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I feel like armies are few and far between that can't pull off either MSU or Horde strategies.

Particularly because the other option is something like Flyrant spam, which Eldar can't do much about either.

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
1. Because they like the model. Done, sorted. Literally no argument you can come up with will convince me that that therefore means there's something wrong with that person.

You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?

Ask your wife how much she paid for that purse, or her haircut or the stupid thing hanging on the wall, etc.

140$ is chump change on the grand scale of things people paid for because it was pretty.

Hell, people in Africa starved just building the pyramids of Giza, and that doesn't even start to factor cost in.

the_scotsman wrote:

4) Even the scariest Eldar Warhost list is not unbeatable. My friend and I actually wanted to try a game against "The big scary list" which was a double CAD with 2x WKs with cannons, a mess of Scatterbikes, and Wraithguard in a wave serpent, and I took a pretty standard blobs-n-russes behind an Aegis Guard list with some tempestus support to nab Maelstrom objectives, and he took a lot of hurt really fast. He might have had better odds if he'd played it differently (He moved his WK's to cover/seize objectives turn 1 instead of heading straight towards me, which let me focus on destroying the Wraithguard turn 1, which was a significant advantage) but even so everything that was oh-so-spooky in the Eldar dex died to buffed-up lascannons and LR Battlecannons just fine. And before you say "but warhost" remember that Scatbikers and Wraithknights get no benefit from the warhost formation bonuses-we used CADs so we could get the D-scythe Wraithguards in a Serpent in there, this was intended to be the most broken Eldar list possible.

OP does not mean invincible, and the failure to understand this fact is consistent among Eldar codex apologists. Player skill, match ups, terrain/battlefield set ups, missions, and plain luck are all significant factors in determining the results of a match. To say a list is OP does not mean that it negates every other determinative element. Merely that the army accords a disproportionate advantage. Remember, the ultimate (though unachievable) goal is for two players of equal skill, playing equally strong lists of two different armies should both have an even chance of victory. A codex is OP if it upsets that conclusion.

Traditio wrote:
I'm just saying. If you have have $140 to waste on a plastic toy just because it looks cool, there's something seriously wrong here.

Let it go. You stated your opinion multiple times, and you are not winning any converts and firends with it. 40K is not an inexpensive hobby .You reak of hypocracy and elitism at this point.

Also, not everyone pays $140 for an IK. I have 5 IKs and I payed less than $300 total for them.

BTW, not only are they pretty, they have stats in this game I play, so I get hours of enjoyment, building, painting, and playing with my pretty toys.

LeperColony wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

4) Even the scariest Eldar Warhost list is not unbeatable. My friend and I actually wanted to try a game against "The big scary list" which was a double CAD with 2x WKs with cannons, a mess of Scatterbikes, and Wraithguard in a wave serpent, and I took a pretty standard blobs-n-russes behind an Aegis Guard list with some tempestus support to nab Maelstrom objectives, and he took a lot of hurt really fast. He might have had better odds if he'd played it differently (He moved his WK's to cover/seize objectives turn 1 instead of heading straight towards me, which let me focus on destroying the Wraithguard turn 1, which was a significant advantage) but even so everything that was oh-so-spooky in the Eldar dex died to buffed-up lascannons and LR Battlecannons just fine. And before you say "but warhost" remember that Scatbikers and Wraithknights get no benefit from the warhost formation bonuses-we used CADs so we could get the D-scythe Wraithguards in a Serpent in there, this was intended to be the most broken Eldar list possible.

OP does not mean invincible, and the failure to understand this fact is consistent among Eldar codex apologists. Player skill, match ups, terrain/battlefield set ups, missions, and plain luck are all significant factors in determining the results of a match. To say a list is OP does not mean that it negates every other determinative element. Merely that the army accords a disproportionate advantage. Remember, the ultimate (though unachievable) goal is for two players of equal skill, playing equally strong lists of two different armies should both have an even chance of victory. A codex is OP if it upsets that conclusion.

I'm saying that it does not, by its existence, upset that balance. A person playing Eldar and a person playing Any other army can have a good game because great, good, average and poor units exist in the Eldar codex.

If an Eldar player decides he wants to play at the most competitive level, then no, not all armies have an answer to that. In the same way that, if I show up with any competitive list (grav-superfriends, Adlance, Pentyrant) I will similarly invalidate other codexes. The only significant difference between the Eldar codex and any other competitive-list capable codex is that the Eldar Dex invalidates several other competitive codexes making it overpowered in that scene. Which, tbh, should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the history of people trying to make 40k a competitive game. Any time a list becomes supreme, people either play that or list-tailored hard counters that just beat that list (because it's all they need to beat to place in tournaments).

There is nothing as bad inherently in playing Eldar in a non-competitive meta as there is in a player wanting to play Knights in a non competitive meta.

There is nothing as bad competitively in playing Eldar as there was playing GK competitively in 5th and removing daemons from the game.

Therefore the Eldar codex is not the end of the world and you have no reason to refuse to play Eldar (or at least zero moral ground for doing so, you're just being a dick). If their list is too strong to have fun against, fine. I do the same thing when I want to play a casual game instead. But refusing a guy playing storm guardians and rangers because he's got a 3-man Windrider squad just makes you a whiny dick.

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

Yep, still gonna ask what kind of miniature tables this happened on, or what kind of giant games it happened it. There is 24" between the deployment zones. If you start at max distance, and then move up 6" you still won't even touch the enemy deployment zone. If you sit in a rhino and turbo as far as you can you're 1) making your warpquake MUCH smaller and 2) still only barely grazing the edge of the enemy deployment zone.

For you to carpet a whole standard table with warp quakes round 1, you would need interceptor squads. It's nothing under an Armageddon battle if you can cover the whole enemy deployment zone in interceptor squads.

Not to mention that army could never face ANYTHING else than demons, and would be pointless if it didn't get first round.

But remember that the old Warp Quake did not have a single point of origin. It was a 24" radius from any model. So a full 10 man Interceptor squad could daisy chain into a 15-20" line, and then each model kicks out the bubble.

 curran12 wrote:
But remember that the old Warp Quake did not have a single point of origin. It was a 24" radius from any model. So a full 10 man Interceptor squad could daisy chain into a 15-20" line, and then each model kicks out the bubble.

No, it was 12" from any model, making a 24" bubble.

Which can still do it.

Ok, so that's 30 interceptors to cover the enemy deployment zone
Then you need 30 on the center of the table, so you have 30 PAGK that run to cover that.
And 30 PAGK to cover your own deployment zone.
that's 600 points for the PAGK, but I can't for the life of me remember the price of three units of interceptors. So yeah, fair enough. If you know that you are facing Demons and ONLY demons and you know that you're getting first round, then yes, that would work.

edit: sorry, that's 1200 points for the PAGK. Made a miscalculation. It would have to be a big game.
I think the interceptors were about twice the price of PAGK so they would probably be around 1000-1200 points too.

 Purifier wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fairly sure he's talking about Warp Quake vs Demons.

What kind of miniature tables is he playing on?

Back in 5th when Grey Knights got revamped they could do warp quakes which made it so demons could not deploy in certain areas. The problem originated when there were so many warp quakes that demons had such a small deployment room that they got tabled turn 1 against dreadknights because they were only able to deploy a few units.

Yep, still gonna ask what kind of miniature tables this happened on, or what kind of giant games it happened it. There is 24" between the deployment zones. If you start at max distance, and then move up 6" you still won't even touch the enemy deployment zone. If you sit in a rhino and turbo as far as you can you're 1) making your warpquake MUCH smaller and 2) still only barely grazing the edge of the enemy deployment zone.

For you to carpet a whole standard table with warp quakes round 1, you would need interceptor squads. It's nothing under an Armageddon battle if you can cover the whole enemy deployment zone in interceptor squads.

Not to mention that army could never face ANYTHING else than demons, and would be pointless if it didn't get first round.

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

 Xerics wrote:

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

Terminators didn't have Warp Quake, and couldn't drop until round 2 at the earliest anyway. I fail to see how this matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I actually realised you could do it by daisychaining them along both of the deployment zone borders. That would let you do it with only 30 PAGK.

It still relies completely on three factors:
1) You know you're facing nothing but demons. This is not an all comers list.
2) You get first round or you've lost.
3) You manage all 6 of your psychic tests, or you've lost.

Edit:
I'm still trying to find better ways to do this, and I realised your early projection that I built the whole thing on is fairly far off the optimal daisy chain.
with 12" in each direction, a group of 5 on 1" bases reaches 12+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+12=37", so with 2x5 of each type of unit, you can cover almost the whole table.

So now I'm with you, because this can be put into any TAC list without compromising it at all.

It basically means that if the GK player gets the first turn in that scenario (and managed all 4 Psychic tests. Each one having an 17% chance of failing,) he won the game, and if he didn't you can start playing and it'll be a decent fight, but doesn't automatically lose him the battle by any stretch.

It also rleied on the flawed local interrpretation that a DS Mishap result of "misplaced" was stilla deepstrike, and therefore they GK player could place you back into warp quake, causing another mishap.

So it wasnt an auto tabling, unless the GK player cheated and you agreed to go along with it.

 Purifier wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Deep Striking terminators and their HQ choices allowed them some measure of mobility. With enough warpquakes you could only put your guys in certain areas in which the Grey knights player would strategcally place a Nemesis Dreadknight to wreck your stuff. It very much allowed for one sided board control by limiting where you could bring your reserves in. Daemons alwas deep struck units in from reserves in 5th. With their basic troop having warpquake it really invalidated the Daemons Codex completely.

Terminators didn't have Warp Quake, and couldn't drop until round 2 at the earliest anyway. I fail to see how this matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I actually realised you could do it by daisychaining them along both of the deployment zone borders. That would let you do it with only 30 PAGK.

It still relies completely on three factors:
1) You know you're facing nothing but demons. This is not an all comers list.
2) You get first round or you've lost.
3) You manage all 6 of your psychic tests, or you've lost.

Edit:
I'm still trying to find better ways to do this, and I realised your early projection that I built the whole thing on is fairly far off the optimal daisy chain.
with 12" in each direction, a group of 5 on 1" bases reaches 12+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+2+1+12=37", so with 2x5 of each type of unit, you can cover almost the whole table.

So now I'm with you, because this can be put into any TAC list without compromising it at all.

It basically means that if the GK player gets the first turn in that scenario (and managed all 4 Psychic tests. Each one having an 17% chance of failing,) he won the game, and if he didn't you can start playing and it'll be a decent fight, but doesn't automatically lose him the battle by any stretch.

You didn't have to cover the whole table, unless you really wanted to prove your supreme douchebaggery...

The thing was, Daemons only ever got to deploy 50% of their army on turn 1. 33% of the time, it would be the unwanted half, unless the Daemon player simply went for 100% mirrored waves.
The Grey Knights meanwhile got up to 100% of their army if they so chose.

While the auto-mishap bubbles where a 24" area from any single model in the squad, the Daemon player would also have to factor in being forced to deploy an additional 7" away from that bubble, in order to avoid potentially scattering into it.
Hence, that single squad effectively denied a monstrous 31" bubble of table to the Daemons player. For each and every single quake-capable unit. Spread out in a conga-line, it effectively gave you a buffer zone of about 30"x42" the Daemons were forced to avoid.

You didn't have to bring 30+ Warp Quake models. Even a single 10 man Strike Squad, deployed out in front of the GK battle line, would effectively push back the entire Daemon army to such an extent that the game was all but unwinnable due to:
1. Daemons, an army which relied heavily on the Assault phase to generate any real damage output, always being forced to wait a full turn before they could assault.
2. An assault based army that generally struggled to move more than 6"/turn outside of a bare handful of units, the majority of which where T3/4 with only a 5++.

Warp Quake made it very simple for the GK's to keep the Daemons at arms length all game and just shoot them off the table as they pleased. The only thing that even made it almost a game was if you took Fateweaver to help withstand the masses of wounds GK's could inflict each round with their insane amount of shooting.

Weren't they also able to scout through a GM strategy. that would give d3 units and extra 6" range on top of the normal 37"?

Makumba wrote:
Weren't they also able to scout through a GM strategy. that would give d3 units and extra 6" range on top of the normal 37"?

Yep.

Daemons vs. Grey Knights in 5th was the definition of a 'pointless exercise.'

Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but how can he have an 1850 point list with 2 revenant titans when they are 900 points a piece? Leaving 50 points for what other stuff?

Dugman wrote:
Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but how can he have an 1850 point list with 2 revenant titans when they are 900 points a piece? Leaving 50 points for what other stuff?

Unbound .

Who would expect to find anyone willing to play a pick up game against those 2 titans?

I want Traditio to come back, and share more of his thoughts on the two new books he read. Pretty please. I want to hear it all. Don't forget to italicize Latin words, I love that.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Smart folks use guns, drugs, and science wisely.

Are you trying to incite people or looking for a cheap plug for your politics?

Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

All Baneblades.

Not unbeatable, but just as cheesy and unfun as facing 2xRev Titans at 1850.

Zsolt wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

Ally with flesh Tearers, pop in a million squads of meltavet/flamer guards.

Very definition of a cheese list-not unbeatable, but extremely one dimensional, either you have what is needed to beat it or you stand no chance.

Just playing with a huge massive fortress is also similar.

We may be working with different definitions. For me cheese means effective/competitive/hard to beat/unbeatable/can beat anything/pain in the ass.

Spam/One dimensional doesn't mean cheese. Baneblade spam is none of these. Flesh Tearers aren't IG.

Ah. I always think of "Cheese Tactics" as something that you do to win that doesn't require any skill, like 'ha, I'll bring tons of this one kind of thing and if you don't have tons of things that counter that thing I auto-win', or 'I'll bring some kind of ludicrous alpha-strike type list so everything just comes down to how my reserve rolls pan out instead of us playing a real game.'

I wouldn't call a duo-titan list YOUR definition of cheese, though, because someone playing with a really powerful play-to-the-mission army (basically hyper-mobile MSU) is going to always win even though he can't scratch the titans. Or, someone could take mass melta/haywire and he's only got two models to kill.

It's just that the odds that someone brought that sort of a list are low, so the player bringing the spammy cheese list has the upper hand. Hence, my usual definition of 'cheese'.

Problem I've noticed is that lots of lists are just cheese because they can wipe out other lists with little to no effort.
Not to provoke people but maybe it's also because your list just isn't up to scratch either?
Not counting two revenant titans though, with a few exceptions not many armies would have much to deal with them effectively in a standard game.

the_scotsman wrote:

Zsolt wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Any army has the cheese list. Just ask him to bring something more casual. Or bring some of your own cheese to the table.

Can you give me a cheese list for IG? 1000, 1500, 1850, 2000, 3000 pts please.

Ally with flesh Tearers, pop in a million squads of meltavet/flamer guards.

Very definition of a cheese list-not unbeatable, but extremely one dimensional, either you have what is needed to beat it or you stand no chance.

Just playing with a huge massive fortress is also similar.

So another words the way to get a good IG list is to play as few IG units as possible in your IG list. My cousin droped chaos because of something like that in 6th. When good chaos space marine armies had max 2 actual csm models in their 1500 builds.