Our local store had to cancel our months long anticipated Tournament because the Eldar dex got dropped and people started backing out of the tournament until we had less then 8 players (3 eldar). So instead of playing a tourny this weekend I just went and had fun with some people.....And then TFG showed up with his Eldar......He brought his Tournament list of WKs and Bikes and some other Eldar trickery, but that wasn't the worst of it. The entire day this guy was trying to con people into playing not just his tourny list (nobody accepted) but his other list he brought "for fun" which was a 1850 list featuring not 1 but 2! Revenant Titans and something else I can't remember....but who would when theirs two titans on the table.

So needless to say this specific player eventually gave up and went home without playing a single game with anyone....but seriously, in what world did he think it would be fun for anyone to fight an Eldar Tourny list or 2 Titans without at least getting the chance to field an army capable of matching that? (most of us just brought whatever because....balance)

I know not every Eldar player is a jerk, I have a great Eldar player who specifically said he was going to finally start fielding his regular Eldar forces because they have a chance now. But at some point a person has to realize that nobody likes them because they are TFG, Either that or I am over thinking this a bit much :-P

Maybe a little. Would you have felt it as worthy of discussion had his army been another, such as Nids?
It's a shame he didn't think to forewarn anyone, but perhaps this mistake is skewed slightly by the atmosphere surrounding Eldar right now?

There is a subtle difference between bringing a competitive list but still being a good sport and TFG.

Good sports will still have fun and cut back their list if they want to get a game in. TFG's are stubborn and refuse to do so, they have to WAAC.

There is also a correlation between TFG's and bandwagoning, sore losers, bad winners and other, less than ideal behaviours that are the reasons behind not getting games.

If(and this is a big if) the guy really did claim that he was going to start fielding his "regular Eldar because they have a chance now", I don't know where he was all last book...because Eldar had more than a chance.

If he was being unwilling to alter his lists for a game, then yeah, he's TFG. If he just wanted some games with his new units and book, then I don't he's TFG, I think people just don't want to fight newdar.

That being said, having fought Eldar last night, I refuse to play anyone who plays with a single Wraithknight or Titan.

he flat out refused to play any games unless he could bring those two lists. I believe a Tau player even offered to play against one of his Titans but not 2. :-P

Hears about local Tournament going on, googles good tournament lists. Finds they all point to Eldar. Starts Eldar.

Spends lots of money, time and effort on building / painting new Eldar, based off of what the internet has guided him to be known as a ''tournament'' army. Brings new army in ready for the tournament, finds it has been canceled. ''Hmmmpff, that's disappointing, guess i'll just ask around for a game''. Get's rejected hard, being singled out as a TFG, for bringing a Tournament army when for a long while a Tournament Army has been what he has been building. Goes home and cries.

Someone isn't a TFG for bringing a competitive army, to say so is just single-mindedness. People want different things from the game, and if you don't want to give him a competitive game vs his optermized list, don't. But you shouldn't pop onto the internet and complain about a guy who used his own time and money to buy models, then trying to find someone to play with him.

"No thanks, I'm not into Apocalypse games. Do you have an alternative list?"

"I brought a pretty weak, fluffy list. Is it possible for you to tone down your list a little so we can both have a fun game?"

"Sure, I'll play your silly Titan-list, but not unless I can alter my list and use some proxies. Ok?"

And as for your local TO:

"Gee, because of this new Eldar kerfuffle, people seem to be dropping out of my event to such an extent that I'll have to cancel it. Maybe I should introduce some sort of comp?"


It's not that hard. Pretend like you're an adult, communicate your wishes for 40k gaming, and be prepared to compromise (which is a thing that goes both ways) if there aren't enough people who want the same things you want. That way you get to actually play in your local tournaments instead of going on the internet and moaning about it.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Hears about local Tournament going on, googles good tournament lists. Finds they all point to Eldar. Starts Eldar.

Spends lots of money, time and effort on building / painting new Eldar, based off of what the internet has guided him to be known as a ''tournament'' army. Brings new army in ready for the tournament, finds it has been canceled. ''Hmmmpff, that's disappointing, guess i'll just ask around for a game''. Get's rejected hard, being singled out as a TFG, for bringing a Tournament army when for a long while a Tournament Army has been what he has been building. Goes home and cries.

Someone isn't a TFG for bringing a competitive army, to say so is just single-mindedness. People want different things from the game, and if you don't want to give him a competitive game vs his optermized list, don't. But you shouldn't pop onto the internet and complain about a guy who used his own time and money to buy models, then trying to find someone to play with him.

Thats a nice fantasy story. However, this story went more along the lines of

Guy spends years building his Eldar army up, this guy starts building his tourny list, gets informed tournament was cancelled because people didn't want to play against Eldar Cheese and instead of bringing a regular list he shows up with Forge World Titans and a list of cheese. When asked if he would play a slightly less competitive list he freaks out and refuses, when asked to take only 1 Forgeworld titan instead of 2 in the one game a person said they would play against him, he freaks out and packs up his stuff and goes home.

So to say im single minded is a bit skewed. He wanted to be a TFG WAAC Player and people didn't want to play like that, so instead of altering his armies he chose to pack of his toys and go home for the day.

Or another way to look at it, he wanted to play a Tournament but the rest of the players backed out to cry about how OP the new Eldar codex is and on the day of the Tournament he brought the list he wanted to use in the Tournament and the rest of you wanted to play casually. How dare he bring his Tournament list on the day of the Tournament and want to play it.

Is it overpowered, yes. Should he have toned it down when other players asked, yes, but you can't go and call someone TFG when it was a Tournament planned for months and on that day he brought a Tournament list. I'd be pissed if I had prepped a list specifically for an event and everyone complained about a new codex so much that it was cancelled.

Should have agreed to play, but you get to use his army and vice versa. If he was a good sportsman, he would probably bite.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Or another way to look at it, he wanted to play a Tournament but the rest of the players backed out to cry about how OP the new Eldar codex is and on the day of the Tournament he brought the list he wanted to use in the Tournament and the rest of you wanted to play casually. How dare he bring his Tournament list on the day of the Tournament and want to play it.

Is it overpowered, yes. Should he have toned it down when other players asked, yes, but you can't go and call someone TFG when it was a Tournament planned for months and on that day he brought a Tournament list. I'd be pissed if I had prepped a list specifically for an event and everyone complained about a new codex so much that it was cancelled.

if nobody wants to play competitively like that and he refuses to tone down his list is it our fault or his? I for one had no intention to waste 2-3 hours playing a single game against him that would inevitably end with me losing and having done very little damage to his army.

Sorry dude, im not about WAAC, I play orks and while I do want my orks to be more competitive, with our current codex I know that against most players I can have an enjoyable time and have it be relatively close, so long as they don't bring tourny lists. he refused to play a friendly game and was shunned because of his attitude.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Or another way to look at it, he wanted to play a Tournament but the rest of the players backed out to cry about how OP the new Eldar codex is and on the day of the Tournament he brought the list he wanted to use in the Tournament and the rest of you wanted to play casually. How dare he bring his Tournament list on the day of the Tournament and want to play it.

Is it overpowered, yes. Should he have toned it down when other players asked, yes, but you can't go and call someone TFG when it was a Tournament planned for months and on that day he brought a Tournament list. I'd be pissed if I had prepped a list specifically for an event and everyone complained about a new codex so much that it was cancelled.

If all the guy had with him was his tourney list, then that's an acceptable way to look at it... but to bring a second list that is just as cheesed out, as the only other option you're willing to field. That smells a bit of TFG.

 danjbrierton wrote:
Should have agreed to play, but you get to use his army and vice versa. If he was a good sportsman, he would probably bite.

Ah army switches.

Like the last thread involving superheavies.

If he wants to play with his 2-5 titans, then im going to bring my own titans and super heavys. only to be fair.

Honestly though i dont understand the fascination with MASSIVE things in normal 40k.

I can understand one in a bigger 2k+ game as a center piece to destroy. or a relatively weak one with no D weapons (besides CC because honestly its not a big deal in CC) at 1.5K + games

But when people start bringing multiple long ranged D weapon templates that cant be murdurised by normal means, it calls into question if they are compensating for something.

Maybe he'll learn next time. I wouldn't have fought him either.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Our local store had to cancel our months long anticipated Tournament because the Eldar dex got dropped and people started backing out of the tournament until we had less then 8 players (3 eldar).

What happened? Was there a stated connection between the people backing out and the codex release? I don't understand. It sounds like two different things.

Desubot wrote:But when people start bringing multiple long ranged D weapon templates that cant be murdurised by normal means, it calls into question if they are compensating for something.

They're compensating for the fact that they have nothing better to spend their money or time on than little plastic toys. [And I don't care how good an Imperial Knight is. It's not worth $140. It's a plastic toy; if you drop $140 on a plastic toy, you should seriously be re-examining your life.] Games are casual by definition. When people understand this, the world will be a better place.

I personally asked four people who backed out and their answer was basically along the lines of "had other things going on and the Eldar codex just pushed it over the edge"

So the other 4-6 who backed out? I can't categorically say that the eldar are the reason, at this point its just hte biggest reason

Eadartri wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Our local store had to cancel our months long anticipated Tournament because the Eldar dex got dropped and people started backing out of the tournament until we had less then 8 players (3 eldar).

What happened? Was there a stated connection between the people backing out and the codex release? I don't understand. It sounds like two different things.

I think that the idea is that people started backing out because they didn't want to play against OP eldar lists.

Traditio wrote:

Desubot wrote:But when people start bringing multiple long ranged D weapon templates that cant be murdurised by normal means, it calls into question if they are compensating for something.

They're compensating for the fact that they have nothing better to spend their money or time on than little plastic toys. [And I don't care how good an Imperial Knight is. It's not worth $140. It's a plastic toy; if you drop $140 on a plastic toy, you should seriously be re-examining your life.] Games are casual by definition. When people understand this, the world will be a better place.

Or, you know, value means different things to different people. I think it's too expensive too but I wouldn't tell someone who bought it they need to 're-examine their life'.

Games aren't casual by definition. The majority of games are played casually, but look at things like football or rugby, which are games, they're played pretty seriously. Professionally even. You can play a game as casually or as seriously as you want to. Presuming you have an opponent who enjoys it the same way of course.

ImAGeek wrote:Or, you know, value means different things to different people.

And people once thought that the sun revolves around the earth. What's your point?

I think it's too expensive too but I wouldn't tell someone who bought it they need to 're-examine their life'.

If you're willing to spend that much time and effort and money on a game, there's something wrong with you.

Games aren't casual by definition.

A game is that which is played. Play = not serious = casual = leisure.

The majority of games are played casually, but look at things like football or rugby, which are games, they're played pretty seriously. Professionally even.

Yes. I think that there's something seriously wrong about this. It think it's noteworthy that Plato doesn't provide a place for professional athletes either in the Republic or in the Laws.

So because you think that 1. Spending a lot of money on a game and 2. Games being played competitively are wrong, there's something wrong with the world and that something is wrong with those people...

Also what's your point about the sun and the earth thing..?

To be quite frank, I don't give ten shades what Plato thought about games. If someone enjoys playing games competitively, more power too them. You don't get to govern how people enjoy things because of your opinions or some guys who's been dead for years.

 ImAGeek wrote:
So because you think that 1. Spending a lot of money on a game and 2. Games being played competitively are wrong, there's something wrong with the world and that something is wrong with those people...

What could possibly justify spending $140 on an imperial knight? Seriously. Give me a list of reasons why someone would buy one. For every reason you list, I will be able to tell you why there's something wrong with that person.

Also what's your point about the sun and the earth thing..?

The fact that A believes B generally doesn't tell us anything about whether or not B obtains in reality.

1. Because they like the model. Done, sorted. Literally no argument you can come up with will convince me that that therefore means there's something wrong with that person.

 ImAGeek wrote:
1. Because they like the model. Done, sorted. Literally no argument you can come up with will convince me that that therefore means there's something wrong with that person.

You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
1. Because they like the model. Done, sorted. Literally no argument you can come up with will convince me that that therefore means there's something wrong with that person.

You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa.

Amazing. Why are you playing wargames at all then instead of donating all that money to charity? Man there's something seriously wrong with you.

ImAGeek wrote:Amazing. Why are you playing wargames at all then instead of donating all that money to charity? Man there's something seriously wrong with you.

I think that there's a qualitative difference between spending $20 on ebay on a used space marines squad and $140 on a single new model.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:Amazing. Why are you playing wargames at all then instead of donating all that money to charity? Man there's something seriously wrong with you.

I think that there's a qualitative difference between spending $20 on ebay and $140 on a single model.

I disagree. I think if you're going to bring up the 'people are starving' argument, you need to not buy anything non essential and donate all that money to charity, otherwise it's a very hypocritical thing to say. It's not the person who bought the Knights fault that people are starving. It's not as if that £95 would have made any measurable difference and they just bought a model instead. For all you know, they might donate £95 to charity for every Knight they buy. Get off your high horse.

ImAGeek wrote:I disagree. I think if you're going to bring up the 'people are starving' argument, you need to not buy anything non essential and donate all that money to charity, otherwise it's a very hypocritical thing to say. It's not the person who bought the Knights fault that people are starving. It's not as if that £95 would have made any measurable difference and they just bought a model instead. For all you know, they might donate £95 to charity for every Knight they buy. Get off your high horse.

I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Makes me sad that it's impossible to play a good game without homeruling in some cases. However, i think that it should be a common practice to homerule the units that are either overpowered or underpowered. Think that we've forgotten that it's firstly a game about toy soldiers running around killing each other. That it's not serious enough to 100% stick to the book. It's not a law or something.

You got WK that noone likes t play against? Why not make it's guns s10 ap1 and take it's gargant status away.
You have possessed that you'd like to field that are complete garbage? Why not make them beasts or t5-6.

Think it should be common practice for before-games negotiations instead of bringing or not bringing some OP stuff. It takes the exact ammount of time yet you can bring whatever you want and occasionally invent fun fluffy rules.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:I disagree. I think if you're going to bring up the 'people are starving' argument, you need to not buy anything non essential and donate all that money to charity, otherwise it's a very hypocritical thing to say. It's not the person who bought the Knights fault that people are starving. It's not as if that £95 would have made any measurable difference and they just bought a model instead. For all you know, they might donate £95 to charity for every Knight they buy. Get off your high horse.

I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

There really isn't. Value of things is different to everyone. Get over it.

First of all, 2 Revenant Titans would be your entire army in a normal sized game. If he has 2 Revenants scatterbikes and wraithknights... he won't have anyone to play with in pickup games, because people don't bring 4000 points of models to stores for PUGs.

Traditio wrote:

I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Dude, every dollar I blow on plastic toys is because it looks cool. I mean, it's the top reason I love 40k and miniatures in general. It certainly isn't because tabletop wargames and miniatures make the world a better place. And it isn't to have the winningest army either, because 2/3 of my models are unplayable if you want to actually win Like my 100+ and growing terminators, 20+ and growing dreadnoughts. Will I ever play that 7th or 8th Furioso? NO! lol. And I need another Razorback or Drop Pod for my army like I need more fillings -- yet I keep adding them!

RULE #1 REMINDER - avoid personal attacks, or really even the hint of a personal attack.

ImAGeek wrote: There really isn't. Value of things is different to everyone. Get over it.

Again, to the bolded: what's your point? This doesn't prove anything.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm stating that to someone else, that £95 imperial knight might be worth it. And if it is to them, then that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that person because they're okay with spending that much money on something.

Traditio wrote:I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Just to be clear: in the above, the referent of "you" wasn't ImAGeek. The "you" was the general use of the word "you." No offense intended to ImAGeek.

People can spend their money as they please. If you're going to judge people based on what they spend their own money, there might be something wrong with you.

I know. I've already said I don't think it is worth it. But I'm not going around saying there's something wrong with people if they do.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm stating that to someone else, that £95 imperial knight might be worth it. And if it is to them, then that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that person because they're okay with spending that much money on something.

It very well might, at least, depending on the person's specific circumstances. There are virtues which govern these things. Consider, for example, the virtue of liberality, and the opposed vices of meanness/niggardliness/stinginess and prodality (see Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics).

 Mumblez wrote:
People can spend their money as they please. If you're going to judge people based on what they spend their own money, there might be something wrong with you.

Precisely. It's not like they're buying nuclear weapons or child porn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm stating that to someone else, that £95 imperial knight might be worth it. And if it is to them, then that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that person because they're okay with spending that much money on something.

It very well might, at least, depending on the person's specific circumstances. There are virtues which govern these things. Consider, for example, the virtue of liberality, and the opposed vices of meanness/niggardliness/stinginess and prodality (see Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics).

What?

ImAGeek wrote:What?

There are virtues which deal with matters of monetary exchange. An act which is opposed to an act of virtue is an act of vice.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:What?

There are virtues which deal with matters of monetary exchange. An act which is opposed to an act of virtue is an act of vice.

I know what vice and virtue are, I just don't see how they have anything to do with buying a bloody GW model.

ImAGeek wrote:I know what vice and virtue are, I just don't see how they have anything to do with buying a bloody GW model.

Is the purchase of a $140 plastic toy a circumstance in which the subject is either going to be acting prodigally, liberally or stingily?

It's sad that people didn't want to attempt to defeat the dude's tournament Eldar list. they could have learned something...

It's sad that the dude didn't bring an alternative list that would have been more appealing to a casual gamer. A mutually enjoyable game could have taken place...

It's even more sad that his alternate list had 2 Revenant Titans in it. That's kinda like asking "Hey, would you liked to be slapped in the face? No? Well, how about a sledgehammer to the crotch instead?" The fact that this was his alternative idea for a game DOES lean heavily towards him being somewhat of a D-bag, but if I was to give him an out, it would be to say that it sucks that everyone in the world suddenly hates his army to the point of not wanting to play the game against it. I'm sure it sucks, especially considering Eldar had just went through a few years of being one of the least popular armies to play against.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:I know what vice and virtue are, I just don't see how they have anything to do with buying a bloody GW model.

Is the purchase of a $140 plastic toy a circumstance in which the subject is either going to be acting prodigally, liberally or stingily?

Why does it matter?

 ImAGeek wrote:

Traditio wrote:Is the purchase of a $140 plastic toy a circumstance in which the subject is either going to be acting prodigally, liberally or stingily?

Why does it matter?

Because you have two options:

1. It is not. Therefore it is not a monetary exchange, which, of course, is false.

2. It is. Then the subject is either going to be acting well or poorly. His act will either be that of a virtue or of a vice.

There's no third option.

No they're not. They're just buying a model. Stop putting such a big moral question on things like spending your money and playing games, it's ridiculous.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not. They're just buying a model. Stop putting such a big moral question on things like spending your money and playing games, it's ridiculous.

In concreto, there's no such thing as a morally neutral act. Whatever you do, you're going to be doing it well or poorly. You can tell me, of course, "but this is not the due matter for any of the virtues." But then I'll ask you whether there is a certain "area" of life which can be lived humanly, and yet does not require the rule of reason. If you say "yes," then you utter a contradiction (to perform a human action is to perform an act which proceeds from knowledge and will). If you say "no," then you grant my argument.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:What?

There are virtues which deal with matters of monetary exchange. An act which is opposed to an act of virtue is an act of vice.

I refuse to believe that you live your life in such a binary fashion that anything which is not inherently a social good you refuse to do. Unless I happen to be corresponding here with a religious hermit (who likes the Internet), that's just not the case. All that they are trying to explain to you is that different people ascribe different value to things. If you think someone spending $140 on something because they like how it looks absurd, you really don't want to know that I paid around $200 for a painting last year. It doesn't even do anything - it just hangs there!

People spend their money or time (which can be converted to money) on all sorts of things that don't have inherent purpose. They'll spend a $1,000 or more having their living room painted to a colour they like! What ImAGeek is pointing out to you, is that worth is subjective and whilst you may not consider something worth that much money, your opinion is no more valid than the person who does.

Anyway, as regards the poor player who no-one would give a game to, I feel sorry for them. They invested lots of time and money into building an army and then are not only barred from playing with other people because GW can't write balanced rules to save their lives, but they're mocked for it. If I took up a game as a hobby and then when I tried to challenge people they said they would only play if they were allowed to choose what models I could or could not use, I would not be happy with that either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not. They're just buying a model. Stop putting such a big moral question on things like spending your money and playing games, it's ridiculous.

In concreto, there's no such thing as a morally neutral act. Whatever you do, you're going to be doing it well or poorly. You can tell me, of course, "but this is not the due matter for any of the virtues." But then I'll ask you whether there is a certain "area" of life which can be lived humanly, and yet does not require the rule of reason. If you say "yes," then you utter a contradiction (to perform a human action is to perform an act which proceeds from knowledge and will). If you say "no," then you grant my argument.

You are misapplying this argument because you have begun with an assumption that you have not proven. That assumption is that pleasing oneself is not a virtue. The person spent $140 dollar on something which made them happy (else they would not have done it). You can quote philosophers but unless you can show that someone spending $140 to make themselves happy is morally wrong, your argument is based on false proposition.

And if you do wish to argue that spending $140 to make oneself happy is morally wrong, how do you feel that you arrived at this value. Is the $20 you spent on models also morally wrong? If not, why not? If so, why condemn another for the same thing. Is it because $140 is a large sum to you? Perhaps it is not to them. Maybe they work hard all day and earn that money why should they not spend it on themself in some way? Perhaps you think it is a large sum for a single model but you also went to the movies several times last year, whilst they never did. Overall, they may have spent less than you on leisure. You do not know. Is something morally wrong when it is a lump sum but not morally wrong when it is multiple small items? Maybe you eat much more than they do and therefore they have more money to spend and are less of a burden on our ecosystem. How does your algebra of morality work in that instance? Without knowing, you cannot judge this person for their spend. Even then, it's unnecessary to go down this route to invalidate your argument. The burden of proof for a proposition is upon the proposer. How do you shouw us that spending $140 to make oneself happy is wrong. If I spent $200 to make someone else happy, that would surely be an even greater crime by your reasoning, because that is still just another person no different to myself and now the cost is even greater! If you wish to make the argument you are making, first prove your starting proposition because others of us do not accept that. It is, as another pointed out, ridiculous.

You're happy to toss off phrases such as In Concreto, but you haven't thought this through. You're merely parroting the arguments of others without examining if they apply.

Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

pretty sad that people didn't show up to play "because of Eldar". Nothing like buying into the hype. Why not play a few games (chances are you won't face Eldar every game) and then report back with actual experiences? Maybe even a simple."yep, they were as bad as I expected", but something.

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

I wasn't singling anyone out.

I'd like to point out that the OP's point was that a guy was TFG based on his list and his army of choice, that he brought to a tourney game.
Now I've been there before. I spent a week trying to fine tune a list to our tournaments small house rules and criteria and ended up with an army I was proud of. This is while finishing up the painting on my models that I had been working on (not requirement but I wanted to have a proud display on the tournament day).

Then the tournament gets canceled due to lack of participants. Happened a lot really. I played Tau and the games really died off near the end of 6th and I don't even think exists in my area for 7th now.

But on the occasions I've gone I brought what models I needed for the tournament and found out it wasn't being held. I played Tau/Eldar in 6th and it was painful trying to get a pick up game when all you have is a fine tuned list and didn't want to just pack up and leave after a 30 minute trip. I often did badly in the tournaments, but it may be because we played with large amounts of LOS blocking terrain so melee armies could actually get into combat.
I remember one time I showed up with a standard 500 point army to a tournament only to find out that they changed the ENTIRE setup the day after all the other players had a discussion on it. I showed up blind to a tournament that was all kill points and no minimum FOC restrictions.

It really really kills me to see a thread start off like this. Where someone rants about someone, describing a position I've been in many times before. The guy could have been a jerk, but it honestly just sounds like he wanted to try out a list or two. Didn't seem like he was hiding this, apparently you all knew what his list was before you declined the games.

If you want to have a TFG thread, try actually starting off with a TFG story. I've had plenty that were just rude, lied about unit equipment, abusing rules and cheating, modeling for obvious advantage, list tailoring, and so on. He brought a legal list and had wysiwyg? Did he ever hide that it was competitive? There is an ever widening division in the community, or perhaps it's just more noticeable as the player base dwindles. But if you really want to complain about someone being TFG, then try starting it off with more than maybe just someone picking the wrong army.

 Rismonite wrote:

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

I wasn't singling anyone out.

Fair enough, but that's part of the problem. If you paint with broad strokes and say A is like B, you're going to catch everyone that falls into A, even when it's only some of A that actually match B. Hence you're going to get random people defending themselves because you're talking about a group, not an individual.

Is the guy a dick?

If not, you guy just blackballed a guy who's only crime is buy model from the company you lov and support. So for his crime of supporting GW and if you aren't buying the new hotness, then he is the only one helping GW bottom line. You guy not only don't play vs. him but basically talk smack to, that doesn't make him the TFG in this scene.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Our local store had to cancel our months long anticipated Tournament because the Eldar dex got dropped and people started backing out of the tournament until we had less then 8 players (3 eldar).

I am very sad for you guys. Ghaz, I know you've been pretty vehement about the elf book, but really, things can be easily handled.

"Months long anticipated". I strongly urge you to reset and try again in two weeks. Tell all your buds to use a 'nerf set' of limitations. 2 weeks to go over them. So you don't have to re-invent anything, go ahead and use the ITC stuff. It was written with the purpose of tourney play.

I am wondering why did your TO not take a survey of the regulars in the beginning, and impose some agreed upon nerfs (like the ITC did) and keep the show running?

Common sense items:
LoW 0-1 or none at all
Reduce Destroyer on eldar to Distort (ITC Destroyers are stronger)
CAD limitations, 1 and 1.

That'll pretty much make your more timid players okay to show up.

As to the Revenant TFG, you and your buds handled him well. "Sorry, nope. No argument you present will sway me to play you, man. No SH walkers or SH anything. Have a nice day."

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

I wasn't singling anyone out.

Fair enough, but that's part of the problem. If you paint with broad strokes and say A is like B, you're going to catch everyone that falls into A, even when it's only some of A that actually match B. Hence you're going to get random people defending themselves because you're talking about a group, not an individual.

I was trying to disconnect myself from what you said because you put lots of words in my mouth and they seemed to have nothing to do with what I said.

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

What if there is no challange, if you know that on the tables and with the rules given you will not win. Where is a challange in that? Now of course eldar players may not know how it feels to have a bad army, because the worse they had for like a year was having a hard to play footslogger list. Unlike let say an orc player who had to go through 10 years of a bad codex. What can an IG player learn from playing eldar? That their army is slower, less resilient, less flexible, with fewer options of viable units and builds.

Makumba wrote:

 knas ser wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Perhaps it's my mindset but "I don't want to tone down my army because I could lose" sounds the same as "I don't want to play if I can't win".

It isn't. I love a hard fought game whether that be a table-top wargame or a squash match or a football game. I don't particularly mind if I win or lose, but I enjoy the challenge and the striving. Seriously, you must be able to relate to the pleasure of matching wits against another person, whether that be sports, chess or a computer game. That pleasure vanishes if one is deliberately sabotaging oneself or your opponent is stopping you and saying "no, I want you to play differently so that I can win". People can play however they like, but I really dislike being told that if I enjoy a competitive game or sport it's because I am a bad / immature person who can't deal with losing. That's just offensive and no more accurate than if someone were to say that saying "the game should be casual" sounds the same as "I don't think I can win". Is that accurate? If not, then why should the inverse be accurate?

What if there is no challange, if you know that on the tables and with the rules given you will not win. Where is a challange in that? Now of course eldar players may not know how it feels to have a bad army, because the worse they had for like a year was having a hard to play footslogger list. Unlike let say an orc player who had to go through 10 years of a bad codex. What can an IG player learn from playing eldar? That their army is slower, less resilient, less flexible, with fewer options of viable units and builds.

If there is no challenge because you cannot win even if you try, then similarly that is boring and nearly as pointless as a victory that comes without trying.

So I get what you're saying. But I still feel sorry for the person the OP talked about. They invested a lot of time and money into a hobby and then find that no-one will play with them because the game doesn't provide a balance itself. I'm not having a go at people for not playing with him if it's really that pointless. What I'm doing is defending him as I don't think he did anything wrong and I don't see a reason to mock him. There's a difference between defending someone and blaming / attacking other people. I blame the rules for the situation. I only blame the other players in so far as people calling him names / blaming him for not sharing their view on things. I don't think that's fair and I dislike people not being able to tell the difference between enjoying competition and not being able to handle losing.

bullyboy wrote:
pretty sad that people didn't show up to play "because of Eldar". Nothing like buying into the hype. Why not play a few games (chances are you won't face Eldar every game) and then report back with actual experiences? Maybe even a simple."yep, they were as bad as I expected", but something.

I don't have to experience 2-3 hours worth of watching paint dry to know it's not something I want to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I don't understand why it's necessary to apply this semester's philosophy course to someone buying something they like. It's more than just "a plastic toy", anyway. It's a toy you build yourself then paint to whatever color scheme appeals the most at the time. Then you show it off to your friends and play games with it.

I can agree that particular player was being TFG, but to drop out of a tournament because "Eldar are coming" is really ridiculous especially if you have either only played a few games or haven't even played against the new Eldar at all. Youre not going to get better playing against them by continually running away from playing them and the hype they have is completely overblown and over the top, this is coming from playing several games against the new Eldar and actually winning a good number of them with both my Tau and my IG forces.

I passed on all games this weekend because they were going to all be Eldar, even though it meant someone else didn't get a game. I'd just rather do something else.

Oh man another thread for people to cry about eldar, started by the same person who starts all of these eldar cry threads. Suprised this hasnt been locked yet.

I just ran a tourney where we had a huge turn out 3 eldar out of about 15 or 16 people. First place was a footdar list with one D choice, a vaul support battery. Second place was grey knights. Everyone had a great time and i only had to deal with one tfg who cried because he didnt know how interceptor worked.

Begging to question how many eldar horror stories are 100 percent truthful. Im starting to feel a bit bad for the eldar players. In my area because they cant play their favorite army that they put time into because of people freaking out as soon a gaurdian is set down during deployment.

die toten hosen wrote:
Oh man another thread for people to cry about eldar, started by the same person who starts all of these eldar cry threads. Suprised this hasnt been locked yet.

I just ran a tourney where we had a huge turn out 3 eldar out of about 15 or 16 people. First place was a footdar list with one D choice, a vaul support battery. Second place was grey knights. Everyone had a great time and i only had to deal with one tfg who cried because he didnt know how interceptor worked.

Begging to question how many eldar horror stories are 100 percent truthful. Im starting to feel a bit bad for the eldar players. In my area because they cant play their favorite army that they put time into because of people freaking out as soon a gaurdian is set down during deployment.

Thank you for that personal attack hosen, i'll make sure to take any valid point you make now with a grain of salt knowing that you act like this. Im assuming you didn't bother to read my posts in here because if you had you would have read that this guy was being a jerk at the store. Refused to tone down his army, and when offered the chance to play a TAU player with his titan he refused because the tau player asked him to only use 1 titan and not 2. This was a huge case of TFG because of his attitude, his lists, his demeanor and his storming out when players told him point blank they wouldn't play against his Broken Decurion because they only had time for a single game and wanted it to be fun and not get shot off the board by turn 2.

Keep your personal attacks out of this thread or don't post.

Ive not met a single tfg eldar player in my meta. Everysingle tfg ive met in my tournys and games is orks or nids. They do nothing but make every tau, eldar, and well every other player feel terrible for playing an army they enjoy. All well bragging about how fluffy their buzzgob mek stomper is, and how terrible nids are in events(nids generally fill 3 or 4 of the top eight slots in my lgs scene). Humble bragging is huge issue in this community and this site as a whole

Im taking your OP with a grain of salt based on your posting history filled with tears.

die toten hosen wrote:
Ive not met a single tfg eldar player in my meta. Everysingle tfg ive met in my tournys and games is orks or nids. They do nothing but make every tau, eldar, and well every other player feel terrible for playing an army they enjoy. All well bragging about how fluffy their buzzgob mek stomper is, and how terrible nids are in events(nids generally fill 3 or 4 of the top eight slots in my lgs scene). Humble bragging is huge issue in this community and this site as a whole

Im taking your OP with a grain of salt based on your posting history filled with tears.

I sure wish I could enjoy BA. Thanks GW. The only way I can engage Eldar is to not play them.

Wow...

OK!

RULE #1 everyone, all the time - thanks!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.

Martel732 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Ive not met a single tfg eldar player in my meta. Everysingle tfg ive met in my tournys and games is orks or nids. They do nothing but make every tau, eldar, and well every other player feel terrible for playing an army they enjoy. All well bragging about how fluffy their buzzgob mek stomper is, and how terrible nids are in events(nids generally fill 3 or 4 of the top eight slots in my lgs scene). Humble bragging is huge issue in this community and this site as a whole

Im taking your OP with a grain of salt based on your posting history filled with tears.

I sure wish I could enjoy BA. Thanks GW. The only way I can engage Eldar is to not play them.

apparently the LGS i work at is a island unto itself.
BA tend to do very well and the 2 players we have that play them are generally pretty hardcore about their armies. one dude runs death company in a flier with a baal pred and some scouts, the other runs a sicaran with a death company dred and drop pods.

I have had maybe one guy who could be called TFG show up in every 3 events we run and he is always orks, nids, or necrons. all our eldar, tau and other "OP" armies are played by generally okay dudes. where ever ya'll play must be terrible if you keep having experiences like these.

die toten hosen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Ive not met a single tfg eldar player in my meta. Everysingle tfg ive met in my tournys and games is orks or nids. They do nothing but make every tau, eldar, and well every other player feel terrible for playing an army they enjoy. All well bragging about how fluffy their buzzgob mek stomper is, and how terrible nids are in events(nids generally fill 3 or 4 of the top eight slots in my lgs scene). Humble bragging is huge issue in this community and this site as a whole

Im taking your OP with a grain of salt based on your posting history filled with tears.

I sure wish I could enjoy BA. Thanks GW. The only way I can engage Eldar is to not play them.

apparently the LGS i work at is a island unto itself.
BA tend to do very well and the 2 players we have that play them are generally pretty hardcore about their armies. one dude runs death company in a flier with a baal pred and some scouts, the other runs a sicaran with a death company dred and drop pods.

I have had maybe one guy who could be called TFG show up in every 3 events we run and he is always orks, nids, or necrons. all our eldar, tau and other "OP" armies are played by generally okay dudes. where ever ya'll play must be terrible if you keep having experiences like these.

I mostly play with people practicing for tournaments. They have very efficient lists and go for tablings whenever possible. Against players doing their best to win, mono-BA are quite poor. However, I have gotten rather tired of this and didn't play this weekend at all because everyone had an Eldar list but one guy who was already playing. New hotness indeed.

Martel732 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Ive not met a single tfg eldar player in my meta. Everysingle tfg ive met in my tournys and games is orks or nids. They do nothing but make every tau, eldar, and well every other player feel terrible for playing an army they enjoy. All well bragging about how fluffy their buzzgob mek stomper is, and how terrible nids are in events(nids generally fill 3 or 4 of the top eight slots in my lgs scene). Humble bragging is huge issue in this community and this site as a whole

Im taking your OP with a grain of salt based on your posting history filled with tears.

I sure wish I could enjoy BA. Thanks GW. The only way I can engage Eldar is to not play them.

apparently the LGS i work at is a island unto itself.
BA tend to do very well and the 2 players we have that play them are generally pretty hardcore about their armies. one dude runs death company in a flier with a baal pred and some scouts, the other runs a sicaran with a death company dred and drop pods.

I have had maybe one guy who could be called TFG show up in every 3 events we run and he is always orks, nids, or necrons. all our eldar, tau and other "OP" armies are played by generally okay dudes. where ever ya'll play must be terrible if you keep having experiences like these.

I mostly play with people practicing for tournaments. They have very efficient lists and go for tablings whenever possible. Against players doing their best to win, mono-BA are quite poor. However, I have gotten rather tired of this and didn't play this weekend at all because everyone had an Eldar list but one guy who was already playing. New hotness indeed.

this is nothing new though. new books come out and they see a surge. things generally wind back down after a while or when th enext book drops. my LGS has seen this with orks, nids, BA, DE, etc.
the only ones who stuck with it are the BA and Nid players because Nids are pretty good right now and the BA players tend to always lose by one point in our scenarios.

die toten hosen wrote:


I have had maybe one guy who could be called TFG show up in every 3 events we run and he is always orks, nids, or necrons. all our eldar, tau and other "OP" armies are played by generally okay dudes. where ever ya'll play must be terrible if you keep having experiences like these.

You get a tfg in three out of three events and the other guy is unlucky because his tfg plays different armies than yours?

Hosen, Sorry you feel that Ork players are TFG as a group. Generally the consensus is that Ork players are the.....well usually we are the nicest to play against since we have never once had a codex that could be even remotely called "Top Tier' and realistically, we are Mid to Low tier.

This Eldar player was a jerk and acted like TFG and eventually left because we didn't want to put up with him. I have been to two stores in two distinctly different places and each one had a single person who could be labeled as "TFG" one played Eldar and one played.....well everything, guy had literally every army.

both guys shared unique qualities such as, Cheating, attitude, rudeness and a distinct lack of adjectives that were not four letter words usually shown on the internet as @*$& :-p

Regardless, sorry theirs so much hate out at the Eldar, most of its because everyone knows the Codex (and the Necrons) is Broken and OP and a handful (though not many) Eldar players keep trying to defend it saying things like "its balanced" when clearly it is not. anyway have a good one.

Hello everyone!

Yes, we see the offending posts in question!

In fact, they are the reason why I already posted this:

 Alpharius wrote:
Wow...

OK!

RULE #1 everyone, all the time - thanks!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.

Ok, if the offending person in the OP is really a bad person, it all ends there right?

He built a big Elder force for a tournament that got cancelled but showed up anyway.

His error was to still be looking for a tournament level of challenge but no-one brought the right toys.

TFG, or a player robbed of a game of competitive play?

Just by playing Elder seems to supply a bad label.

I had that problem with Grey Knights until I point out most of mine are the original metal.

Sad really, a victim of poor GW balance and players penalizing him for playing within rules as written.

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:Amazing. Why are you playing wargames at all then instead of donating all that money to charity? Man there's something seriously wrong with you.

I think that there's a qualitative difference between spending $20 on ebay on a used space marines squad and $140 on a single new model.

That's $20 you could have given to less well off people. What's wrong with you??

Seriously, we can make the same argument back on you. Don't tell people how to spend their own money. That's none of your business. Grow up.

So what's the point of a tournament if everyone is scared to play tournament lists? Sounds like a problem with the meta to me. If you don't want to face powerful spam lists, don't sign up for a TOURNAMENT.

 Talizvar wrote:

Just by playing Elder seems to supply a bad label.

I had that problem with Grey Knights until I point out most of mine are the original metal.

The thing is even if the eldar player points out his minis are 2nd ed, there's a huge chance that he's a cheeselord and just wants to spend 3 hours curbstomping you. Problem stems from the fact that they've always been the top-tier cutting edge army regardless of edition.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to play any eldar army without exception. They may have the rare good player here and there, but their unrivaled status as the most powerful army for 7 editions straight has attracted any TFG and WAACer that can be attracted.

Its not about denying games. Its about someone who lacks the ability to think emphatically, fairly and tactically, that went out to buy the army which he knows will give him the most advantage over others, so that he can have 3 hours of feeling adequate, while his opponent has 0 fun.

Frankly, it sounds like I wouldn't want to player either person based on this thread.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Generally the consensus is that Ork players are the.....well usually we are the nicest to play against since we have never once had a codex that could be even remotely called "Top Tier'

I recall somewhere that you'd only started playing 40k since last December ... I apologize if you've played longer. How long?

Otherwise,
a. 5e ork bikers were a terror
b. There was a FAQ/errata that turned the Deff-rolla into 2d6 or so of STR 10 Armor Ignoring hits with tank shock on the BattleWagons. I remember facing 4 of those things from more than one player's army lists. My buddy that went with me to BAO 2013 had that at one time.
c. Killa-Kan lists when the Cover Save was in a grey area about 6" to other models or units. 2012?

The Phil Kelly 5e ork codex was Top Tier. The other eldar codex was published some where in there (two books ago) and so forth. Heh, again, Phil Kelly 4e/5e.

DashofPepper turned 5e Dark Eldar Venom Spam into true hatred as he stomped his way through several GTs and tourneys. I ran DoP's same list. 24 lance weapons, 5 venoms, 28 wyches at 1850 points. I won maybe 54% of games with those.

People ran around rage quitting and such ... and then GK came along. Wyches took it hard from Cleansing Flame. A few switches to more kabalites and my GK problem went away.
Repeat the news cycle. Sky-is-Falling. Rage Quit. Broken codex.
Fliers in 6e.

It goes on.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and realistically, we are Mid to Low tier.
Regardless, sorry theirs so much hate out at the Eldar, most of its because everyone knows the Codex (and the Necrons) is Broken and OP and a handful (though not many) Eldar players keep trying to defend it saying things like "its balanced" when clearly it is not. anyway have a good one.

No one 'knows' for certain until data, Torrent of Fire numbers and tourney data comes in. Look at what units do, and how killy they are through MathHammer. Skip the adjectives. Look at odds and fractions and percentages.

I would like to invite you to check out another thread where adjectives describing the codex are not used, but instead, cold hard data, odds and numbers are discussed.

And I further invite you to wait until a few big GTs have their results posted.

Equate it to this:
Star athelete, #1 draft pick is traded to a great team. Tons of money spent. Commentators talk about how dominant the team will be in their league ... And in mid-season, well, let's wait and see how this dog actually performs.

Their have been 4 Ork Codex's published, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition and 7th edition.

1994, 1998, 2008 and 2014 are the years of the Ork Codex releases.

Furthermore, Orks were either the 1st or 2nd codex released for this edition and the numbers are in and we are mid to low tier. The Recent Ghaz supplement allowed orks a bit more leeway since we can take the good formations in their.

I started playing ORKS in 2014, Before that I was playing Blood Angels as far back as 1999. I did quit for a long time but I always kept up to date with the game because I love the fluff of it. And even back in 1999, orks were just about the easiest army to table.

Also the rules for Deff Rolla went from 4th edition until 7th edition and were 1D6 S10 AP- hits and a further 1D6 S10 Ap- hits ONLY if the player Death or Gloried. So whoever you played with was cheating :-P

as far as 5th edition bikers being a terror....well no, Ork Bikers Have only changed once since 4th edition so I don't know why they would have become a "Terror". Ork NOB Bikers were really good in the old 4th edition codex, but now they tend to suck :-(

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Their have been 4 Ork Codex's published, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition and 7th edition.

1994, 1998, 2008 and 2014 are the years of the Ork Codex releases.

Furthermore, Orks were either the 1st or 2nd codex released for this edition and the numbers are in and we are mid to low tier. The Recent Ghaz supplement allowed orks a bit more leeway since we can take the good formations in their.

I started playing ORKS in 2014, Before that I was playing Blood Angels as far back as 1999. I did quit for a long time but I always kept up to date with the game because I love the fluff of it. And even back in 1999, orks were just about the easiest army to table.

Also the rules for Deff Rolla went from 4th edition until 7th edition and were 1D6 S10 AP- hits and a further 1D6 S10 Ap- hits ONLY if the player Death or Gloried. So whoever you played with was cheating :-P

as far as 5th edition bikers being a terror....well no, Ork Bikers Have only changed once since 4th edition so I don't know why they would have become a "Terror". Ork NOB Bikers were really good in the old 4th edition codex, but now they tend to suck :-(

Well poor you.
Ork bikers are rad, they generally eat anything they touch in my experience.
Ive seen optimized ork lists wreck tau and eldar. Just gotta play smart

die toten hosen wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Their have been 4 Ork Codex's published, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition and 7th edition.

1994, 1998, 2008 and 2014 are the years of the Ork Codex releases.

Furthermore, Orks were either the 1st or 2nd codex released for this edition and the numbers are in and we are mid to low tier. The Recent Ghaz supplement allowed orks a bit more leeway since we can take the good formations in their.

I started playing ORKS in 2014, Before that I was playing Blood Angels as far back as 1999. I did quit for a long time but I always kept up to date with the game because I love the fluff of it. And even back in 1999, orks were just about the easiest army to table.

Also the rules for Deff Rolla went from 4th edition until 7th edition and were 1D6 S10 AP- hits and a further 1D6 S10 Ap- hits ONLY if the player Death or Gloried. So whoever you played with was cheating :-P

as far as 5th edition bikers being a terror....well no, Ork Bikers Have only changed once since 4th edition so I don't know why they would have become a "Terror". Ork NOB Bikers were really good in the old 4th edition codex, but now they tend to suck :-(

Well poor you.
Ork bikers are rad, they generally eat anything they touch in my experience.
Ive seen optimized ork lists wreck tau and eldar. Just gotta play smart

Die toten hosen, that was a reply to the poster directly above my post.

And my comment was at Ork NOB bikers not Ork Bikers, their is a very big difference, I usually run a 10-12 man Bike unit in most of my lists because they have lots of dakka, are extremely tough to kill and when they get into the assault they are basically T5 Ork Boyz..

Also "Ive seen optimized ork lists wreck tau and eldar. Just gotta play smart" I really don't view that as a constructive post, especially since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Their have been 4 Ork Codex's published, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 4th edition and 7th edition.

1994, 1998, 2008 and 2014 are the years of the Ork Codex releases.

Yeah, the 2008.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Furthermore, Orks were either the 1st or 2nd codex released for this edition and the numbers are in and we are mid to low tier. The Recent Ghaz supplement allowed orks a bit more leeway since we can take the good formations in their.

I started playing ORKS in 2014, Before that I was playing Blood Angels as far back as 1999. I did quit for a long time but I always kept up to date with the game because I love the fluff of it. And even back in 1999, orks were just about the easiest army to table.

Anything pre 3e is too far from today's 40k to compare.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Also the rules for Deff Rolla went from 4th edition until 7th edition and were 1D6 S10 AP- hits and a further 1D6 S10 Ap- hits ONLY if the player Death or Gloried. So whoever you played with was cheating :-Pp

No one cheated me. I cited 2d6 ... which you're right, was if you tried DoG'd. Given the RB Vehicle Damage Table back then, you had a reasonable chance of nailing the vehicle, but really sweated losing the whole unit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
as far as 5th edition bikers being a terror....well no, Ork Bikers Have only changed once since 4th edition so I don't know why they would have become a "Terror". Ork NOB Bikers were really good in the old 4th edition codex, but now they tend to suck :-(

Oops, my mistake. I used the word 'terror' and I have been trying to avoid using adjectives ... I just don't have data for how the armies performed from 5+ years ago. Or even 3.

I'm simply refuting your claim that orks have always sucked. By your own admission, you missed things until last year. I've played constantly since 2004. DeathWing, bugs, SM, tau, Eldar, CSM and daemons. And IG or AM.

And, I have more experience than you in watching a new 'dex being released. The Sky-is-Falling silliness. Months pass and the vitriol was for naught. Time and again.

I have owned:
3 SM codexes, and likely a 4th by year's end, if rumors pan out.
4 eldar books (didn't play 3e though)
2 tau books (and likely a 3rd by next year)
2 CSM books
2 daemon books
1 SW
1 Dark Angel
2 bug books
2 IG books

I played CSM Lash ... and it was not unbeatable. I beat 5e GKs with continuing satisfaction after a few months of being beat. I played Tau FishofFury. Lost and Won. Venom Spam, Wave Serpent Spam. Genestealer rush (4e). SM Drop Pods. Pask Plasma-cutioners & Vendettas.

Ghaz, you are over reacting. You are causing others to bring down the hobby. Look at your own example of people bailing on a tourney, because of a book.

I asked earlier, and I kindly ask again, did your TO not take steps to nerf the book? Will you and your buddies not give a tourney another shot? Nerf the hell out of the elves! But, allow a guy to play to some extent.

I enjoy tourney play because it's a guaranteed 3 games for the day, with rules that don't need haggling over (FLG, ITC, NOVA, etc) and after a bit, a great bunch of guys that I hoist a beer with.

I strongly encourage you to set aside your uncertainty and ... negativity over the codex, nerf it, work with your TO and friends, and not let it divert your, and your buddies' course, on what is a really awesome experience.

I bought the 3e eldar codex, cause I wanted to know how to beat them when I played Deathwing. It wasn't enough. Oops, it got replaced with the 4e book. Okay, buy that. Damn, still don't quite get how they work. Screw it, I said, and bought a Battle Force and learned to play them and then beat them.

Play it, man. Don't let it bring you down.

Punch those filthy Psyfile-man Dreads in their ball-bearings!
Oh, wrong broken unit.
Punch those WraithKnights in their twinsy, cry-baby jewels!

^This post here! Exalted! As with most obstacles in life, its always easier to give up and whine about it rather than learning to push through and adapt to hard situations. As much as GW's ruleset is imperfect and has obvious issues, there's still ways to work around changes in the meta and at the end of the day its a game. If you can't enjoy it (especially as an Ork player) then it really just may not be for you (no offense intended to those who are into the fluff/setting/modelling).

@Ghazkuul

I strongly urge you to listen to Brothererekose, he pretty much summed up what I tried to convey to you in the several threads we debated in the Proposed Rules forum. Orks may not be where we were back in our heyday in 4th-5th ed. but we can still make our opponent bleed and be a threat in our own right, we definitely don't go down without a fight.

I will give you this, I am extremely negative about the Eldar codex because it is broken and OP. Ive had a friend who plays Eldar point out things to me besides the Scatterbike and WK spam and its just broken. Firedragons comes to mind right away. but anyway.

I am not over reacting to the Codex, I didn't back out of the tournament I actually received a phone call saying "tournies off were down to 7 or 8" so I was a bit bummed. I had prepared a really good list and I had hoped to try it.

our TO did take steps to neutralize Eldar shenanigans but he didn't do much more then limiting it to 1 LoW regardless of Detachments and what not and that was about it.

If they managed to reorganize a tourny for this weekend I would be their to, even knowing that I will have to probably face 2-3 Eldar players. I don't care when im playing Tournaments and as broken as the Eldar codex is, i still think my orks have a chance so long as I can play better tactics then him/her.

As far as orks are concerned, this last codex is actually weaker then our 4th edition codex, all GW did was introduce 2 new units, rehash Flash gitz and to nerf a bunch of things that made orks fun. (Ramshackle, Ork Psychic shenanigans, Looted Wagonz and so on)

So don't view this as my personally attacking ALL Eldar everywhere, this was a very specific individual who acted like an arse and when nobody would play his tourny list (because we all brought Fluff lists) he got upset and started getting rather uppity with people. Now granted, Im kind of a dick myself once someone acts like that, after years of having to put uppity little pricks in their place it is rather hard for me to turn that part of my past off. regardless we were polite with him up until then and he refused to take the hint and eventually left.

IF tomorrow I go to the game store with my tournament list and a Eldar player is their with his Decurion shenanigans i'll gladly try it out for S&G and to study the eldar tactics. So please stop insinuating that this was me bashing EVERY ELDAR PLAYER! because again, one of my buddies is Eldar and is a great guy :-p

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I will give you this, I am extremely negative about the Eldar codex because it is broken and OP. Ive had a friend who plays Eldar point out things to me besides the Scatterbike and WK spam and its just broken. Firedragons comes to mind right away. but anyway.

I am not over reacting to the Codex, I didn't back out of the tournament I actually received a phone call saying "tournies off were down to 7 or 8" so I was a bit bummed. I had prepared a really good list and I had hoped to try it.

our TO did take steps to neutralize Eldar shenanigans but he didn't do much more then limiting it to 1 LoW regardless of Detachments and what not and that was about it.

If they managed to reorganize a tourny for this weekend I would be their to, even knowing that I will have to probably face 2-3 Eldar players. I don't care when im playing Tournaments and as broken as the Eldar codex is, i still think my orks have a chance so long as I can play better tactics then him/her.

As far as orks are concerned, this last codex is actually weaker then our 4th edition codex, all GW did was introduce 2 new units, rehash Flash gitz and to nerf a bunch of things that made orks fun. (Ramshackle, Ork Psychic shenanigans, Looted Wagonz and so on)

So don't view this as my personally attacking ALL Eldar everywhere, this was a very specific individual who acted like an arse and when nobody would play his tourny list (because we all brought Fluff lists) he got upset and started getting rather uppity with people. Now granted, Im kind of a dick myself once someone acts like that, after years of having to put uppity little pricks in their place it is rather hard for me to turn that part of my past off. regardless we were polite with him up until then and he refused to take the hint and eventually left.

IF tomorrow I go to the game store with my tournament list and a Eldar player is their with his Decurion shenanigans i'll gladly try it out for S&G and to study the eldar tactics. So please stop insinuating that this was me bashing EVERY ELDAR PLAYER! because again, one of my buddies is Eldar and is a great guy :-p

I run my events using the ITC ruleset that has toned D weps down a fair bit and has a limit on LOW. Works out really well. Depending on how well you know your local TO suggest looking into the ITC rule set. Reece at frontline is very accomadating with questions.
Unmodified 40k isnt something that works for legitimate tournys.

Well if GW wanted to kill competitive play than the Eldar codex was definitely the way to go it seems. Im just glad I know how to work things out prior to playsing people. I have a necron friend that in the sport of his special characters we sometimes add rules to them. Like Orikan the Diviner found some way to make immortals even more sturdy and gives all immortals a further +1 RP (breaking the maximum 4+ rule) that are within 12" of Orikan. It makes them pretty tough to kill I'll tell you that.

Traditio, I have bought 4 Imperial Knights and I think there's something seriously wrong with _you_.

I would play the guy's eldar list, if he wasnt a dick to play against, but I think 2 Revenants is pretty excessive.

 Xerics wrote:
Well if GW wanted to kill competitive play than the Eldar codex was definitely the way to go it seems. Im just glad I know how to work things out prior to playsing people. I have a necron friend that in the sport of his special characters we sometimes add rules to them. Like Orikan the Diviner found some way to make immortals even more sturdy and gives all immortals a further +1 RP (breaking the maximum 4+ rule) that are within 12" of Orikan. It makes them pretty tough to kill I'll tell you that.

I played a 2v2 the same day this event happened. it was my Orks with a Necron Player vs a Tau/IG army. The Necron player's models must have eaten more bullets that day then my orks could have in 3 games :-P the wraiths and Destroyers just kept getting roll after roll. It was amazing to watch and it made me fear playing a necron player a bit more :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Well if GW wanted to kill competitive play than the Eldar codex was definitely the way to go it seems. Im just glad I know how to work things out prior to playsing people. I have a necron friend that in the sport of his special characters we sometimes add rules to them. Like Orikan the Diviner found some way to make immortals even more sturdy and gives all immortals a further +1 RP (breaking the maximum 4+ rule) that are within 12" of Orikan. It makes them pretty tough to kill I'll tell you that.

I played a 2v2 the same day this event happened. it was my Orks with a Necron Player vs a Tau/IG army. The Necron player's models must have eaten more bullets that day then my orks could have in 3 games :-P the wraiths and Destroyers just kept getting roll after roll. It was amazing to watch and it made me fear playing a necron player a bit more :-P

Necrons are straight up gross. Glad my lgs only has one necron player. Their basic troop durability is stupid

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I will give you this, I am extremely negative about the Eldar codex because it is broken and OP. Ive had a friend who plays Eldar point out things to me besides the Scatterbike and WK spam and its just broken. Firedragons comes to mind right away. but anyway.

Again, vitriol and adjectives are near meaningless. Go to some numbers. "Broken and OP" need context.

And yeah, my thread on Destroyer versus the old Distort really shows a *big* power boost, now. It is a more powerful army, my number crunching showed that. But 'broken and OP' are hard to quantify. Where does one draw the line?

Still, like GW prints in the RB, bend, break and play how you want.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I am not over reacting to the Codex,

Kindly, yes, you are.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I didn't back out of the tournament I actually received a phone call saying "tournies off were down to 7 or 8" so I was a bit bummed. I had prepared a really good list and I had hoped to try it.

I completely agree with you. I would have been yelling, "Noo!" into the phone and calling my buddies immediately after to get them to change their minds. No, no, I was citing that your other participants had bailed out.

My only personal ... comment? ... assertion? at you, is to please, get your group together, agree on a rules set of nerfs and play.

I'd like to ask you to stop complaining about it. However, (no sarcasm) I'd be a hypocritical douche and will not ask you to stop. I'm a big believer in the First Amendment.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
our TO did take steps to neutralize Eldar shenanigans but he didn't do much more then limiting it to 1 LoW regardless of Detachments and what not and that was about it.

Then push him to do more. I mean, you guys not paying the entry fee is hurting their business, he'll bend to your will. Ours works with us on what we like and what is stupid.

Hell, PM me your store's number/name. Let's make it happen. Again, seriously.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So don't view this as my personally attacking ALL Eldar everywhere, this was a very specific individual who acted like an arse and when nobody would play his tourny list (because we all brought Fluff lists) he got upset and started getting rather uppity with people. Now granted, Im kind of a dick myself once someone acts like that, after years of having to put uppity little pricks in their place it is rather hard for me to turn that part of my past off. regardless we were polite with him up until then and he refused to take the hint and eventually left.

I don't take it so ... I think. I just would rather see/read that a problem was solved (like telling that TFG to zark-off) rather than the continued eldar hate.

When the next book comes out, will it be SM hate? Not you, Ghaz, specifically, but it'll be someone.

You missed the Mat Ward Hate-Train! Aww, see, if you'd been in 40k for his GK, Blood Angels and Necrons ... well , I think you'd have a better perspective on this phenomena of new book release, Internet blow-up ... and then time passing.

Anybody you know even remember Psyfileman-Dreads?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
IF tomorrow I go to the game store with my tournament list and a Eldar player is their with his Decurion shenanigans i'll gladly try it out for S&G and to study the eldar tactics. So please stop insinuating that this was me bashing EVERY ELDAR PLAYER! because again, one of my buddies is Eldar and is a great guy :-p

Right again, and I apologize. I failed to make myself clear. It's not you 'bashing EVERY ELDAR PLAYER' (caps for quotation).

It's bashing the book. Bashing it for the harm it will do to the hobby and the meta. Especially in the hands of a douche, like the TFG you refused to play.

That's what I'm after. To get you to stop bashing the book.

Guns should not be bashed. Marijuana shouldn't be bashed. Nuclear science shouldn't be bashed. Psyfleman-Dreads should not be bashed.

People who do stupid things with guns, nukes, marijuana and spamming Psy-Dreads should be bashed.

TOs who fail to nerf Invisibility, 2+ rerollables, and goodness knows what else GW spits out, those folks need bashing.

Smart folks use guns, drugs, and science wisely. Smart folks will curtail decurion detachments, the eldar formations, and other things, so games have the balance and playability that works for the players.

Be that smart guy.

That's what I'm after. To get you to stop bashing the book.

Guns should not be bashed. Marijuana shouldn't be bashed. Nuclear science shouldn't be bashed. Psyfleman-Dreads should not be bashed.

People who do stupid things with guns, nukes, marijuana and spamming Psy-Dreads should be bashed.

TOs who fail to nerf Invisibility, 2+ rerollables, and goodness knows what else GW spits out, those folks need bashing.

Smart folks use guns, drugs, and science wisely. Smart folks will curtail decurion detachments, the eldar formations, and other things, so games have the balance and playability that works for the players.

...What!? I can understand most of your post, but whats with the vast strangeness of the rest of it.

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So because you think that 1. Spending a lot of money on a game and 2. Games being played competitively are wrong, there's something wrong with the world and that something is wrong with those people...

What could possibly justify spending $140 on an imperial knight? Seriously. Give me a list of reasons why someone would buy one. For every reason you list, I will be able to tell you why there's something wrong with that person.

Also what's your point about the sun and the earth thing..?

The fact that A believes B generally doesn't tell us anything about whether or not B obtains in reality.

your carrying on about knights at $140 a throw? id love to know your opinion on..


or THIS pic
how about i toss you a link as well. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans

lets see the list of reasons i have to having the thunderhawk. its awesome. it looks the business, it is a great centrepiece, has great use in game, makes people jealous.
now lets see how bad a person you think i am, and remember i have MORE than just a thunderhawk, i have a warhound, Glaive, Felblade and a BaneBlade.

to be honest i think you cant justify buying such models for yourself, or someone told you NO so you gonna be a hater to those that have them

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That's what I'm after. To get you to stop bashing the book.

Guns should not be bashed. Marijuana shouldn't be bashed. Nuclear science shouldn't be bashed. Psyfleman-Dreads should not be bashed.

People who do stupid things with guns, nukes, marijuana and spamming Psy-Dreads should be bashed.

TOs who fail to nerf Invisibility, 2+ rerollables, and goodness knows what else GW spits out, those folks need bashing.

Smart folks use guns, drugs, and science wisely. Smart folks will curtail decurion detachments, the eldar formations, and other things, so games have the balance and playability that works for the players.

...What!? I can understand most of your post, but whats with the vast strangeness of the rest of it.

Sorry for not being clearer. I was reaching out to other examples of 'bad things' that are often thought of as bad, when really, they are used badly, or managed poorly (nuclear science, for example).

The Eldar codex gives elves a lot more bang for your points. And this decurion formation detachment thing ... well, I was trying to state, assert, that if you properly regulate something bad or dangerous, that it can be a useful thing.

Nukes? As energy, no. As a branch of medicine. Okay.

Guns? When your pack horse has taken a bad spill down the mountain side, broken its leg, and help is 4 hours ride down ... well, euthanasia.

And so forth.

Main point, I guess, was, modify the codex to suit your group's tastes.

Not every post is communication gold.

Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Serious question, are you trolling? Stating that everyone is going to abuse the codex is absurd, check your opponents list before playing let that be your indicator, I stress this point; Please do not deny people games because the army they chose recieved a strong codex.

Noir wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

Have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. It seems a large chunk of Eldar players have no mercy for us. Why should be show mercy to them? They are bringing this on themselves.

 Gamgee wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

Have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. It seems a large chunk of Eldar players have no mercy for us. Why should be show mercy to them? They are bringing this on themselves.

No they are just using what they are giving be GW, but your right you should show no mercy. No mercy to GW and 40K that is, teach them and stop playing and supporting them until they learn. they are bring it on themselves with bad game design.

 Gamgee wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

Have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. It seems a large chunk of Eldar players have no mercy for us. Why should be show mercy to them? They are bringing this on themselves.

Yes... they are bringing it on themselves by continuing to play the army they have been playing for 10 years or more, just because GW relased a codex that other palyers don't like. Nevermind that it might be the only army they own, nevermind if they like eldar because of the fluff, and nevermind if they are players who don't like playing cheese lists. GW released a silly codex so all those who play that army must be banned from the game forever... way to be a mature adult about the situation.

 Gamgee wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

Have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. It seems a large chunk of Eldar players have no mercy for us. Why should be show mercy to them? They are bringing this on themselves.

A large chunk??? Apart from the hypothetical army lists floating around everywhere, this threads OP and a couple others floating in the forums you'll find that it relates to the whole "no-one writes good reviews" because I've played in the local store, and two clubs around me and the only time we had an army list worthy of being burnt was when a player was testing the absurdity of it all.

Also what chanceaf said, to him

chanceafs wrote:

Yes... they are bringing it on themselves by continuing to play the army they have been playing for 10 years or more, just because GW relased a codex that other palyers don't like. Nevermind that it might be the only army they own, nevermind if they like eldar because of the fluff, and nevermind if they are players who don't like playing cheese lists. GW released a silly codex so all those who play that army must be banned from the game forever... way to be a mature adult about the situation.

You're actually proving Gamgee's point. Eldar has always been overpowered and broken. Whether you're a cheesemonger 10 years ago or now doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. You've been given 10 years to change out to something less abusive, and yet you've persisted. All the more anyone shouldn't pay against the older eldar players. The eldar faction has had 25 years to absorb as many WAAC and cheese players as they can. I doubt anyone will be breaking many eggs boycotting them.

Either way, whether people are matured or not, eventually, no one will like getting curbstomped for 3 hours straight so that some eldar player can satisfy his ego, and eventually, eldar players will have to change armies or stop playing altogether.

kburn wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

Yes... they are bringing it on themselves by continuing to play the army they have been playing for 10 years or more, just because GW relased a codex that other palyers don't like. Nevermind that it might be the only army they own, nevermind if they like eldar because of the fluff, and nevermind if they are players who don't like playing cheese lists. GW released a silly codex so all those who play that army must be banned from the game forever... way to be a mature adult about the situation.

You're actually proving Gamgee's point. Eldar has always been overpowered and broken. Whether you're a cheesemonger 10 years ago or now doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. You've been given 10 years to change out to something less abusive, and yet you've persisted. All the more anyone shouldn't pay against the older eldar players. The eldar faction has had 25 years to absorb as many WAAC and cheese players as they can. I doubt anyone will be breaking many eggs boycotting them.

Either way, whether people are matured or not, eventually, no one will like getting curbstomped for 3 hours straight so that some eldar player can satisfy his ego, and eventually, eldar players will have to change armies or stop playing altogether.

Eldar have always been a strong army in general, but not everyone plays them as strong as possible. Eldar are a damn cool army fluff wise and model wise, and people shouldn't be expected not to play something they like less because GW cannot write a balanced set of rules. It's not the Eldar players fault the codex is ridiculous.

Wait till your army is OP and everyone stops playing you, and people are telling you 'well you should just buy a whole new army'. Stop blaming players for GW incompetence. Most Eldar players seem unhappy with how strong the new codex is. They didn't ask for it.

kburn wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

Yes... they are bringing it on themselves by continuing to play the army they have been playing for 10 years or more, just because GW relased a codex that other palyers don't like. Nevermind that it might be the only army they own, nevermind if they like eldar because of the fluff, and nevermind if they are players who don't like playing cheese lists. GW released a silly codex so all those who play that army must be banned from the game forever... way to be a mature adult about the situation.

You're actually proving Gamgee's point. Eldar has always been overpowered and broken. Whether you're a cheesemonger 10 years ago or now doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. You've been given 10 years to change out to something less abusive, and yet you've persisted. All the more anyone shouldn't pay against the older eldar players. The eldar faction has had 25 years to absorb as many WAAC and cheese players as they can. I doubt anyone will be breaking many eggs boycotting them.

Either way, whether people are matured or not, eventually, no one will like getting curbstomped for 3 hours straight so that some eldar player can satisfy his ego, and eventually, eldar players will have to change armies or stop playing altogether.

I don't know what game you've been playing, but it's not the same one I learned

For the record, I started playing in 5th edition when Eldar was certainly NOT an overpowered and broken codex. IT was introduced to me as the hardest codex to play well, because unlike every other army at the time, you COULD NOT win games just by spamming the best units in the book. You had to pick a mix of units, and use each one in a specific way or watch your army crumble in no time flat/ And I took my lumps in those days, losing far more games than I won. Nobody else in my FLGS even played Eldar during that time. You don't have to be an Eldar player to be a cheesemonger, and not all cheesemongers are Eldar (nor the opposite).

The army you play is far less important than how you decide to play it. If you decide to play like a d-bag, then you should be treated as such. If you don't, then you shouldn't be treated like gak just because other people do.

Just as a side note to all this hatred, I am in no way saying Boycott all eldar players. This was a topic about a single player who was acting like TFG for bringing ridiculous lists and then getting mad when nobody wanted to lose for 3 hours straight against him.

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

The TFG are the ones turning down games before they've even faced the new eldar codex, especially if the eldar player isn't spamming cheesy units. Good luck on your pointless, self righteous crusade though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chanceafs wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Congratulations on turning him down.

It seems like the Eldar players aren't too happy about this. Well we're not too happy with that broken codex. With the squeeze on I encourage all players to deny Eldar as much games as possible. Put the squeeze on them.

People doubted me when I made that big topic to get them banned. Now we have this. I've seen more and more threads started here complaining about TFG Eldar players. This only proves my point. All too often they try and say they won't abuse their codex, and then you turn around and this happens. They will ruin it for all of us. All it takes is one person and one super bad codex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1CEZDk6u4

Yup, that really good for the long term health of the game .

Have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. It seems a large chunk of Eldar players have no mercy for us. Why should be show mercy to them? They are bringing this on themselves.

Yes... they are bringing it on themselves by continuing to play the army they have been playing for 10 years or more, just because GW relased a codex that other palyers don't like. Nevermind that it might be the only army they own, nevermind if they like eldar because of the fluff, and nevermind if they are players who don't like playing cheese lists. GW released a silly codex so all those who play that army must be banned from the game forever... way to be a mature adult about the situation.

The poster in question has shown multiple times in various threads that he has no intention of pretending to be a mature adult about anything...

Because it is not like eldar players use jetbikes, or WK or formations. But I understand that anyone who just bought some new jetbikes would be kind of a pissed, if others didn't let him play. Would be like buying a lot of FW and finding out that no one in your area is ok with it.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Just as a side note to all this hatred, I am in no way saying Boycott all eldar players. This was a topic about a single player who was acting like TFG for bringing ridiculous lists and then getting mad when nobody wanted to lose for 3 hours straight against him.

Indeed... judging the story as you presented it, I am in full agreement that the player you are describing would indeed qualify as TFG. I personally have no interest in ever taking more than one WK (if I even take one), in any game I play, tourney or not. The alternate list of 2 titan's is pretty damning.

I'm just trying to keep the perception of one D-bag from one location spilling over to everybody else who plays Eldar.

chanceafs wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Just as a side note to all this hatred, I am in no way saying Boycott all eldar players. This was a topic about a single player who was acting like TFG for bringing ridiculous lists and then getting mad when nobody wanted to lose for 3 hours straight against him.

Indeed... judging the story as you presented it, I am in full agreement that the player you are describing would indeed qualify as TFG. I personally have no interest in ever taking more than one WK (if I even take one), in any game I play, tourney or not. The alternate list of 2 titan's is pretty damning.

I'm just trying to keep the perception of one D-bag from one location spilling over to everybody else who plays Eldar.

Thanks Chance, also, as i mentioned a friend in the area is also an Eldar player who is SERIOUSLY into the fluff part of the Eldar, he was so excited that the aspect warriors all got big buffs because he has been wanting to field an aspect army that has a good chance at winning. I have a game set up with him sometime this week were just waiting to specify a time :-P. So as i said not ALL eldar players are jerks or TFG and I shouldn't have to say this but, The majority of Eldar players aren't TFG. I stopped playing SM because they were boring, not because i felt bad for winning all the time (which being Blood angels i didn't :-P) I chose orks because the codex was the weirdest, most random awesome codex around. Who wouldn't want a Trukk to randomly explode in a direction to be determined :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Just as a side note to all this hatred, I am in no way saying Boycott all eldar players. This was a topic about a single player who was acting like TFG for bringing ridiculous lists and then getting mad when nobody wanted to lose for 3 hours straight against him.

Indeed... judging the story as you presented it, I am in full agreement that the player you are describing would indeed qualify as TFG. I personally have no interest in ever taking more than one WK (if I even take one), in any game I play, tourney or not. The alternate list of 2 titan's is pretty damning.

I'm just trying to keep the perception of one D-bag from one location spilling over to everybody else who plays Eldar.

Thanks Chance, also, as i mentioned a friend in the area is also an Eldar player who is SERIOUSLY into the fluff part of the Eldar, he was so excited that the aspect warriors all got big buffs because he has been wanting to field an aspect army that has a good chance at winning. I have a game set up with him sometime this week were just waiting to specify a time :-P. So as i said not ALL eldar players are jerks or TFG and I shouldn't have to say this but, The majority of Eldar players aren't TFG. I stopped playing SM because they were boring, not because i felt bad for winning all the time (which being Blood angels i didn't :-P) I chose orks because the codex was the weirdest, most random awesome codex around. Who wouldn't want a Trukk to randomly explode in a direction to be determined :-P

I will admit, I have been tempted to play Ork for a long time, just because their fluff is just so fun. I'm the guy who, if I started an Ork army would but a Shokk Attack Gunn on the table every single game just because it's the most awesomely orky thing imaginable. (or at least was back in the day, I haven't actually seen the 6th ed ork codex so I have no idea how it works now.)

my fluffy lists always have a SAG, a Weirdboy, a Blitza Bomba and at least 60 boyz :-P

SAG for obvious reasons, Weirdboy because he is still weird as hell and the Blitza bomba because you either do really really well or you ram into the tank you were shooting at and kill it and yourself :-P

 Toofast wrote:

The TFG are the ones turning down games before they've even faced the new eldar codex, especially if the eldar player isn't spamming cheesy units. Good luck on your pointless, self righteous crusade though.

Woah - PLOT TWIST!

I think it's ridiculous that Eldar players are having to justify their army choice. I won't - I've had an Eldar army in some form for over 20 years.

The bedwetting from other players isn't even funny now. It's mass hysteria based on nothing except 'math hammer' and what COULD be brought to the table.

You'll get dreadful people bringing dreadful lists from every codex. Just opt to not play those people.

I'm still on the 'bargaining' stage myself.

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not. They're just buying a model. Stop putting such a big moral question on things like spending your money and playing games, it's ridiculous.

In concreto, there's no such thing as a morally neutral act. Whatever you do, you're going to be doing it well or poorly. You can tell me, of course, "but this is not the due matter for any of the virtues." But then I'll ask you whether there is a certain "area" of life which can be lived humanly, and yet does not require the rule of reason. If you say "yes," then you utter a contradiction (to perform a human action is to perform an act which proceeds from knowledge and will). If you say "no," then you grant my argument.

You must be a hoot at parties.

 monders wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

The TFG are the ones turning down games before they've even faced the new eldar codex, especially if the eldar player isn't spamming cheesy units. Good luck on your pointless, self righteous crusade though.

Woah - PLOT TWIST!

I think it's ridiculous that Eldar players are having to justify their army choice. I won't - I've had an Eldar army in some form for over 20 years.

The bedwetting from other players isn't even funny now. It's mass hysteria based on nothing except 'math hammer' and what COULD be brought to the table.

You'll get dreadful people bringing dreadful lists from every codex. Just opt to not play those people.

Well the new Eldar codex admittedly looks quite strong to the point of being OTT on the surface, that doesn't automatically mean they're 100% 'uber, because... "Reasons."

They do have their bad match-ups still, Daemons for example can wreck their supposed Psychic dominance...
Hordes will laugh at Wraith-centric armies, especially the mythical massed D-Scythe list...
Scatbike spam is purely an internet myth - 30-40+ bikes have incredibly predictable JSJ windows on your average 4'x6' table as that many bikes is just too unwieldy for that size of table...


Besides, I've yet to see this new codex put down a list with basic Troops, who can pass a few Ld9 tests and outright prevent an entire opposing army from even legally putting a single model on the table!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Besides, I've yet to see this new codex put down a list with basic Troops, who can pass a few Ld9 tests and outright prevent an entire opposing army from even legally putting a single model on the table!

I'm sorry, what? Please elaborate.

Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

You know, I've played Eldar several times now and I can assure you of a couple things, Gaz.

1) Not every eldar list is broken OP because it's Eldar. The Warhost is very strong if you bring the Windrider formation as the base core and more than one WK-anything else and it's okay but not crazy because the Guardian host and especially the Storm Guardian host ends up being a pretty big points sink with stuff that isn't that great.

2) Strength D is way overhyped, particularly against orks and other hordes! I hope you realize that you have better chances of surviving a Wraithcannon with a Trukk than a meltagun, yes? And that against an Ork, a D-scythe and a Heavy Flamer are exactly the same thing? The Wraithknight is crazy primarily because he gained the survivability tarpit resistance that came with getting Gargantuan basically for free. If it wasn't a gargant at 298 points it would be underpowered, D weaponry or not.

3) There are many units in the codex that are just as bad as the worst crap units that any army has. Rangers, their associated special character, Fuegan, Striking Scorpions, Fire Prisms, Storm Guardians, Wraithblades, Vypers... it is still possible and easy to tone down an Eldar list to play at whatever competitive level you want. Heck, I don't think any army would have an issue going up against a Warhost with a Storm Guardian host thingy as its core. Luckily, they do not suffer from the problem the Necrons have, where all the "default" choices are automatically better than most stuff that other people have-stick any Eldar infantry on foot and it's automatically pretty subpar.

4) Even the scariest Eldar Warhost list is not unbeatable. My friend and I actually wanted to try a game against "The big scary list" which was a double CAD with 2x WKs with cannons, a mess of Scatterbikes, and Wraithguard in a wave serpent, and I took a pretty standard blobs-n-russes behind an Aegis Guard list with some tempestus support to nab Maelstrom objectives, and he took a lot of hurt really fast. He might have had better odds if he'd played it differently (He moved his WK's to cover/seize objectives turn 1 instead of heading straight towards me, which let me focus on destroying the Wraithguard turn 1, which was a significant advantage) but even so everything that was oh-so-spooky in the Eldar dex died to buffed-up lascannons and LR Battlecannons just fine. And before you say "but warhost" remember that Scatbikers and Wraithknights get no benefit from the warhost formation bonuses-we used CADs so we could get the D-scythe Wraithguards in a Serpent in there, this was intended to be the most broken Eldar list possible.

From playing them recently and reading several posts, I feel like Ork hordes/MSU are the way to go against Eldar. D weapons suck for any armies that can't fulfill this strategy or outshoot Eldar.

I feel like armies are few and far between that can't pull off either MSU or Horde strategies.

Particularly because the other option is something like Flyrant spam, which Eldar can't do much about either.

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
1. Because they like the model. Done, sorted. Literally no argument you can come up with will convince me that that therefore means there's something wrong with that person.

You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?

Ask your wife how much she paid for that purse, or her haircut or the stupid thing hanging on the wall, etc.

140$ is chump change on the grand scale of things people paid for because it was pretty.

Hell, people in Africa starved just building the pyramids of Giza, and that doesn't even start to factor cost in.

the_scotsman wrote:

4) Even the scariest Eldar Warhost list is not unbeatable. My friend and I actually wanted to try a game against "The big scary list" which was a double CAD with 2x WKs with cannons, a mess of Scatterbikes, and Wraithguard in a wave serpent, and I took a pretty standard blobs-n-russes behind an Aegis Guard list with some tempestus support to nab Maelstrom objectives, and he took a lot of hurt really fast. He might have had better odds if he'd played it differently (He moved his WK's to cover/seize objectives turn 1 instead of heading straight towards me, which let me focus on destroying the Wraithguard turn 1, which was a significant advantage) but even so everything that was oh-so-spooky in the Eldar dex died to buffed-up lascannons and LR Battlecannons just fine. And before you say "but warhost" remember that Scatbikers and Wraithknights get no benefit from the warhost formation bonuses-we used CADs so we could get the D-scythe Wraithguards in a Serpent in there, this was intended to be the most broken Eldar list possible.

OP does not mean invincible, and the failure to understand this fact is consistent among Eldar codex apologists. Player skill, match ups, terrain/battlefield set ups, missions, and plain luck are all significant factors in determining the results of a match. To say a list is OP does not mean that it negates every other determinative element. Merely that the army accords a disproportionate advantage. Remember, the ultimate (though unachievable) goal is for two players of equal skill, playing equally strong lists of two different armies should both have an even chance of victory. A codex is OP if it upsets that conclusion.

Traditio wrote:
I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Let it go. You stated your opinion multiple times, and you are not winning any converts and firends with it. 40K is not an inexpensive hobby .You reak of hypocracy and elitism at this point.

Also, not everyone pays $140 for an IK. I have 5 IKs and I payed less than $300 total for them.

BTW, not only are they pretty, they have stats in this game I play, so I get hours of enjoyment, building, painting, and playing with my pretty toys.

LeperColony wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

4) Even the scariest Eldar Warhost list is not unbeatable. My friend and I actually wanted to try a game against "The big scary list" which was a double CAD with 2x WKs with cannons, a mess of Scatterbikes, and Wraithguard in a wave serpent, and I took a pretty standard blobs-n-russes behind an Aegis Guard list with some tempestus support to nab Maelstrom objectives, and he took a lot of hurt really fast. He might have had better odds if he'd played it differently (He moved his WK's to cover/seize objectives turn 1 instead of heading straight towards me, which let me focus on destroying the Wraithguard turn 1, which was a significant advantage) but even so everything that was oh-so-spooky in the Eldar dex died to buffed-up lascannons and LR Battlecannons just fine. And before you say "but warhost" remember that Scatbikers and Wraithknights get no benefit from the warhost formation bonuses-we used CADs so we could get the D-scythe Wraithguards in a Serpent in there, this was intended to be the most broken Eldar list possible.

OP does not mean invincible, and the failure to understand this fact is consistent among Eldar codex apologists. Player skill, match ups, terrain/battlefield set ups, missions, and plain luck are all significant factors in determining the results of a match. To say a list is OP does not mean that it negates every other determinative element. Merely that the army accords a disproportionate advantage. Remember, the ultimate (though unachievable) goal is for two players of equal skill, playing equally strong lists of two different armies should both have an even chance of victory. A codex is OP if it upsets that conclusion.

I'm saying that it does not, by its existence, upset that balance. A person playing Eldar and a person playing Any other army can have a good game because great, good, average and poor units exist in the Eldar codex.

If an Eldar player decides he wants to play at the most competitive level, then no, not all armies have an answer to that. In the same way that, if I show up with any competitive list (grav-superfriends, Adlance, Pentyrant) I will similarly invalidate other codexes. The only significant difference between the Eldar codex and any other competitive-list capable codex is that the Eldar Dex invalidates several other competitive codexes making it overpowered in that scene. Which, tbh, should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the history of people trying to make 40k a competitive game. Any time a list becomes supreme, people either play that or list-tailored hard counters that just beat that list (because it's all they need to beat to place in tournaments).

There is nothing as bad inherently in playing Eldar in a non-competitive meta as there is in a player wanting to play Knights in a non competitive meta.

There is nothing as bad competitively in playing Eldar as there was playing GK competitively in 5th and removing daemons from the game.

Therefore the Eldar codex is not the end of the world and you have no reason to refuse to play Eldar (or at least zero moral ground for doing so, you're just being a dick). If their list is too strong to have fun against, fine. I do the same thing when I want to play a casual game instead. But refusing a guy playing storm guardians and rangers because he's got a 3-man Windrider squad just makes you a whiny dick.

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

Yep, still gonna ask what kind of miniature tables this happened on, or what kind of giant games it happened it. There is 24" between the deployment zones. If you start at max distance, and then move up 6" you still won't even touch the enemy deployment zone. If you sit in a rhino and turbo as far as you can you're 1) making your warpquake MUCH smaller and 2) still only barely grazing the edge of the enemy deployment zone.

For you to carpet a whole standard table with warp quakes round 1, you would need interceptor squads. It's nothing under an Armageddon battle if you can cover the whole enemy deployment zone in interceptor squads.

Not to mention that army could never face ANYTHING else than demons, and would be pointless if it didn't get first round.

But remember that the old Warp Quake did not have a single point of origin. It was a 24" radius from any model. So a full 10 man Interceptor squad could daisy chain into a 15-20" line, and then each model kicks out the bubble.

 curran12 wrote:
But remember that the old Warp Quake did not have a single point of origin. It was a 24" radius from any model. So a full 10 man Interceptor squad could daisy chain into a 15-20" line, and then each model kicks out the bubble.

No, it was 12" from any model, making a 24" bubble.

Which can still do it.

Ok, so that's 30 interceptors to cover the enemy deployment zone
Then you need 30 on the center of the table, so you have 30 PAGK that run to cover that.
And 30 PAGK to cover your own deployment zone.
that's 600 points for the PAGK, but I can't for the life of me remember the price of three units of interceptors. So yeah, fair enough. If you know that you are facing Demons and ONLY demons and you know that you're getting first round, then yes, that would work.

edit: sorry, that's 1200 points for the PAGK. Made a miscalculation. It would have to be a big game.
I think the interceptors were about twice the price of PAGK so they would probably be around 1000-1200 points too.

 Purifier wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

Yep, still gonna ask what kind of miniature tables this happened on, or what kind of giant games it happened it. There is 24" between the deployment zones. If you start at max distance, and then move up 6" you still won't even touch the enemy deployment zone. If you sit in a rhino and turbo as far as you can you're 1) making your warpquake MUCH smaller and 2) still only barely grazing the edge of the enemy deployment zone.

For you to carpet a whole standard table with warp quakes round 1, you would need interceptor squads. It's nothing under an Armageddon battle if you can cover the whole enemy deployment zone in interceptor squads.

Not to mention that army could never face ANYTHING else than demons, and would be pointless if it didn't get first round.

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

 Xerics wrote:

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

Terminators didn't have Warp Quake, and couldn't drop until round 2 at the earliest anyway. I fail to see how this matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I actually realised you could do it by daisychaining them along both of the deployment zone borders. That would let you do it with only 30 PAGK.

It still relies completely on three factors:
1) You know you're facing nothing but demons. This is not an all comers list.
2) You get first round or you've lost.
3) You manage all 6 of your psychic tests, or you've lost.

Edit:
I'm still trying to find better ways to do this, and I realised your early projection that I built the whole thing on is fairly far off the optimal daisy chain.
with 12" in each direction, a group of 5 on 1" bases reaches 12+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+12=37", so with 2x5 of each type of unit, you can cover almost the whole table.

So now I'm with you, because this can be put into any TAC list without compromising it at all.

It basically means that if the GK player gets the first turn in that scenario (and managed all 4 Psychic tests. Each one having an 17% chance of failing,) he won the game, and if he didn't you can start playing and it'll be a decent fight, but doesn't automatically lose him the battle by any stretch.

It also rleied on the flawed local interrpretation that a DS Mishap result of "misplaced" was stilla deepstrike, and therefore they GK player could place you back into warp quake, causing another mishap.

So it wasnt an auto tabling, unless the GK player cheated and you agreed to go along with it.

 Purifier wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

Terminators didn't have Warp Quake, and couldn't drop until round 2 at the earliest anyway. I fail to see how this matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I actually realised you could do it by daisychaining them along both of the deployment zone borders. That would let you do it with only 30 PAGK.

It still relies completely on three factors:
1) You know you're facing nothing but demons. This is not an all comers list.
2) You get first round or you've lost.
3) You manage all 6 of your psychic tests, or you've lost.

Edit:
I'm still trying to find better ways to do this, and I realised your early projection that I built the whole thing on is fairly far off the optimal daisy chain.
with 12" in each direction, a group of 5 on 1" bases reaches 12+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+12=37", so with 2x5 of each type of unit, you can cover almost the whole table.

So now I'm with you, because this can be put into any TAC list without compromising it at all.

It basically means that if the GK player gets the first turn in that scenario (and managed all 4 Psychic tests. Each one having an 17% chance of failing,) he won the game, and if he didn't you can start playing and it'll be a decent fight, but doesn't automatically lose him the battle by any stretch.

You didn't have to cover the whole table, unless you really wanted to prove your supreme douchebaggery...

The thing was, Daemons only ever got to deploy 50% of their army on turn 1. 33% of the time, it would be the unwanted half, unless the Daemon player simply went for 100% mirrored waves.
The Grey Knights meanwhile got up to 100% of their army if they so chose.

While the auto-mishap bubbles where a 24" area from any single model in the squad, the Daemon player would also have to factor in being forced to deploy an additional 7" away from that bubble, in order to avoid potentially scattering into it.
Hence, that single squad effectively denied a monstrous 31" bubble of table to the Daemons player. For each and every single quake-capable unit. Spread out in a conga-line, it effectively gave you a buffer zone of about 30"x42" the Daemons were forced to avoid.

You didn't have to bring 30+ Warp Quake models. Even a single 10 man Strike Squad, deployed out in front of the GK battle line, would effectively push back the entire Daemon army to such an extent that the game was all but unwinnable due to:
1. Daemons, an army which relied heavily on the Assault phase to generate any real damage output, always being forced to wait a full turn before they could assault.
2. An assault based army that generally struggled to move more than 6"/turn outside of a bare handful of units, the majority of which where T3/4 with only a 5++.

Warp Quake made it very simple for the GK's to keep the Daemons at arms length all game and just shoot them off the table as they pleased. The only thing that even made it almost a game was if you took Fateweaver to help withstand the masses of wounds GK's could inflict each round with their insane amount of shooting.

Weren't they also able to scout through a GM strategy. that would give d3 units and extra 6" range on top of the normal 37"?

Makumba wrote:
Weren't they also able to scout through a GM strategy. that would give d3 units and extra 6" range on top of the normal 37"?

Yep.

Daemons vs. Grey Knights in 5th was the definition of a 'pointless exercise.'

Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but how can he have an 1850 point list with 2 revenant titans when they are 900 points a piece? Leaving 50 points for what other stuff?

Dugman wrote:
Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but how can he have an 1850 point list with 2 revenant titans when they are 900 points a piece? Leaving 50 points for what other stuff?

Unbound .

Who would expect to find anyone willing to play a pick up game against those 2 titans?

I want Traditio to come back, and share more of his thoughts on the two new books he read. Pretty please. I want to hear it all. Don't forget to italicize Latin words, I love that.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Smart folks use guns, drugs, and science wisely.

Are you trying to incite people or looking for a cheap plug for your politics?

Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

All Baneblades.

Not unbeatable, but just as cheesy and unfun as facing 2xRev Titans at 1850.

Zsolt wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

Ally with flesh Tearers, pop in a million squads of meltavet/flamer guards.

Very definition of a cheese list-not unbeatable, but extremely one dimensional, either you have what is needed to beat it or you stand no chance.

Just playing with a huge massive fortress is also similar.

We may be working with different definitions. For me cheese means effective/competitive/hard to beat/unbeatable/can beat anything/pain in the ass.

Spam/One dimensional doesn't mean cheese. Baneblade spam is none of these. Flesh Tearers aren't IG.

Ah. I always think of "Cheese Tactics" as something that you do to win that doesn't require any skill, like 'ha, I'll bring tons of this one kind of thing and if you don't have tons of things that counter that thing I auto-win', or 'I'll bring some kind of ludicrous alpha-strike type list so everything just comes down to how my reserve rolls pan out instead of us playing a real game.'

I wouldn't call a duo-titan list YOUR definition of cheese, though, because someone playing with a really powerful play-to-the-mission army (basically hyper-mobile MSU) is going to always win even though he can't scratch the titans. Or, someone could take mass melta/haywire and he's only got two models to kill.

It's just that the odds that someone brought that sort of a list are low, so the player bringing the spammy cheese list has the upper hand. Hence, my usual definition of 'cheese'.

Problem I've noticed is that lots of lists are just cheese because they can wipe out other lists with little to no effort.
Not to provoke people but maybe it's also because your list just isn't up to scratch either?
Not counting two revenant titans though, with a few exceptions not many armies would have much to deal with them effectively in a standard game.

the_scotsman wrote:

Zsolt wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

Ally with flesh Tearers, pop in a million squads of meltavet/flamer guards.

Very definition of a cheese list-not unbeatable, but extremely one dimensional, either you have what is needed to beat it or you stand no chance.

Just playing with a huge massive fortress is also similar.

So another words the way to get a good IG list is to play as few IG units as possible in your IG list. My cousin droped chaos because of something like that in 6th. When good chaos space marine armies had max 2 actual csm models in their 1500 builds.

....no, that's as many IG units as it is Flesh Tearers.

The best way to make an ig list is to take the most advantage out of their access to cheap plentiful special weaponry and objective secured. As an added bonus, cheap stealth also.

And the best way to do that is by combining with drop pods (the maximum number of FA drop pods in one detachment is the Flesh Tearers detachment) and dropping them preferably into cover on objectives.

I'd say the best IG list is Paskisher and Pal, Flesh Tearers HQ, 6 FA pods, 6 Melta Camo Vet squads. Points and models wise there's more IG than Flesh Tearers by a factor of 5-10. Also points wise, the Tearers are just pod bitches here.

why not play just marine army with drop pods then. more resilient better BS, and one doesn't have to buy 2-3 books to run it and worry if his local play field accepts mixing formations.

Well, I think the tournament scene is dying atm.
If the tourney special rules allow unbound and more than one superheavies, some players will accept this invitation.

Makumba wrote:
why not play just marine army with drop pods then. more resilient better BS, and one doesn't have to buy 2-3 books to run it and worry if his local play field accepts mixing formations.

Uh.

You mean 3+ armor as opposed to 3+ cover, 1/3 more expensive, same BS, no way to turn on ignores cover, and fewer melta guns?

Because with vets it's way better?

I don't get it, you mean if your group doesn't accept allies?

Traditio wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:I disagree. I think if you're going to bring up the 'people are starving' argument, you need to not buy anything non essential and donate all that money to charity, otherwise it's a very hypocritical thing to say. It's not the person who bought the Knights fault that people are starving. It's not as if that £95 would have made any measurable difference and they just bought a model instead. For all you know, they might donate £95 to charity for every Knight they buy. Get off your high horse.

I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Your entire argument consists of "if you are passionate about things there is something WRONG with you."

My troll sensors are going berserk.

the_scotsman wrote:

Makumba wrote:
why not play just marine army with drop pods then. more resilient better BS, and one doesn't have to buy 2-3 books to run it and worry if his local play field accepts mixing formations.

Uh.

You mean 3+ armor as opposed to 3+ cover, 1/3 more expensive, same BS, no way to turn on ignores cover, and fewer melta guns?

Because with vets it's way better?

I don't get it, you mean if your group doesn't accept allies?

I just don't want to buy 6 drop pods 30 euros each to have a viable IG army. I'm fine with adding some Inquisitors or a few low model count allied force multipliers, but 180 euros is a bit too much.

I can buy 2 wraithknights for that, go unbound and call it a competitive IG army...

Zsolt wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Makumba wrote:
why not play just marine army with drop pods then. more resilient better BS, and one doesn't have to buy 2-3 books to run it and worry if his local play field accepts mixing formations.

Uh.

You mean 3+ armor as opposed to 3+ cover, 1/3 more expensive, same BS, no way to turn on ignores cover, and fewer melta guns?

Because with vets it's way better?

I don't get it, you mean if your group doesn't accept allies?

I just don't want to buy 6 drop pods 30 euros each to have a viable IG army. I'm fine with adding some Inquisitors or a few low model count allied force multipliers, but 180 euros is a bit too much.

I can buy 2 wraithknights for that, go unbound and call it a competitive IG army...

Okay, then don't. There's just as much that's viable in Guard as there is in any non-Eldar/Necron army.

There's plenty of things you can do with guard. Ally in that Dark Angel character to give a full platoon 4++s, use fortifications to protect your HWS so you have cheap pskyerable/orderable lascannons. Guard is IoM, and the strength of pretty much every IoM army is its ability to combine with others. If you want purer guard, take a guard army with one Imperial Knight, that should give you melee protection and a good skyfire option with the new missiles.

Guard have CCS, Platoons, Vets, Chimeras, Leman Russes, Wyverns, FW stationary artillery, Vulture Gunships and Vendettas. That's as many or more solid units than every other mid/low tier army. They even have good tools to deal with Eldar Jetbikes and average tools to down wraithknights. That's more than most armies can say.