK made people care about his issues. The term he used was Non-Violent Direct Action. To MLK, that action was to be taken to create a situation that was so uncomfortable for the "oppressor" (or whoever it is that's being fought against), that they MUST come to the table and negotiate in good faith.
In this situation, there seems to be a few steps missing, since only 6 people were present at this protest, which means one of a few things. One being that they could be protesting "too soon". Or that things aren't as bad for people as these protesters seem to think.
On the flip side, the family of the person who had to be life flighted, the hospital/government entity paying for the lifeflight all should now sue the students for the costs and intentional infliction of phycial and emotional distress caused by that protest.
They want to play, they should pay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: Bullockist wrote:She should go shut down a highway then, it's clearly the only valid response. I suggest the one on the original protesters route when they have exams on.
They are not allowed on campus anymore, expelled from the US system. And one of them was a freshmen.
Excellent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadwinter wrote:Relapse wrote: Dreadwinter wrote:If people lose their jobs for being late to work one day because of a traffic issue they have no control over, we may need better laws protecting workers. As far as the people life flighted out, that is what those choppers are there for. No person died or was harmed. Just a lot of inconvenience.
Some people find themselves in that position .Clearly you are oblivious to the suffering of others. What if the helicopter had no place to land, or the woman that had gone into labor had died along with the baby, for the sake of some spoiled idiots who wanted 15 minutes of fame?
For that matter, how much additional damage did that man's heart suffer because he couldn't get out of that jam in a timely manner.?
Really? The helicopter not having a place to land is not an issue, considering that the two people in need of care were in a state where they could be transported to an area where the helicopter could land and made it there. But, the real what if here, what if Godzilla had stepped in and crushed everybody. We should be outraged about that! Wait, that didn't happen. Everybody is fine minus the cat? Baby born and the man with the heart attack is fine? (I have no clue actually, since I have no evidence that these events even happened)
Well how about that. We have things to avoid these sorts of medical situations. That is just crazy! Lets still be mad about the delay while future generations are being saddled with debt! THAT CAT DESERVED TO LIVE YOU DARN DIRTY APES!
Wait, so six people blocking a freeway is no problem, and CAUSING A PERSON ALMOST TO DIE IS NO BIG DEAL. What fething planet do you live on?
That's what I was wondering myself. It seems that since no one died, just came close, it's ok. Then on is brought the ridiculous Godzilla comparison. My guess is that the people who say it's no big deal have neither had to work a real job, didn't had a job where they had to work different shifts from their spouse in order to have someone with the kids, or just don't give a gak about other people since they blow off a couple of extremely possible instances where there could have been fatal consequences for people trapped in this. I can't fathom grown people that have to have how real life works and consequences of stupid actions explained to them in minute detail.
Perhaps if they were trapped with someone they actually cared about in a similar circumstance, they would be less inclined to sympathy with these tactics.
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Post by: Frazzled
Following this logic, if the people got out and threw them off the bridge, hey no big deal.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Frazzled wrote:
On the flip side, the family of the person who had to be life flighted, the hospital/government entity paying for the lifeflight all should now sue the students for the costs and intentional infliction of phycial and emotional distress caused by that protest.
They want to play, they should pay.
But... But, Obamacare!!!
Don't get me wrong here, there's really nothing right with the situation. Even though I agree that the pregnant lady and Mr. Heart Attack's families each have definite ground for a civil suit against these kids, I think it's a foolhardy errand simply because we all know that those kids won't have a way to pay for it at any point in their lives now.
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Post by: Frazzled
bs. They are going to a UC school. These are not poor kids.
If they were working class they would be going to a Cal State school.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Relapse wrote:
That's what I was wondering myself. It seems that since no one died, just came close, it's ok. Then on is brought the ridiculous Godzilla comparison. My guess is that the people who say it's no big deal have neither had to work a real job, didn't had a job where they had to work different shifts from their spouse in order to have someone with the kids, or just don't give a gak about other people since they blow off a couple of extremely possible instances where there could have been fatal consequences for people trapped in this. I can't fathom grown people that have to have how real life works and consequences of stupid actions explained to them in minute detail.
Perhaps if they were trapped with someone they actually cared about in a similar circumstance, they would be less inclined to sympathy with these tactics.
Well, since we have the things to handle these situations, such as life flight which was utilized to save these people, it is not a big deal. This is why these services are available. In case of emergencies when a person cannot reach a hospital. Also, a Life Flight is far faster than driving or using an ambulance to get yourself to the Hospital. But, I guess since I have worked in the medical field since I was 18 and I know how situations like these are handled and responded to I guess I do not consider it such a big deal. You know, since I have the expertise and knowledge about how these situations are handled.
So Relapse, please explain to me in minute detail how these people were in such great danger when we have the equipment to handle such a crisis.
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Post by: Frazzled
Horse gak.
They didn't have lifeflight on standby. He had to be waiting in an ambulance for some time. In heart situations, time is life.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Frazzled wrote:Horse gak.
They didn't have lifeflight on standby. He had to be waiting in an ambulance for some time. In heart situations, time is life.
Life Flight is ALWAYS on Standby. That is their job.
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Post by: Frazzled
Dreadwinter wrote: Frazzled wrote:Horse gak.
They didn't have lifeflight on standby. He had to be waiting in an ambulance for some time. In heart situations, time is life.
Life Flight is ALWAYS on Standby. That is their job.
Unless IT WAS CIRCLING OVERHEAD WAITING TO PICK HIM UP there was a substantial time delay. Again horse gak.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Frazzled wrote: Dreadwinter wrote: Frazzled wrote:Horse gak.
They didn't have lifeflight on standby. He had to be waiting in an ambulance for some time. In heart situations, time is life.
Life Flight is ALWAYS on Standby. That is their job.
Unless IT WAS CIRCLING OVERHEAD WAITING TO PICK HIM UP there was a substantial time delay. Again horse gak.
Okay, first off we really need a link to these events so we know what happened. Was he in an ambulance? Did the Heart Attack happen in his own car? If so, then yes Life Flight was the fastest possible scenario for him. There are very few situations where an ambulance is going to be faster than a helicopter.
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Post by: Haight
Frazzled wrote:Taze them Bro!
As a former California student, protests on campus were a weekly event, like having lunch. Protest off campus and throw the ing book at em.
Someone with youtube-fu greater than mine needs to link a movie to the PCU "We're not gonna protest" scene.
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:Relapse wrote:
That's what I was wondering myself. It seems that since no one died, just came close, it's ok. Then on is brought the ridiculous Godzilla comparison. My guess is that the people who say it's no big deal have neither had to work a real job, didn't had a job where they had to work different shifts from their spouse in order to have someone with the kids, or just don't give a gak about other people since they blow off a couple of extremely possible instances where there could have been fatal consequences for people trapped in this. I can't fathom grown people that have to have how real life works and consequences of stupid actions explained to them in minute detail.
Perhaps if they were trapped with someone they actually cared about in a similar circumstance, they would be less inclined to sympathy with these tactics.
Well, since we have the things to handle these situations, such as life flight which was utilized to save these people, it is not a big deal. This is why these services are available. In case of emergencies when a person cannot reach a hospital. Also, a Life Flight is far faster than driving or using an ambulance to get yourself to the Hospital. But, I guess since I have worked in the medical field since I was 18 and I know how situations like these are handled and responded to I guess I do not consider it such a big deal. You know, since I have the expertise and knowledge about how these situations are handled.
So Relapse, please explain to me in minute detail how these people were in such great danger when we have the equipment to handle such a crisis.
It appears your appeal to authority ploy doesn't mean a lot when you overlook incidents like this:
http://www.universalhub.com/2014/traffic-jam-caused-protests-kept-paramedics
Or perhaps an added 10 minutes to response time is acceptable to you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22883716
Do you really want me to go on, or shall I cite several more instances ?
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/01/fort_lee_woman_died_as_gwb_closures_delayed_medical_help.html
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/02/05/exclusive-23-minute-delay-for-paramedics-during-berkeley-protests-patient-later-died/
So, in detail, in a medical emergency, such as a heart attack, every second counts. When traffic is tied up as in the case of idiots blocking it, people can die. Shall I educate you further?
We aren't even talking about other emergency responders, like police of firetrucks getting stuck in these kinds of messes
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
These students have the right to peacefully assemble. They do not have the right to obstruct traffic.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
So wait, did you really read those links Relapse? One says that because of a protest, they had to call another ambulance and it all worked out great. It was praising the backup plan. The second link you sent is complaining about traffic congestion and the need for ambulance services to have a green light device. The third is the corruption scandal involving Chris Christie in NJ and the 4th was delayed because of a city ordinance requiring police escort that took way longer than it should have.
I am not sure how you think this helps your case.
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Post by: MWHistorian
Entitlement. They want something and don't want to pay for it.
I had to join the army to go to college.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
That.... didn't add anything that we didn't already know.
Though, if that age was correct on the "28 year old" protester, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she was hit with a stiffer, or additional "conspiracy" charge as some sort of ringleader.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
 MWHistorian wrote:Entitlement. They want something and don't want to pay for it.
I had to join the army to go to college.
You believe that tuition rates should continue to increase at their current rate?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Dreadwinter wrote: MWHistorian wrote:Entitlement. They want something and don't want to pay for it.
I had to join the army to go to college.
You believe that tuition rates should continue to increase at their current rate?
Personally, I think if you look at the rate increases, combined with where much of that money goes, and yeah... I think the situation is pretty bad and can't be maintained. But I'm also with MWHistorian in that I have GI Bill/Vocational Rehab paying for my school.
And it's somewhat sad, I'm currently at a community college and there are people complaining that they can barely, or cannot afford the CC rates, it's crazy because they aren't even at a 4 year school.
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Post by: Jihadin
MWHistorian wrote:Entitlement. They want something and don't want to pay for it.
I had to join the army to go to college.
You learn though of the 11 things that the 1st SGT says that drive everyone insane
Like
"It would behoove you...."
"Don't drink and drive and if you do drive don't drink"
"All this and a paycheck to"
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:So wait, did you really read those links Relapse? One says that because of a protest, they had to call another ambulance and it all worked out great. It was praising the backup plan. The second link you sent is complaining about traffic congestion and the need for ambulance services to have a green light device. The third is the corruption scandal involving Chris Christie in NJ and the 4th was delayed because of a city ordinance requiring police escort that took way longer than it should have.
I am not sure how you think this helps your case.
Clearly you didn't think about what you read. In the first story, How much time was added to the call when the first ambulance crew realized they couldn't make it and they had to call the second ambulance? If you are as knowledgable of medicine as you claim, then you will admit even a minute can make the difference between life and death
From the article you mention talking about the green light,
"Respondents reported traveling on city streets most often during emergency calls, and encountering traffic more often on interstates and national highways. Traffic congestion, on average, resulted in nearly 10min extra response time. Most agreed that the most effective in-vehicle technology for reducing response time was a pre-emptive green light device; however, very few reported availability of this device in their emergency vehicles. Public education regarding how to react to approaching emergency vehicles was stated as having the greatest potential impact on reducing emergency response time."
The point there is that respondents experienced 10 extra minutes added to their response time because of congestion. If everything was as easy as you imply, there would be no drag in that time.
This goes for the third. Traffic is snarled? Big deal, call in life flight. Wait a minute, life flight couldn't land anywhere near enough to help or it would have been called in!
The fourth, if you bothered to read, said the ordinence was in force because of protests choking the area and they didn't want the crew at risk, so they had to wait for police.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Jihadin wrote: MWHistorian wrote:Entitlement. They want something and don't want to pay for it.
I had to join the army to go to college.
You learn though of the 11 things that the 1st SGT says that drive everyone insane
Like
"It would behoove you...."
"Don't drink and drive and if you do drive don't drink"
"All this and a paycheck to"
And the big one, "Stand the F@&$ By"
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well it does make a good point. I mean, My mom told me how she never took loans out and how she just paid with her summer job.
And when textbooks can cost upwards of 500$ a quarter
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
hotsauceman1 wrote:Well it does make a good point. I mean, My mom told me how she never took loans out and how she just paid with her summer job.
And when textbooks can cost upwards of 500$ a quarter
Compared to when your mom went to college, I think she'd have to have one helluva job to make it in many of today's schools....
For instance, this is the quote, per year for a full time student at U. of Washington as an "instate" student: $27,112.... IF your costs stayed exactly the same over the 4 years of school, you're looking at $108,448... and I'd bet money that your costs will increase year to year (I have noticed that the more "Specialized" a class is, the more money the required text is)
At UW, if you were an "out of state" student, you're looking at 48k per year, and again, I really doubt the expenses would stay set at that rate year to year.
The problem that I personally have with many colleges, is that as tuition rates are going up, the people at the top are acting as if they are Walmart CEOs.... they are looking to cut costs at every opportunity, which leads to paying adjunct professors next to nothing to teach, paying them for "part time work" and expecting that person to perform on a level with a tenured full time, full benefits professor. If you're wondering where that obvious excess goes, at least at my school, it goes to the "CEO" types on the board, as well as the chancellor of the school.
I'm currently in a situation where, in one class I have an adjunct professor who is constantly late, but has the gall, when asked how he can improve (surprise surprise, everyone in class said, "SHOW UP ON TIME"), he responds with, "I'm not paid to be here early" Well, no gak Sherlock, but while I may not have much/any civilian work experience, but even I know that you need to show up early enough that you can start your "shift" on time. That means if you're being paid to teach a class from 9-950 each day, Monday-Friday, you had better be actually teaching or starting class AT 9, not walking through the door at 915.
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Post by: Relapse
Total lack of respect on that professor's part. Any options?
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Relapse wrote: Dreadwinter wrote:So wait, did you really read those links Relapse? One says that because of a protest, they had to call another ambulance and it all worked out great. It was praising the backup plan. The second link you sent is complaining about traffic congestion and the need for ambulance services to have a green light device. The third is the corruption scandal involving Chris Christie in NJ and the 4th was delayed because of a city ordinance requiring police escort that took way longer than it should have.
I am not sure how you think this helps your case.
Clearly you didn't think about what you read. In the first story, How much time was added to the call when the first ambulance crew realized they couldn't make it and they had to call the second ambulance? If you are as knowledgable of medicine as you claim, then you will admit even a minute can make the difference between life and death
From the article you mention talking about the green light,
"Respondents reported traveling on city streets most often during emergency calls, and encountering traffic more often on interstates and national highways. Traffic congestion, on average, resulted in nearly 10min extra response time. Most agreed that the most effective in-vehicle technology for reducing response time was a pre-emptive green light device; however, very few reported availability of this device in their emergency vehicles. Public education regarding how to react to approaching emergency vehicles was stated as having the greatest potential impact on reducing emergency response time."
The point there is that respondents experienced 10 extra minutes added to their response time because of congestion. If everything was as easy as you imply, there would be no drag in that time.
This goes for the third. Traffic is snarled? Big deal, call in life flight. Wait a minute, life flight couldn't land anywhere near enough to help or it would have been called in!
The fourth, if you bothered to read, said the ordinence was in force because of protests choking the area and they didn't want the crew at risk, so they had to wait for police.
Did you read in the first article where Firefighters and EMTs were already on the scene treating the patient? So, help got there very quickly.
As for the second article, it is talking about congestion at all times and they are asking for a device to make getting through lights faster. This has nothing to do with protests and everything to do with our ambulances being under equipped.
The fourth article is about a city ordinance that makes perfect sense. Because most cities have police escort ambulance services through traffic. The issue was with the response time of the Cops. Clearly they did not think it would be smart to keep one or two patrol cars held back in case they needed to assist paramedics with the ordinance. This was a planning issue. If people were being smart about it, when a protest began they would put a cop with every ambulance if that ambulance is not allowed to go to a scene without escort. That was poor planning. Not the protests fault.
What about the article about Chris Christie?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote:Total lack of respect on that professor's part. Any options?
About a third of the class have gone to the Dean of Humanities Dept. about his numerous issues (It's not just timeliness)
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Post by: Relapse
Ensis Ferrae wrote:Relapse wrote:Total lack of respect on that professor's part. Any options?
About a third of the class have gone to the Dean of Humanities Dept. about his numerous issues (It's not just timeliness)
Good luck to you on that. The professor sounds like a total dick that should long ago have been out on his butt.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote: Ensis Ferrae wrote:Relapse wrote:Total lack of respect on that professor's part. Any options?
About a third of the class have gone to the Dean of Humanities Dept. about his numerous issues (It's not just timeliness)
Good luck to you on that. The professor sounds like a total dick that should long ago have been out on his butt.
Yep... but I'm patient... I will wait for either the end of quarter "reviews" and let the Dean know where he stands, or I'll have collected all that info and go straight to her if there's no reviews.
For being a college level professor, he should know that "twilit" is a word... and in my particular case, when I used it in a piece of writing, I used it correctly.... so he apparently has some reading comprehension issues. His syllabus does not reflect in much of any way, what the actual class is on. Every class I've had before and around this one, the Syllabus outlines precisely how things work, when the big things are due, what things are worth (as in, quizzes are worth 10% of the overall grade, research paper is worth 25%, etc). It should, at the very least outline that there's an expectation that parts of the class are to be done in an online environment (I didn't sign up for an online class, and it wasn't mentioned in the syllabus, so when I am surprised when someone says, "ohh, this assignment was online"... you really have no ground to stand on when I'm asking where the assignment came from)
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
Political activism is perfectly fine as long as it doesn't hinder or disrupt the actives or ongoing of everyday life for the average citizen. However, if there was an emergency in my life, such as needing to get a family member or pet to seek medical attention and these "people" prevented me from being able to do that, I would do my best to find out who's responsible and put a bullet in their head.
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Post by: kronk
Political Activism is fine. Militant Hippyism is bad wrong. Badong, even.
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Post by: Frazzled
 kronk wrote:Political Activism is fine. Militant Hippyism is bad wrong. Badong, even.
But what if they're really cute hippies?
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Post by: Rosebuddy
Aetaos'rau'keres wrote:Political activism is perfectly fine as long as it doesn't hinder or disrupt the actives or ongoing of everyday life for the average citizen.
Protests that don't affect anything are useless. Of course they'll block something important because if they didn't they wouldn't have any leverage and would be ignored. This is just basic tactics.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Frazzled wrote: kronk wrote:Political Activism is fine. Militant Hippyism is bad wrong. Badong, even.
But what if they're really cute hippies?
There is a place for militant free love.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Aetaos'rau'keres wrote:Political activism is perfectly fine as long as it doesn't hinder or disrupt the actives or ongoing of everyday life for the average citizen. However, if there was an emergency in my life, such as needing to get a family member or pet to seek medical attention and these "people" prevented me from being able to do that, I would do my best to find out who's responsible and put a bullet in their head.
It is a good thing we have services to work around such situations so as to not provoke such a ridiculous and murderous reaction.
Helicopters, saving move lives than you know!
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Post by: Frazzled
Rosebuddy wrote:Aetaos'rau'keres wrote:Political activism is perfectly fine as long as it doesn't hinder or disrupt the actives or ongoing of everyday life for the average citizen.
Protests that don't affect anything are useless. Of course they'll block something important because if they didn't they wouldn't have any leverage and would be ignored. This is just basic tactics.
Then you won't mind if I run your ass over and throw the remains of my coffee on your twitching carcass because I don't want to ignore you. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmm...college dating. Hippy girls in VWs. Life was good.
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
Rosebuddy wrote:Aetaos'rau'keres wrote:Political activism is perfectly fine as long as it doesn't hinder or disrupt the actives or ongoing of everyday life for the average citizen.
Protests that don't affect anything are useless. Of course they'll block something important because if they didn't they wouldn't have any leverage and would be ignored. This is just basic tactics.
They could protest in such a way to make their message heard and recognized without disrupting the general public. They could have chained themselves to the doors of the Governors mansion, or to the state capitol. They could have blocked entry into university facilities. Doing something along those lines would still draw public attention, probably the good kind. The kind where people support your cause and recognize your grievances. Instead, they're facing criminal charges and there's a petition going around to have them expelled. Instead of creating positive support, they've only angered the general public, they've damaged their cause, reputations, and futures for their idiotic actions. Don't take that as me being unsympathetic to their cause. I honestly, do agree with part of their general message. That tuition is increasing at a rapid rate and it's becoming increasingly difficult to pay for it, especially with the job prospects that lie ahead. However disrupting major services to the general public is extremely selfish and uncalled for. What they did put peoples lives in danger by creating a disruption in the ability of emergency services to perform their jobs. It cost businesses money, it cost hospital patients their treatments for the day, and it cost a family their pets life. I hope they all get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, thrown out of college, and end up homeless. As far as I'm concerned they got handled with cotton mittens when they deserved the sledgehammer.
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Post by: Rosebuddy
Frazzled wrote:
Then you won't mind if I run your ass over and throw the remains of my coffee on your twitching carcass because I don't want to ignore you.
I'm not sure why you're fantasising about murdering me. All I've done is explain fundamental protest tactics, which remain true regardless of what the reason people cite for protesting is. I would expect everyone ranging from nazis to communists to have at least this level of understanding of power.
Aetaos'rau'keres wrote:
They could protest in such a way to make their message heard and recognized without disrupting the general public. They could have chained themselves to the doors of the Governors mansion, or to the state capitol. They could have blocked entry into university facilities. Doing something along those lines would still draw public attention, probably the good kind. The kind where people support your cause and recognize your grievances Instead they're facing criminal charges and are there's a petition going around to have them expelled. Instead of creating positive support, they're only angered the general public, they're damaged their cause, reputations, and futures for their idiotic actions. I hope they all get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, thrown out of college, and end up homeless.
None of your suggestions affect materially important things, though. The political apparatus can wait it out and blocking universities would only affect students, who don't particularly produce anything nor pay by the day. If you block roads, though, you affect actual businesses. You disrupt the economic workings of the city.
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Post by: kronk
It's not roads you block, it's entrances and exits to buildings, government, corporate, or otherwise. Also manufacturing plants, distribution centers, and so on.
Blocking actual roads blocks school buses, ambulances, and fire trucks, and is a gakky thing to do. Also dumb.
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Post by: Rosebuddy
It's seems quite efficient to block roads when you don't have the numbers necessary to block everything they lead to.
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Post by: Frazzled
Rosebuddy wrote: Frazzled wrote: Then you won't mind if I run your ass over and throw the remains of my coffee on your twitching carcass because I don't want to ignore you.
I'm not sure why you're fantasising about murdering me. All I've done is explain fundamental protest tactics, which remain true regardless of what the reason people cite for protesting is. I would expect everyone ranging from nazis to communists to have at least this level of understanding of power.
Then you're playing from the wrong book, the book where your head gets kicked in, because most protests aren't stupid enough to try to block roads. Automatically Appended Next Post: Rosebuddy wrote:It's seems quite efficient to block roads when you don't have the numbers necessary to block everything they lead to.
Not efficient if you're in the hospital. Please cite instances of successful protests blocking streets in the US that achieved something.
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
Rosebuddy wrote:
None of your suggestions affect materially important things, though. The political apparatus can wait it out and blocking universities would only affect students, who don't particularly produce anything nor pay by the day. If you block roads, though, you affect actual businesses. You disrupt the economic workings of the city.
Blocking traffic doesn't actually have any noticeable affect on anything that relates to their grievances either. All it serves it to hinder emergency services and the daily actives of the average citizen who probably doesn't care about tuition hikes. In other words, they're taking out their anger and frustrations on the wrong people. It isn't the joe-commuter going to work in the morning that's causing tuition to increase drastically each year. It's the policies of the university. It's the pay for professors, it's tenure, and pensions, and sports facilities, and so-on. They want to make a change? Find the biggest college athletic complex in the state and when the time comes for the biggest sports event of the year, block entry into the facility. Hold student sit-ins on campus facilities. Lock professors out of their classrooms. Block entry for administrative staff. That would cause a disruption at the actual facility where the problem lies. Blocking traffic isn't going to accomplish anything other than to piss people off and have them turn against you before you've even won them to your side. Part of me wonders if people even go to college to actually learn anymore. It seems like people are more concerned with "social" activism than they are an education. No wonder these people can't find jobs. They opt for social sciences and refuse to actually learn any skills that can lead them to be productive members of society. A lot of these people would be better going straight to work after finishing high-school. The problems many face are of their own doing.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Frazzled wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote:It's seems quite efficient to block roads when you don't have the numbers necessary to block everything they lead to.
Not efficient if you're in the hospital. Please cite instances of successful protests blocking streets in the US that achieved something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Jobs_and_Freedom
Hardly the same, I know, but still.
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
Derpleted.
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Post by: Frazzled
Not seeing where anything was being blocked or in any way relevant to anything in this thread.
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
Frazzled wrote:
Not seeing where anything was being blocked or in any way relevant to anything in this thread.
The city was also well prepared for the march, had additional police forces and national guard forces to assist with the event as well.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Pretty sure both Tahrir Square and Maidan were blocked as part of the Arab Spring and Ukrainian episode, respectively.
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Post by: Frazzled
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Pretty sure both Tahrir Square and Maidan were blocked as part of the Arab Spring and Ukrainian episode, respectively.
Mmm ISIL and shirtless Putin.
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Post by: Supertony51
 marv335 wrote:You have to take responsibility for your actions.
These students, if they had been successful in their protest would have, no doubt. taken credit for the policy reversal on fees.
The also now have to take responsibility for the harm they caused during their protest.
This pretty much.
I believe that if the protest was indeed about the topic at hand, they could have protested on campus, and blocked off offices and what not. I'm not sure what they were hoping to accomplish by blocking traffic, other than to piss people off.
PROTIP: You don't win support to your cause by pissing off the people you're trying to persuade.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Yeah, I agree. But the problem is we are taught here a narrative about how the only effective protest disrupts the status quo, ala the American Revolution, not realizing the revolution was about giving us the tools so we would take have to do protests like this.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
kronk wrote:It's not roads you block, it's entrances and exits to buildings, government, corporate, or otherwise. Also manufacturing plants, distribution centers, and so on.
Blocking actual roads blocks school buses, ambulances, and fire trucks, and is a gakky thing to do. Also dumb.
Well, blocking roads with 6 people is dumb. I think most of us agree that MLK was pretty effective in his groups' blocking of roads when they were marching.... but then, I think most people will agree or think Civil Rights > Tuition Rates at a perceived "affluent" school.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well, tuition is an important issue right now.
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Post by: Relapse
Edited
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Post by: Aetaos'rau'keres
It is important, but it's in no manner whatsoever even a fraction as important as the civil rights movement. It's also not important enough to risk the lives of even one person over. And as we have leaned, this little stunt did in fact put people's health in danger. It also cost one family a pet, and I personally hope the sue the students for every dollar they will possibly ever be able to earn.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well getting expelled from the UC system, it might not be a lot lol.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
I agree with you on that... and if perhaps these 6 "idiots" had gotten 1,000 or even 10,000 people to march with them to close off a major roadway, things might be a bit different.... That's kind of what I was getting at.
As I said earlier, the CC that I'm at currently is a State school and has announced rolling tuition increases starting with Fall 2015. I have a few friends who are attending out of pocket, or with some FAFSA help and are anywhere from "concerned" to "how the feth can I afford to continue school" on the announced increases.
I know that, in the past I have been fairly right leaning on these boards, but right now, if Presidential elections were right this minute, I'd be voting for Bernie, because he's at least saying the "right" things about education and the economy in my mind. Whether he got any or some of that stuff "done" during a term is a whole other thing of course.
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Post by: pancakeonions
Go banana slugs! (Cowell '92 - I played my first minis game, a WWII scenario, in some classroom on the Cowell campus. Hope there are still plenty o' nerds there to carry on)
Seems there are still some activists. That's good to hear. The tuition hikes and massive debt incurred by students these days is bewildering - a college degree is pretty damn important, but made less so if it comes along with 10s of thousands of dollars of debt. How we could get to this point is beyond me.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Pfft, Porter for LIFE!!!!
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Post by: pancakeonions
That was my sister's college, so I'm partial to Porterians.
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Post by: marv335
Not that important if only 6 people turned up for the protest.....
Also, bill the protesters for the difference in cost between the ambulance ride and the helicopter medivac.
I know a medivac can cost $25,000. ambulance can cost between $250 and $2200 (depending on distance)
That's a lot of money that insurance companies often won't pay out for.
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Post by: Frazzled
marv335 wrote:
Not that important if only 6 people turned up for the protest.....
Also, bill the protesters for the difference in cost between the ambulance ride and the helicopter medivac.
I know a medivac can cost $25,000. ambulance can cost between $250 and $2200 (depending on distance)
That's a lot of money that insurance companies often won't pay out for.
Forget billing. Sue them for it. Sue them for the police and other services used. Have the families of the anyone inconvienced sue them for INTENTIONAL infliction of emotional distress.
Send 'em to the poorhouse boys.
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Post by: marv335
Think you're broke with college loans?
Now you have college loans and multi million dollar lawsuit settlements.
Let's hope McDonalds gets that wage hike, you're gonna need it....
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Post by: Rosebuddy
marv335 wrote:Think you're broke with college loans?
Now you have college loans and multi million dollar lawsuit settlements.
Let's hope McDonalds gets that wage hike, you're gonna need it....
It seems pointless to sue people for money that they don't have. I mean... if I'm bringing someone into court with the aim of compelling them to give me large amounts of money then I would be very stupid if I did it to someone I knew for sure wouldn't be able to actually do that.
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Post by: kronk
Rosebuddy wrote: marv335 wrote:Think you're broke with college loans? Now you have college loans and multi million dollar lawsuit settlements. Let's hope McDonalds gets that wage hike, you're gonna need it....
It seems pointless to sue people for money that they don't have. I mean... if I'm bringing someone into court with the aim of compelling them to give me large amounts of money then I would be very stupid if I did it to someone I knew for sure wouldn't be able to actually do that.
You don't always do it in the hopes of getting money. You can also do it to cause the other person to declare bankruptcy, go out of business, leave town, etc. Furthermore, just because they're poor right now doesn't mean you can't garnish their wages for the rest of their life.
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Post by: pancakeonions
They should be suing the damn government for underfunding higher education. Or the Regents, who keep upping tuition. Why these small fries? Who gives two gaks about 'em? If our government would pull their collective heads out of their collective arses and start thinking about the future, they'd realize in short order how bad things have gotten.
Now get off my lawn.
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Post by: Frazzled
Rosebuddy wrote: marv335 wrote:Think you're broke with college loans?
Now you have college loans and multi million dollar lawsuit settlements.
Let's hope McDonalds gets that wage hike, you're gonna need it....
It seems pointless to sue people for money that they don't have. I mean... if I'm bringing someone into court with the aim of compelling them to give me large amounts of money then I would be very stupid if I did it to someone I knew for sure wouldn't be able to actually do that.
You sue them so that you can rightfully take everything they're gonna have. . . (internetz bingo! Who said it?)
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Post by: hotsauceman1
pancakeonions wrote:They should be suing the damn government for underfunding higher education. Or the Regents, who keep upping tuition. Why these small fries? Who gives two gaks about 'em? If our government would pull their collective heads out of their collective arses and start thinking about the future, they'd realize in short order how bad things have gotten.
Now get off my lawn.
Actually, they just repealed the tuition hike.
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Post by: daedalus
kronk wrote:Rosebuddy wrote: marv335 wrote:Think you're broke with college loans?
Now you have college loans and multi million dollar lawsuit settlements.
Let's hope McDonalds gets that wage hike, you're gonna need it....
It seems pointless to sue people for money that they don't have. I mean... if I'm bringing someone into court with the aim of compelling them to give me large amounts of money then I would be very stupid if I did it to someone I knew for sure wouldn't be able to actually do that.
You don't always do it in the hopes of getting money. You can also do it to cause the other person to declare bankruptcy, go out of business, leave town, etc.
Furthermore, just because they're poor right now doesn't mean you can't garnish their wages for the rest of their life.
Yeah, not everything is about money. Sometimes it's about ruining someone's life for the foreseeable future.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Let's put 6 people in debt for the rest of their lives for inconveniencing a group of people and causing them to use emergency services made for such situations. Even though they were attempting to get attention on a subject that puts the future of the country at risk.
You can sue anybody over here. That's the American Dream!
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:Let's put 6 people in debt for the rest of their lives for inconveniencing a group of people and causing them to use emergency services made for such situations. Even though they were attempting to get attention on a subject that puts the future of the country at risk.
You can sue anybody over here. That's the American Dream!
Guess they may pay the price of being idiots and putting people at risk.
Once again, another instance of snarled traffic delaying emergency crews:
http://abc7news.com/traffic/bay-area-traffic-creates-problems-for-emergency-response-teams/478834/
Still clinging to your fantasy that emergency vehicles are in no way delayed by traffic? Where was the miracle method you claim exists for these Firefighters?
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Post by: Dreadwinter
When did I claim that?
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Post by: Relapse
When you claimed throughout this thread that we have things to deal with these situations. It was implied by you that there would be no delays because of the wonders you are privy to that no one I know who works medicine is heard about. If you are now saying otherwise, you are also saying you are cool with protestor created traffic snarls delaying rescue workers, which leads me to question your claim to be a medical worker.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Relapse wrote:
When you claimed throughout this thread that we have things to deal with these situations. It was implied by you that there would be no delays because of the wonders you are privy to that no one I know who works medicine is heard about. If you are now saying otherwise, you are also saying you are cool with protestor created traffic snarls delaying rescue workers, which leads me to question your claim to be a medical worker.
There is your problem right there. You are trying to make it sound like I was arguing something I wasn't. Of course traffic effects rescue workers. Traffic effects everything. In fact, that is what this whole thread is about. However, everything in the OPs article was fine because of the many different ways we have to respond to a medical emergency, mainly about the use of life flight.
Then you start popping in with fire trucks and saying "HA I GOT YOU" when that is not even remotely what I said.
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:Relapse wrote:
When you claimed throughout this thread that we have things to deal with these situations. It was implied by you that there would be no delays because of the wonders you are privy to that no one I know who works medicine is heard about. If you are now saying otherwise, you are also saying you are cool with protestor created traffic snarls delaying rescue workers, which leads me to question your claim to be a medical worker.
There is your problem right there. You are trying to make it sound like I was arguing something I wasn't. Of course traffic effects rescue workers. Traffic effects everything. In fact, that is what this whole thread is about. However, everything in the OPs article was fine because of the many different ways we have to respond to a medical emergency, mainly about the use of life flight.
Then you start popping in with fire trucks and saying "HA I GOT YOU" when that is not even remotely what I said.
I mentioned police and fire vehicles earlier and you kept saying traffic jams can be dealt with. Now it seems you are saying it's perfectly fine for rescue vehicles to be delayed because of protestors blocking traffic. How much medicine do you really know when you make such statements?
You do realize in any kind of an emergency situation, such that would require the need for police, firefighters, or medical attention, seconds can count, right? At least that's what anyone I know in any of those professions say when they talk about their work.
http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/what-slows-down-emergency-responders-when-every-second-counts-n194126
Are you that uncaring or ill versed in the medical profession, which you claim you were in since age 18, that you have this opinion?
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Post by: kronk
Dreadwinter wrote:Let's put 6 people in debt for the rest of their lives for inconveniencing a group of people and causing them to use emergency services made for such situations. Even though they were attempting to get attention on a subject that puts the future of the country at risk. You can sue anybody over here. That's the American Dream!
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Don't block the roads if you can't...uh...pay the fines. that doesn't work. Don't block the streets if you can't pay the fees? That's rather weak. Don't block the avenues if you can't pay the dues. Still lame. Don't put your head where the sun don't shine if you can't pay the fething fine. That's it. We'll go with that.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Okay Relapse, not sure where you are getting this. This whole topic is about medical response. Not fire or police, like you keep trying to stiff arm in. So please, stop. I understand the issue with traffic. I believe first responders should have the green light button mentioned in your article. But, you are trying to make this situation in to something it is not and then make an example of people for it. This terrible situation, which I have yet to see an article about or anything other than hearsay, was avoided by medical services we have access to.
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:Okay Relapse, not sure where you are getting this. This whole topic is about medical response. Not fire or police, like you keep trying to stiff arm in. So please, stop. I understand the issue with traffic. I believe first responders should have the green light button mentioned in your article. But, you are trying to make this situation in to something it is not and then make an example of people for it. This terrible situation, which I have yet to see an article about or anything other than hearsay, was avoided by medical services we have access to.
You seem confused on this, and you statement here proves it even more. From my first comment on page 1,
"Once more, stupidity on display. Did these students bother to think about the situation of people that might be penalized for getting to work late, graveyard workers trying to hurry home so that their spouse can leave the kids in their care so they can get to work, emergency workers trying to get to the scene of an accident, fire, or crime? "
Where in there am I talking only about medical emergencies? Are you of the belief that firefighters and police trying to get to the scene of an emergency are unhindered by demonstrations blocking traffic? The situation is emergency responders can be blocked by these things and now you're trying to deflect away from your original assertions that they don't get delayed, to, it doesn't matter if they get delayed.
You're kind of all over the board on this one, and I have to ask just what relation to the medical field you have, because you are the first one in any run of the profession that says it doesn't matter if a rescue is delayed.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Were there police and fire involved in this situation or are we back to what ifs?
I also never said it doesn't matter if a rescue is delayed. You are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make your argument sound better. What I said was we have things to deal with these medical emergencies and they were properly used and everything worked out fine because of it. You were acting like the protestors killed somebody. Why are you making this more than it is?
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Post by: Relapse
Dreadwinter wrote:Were there police and fire involved in this situation or are we back to what ifs?
I also never said it doesn't matter if a rescue is delayed. You are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make your argument sound better. What I said was we have things to deal with these medical emergencies and they were properly used and everything worked out fine because of it. You were acting like the protestors killed somebody. Why are you making this more than it is?
Because it could have gone the other way and you don't seem to care, if your statements lauding the protestors and the results of their action are anything to go by. Answer my question, please. Just what have you to do with medicine since you laid the claim early on that you have been into this kind of thing since you were 18. I'm curious to see what branch of the medical profession doesn't mind protestors blocking emergency crews when someone is at risk.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
I worked on a Medsurg unit in a Hospital, I've also worked in an ER and ICU in the same hospital. I was the designated runner on the code team almost every day. Currently I work rehabilitating the mentally ill back in to the community by teaching them coping skills as well as life skills. I've posted about it in another thread.
If this had gone the other way it would be an issue. But it did not. The protestors blocked the road, but luckily we have ways around that. Like Life Flight, which can go almost anywhere.
But again, this is all hearsay and nothing official about the incident has been posted. I'm not sure how to simplify this any more for you.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote: I'm curious to see what branch of the medical profession doesn't mind protestors blocking emergency crews when someone is at risk.
Sorry mate, but I really have to take his side.... no where in ANY of his posts in this thread suggested that he's cool with the protesters being stupid.
What he HAS said, in this thread, is that THIS situation turned out fine, because contingency plans that were emplaced worked as they were designed to. Further that YOUR "What If' scenarios were bordering on insane, because they had nothing to do with what actually happened, and yet you are trying to paint him out to be some crazy villain-esque bad guy about the whole thing.
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Post by: Relapse
Actually, he did take the protestor's side, and how is putting forward the possibility that this protest could have prevented someone from getting help they needed in a timely fashion, causing them to die, bordering on insane?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Relapse wrote: and how is putting forward the possibility that this protest could have prevented someone from getting help they needed in a timely fashion, causing them to die, bordering on insane?
Because no one did.
Most of us have acknowledged that there was a potential that nothing "worse" happened in the OP than what did, and most of us have acknowledged that this whole thread would look different IF something had happened. Beyond that though, most of us have dropped the issue.
Maybe I'm reading too much into what you've been writing but from where I'm sitting, you seem to have taken a very soap boxy position and will not let non-issues lie.
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Post by: Piston Honda
No opinion on the article but I miss the board walk and that awesome wooden roller coaster the big dipper.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
I agree with the protestors on their cause and that they should not be punished for What If scenarios. Not how they went about doing the protest.
Relapse, are you reading my posts at all?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
Dreadwinter wrote:I agree with the protestors on their cause and that they should not be punished for What If scenarios. Not how they went about doing the protest.
Relapse, are you reading my posts at all?
So, do you think they should be punished for the chaining/concreting themselves to a road as such, or do you think the school should also take action in it's punishment (ie, expulsion)
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Post by: Dreadwinter
I don't think the college should be involved in the punishment.
They did, however cause a lot of issues for people and I think there should be consequences. Community service or something, throwing the book at poor students protesting tuition hikes helps nobody.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Dreadwinter wrote:I don't think the college should be involved in the punishment.
They did, however cause a lot of issues for people and I think there should be consequences. Community service or something, throwing the book at poor students protesting tuition hikes helps nobody.
May I ask why, if you do something and you explicitly say you are part of a company or organization, you are representing that entity.
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Post by: Dreadwinter
Just because you go to school or work somewhere does not mean you represent them at all times. UCSC should just say that they do not condone this form of reckless protest and distance themselves. Maybe have some of the faculty speak to them about the dangers of blocking a bridge to make sure these types of issues do not arise in the future.
Let the courts handle the punishments. That's why they are there.
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