Most of the Star Trek equivalent of "Expanded Universe" was never really considered any sort of "canon" IIRC, and IIRC it doesn't play into the newer movies either way really.
As for Star Wars, well, the prequels already borked a bunch of the EU, and the EU got really absurd in a lot of places, if it gets flushed and started over, I wouldn't be all that upset. From what previews we've seen, I don't think the EU is going to be adhered to much at all.
Hell no. JJ Abrams pooped all over what made Star Trek different from most sci-fi and made it generic sci-fi with lazers and Aliens.
Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
That's not what Disney said.
And Abrams' ST was enjoyable to everyone I know personally. So what do I care if a couple people online throw a pissy fit over his movies? Everyone I know in person loved them.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And everyone loves Micheal Bay movies I know....
Doesnt mean its good. It gakked all over what star trek is supposed to be about
Reallllllyyyyy....and what did he get wrong? Kirk banged a green alien chick. Check. Kirk doesn't play by the rules. Check. Spock uses logic. Check. Bones is emotional. Check. Exploration took place. Check. The Enterprise rescued the Federation. Check. They boldly went where no man had gone before? Check-an alternate timeline.
Yup. Totally destroyed "real Star Trek". Right.
Oh, whoops. Didn't have terrible dialogue when written by Shatner. My bad! New Trek sucks because acting.
No, it suck because star trek isnt all PEW PEW LAZERS and friggin sword fights. Its alot more morality, alot more slow paced and alot more intelligent.
I have not yet seen a Star Trek movie without the photon torpedoes being fired off. And while not a sword fight per say, a Klingon killed Kirk's son Marcus with a blade. So...one quick minute long saber duel from Harold/Sulu and the use of a weapon that gets used in every ST movie is enough to ruin the new ones? Okay...I'm glad we cleared THAT terrible mistake up!
The first new one was about Kirk overcoming himself and the limitations he put on himself after his mom went to crap from losing Thor, using original thought instead of blindly following the rules of Starfleet (which is exactly what Kirk has always and will always do in every iteration). Honestly, calling the first of the new ST movies non-intelligent really makes it sound like you didn't get it.
And slow paced? The #1 Star Trek movie was Wrath of Khan: in the first few minutes, Chekov becomes mind controlled along with his captain, who shortly thereafter kills himself to prevent himself from killing Kirk. This being after a couple panic induced moments of realizing "Oh gak, this is where Khan landed! feth me! Run!"
I will grant that Khan from ST:WoK was more menacing than the new Cumber-Khan. But that's about all.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Its alot more morality, alot more slow paced and alot more intelligent.
Did you actually watch the more recent Star Trek series/movies? Star Trek hasn't been about anything besides generic scifi and milking the cash cow for a long time.
You know, his treatment of Star Trek is what makes me so confident he will do an awesome job with The Force Awakens. He brought that much fun and zest into Star Trek, and filled it with snappy quips, cheerful action shootups and a round, world destroying object. Frankly, in hindsight it looks like an audition for Star Wars.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
That's not what Disney said.
Not at all. In fact Star Wars Rebels has officially blessed The Clone Wars as canon with the introduction of Ahsoka Tano into it (apparently she's a Rebellion cell operator, which is seven different kinds of awesome if you're a fan of the Clone Warss). At Star Wars Weekend two weeks ago (which i was at ! woot!) James Arnold Taylor (obi wants voice) and TIya Sicar (Sabine's) also disclosed that Captain Rex is making a comeback in Rebels as well (and we were shown footage in a symposium). So that's basically the whole-hog blessing of the entire Clone Wars story lines by Disney (who is the operator behind Star Wars Rebels).
So Disney has not pooped all over the EU, and they certainly never said that.
Though i wouldn't be surprised if some things exit stage left and others are entered into canon.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And everyone loves Micheal Bay movies I know....
Doesnt mean its good. It gakked all over what star trek is supposed to be about
I have to agree here.
As for the movies themselves, the first one was fun. the second one sucked old man camel balls.
Watch Wrath of Khan and see what the real movie was like.
Haight wrote: Not at all. In fact Star Wars Rebels has officially blessed The Clone Wars as canon with the introduction of Ahsoka Tano into it (apparently she's a Rebellion cell operator,
Disney said from day 1 that Star Wars: The Clone Wars was canon, along with the 6 films, Star Wars: Rebels, and the new line of novels. What wasn't canon is Star Wars: Clone Wars (the Gendy series), but even that is debatable given that the events in that series lead directly into Revenge of the Sith. (e.g., Grievous's chest getting crushed and Palpatine getting "abducted")
Really, it's the old novels and comics that are out, which is fine. The best of those elements will make their way back into the series at some point, the worst of it will die an ignoble death in "Legends" land. Anything that removes Karen Travis and her mando-fetish from the world is A-Okay in my book.
As always, my advice is to treat the films as a slab of mindless entertainment, something to pass away a few hours.
When subjected to critical analysis, Star Wars sinks like the Titanic, but it's still fun to watch.
Star Trek was a show of its time - the bright optimism of the 1960s that envisioned a brighter future - hence the multi-ethnic cast and moral driven story lines. Sadly, the Star Trek vision has been replaced by the cynicism of our times.
As a lover of Star Trek growing up (mostly Next Generation and DS9) I absolutely love what Abrams did with Star Trek. Him being onboard is the only reason I'll go see the new Star Wars in theatres.
And I second that Lucas did far worse to the expanded universe in the prequels than Disney/Abrams is likely to do.
Hulksmash wrote: As a lover of Star Trek growing up (mostly Next Generation and DS9) I absolutely love what Abrams did with Star Trek. Him being onboard is the only reason I'll go see the new Star Wars in theatres.
And I second that Lucas did far worse to the expanded universe in the prequels than Disney/Abrams is likely to do.
I agree that Lucas made a mess of things, but at the end of the day, it was his property to do with as he saw fit.
Logically, scrapping the EU makes sense, but I feel sorry for people who invested into it through books, games, comics etc
Oh it was. Just doesn't mean I have to like that he basically shat on Zhan's trilogy which breathed new life into the literary EU. I realize there is a ton of bad out there in the EU but at least being respectful to some source material that helped print you money for over a decade would have been nice.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
That's not what Disney said.
And Abrams' ST was enjoyable to everyone I know personally. So what do I care if a couple people online throw a pissy fit over his movies? Everyone I know in person loved them.
It was enjoyable in the sense that they were good films, but they were terrible Star Trek films (in the sense that they entirely missed the point of what Star Trek is. Compared to actual Star Trek films... well they were better than anything produced since The Undiscovered Country at least, so theres that), but they would have been outstanding Star Wars films.
Abrams's first Trek film was okay. Its excellent pacing really covers a lot of its flaws on the first viewing. But the villain was completely uninteresting, the destruction of Vulcan was painfully disproportionate, and including Leonard Nimoy felt more like parody than connection or homage. Still, there are some great moments, like when Pike dares Kirk to do better than his dad. The second one falls way short, both of its slightly better than average predecessor and the immensely superior film after which it is patterned. Cumberbatch is terribly miscast in a role written by someone who clearly did not understand or care about the character. The crew's interpersonal dynamic, the great strength of TOS, feels no more special than anything in a generic network drama. I was pretty into the movie the first time I saw it. I went back to the theater the next day and fell asleep.
Manchu wrote: Abrams's first Trek film was okay. Its excellent pacing really covers a lot of its flaws on the first viewing. But the villain was completely uninteresting, the destruction of Vulcan was painfully disproportionate, and including Leonard Nimoy felt more like parody than connection or homage. Still, there are some great moments, like when Pike dares Kirk to do better than his dad. The second one falls way short, both of its slightly better than average successor and the immensely superior film after which it is patterned. Cumberbatch is terribly miscast in a role written by someone who clearly did not understand or care about the character. The crew's interpersonal dynamic, the great strength of TOS, feels no more special than anything in a generic network drama. I was pretty into the movie the first time I saw it. I went back to the theater the next day and fell asleep.
Manchu wrote: Abrams's first Trek film was okay. Its excellent pacing really covers a lot of its flaws on the first viewing. But the villain was completely uninteresting, the destruction of Vulcan was painfully disproportionate, and including Leonard Nimoy felt more like parody than connection or homage. Still, there are some great moments, like when Pike dares Kirk to do better than his dad. The second one falls way short, both of its slightly better than average successor and the immensely superior film after which it is patterned. Cumberbatch is terribly miscast in a role written by someone who clearly did not understand or care about the character. The crew's interpersonal dynamic, the great strength of TOS, feels no more special than anything in a generic network drama. I was pretty into the movie the first time I saw it. I went back to the theater the next day and fell asleep.
An excellent summary.
Agreed. The first one is decent enough, if still worse than most of the original/TNG films, and ultimately, got the point/feel/style right. I could have done without Nimoy and any of the Spock/Uhura drama.
Into Darkness, on the other hand, was a complete mess. Khan should never have been redone, the focus on action over story/theme was off, the crew failed to develop in any meaningful direction, and the writing was just poor, for a Trek movie or otherwise. The final insult to injury came when they shoehorned in a broken redux of the most iconic, touching and powerful scenes in Star Trek history for... Well, I'm still not sure what for.
To put it in Star Wars terms, imagine a remake of Empire Strikes Back where Luke, having bested Vader in combat, revealed that he was Vader's son,, and then asked him "search your feelings, you know it to be true."
Paradigm wrote: To put it in Star Wars terms, imagine a remake of Empire Strikes Back where Luke, having bested Vader in combat, revealed that he was Vader's son,, and then asked him "search your feelings, you know it to be true."
I laugh but you've seriously got me a bit worried, too.
I think "what Star Trek is supposed to be" largely depends on what series (and I think you can consider the movies with the original cast as a series on its own) you consider to be the definitive ST. Because they were all quite different.
Roddenberry originally pitched ST as a western in space, IIRC. And sure, the original series dealt with social issues, etc. But it was an action/adventure show at its heart. Hell, just about every fight sequence in series history looked like a western barroom brawl.
It occurs to me that Abrams' ST actually had a barroom brawl. And a lot of other elements and tonal qualities that reminded me of the original series, as a guy who was raised on that series. It probably doesn't remind people of TNG, and maybe that's an issue for those who gravitate toward THAT series.
This debate regarding Abrams' ST films reminds me a lot of the debate over Man of Steel. "That wasn't Superman!" "Superman wouldn't do that!" Etc. But which Superman and when?
And when you peel it all apart, you realize that the critics don't even fully agree on what "is" and "isn't." They just agree that something doesn't match their individual visions. And this is completely inevitable for characters/settings/stories/etc. that have been different things at different times.
I wasn't crazy about Into Darkness either, but I didn't hate it with the ferocity that some seem to have. Exchange Cumberbatch for a more convincingly menacing actor, remove the reactor scene and stick more closely to a 'Space Seed'-inspired story, and suddenly the movie jumps up an entire letter grade, IMO. But I like that Abrams took some risks and was willing to break eggs in his films, because the original series did those things too.
Doing a beat-by-beat reimagineering of the ST film most consider the best is certainly risky but not in any way similar to the kind of risks TOS took. It's the risk of falling way short of something that was good because you want to leverage the marketability of that thing having been good. By contrast, TOS dared to be original.
Although I enjoyed Timothy Zahn's stab at it, I've no real interest in the EU. It was all too reverential of the OST and obsessed with seeing what the characters did next, when really the films had told their story.
I like that we're picking up with a new crowd in the Force Awakens and hope that the older cast don't have too large a role to play as it will distract from the fresh start.
I don't think JJ Abrams ruined ST or anything like that. In fact he made his films in an alternate reality just to avoid doing that. As for him not capturing the spirit of ST, well there is basically two Star Treks: The TV shows which deal with exploring what it means to be human and and moral conundrums and whatnot and the movies which are more about action and explosions. After the success of Wrath of Khan most of the movies involve there being a bad guy and the heroes defeating him. So JJ Abrams movies are in line with that.
Unfortunately, from what I've heard the next ST movie is going to be even more explosion filled than JJ Abrams movies. I like explosions as much as the next guy but we need to tone it done a bit and get back to some Star Trekking.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I don't think JJ Abrams ruined ST or anything like that. In fact he made his films in an alternate reality just to avoid doing that. As for him not capturing the spirit of ST, well there is basically two Star Treks: The TV shows which deal with exploring what it means to be human and and moral conundrums and whatnot and the movies which are more about action and explosions. After the success of Wrath of Khan most of the movies involve there being a bad guy and the heroes defeating him. So JJ Abrams movies are in line with that.
Unfortunately, from what I've heard the next ST movie is going to be even more explosion filled than JJ Abrams movies. I like explosions as much as the next guy but we need to tone it done a bit and get back to some Star Trekking.
Haight wrote: Not at all. In fact Star Wars Rebels has officially blessed The Clone Wars as canon with the introduction of Ahsoka Tano into it (apparently she's a Rebellion cell operator,
Disney said from day 1 that Star Wars: The Clone Wars was canon, along with the 6 films, Star Wars: Rebels, and the new line of novels. What wasn't canon is Star Wars: Clone Wars (the Gendy series), but even that is debatable given that the events in that series lead directly into Revenge of the Sith. (e.g., Grievous's chest getting crushed and Palpatine getting "abducted")
Really, it's the old novels and comics that are out, which is fine. The best of those elements will make their way back into the series at some point, the worst of it will die an ignoble death in "Legends" land. Anything that removes Karen Travis and her mando-fetish from the world is A-Okay in my book.
Fair - I had never heard that personally, so i was happy to see references to the Clone Wars in Rebels which is official, in the flesh blessing it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
No matter how many times you say that, it will never be true.
It was the LUCASFILM STORY GROUP (pre-disney buy-out) and it was NEVER "canon" anyway (well, not "G-canon", the only one that counted). Yes, there were some good stories, but there were a lot of bad and iffy ones.
Which is not to say that it can't BECOME canon.
Sienar fleet systems WAS EU. It was created for the old rpg. That game had a "writer's bible" that went on to become the bible FOR the EU. SFS became canon when used in Rebels. Other elements have also become canon. Like Coruscant. First used BY Tim Zahn. It became canon when EP1 used it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
No matter how many times you say that, it will never be true.
It was the LUCASFILM STORY GROUP (pre-disney buy-out) and it was NEVER "canon" anyway (well, not "G-canon", the only one that counted). Yes, there were some good stories, but there were a lot of bad and iffy ones.
Which is not to say that it can't BECOME canon.
Sienar fleet systems WAS EU. It was created for the old rpg. That game had a "writer's bible" that went on to become the bible FOR the EU. SFS became canon when used in Rebels. Other elements have also become canon. Like Coruscant. First used BY Tim Zahn. It became canon when EP1 used it.
And the Outrider which appeared in the SE of A New Hope and Aayla Secura, who was created for the EU but ended up being included in Attack of the Clones.
Thank you for point out that there are different levels of canon in Star Wars, a fact that most people who bitch about "Disney killed the EU!" don't really seem to understand.
G-canon always has and always will overrule all other canon materials, including C-canon (all the books, comics, games, etc.). Also, sidenote: the Lucasfilm Story Group was formed in 2013, after the 2012 purchase of Lucasfilm.
Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
I think more than the Zahn books are positive parts of the EU. The Rogue and Wraith squadron books especially are pretty dang good, without barely a lick of the original characters to make them work. Awesome space battles and dogfights.
Now, ok, there were a couple of books with rage zombies...........which were definitely an.. interesting ..angle to take, even if not a good one.
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence...
And reconstituted them as an unholy amalgamation, an abomination not fit for the light of day. And the writing was so lazy they had old Spock show up with spoilers to help the crew along.
Top left of the picture. This is the new version of the scene where Luke, Ben, and droids enter Mos Eisley.
You fool! You made the mistake of using the "remastered" versions of the OT in a Star Wars thread, now you'll get torn apart by thousands of angry nerds.
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
No, all the other Star Trek stuff still exists as the main timeline. So the Abrams-verse is like another parallel dimension. I know it doesn't really make sense but you have to use some fancy Star Trek quantum space logic.
At the very least that will work in his favor. He's not remaking stuff that happened, its something totally new and fresh. So we won't have any sacrilegious desecration like Into Darkness pulled on Wrath of Khan.
I liked it too, as a stand alone movie. But it didn't feel like Star Trek, just like the first movie didn't either. And it was a desecration on Wrath of Khan, which is just wrong.
Its like how the Eragon movie was a decent movie, but a terrible rendition of the book.
Grey Templar wrote: I liked it too, as a stand alone movie. But it didn't feel like Star Trek, just like the first movie didn't either. And it was a desecration on Wrath of Khan, which is just wrong.
Its like how the Eragon movie was a decent movie, but a terrible rendition of the book.
Grey Templar wrote: I liked it too, as a stand alone movie. But it didn't feel like Star Trek, just like the first movie didn't either. And it was a desecration on Wrath of Khan, which is just wrong.
Its like how the Eragon movie was a decent movie, but a terrible rendition of the book.
But....those books were terrible, too....
I wouldn't say terrible, just a little meh. But the movie managed to take a meh but ok story and do terrible things to it.
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
No, all the other Star Trek stuff still exists as the main timeline. So the Abrams-verse is like another parallel dimension. I know it doesn't really make sense but you have to use some fancy Star Trek quantum space logic.
No.
Actually - whatever?
It exists in a timeline that we'll never see again, so it might as well be gone forever...
I'm actually kinda ok with the passing of the torch from the star wars expanded universe.
Heck, in my mind, the EU ended with 'Vision of the Future' anyhow. That was as good a footnote on the universe as any. (And no moons were dropped on anyone, either).
In saying that... I really do want to see new stories in the Episode 7 universe whether there is a blue skinned, red eyed Imperial Admiral that is an evil Sherlock Holmes in space.
If they can take and pick the best parts of the EU and insert them into new, yet somewhat familiar ways in the new Star Wars movies, I'm all for it.
Actually, that sounds kind of familiar. Wasn't there some other thing that Disney were involved in that took a vast array of many decades worth of alternative and contradictory storylines and distilled them down, taking the best elements from all of these into a single chunk that'd appeal to mass audiences?
Compel wrote: Actually, that sounds kind of familiar. Wasn't there some other thing that Disney were involved in that took a vast array of many decades worth of alternative and contradictory storylines and distilled them down, taking the best elements from all of these into a single chunk that'd appeal to mass audiences?
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
No, all the other Star Trek stuff still exists as the main timeline. So the Abrams-verse is like another parallel dimension. I know it doesn't really make sense but you have to use some fancy Star Trek quantum space logic.
No.
Actually - whatever?
It exists in a timeline that we'll never see again, so it might as well be gone forever...
Yes. It's actually called the "AR" for alternate reality. As for never seeing the prime reality again: who can say? Maybe we will and maybe we won't but the success of the JJ Abrams movies didn't decrease the likelihood we will. Quite the opposite IMO. For the people that hate those movies don't forget Star Trek was well and truly dead when they were made. I'd rather have these two movies than absolutely nothing at all.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Yes. It's actually called the "AR" for alternate reality. As for never seeing the prime reality again: who can say? Maybe we will and maybe we won't but the success of the JJ Abrams movies didn't decrease the likelihood we will. Quite the opposite IMO. For the people that hate those movies don't forget Star Trek was well and truly dead when they were made. I'd rather have these two movies than absolutely nothing at all.
That, and the original movies, series and books still exist. It's not like you can't watch them or read them now that the universe has been reset.
Same applies to the Star Wars EU... I have almost all of the EU novels, and as bad as some of them are, and as silly and convoluted as the universe became, I'll continue to re-read them long after Episode 7 and beyond have been released. A reboot doesn't invalidate what came before... it just launches a new series of stories in a similar setting. I can enjoy a universe that includes the New Republic and a universe that doesn't at the same time. It's all just more Star Wars, in my book, and not really any different to all of the different iterations of Batman, or King Kong, or anything else that has been interpreted in different ways by different story tellers.
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
No, all the other Star Trek stuff still exists as the main timeline. So the Abrams-verse is like another parallel dimension. I know it doesn't really make sense but you have to use some fancy Star Trek quantum space logic.
No.
Actually - whatever?
It exists in a timeline that we'll never see again, so it might as well be gone forever...
Yes. It's actually called the "AR" for alternate reality. As for never seeing the prime reality again: who can say? Maybe we will and maybe we won't but the success of the JJ Abrams movies didn't decrease the likelihood we will. Quite the opposite IMO. For the people that hate those movies don't forget Star Trek was well and truly dead when they were made. I'd rather have these two movies than absolutely nothing at all.
No.
I'm pretty sure all the old Star Trek stuff is now "AR" and JJ's in what we're getting for the foreseeable future - and I'm OK with that.
As for Star Wars?
I never followed much of the EU, and from what I can tell...I'm not missing much?
Most of the world only thinks of the movies as 'canon' and maybe the cartoons too - if they think about 'canon' at all.
Manchu wrote: Let's just hope that the rumor is true that his Star Trek suffered thanks to his heart belonging to Star Wars.
It does seem like star wars is more his thing I think he will do well with it.
He did change the star trek MO, its not what I would call the original intent of Roddenberry, but its entertaining and fun nonetheless.
It's worth pointing out that Abrams did say that, when he first started with Star Trek, he told the rest of the crew that he wanted to see what lessons Star Trek could learn from Star Wars. So, it may be interesting to see if he takes the same approach with Star Wars (what can SW learn from ST).
I wasn't crazy about Into Darkness either, but I didn't hate it with the ferocity that some seem to have. Exchange Cumberbatch for a more convincingly menacing actor, remove the reactor scene and stick more closely to a 'Space Seed'-inspired story, and suddenly the movie jumps up an entire letter grade, IMO. But I like that Abrams took some risks and was willing to break eggs in his films, because the original series did those things too.
Let me start with, I actually really liked Into Darkness.
That said, IMHO, when I'm sitting here typing it, looking back on what I saw in it, I think it actually may have been better served as being two separate movies. The "first" movie, being "ST: Into Darkness" would be the whole 'sink the dreadnought' story, with the big reveal being at the end the source of the knowledge behind such a devastating "non-Federation" ship. That revelation (being Khan in an alternate timeline) would lead into "Nu-ST 3: now with more lense flares" where nu-Kirk and crew would come across the Botany Bay crash site and the new rebooted alternate timeline story of RoK.
My only problem with Into Darkness is that Cumberbatch made for a great genetically modified superhuman villain, but not a great Khan. He should have just been Khan's second-in-command, with Khan to be revealed later.
I somewhat fear the same might happen with his work on SW7: Trying to recapture some of the magic from the original, but going just a bit too far with it.
Alpharius wrote: Abrams' STAR TREK was also fairly ballsy in that in essentially erased ALL previous STAR TREK TV shows and movies from existence - they all never happened now!
No, all the other Star Trek stuff still exists as the main timeline. So the Abrams-verse is like another parallel dimension. I know it doesn't really make sense but you have to use some fancy Star Trek quantum space logic.
No.
Actually - whatever?
It exists in a timeline that we'll never see again, so it might as well be gone forever...
Yes. It's actually called the "AR" for alternate reality. As for never seeing the prime reality again: who can say? Maybe we will and maybe we won't but the success of the JJ Abrams movies didn't decrease the likelihood we will. Quite the opposite IMO. For the people that hate those movies don't forget Star Trek was well and truly dead when they were made. I'd rather have these two movies than absolutely nothing at all.
No.
I'm pretty sure all the old Star Trek stuff is now "AR" and JJ's in what we're getting for the foreseeable future - and I'm OK with that.
"The alternate reality runs parallel to the prime reality as a new quantum reality. The prime reality is where many of the events seen in the Star Trek universe have occurred and, according to Star Trek writers Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci, their film allows the prime reality to continue. ["
It's ok Alpharius, I know you're just trying to be contrarian. You can't help it.
As I recall, he has officially been declared not to have died in the pit due to his presence in the upcoming Battlefront game's battles which are set after RotJ. IIRC he is also getting his own spinoff movie.
Tannhauser42 wrote: My only problem with Into Darkness is that Cumberbatch made for a great genetically modified superhuman villain, but not a great Khan.
My issue with Cumberbatch is that he lacked physical presence. Skull crushing strength doesn't come from a pencil thin body, genetically modified or no. I had similar issues with Quinto ripping pieces off a spaceship with his bare hands. I think Abrams will have an easier time getting away with that sort of thing in the Star Wars universe due to the existence of The Force, and it's ability to let Yoda lift X-Wings.
There are a few great SWEU books, but there is a LOT of crap.
Like the Sun crusher and giant space otters as well as centaurs. If there is a reason to scrap the EU it is that, let the little bit of good had to die with the bad.
Sacrifices have to be made people.
That said, didn't Disney say they were going to release a whole new series of novels to work around the films and be super duper official canon?
I would love to see dinsney make a star wars animation movie with the high quality art and motion of their animated films.... without the dozen or so songs...
Like the Sun crusher and giant space otters as well as centaurs. If there is a reason to scrap the EU it is that, let the little bit of good had to die with the bad.
And the Yuuzhan Vong, Hutt Jedi, and all super-weapons ever introduced into the EU.
Yeah, it was covered more in the books than the show, although there was some initial disagreement amongst authors as to whether Spock had normal Vulcan strength or not... At least one of the early novels described him as having done poorly at physical stuff...
All of which is getting a little off track, here...
Vulcans are much stronger than humans, live longer, are more intelligent etc. They're pretty much better in everyway, they even have pointy ears like a space elf. However, humans usually surpass them because of the humans-are-special trope. In Into Darkness Spock was getting emotional because of his half human side and was basically hulking out. So even there we can see his special humanness prevailing.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Vulcans are much stronger than humans, live longer, are more intelligent etc. They're pretty much better in everyway, they even have pointy ears like a space elf.
And Worf is apparently a badass, but gets his ass kicked all the time; unlike Riker. Most of what establishes alien races in the Trek Universe as being physically superior to humans are statements to that effect, not demonstrations. I think this is primarily due to Trek canon being based on a show rather than a series of movies.
However, humans usually surpass them because of the humans-are-special trope. In Into Darkness Spock was getting emotional because of his half human side and was basically hulking out. So even there we can see his special humanness prevailing.
He only won the fight because Uhura helped, so the two humans settled the matter. And, to my understanding, Vulcans are very emotional; they merely hide their emotions due to the teachings of Surak.
Regardless, Star Wars has the advantage of physical capacity being boosted by The Force, Star Trek doesn't.
The alternate reality was the new reality created when the temporal incursion of the Narada from the year 2387 disrupted the time continuum.
And for the last time, since we really should stay on topic in here about Star Wars!
Anyway, there's NO WAY JJ will make worse movies than GL did, so I am quite excited by the prospect of Episodes VII, VIII and IX!
I hope Boba Fett is officially out of the Sarlacc pit and at least in Ep. VIII!
Have an exalt for the Fett comment (and the Mod-esque "Stay on Target", too!).
Though... Fett would be in his 60's now, maybe even 70's. Fett's age has always been relatively indeterminate... i sort of follow the paths that he's slightly older than Solo myself, but that's opinion.
Is it realistic to think that someone would still be an utter badass into their 60's bounty hunting ? Or maybe the armor (and legend!) has been passed on. Or there's cybernetics like luke's hand / vaders body, etc.... but in any event, agreed. I am really hoping that Fett makes an appearance in the new movies and is finally given some movie screen badass air time.
Because... despite his awesome air of mystery and iconography, in the 6 movies, Fett doesn't inspire much fear at all. And listen i'm a Fett fan, i love him (like most other SW nerds do), but his cult of personality is largely due to the extended universe, and not much to do with the 6 movies. So i really hope they do some justice to the legend. They'd be stupid not to - Fett is a merchandising machine.
Hulksmash wrote: As a lover of Star Trek growing up (mostly Next Generation and DS9) I absolutely love what Abrams did with Star Trek. Him being onboard is the only reason I'll go see the new Star Wars in theatres.
And I second that Lucas did far worse to the expanded universe in the prequels than Disney/Abrams is likely to do.
I agree that Lucas made a mess of things, but at the end of the day, it was his property to do with as he saw fit.
Logically, scrapping the EU makes sense, but I feel sorry for people who invested into it through books, games, comics etc
Yeah, I'm a next-gen man myself (hell, I cherish a pic I got taken with Patrick Stewart last year at a convention), enjoyed the original series on reruns, have sat through a good portion of the other 3 (DS9 is fine, Voyager is bad, Enterprise is uggggh), and I found the reboot movies to be generally fun flicks. Looking forward to the third. I will say I actually kind of liked some of the changes (including the infamous final scene, even with its rapid fire wrap up). As an alternate universe it was interesting to play with things ending basically the same, but with a twist. Also we got a great bit with OG Spock being all "oh, I vowed not to tell about my experiences, don't want to contaminate things... but seriously feth that guy, here's everything from our run ins, good luck."
As for Star Trek, it is *entirely* reasonable to look at the fething hundreds of novels and shows and games and comics and whatnot and say "look, guys, we are NOT going be bound in a tarpit of trying to cover every damned base here." There is just so much SW gak out there I'm not sure it's possible to make a movie that is recognizably Star Wars without contradicting something in there, so I took the general sentiment to be 'it is what it is, if you feel the need to nitpick nonsense, don't expect us to cry over it'.
That said, if they have a blue skinned/red eyed/black haired alien in a crisp white uniform in the background somewhere, with a simmering red head alongside him and a tiny vicious alien acting as a bodyguard, I'll be immeasurably happy.
Not getting bogged down in the EU is one thing, but let's not get too crazy here.
... Timothy Zahn, feth yeah!
Compel wrote: In saying that... I really do want to see new stories in the Episode 7 universe whether there is a blue skinned, red eyed Imperial Admiral that is an evil Sherlock Holmes in space.
Flashman wrote: all too reverential of the OST and obsessed with seeing what the characters did next
Very fair point, that. It did start to feel like the whole galaxy revolved around less than a dozen people.
Let's not overlook people coming up with elaborate quadrilogy backstories for *every damned person in the Cantina*. (only minor hyperbole present and we all know it)
I get your point about The Usual Suspects being just everywhere, all the time, but man, it does get a bit out of hand even without them as well.
Let's be honest, the new Star Wars film could be a steaming pile of brown stuff, but millions will still watch it, and the merchandise sales will make Disney very happy, which at the end of the day, is all that matters for them. I hope it's a good film, but I'm getting flashbacks of TPM. I hope I'm proved wrong.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Let's be honest, the new Star Wars film could be a steaming pile of brown stuff, but millions will still watch it
Kind of like the originals?
*runs*
Never been a huge fan of the Star Wars films - they suffer from the same thing that most films involving GL do - the involvement of GL... So I am actually quite looking forwards to seeing what these new films are like as I quite enjoyed the Star Trek reboot. And unlike Star Wars, I actually liked the original source material.
JJ Abrams doesn't deserve flashbacks to TPM. Unless he goes insane (not to be ruled out, we do have Peter Jacksons Hobbit trilogy as evidence) it's going to be a solid and enjoyable movie and probably one of the 3 top grossing films of the year (in a year with some pretty massive hauls so far with 2 movies clearing a trillion world wide).
Hulksmash wrote: JJ Abrams doesn't deserve flashbacks to TPM. Unless he goes insane (not to be ruled out, we do have Peter Jacksons Hobbit trilogy as evidence) it's going to be a solid and enjoyable movie and probably one of the 3 top grossing films of the year (in a year with some pretty massive hauls so far with 2 movies clearing a trillion world wide).
I agree that in the hands of a competent director (which Abrams is IMO) the film will do well, but somebody thought Waterworld an Heaven's gate were also good ideas
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Let's be honest, the new Star Wars film could be a steaming pile of brown stuff, but millions will still watch it
Kind of like the originals?
*runs*
Never been a huge fan of the Star Wars films - they suffer from the same thing that most films involving GL do - the involvement of GL... So I am actually quite looking forwards to seeing what these new films are like as I quite enjoyed the Star Trek reboot. And unlike Star Wars, I actually liked the original source material.
ESB is the exception, but then again, Lucas was side-lined on that, so you're probably right.
The alternate reality was the new reality created when the temporal incursion of the Narada from the year 2387 disrupted the time continuum.
And for the last time, since we really should stay on topic in here about Star Wars!
Anyway, there's NO WAY JJ will make worse movies than GL did, so I am quite excited by the prospect of Episodes VII, VIII and IX!
I hope Boba Fett is officially out of the Sarlacc pit and at least in Ep. VIII!
Have an exalt for the Fett comment (and the Mod-esque "Stay on Target", too!).
Though... Fett would be in his 60's now, maybe even 70's. Fett's age has always been relatively indeterminate... i sort of follow the paths that he's slightly older than Solo myself, but that's opinion.
Is it realistic to think that someone would still be an utter badass into their 60's bounty hunting ? Or maybe the armor (and legend!) has been passed on. Or there's cybernetics like luke's hand / vaders body, etc.... but in any event, agreed. I am really hoping that Fett makes an appearance in the new movies and is finally given some movie screen badass air time.
Because... despite his awesome air of mystery and iconography, in the 6 movies, Fett doesn't inspire much fear at all. And listen i'm a Fett fan, i love him (like most other SW nerds do), but his cult of personality is largely due to the extended universe, and not much to do with the 6 movies. So i really hope they do some justice to the legend. They'd be stupid not to - Fett is a merchandising machine.
Fett's story has potential to be a heavy weight.
They way I look at it... the Mandalorians seems more like 40k's Deathwatch.
Grey Templar wrote: The originals in general were heavily overseen by other people. GL didn't have free reign over the script like he did with the prequels.
Yeah, I read that David Lynch knocked back ROTJ for Dune. I can only imagine what Lynch's version would have been like.
Grey Templar wrote: The originals in general were heavily overseen by other people. GL didn't have free reign over the script like he did with the prequels.
Yeah, I read that David Lynch knocked back ROTJ for Dune. I can only imagine what Lynch's version would have been like.
Actually, for ROTJ apparently Lucas spent a lot of time around the set, etc. and some think he was a phantom menace of sorts for the director.
Which would explain why there's a lot of proto-prequel stuff going on in that film (IMO). Lucas being far, far away from these films is truly a new hope for Star Wars fans.
I agree that in the hands of a competent director (which Abrams is IMO) the film will do well, but somebody thought Waterworld an Heaven's gate were also good ideas
Grey Templar wrote: The originals in general were heavily overseen by other people. GL didn't have free reign over the script like he did with the prequels.
George Lucas is very much a Rough Draft idea man. Give em some restraint, but let him come up with some ideas.
I agree that in the hands of a competent director (which Abrams is IMO) the film will do well, but somebody thought Waterworld an Heaven's gate were also good ideas
Meh, I liked Waterworld.
So did I - it just didn't live up to the hype (and budget!) for many.
I don't think that will be the case here though...for most!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Let's be honest, the new Star Wars film could be a steaming pile of brown stuff, but millions will still watch it, and the merchandise sales will make Disney very happy, which at the end of the day, is all that matters for them. I hope it's a good film, but I'm getting flashbacks of TPM. I hope I'm proved wrong.
Of course they will.
It's the Michael Bay (in particular, Transformers) effect.
Making a hojillion dollars is the foregone conclusion.
Whether or not it's a steaming pile of crap remains to be seen.
The first trailer was a start, but the more recent one... that was the good stuff.
So for now it's mostly quiet optimism with a hint of "remember how great TPM's trailer was?" 'Cause I remember reading articles about it crushing office email servers and some of the burgeoning internet's weakest points, and watching it a dozen times.
To quote Jurassic Park, "Ooooh, ahhh, that's how it always begins, but later there's running, and screaming."
Forar wrote: So for now it's mostly quiet optimism with a hint of "remember how great TPM's trailer was?" 'Cause
I do.
I also remember how much I enjoyed the Phantom Menace at the cinema. It was only afterwards that the 'issues' with it started to crop up, because I generally don't sit in the cinema trying to pick holes in what I'm watching... I'm just along for the ride.
Hell, I still enjoy the prequels, despite all of their faults, because I really don't expect anything from them except a bit of light-hearted fun. So we watch them periodically and glory in the lightsabers and space battles, and poke fun at the dodgier dialogue, and all is well with the world.
I agree that in the hands of a competent director (which Abrams is IMO) the film will do well, but somebody thought Waterworld an Heaven's gate were also good ideas
Meh, I liked Waterworld.
So did I - it just didn't live up to the hype (and budget!) for many.
I don't think that will be the case here though...for most!
Au Contraire mon Alpharius! I also liked Waterworld....
I also remember how much I enjoyed the Phantom Menace at the cinema. It was only afterwards that the 'issues' with it started to crop up, because I generally don't sit in the cinema trying to pick holes in what I'm watching... I'm just along for the ride.
The Phantom Menace certainly wasn't a complete wash. Ray Park was in it, and any time Ray Park touches an armed martial arts role he crushes it...if he doesn't have to act. And the Droidekas make sense in a universe where projectiles delivered by relatively small arms cannot seemingly travel faster than sound, or explode.
Forar wrote: So for now it's mostly quiet optimism with a hint of "remember how great TPM's trailer was?" 'Cause
I do.
I also remember how much I enjoyed the Phantom Menace at the cinema. It was only afterwards that the 'issues' with it started to crop up, because I generally don't sit in the cinema trying to pick holes in what I'm watching... I'm just along for the ride.
Hell, I still enjoy the prequels, despite all of their faults, because I really don't expect anything from them except a bit of light-hearted fun. So we watch them periodically and glory in the lightsabers and space battles, and poke fun at the dodgier dialogue, and all is well with the world.
I saw all 3 in theatres, TPM on opening night with my mom at an actual literal midnight showing.
There were some fun moments. Ray Park is indeed great. "Does not compute, does not compute" got a laugh.
But even as a mid-tier fan, they got to 'Midichlorians' and I said "waitwhat?" The pod race wasn't remotely as awesome as they seemed to think it was. "The little kid bumbles his way into managing to destroy a small space station" was obnoxious.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue your point; if you enjoyed them (and still do), please continue to do so. Just sharing my experience/perspective. Hell, I wish I could look back on them fondly. I don't think I've seen 2 or 3 more than that first theatre viewing.
Bromsy wrote: Watching The Phantom Menace in the theater was when my childhood died. I was 15, and I realized how cold and cruel the world was.
It had its good points, like the Darth Maul fight and Pod Racing. That was it.
No no the good points were 1. the robot army landing; 2. the Darth Maul fight up to the first jedi biting the dust; and 3. all the jar jars getting killed by the robots. I really liked that part. Everything else was just bad.
Piston Honda wrote:There are a few great SWEU books, but there is a LOT of crap.
Like the Sun crusher and giant space otters as well as centaurs. If there is a reason to scrap the EU it is that, let the little bit of good had to die with the bad.
You will take Han Solo punching a space otter and you will like it!
Spoiler:
Piston Honda wrote:
That said, didn't Disney say they were going to release a whole new series of novels to work around the films and be super duper official canon?
I would love to see dinsney make a star wars animation movie with the high quality art and motion of their animated films.... without the dozen or so songs...
dogma wrote:And the Yuuzhan Vong, Hutt Jedi, and all super-weapons ever introduced into the EU.
Yuuzhan Vong were among the worst ideas ever put to paper. Hutt Jedi though, that one I (thankfully) missed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote:I hope Boba Fett is officially out of the Sarlacc pit and at least in Ep. VIII!
Just the worst. The worst.
Haight wrote:Though... Fett would be in his 60's now, maybe even 70's. Fett's age has always been relatively indeterminate... i sort of follow the paths that he's slightly older than Solo myself, but that's opinion.
Is it realistic to think that someone would still be an utter badass into their 60's bounty hunting ? Or maybe the armor (and legend!) has been passed on. Or there's cybernetics like luke's hand / vaders body, etc.... but in any event, agreed. I am really hoping that Fett makes an appearance in the new movies and is finally given some movie screen badass air time.
Because... despite his awesome air of mystery and iconography, in the 6 movies, Fett doesn't inspire much fear at all. And listen i'm a Fett fan, i love him (like most other SW nerds do), but his cult of personality is largely due to the extended universe, and not much to do with the 6 movies. So i really hope they do some justice to the legend. They'd be stupid not to - Fett is a merchandising machine.
Fett was created in 32BBY; we know this thanks to AotC and The Clone Wars. He is about 15ish years older than Luke, so with Luke being fairly old in The Force Awakens, Fett is even older. For me, I hope his stupid overhyped butt stays dead in the Sarlacc.
But he won't, because as you said and as has been the inexplicable case for years now, Boba Fett is a merchandising machine.
whembly wrote:They way I look at it... the Mandalorians seems more like 40k's Deathwatch.
Beyond the name, there is pretty much noting at all similar about the two factions.
The Mandalorians are a warrior culture/cadre built on the remains of a tradition from a now extinct non-human race, supposedly open and accepting of anyone willing to work and fight.
The Deathwatch are a bunch of xenophobic super soldiers, genetically engineered by a god being and tasked with keeping alien influences away from human kind.
But he won't, because as you said and as has been the inexplicable case for years now, Boba Fett is a merchandising machine.
I just hope the travesty of the prequels gets reversed in Ep. VII, even if it's in the form of Fett getting some dialogue to the effect of "I found this beat up armor near the carcass of the sarlacc, took it, and with it, the mantle/prestige/ all that goes with being called Boba Fett
Instead of this utter ridiculous "I'm a clone, just like the troopers, but I'm somehow a better clone because, reasons" story they gave him.
Bromsy wrote: Watching The Phantom Menace in the theater was when my childhood died. I was 15, and I realized how cold and cruel the world was.
It had its good points, like the Darth Maul fight and Pod Racing. That was it.
The Pod Race was bad because it served no purpose except to show off CG and tied up like 15 minutes of the trilogy. Order 66 and the murder of all of the jedi took less screen time. The entire Phantom Menace has like 12 minutes of movie that was actually relevant to the overall story. The Tatooine sub plot was a useless waste of time that did nothing except to show that Qui Gon is an idiot and morally bankrupt - if you are going into a hive of scum and villainy why would you bring the naive girl, a droid and a functionally slowed cartoon rabbit with you? Qui Gon tacitly approves of slavery unless the person is force sensitive, and shows he is willing to mind-feth anyone who gets in his way in complete contrivance to Jedi ethics (such as they are).
But it's really all just arguing about window dressing, when the real issue with the prequels - and the Phantom Menace suffers the worst from it - is that the basic plotting and pacing is absolute garbage. Any serious fan of Star Wars or your average first year film student could have thrown out a basic plot structure in 15 minutes that would have bettered what we got, both for the Phantom Menace and the entire prequel trilogy.
Bromsy wrote: The Pod Race was bad because it served no purpose except to show off CG and tied up like 15 minutes of the trilogy. Order 66 and the murder of all of the jedi took less screen time. The entire Phantom Menace has like 12 minutes of movie that was actually relevant to the overall story.
Hiding in the middle of an asteroid that turns out to be a giant space monster had no relevance to anything. Nor did getting stuck in a trash compactor that's got a monster in it.
TPM has a hell of a lot of problems, but little action set pieces that diverge from the main plot is not one of them - Star Wars is pretty much about our heroes stumbling from one dangerous situation to the next.
Really, the structure of the Phantom Menace is probably the strongest of the trilogy films. Make Jar Jar less insipid, add 10 years to Anakin's age and don't make him accidentally win the climactic battle, and clean up the sloppy action scenes that Ray Park didn't direct, and it could actually be a fairly solid movie.
I disagree with the Vong statement. Star Ware EU either recycled fights against a new Empire or tried something new: an enemy that was anathema to the Force. The concept was good. The execution is subject to subjective opinion, but the idea of trying something new instead of rehashing the same old plot line should be applauded, not torn down.
And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the Vong story. gak got real there. Anakin died, Chewie died, Jacen went psycho. Yeah. gak went down. The good guys seriously got their asses kicked, and plot armor didn't save them.
Bromsy wrote: The Pod Race was bad because it served no purpose except to show off CG and tied up like 15 minutes of the trilogy. Order 66 and the murder of all of the jedi took less screen time. The entire Phantom Menace has like 12 minutes of movie that was actually relevant to the overall story.
Hiding in the middle of an asteroid that turns out to be a giant space monster had no relevance to anything. Nor did getting stuck in a trash compactor that's got a monster in it.
TPM has a hell of a lot of problems, but little action set pieces that diverge from the main plot is not one of them - Star Wars is pretty much about our heroes stumbling from one dangerous situation to the next.
Really, the structure of the Phantom Menace is probably the strongest of the trilogy films. Make Jar Jar less insipid, add 10 years to Anakin's age and don't make him accidentally win the climactic battle, and clean up the sloppy action scenes that Ray Park didn't direct, and it could actually be a fairly solid movie.
Really? So the core plot about a trade federation blockade of a planet to make them sign a treaty to make the invasion of said planet legal except the big bad guy didn't want the treaty signed so that he could get emergency powers except that he did everything in his power to get the treaty signed was a solid overall plot? I have no problem with set pieces to build characters up; but this was all kinds of bad. Every little thing done in this movie was dumb, from the very beginning. Palpatine wanted a vote of no-confidence so he could take over, for which he would require having news of the Trade Federation invasion be brought back to the Senate, so of course he logically blows up the ship of and tries to kill the Jedi ambassadors who would of course be the natural people to return the news; Apparently the trade federation were the only people who had no idea what Jedi are capable of, understandable because they'd only been around for about 30,000 years at that point. So they try to poison the jedi with Very Obvious Gas - which the jedi are able to recognize by sight - instead of say venting the chamber into space or maybe having the droid drop off a dozen thermal detonators. Then they send their least competent soldiers in to check the room three whole minutes after the gas is introduced because apparently their bad ass guys were another minute away and they didn't have the time to waste. Then the jedi decide to split up and stow away on the drop ships that the droid army is going to use to invade the planet in order to "Warn the Naboo." bit late, as you are on the troop transports of the army you are trying to warn them of.
Then we can skip past all the gungan nonsense with the note that this is where Qui Gon starts to really show his colors as a morally bankrupt a-hole. So we skip to the capital city which has fallen, and we are treated to Blandy Blandersdottir, the Queen of Monotone - I mean Naboo - who the Nemodians send off to "camp four" for "processing", despite the fact that they need her to sign their treaty to make their invasion legal. At this point we are told that the Naboo people are suffering (although we are not show this, because George Lucas is a storyteller, not a story shower). So after traveling through the planet core (notice how I'm not crapping all over that even though it's nonsensical, because it was relatively succinct?) Qui Gon and Obi Wan rescue the queen, steal a ship and take off. The ship's shield generator is hit while the shields are still up (which makes them sitting ducks, because apparently a tiny ship with a functional shield generator can easily move through a multiple capital ship blockade) and their hyperdrive is damaged.
They land on Tatooine (which is in the opposite direction of Coruscant from Naboo, but whatever. As you noted the idea of small kid Annakin is stupid and this is where we start to see the transition of the Jedi from an order of holy order of knights into creepy cult; because apparently ten is too old to properly train someone in the Jedi philosophy which is not caring about anything or anyone ever. So dill weed Qui Gon decides to go look for a new hyperdrive in the basically pirate/smuggler town, and leaves the hard bitten security chief and his apprentice to watch the ship that already has a crew and armor and guns and stuff, and brings a bumbling idiot cartoon character and a naive handmaiden with him into said smuggler-pirate town. He proceeds to try and mind-feth everyone in his way to get what he wants, and runs into lil anakin;
Midi-chlorians.
This is also where it is really hammered home that we are not smart enough to recognize that this is a Star Wars movie unless it has R2 and C-3P0, because Anakin decided to build a clumsy, overly fussy mass production protocol droid to help his mom with chores around the house. Also we find out Qui Gon really cares about freeing slaves; so long as they have force potential. He was willing to literally rape someones brain to get a part for his ship, but freeing slaves from bondage is not worth even the most cursory of efforts. Unless they are a potential force prodigy. Even if they are the mother of said potential force prodigy. Then he gets in the most convoluted and nonsensical bet to get both the part that he wants and the kid that he wants to steal to induct into the cult whose rules he cavalierly breaks whenever it suits him.
Then 15 minutes of pod racing.
Then set piece on Coruscant.
Then return to Naboo. More nonsense. Gungans have mobile shield generators that the most advanced armies of the later empire lack. But also use slings. That's more nonsense, but at least it is in keeping with ewok standards of nonsense.
Notice I am not complaining about garbage that actually served to make the story better? Stupid laser doors in the stupid basement of the stupid naboo palace giant energy room (the planet had something like this in their basement but a blockade meant immediate suffering for their people? A whole planet couldn't hang on it's own for two days?) because it made the story better and added dramatic tension without being explicitly dumb.
Seriously, the only parts of the movie that serve the overarching plots are the bits with Palpatine and Obi Wan meeting Anakin. Everything else in this movie is dross, and even some of those two parts could have been done better. Maul was a reasonably decent character for what he was - and I will give TPM this much, it's lightsaber duels are the least ridiculously over the top of the prequels.
timetowaste85 wrote: I disagree with the Vong statement. Star Ware EU either recycled fights against a new Empire or tried something new: an enemy that was anathema to the Force. The concept was good. The execution is subject to subjective opinion, but the idea of trying something new instead of rehashing the same old plot line should be applauded, not torn down.
And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the Vong story. gak got real there. Anakin died, Chewie died, Jacen went psycho. Yeah. gak went down. The good guys seriously got their asses kicked, and plot armor didn't save them.
my biggest regret was not finishing the series, but time caught up with me and I couldnt.
timetowaste85 wrote: I disagree with the Vong statement. Star Ware EU either recycled fights against a new Empire or tried something new: an enemy that was anathema to the Force. The concept was good. The execution is subject to subjective opinion, but the idea of trying something new instead of rehashing the same old plot line should be applauded, not torn down.
And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the Vong story. gak got real there. Anakin died, Chewie died, Jacen went psycho. Yeah. gak went down. The good guys seriously got their asses kicked, and plot armor didn't save them.
Are the Vong the race of people who ply the spaceways in "Biotechnological" "ships", grafting all of their tech to living beings and whatnot?
If so, I always thought the idea behind that race to be pretty cool, because it seems so utterly alien to what we know in the SW universe.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: If so, I always thought the idea behind that race to be pretty cool, because it seems so utterly alien to what we know in the SW universe.
Funnily enough, that was exactly the problem that a lot of people had with them... They didn't 'feel' right in the setting.
For myself, it was really nice to see an enemy that wasn't just another iteration of 'someone with an unstoppable superweapon' or 'jedi goes bad'
The YV series certainly had its issues, but overall I really liked the impact that it had on the setting.
timetowaste85 wrote: I disagree with the Vong statement. Star Ware EU either recycled fights against a new Empire or tried something new: an enemy that was anathema to the Force. The concept was good. The execution is subject to subjective opinion, but the idea of trying something new instead of rehashing the same old plot line should be applauded, not torn down.
And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the Vong story. gak got real there. Anakin died, Chewie died, Jacen went psycho. Yeah. gak went down. The good guys seriously got their asses kicked, and plot armor didn't save them.
Are the Vong the race of people who ply the spaceways in "Biotechnological" "ships", grafting all of their tech to living beings and whatnot?
If so, I always thought the idea behind that race to be pretty cool, because it seems so utterly alien to what we know in the SW universe.
Pretty much... they were literally from a different galaxy.
I had no issues with the Vongs and their technologies... mostly. The only WTF thing for me were their use of "Black Hole" techs... that part was dumb.
But, as someone posted earlier, the Vong series was nice in that, gak got real yo.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: If so, I always thought the idea behind that race to be pretty cool, because it seems so utterly alien to what we know in the SW universe.
Funnily enough, that was exactly the problem that a lot of people had with them... They didn't 'feel' right in the setting.
For myself, it was really nice to see an enemy that wasn't just another iteration of 'someone with an unstoppable superweapon' or 'jedi goes bad'
The YV series certainly had its issues, but overall I really liked the impact that it had on the setting.
Sure, what they were trying to do with the Vong was nice, but the execution was terrible.
Star Wars had basically just become super OP, so you just had to keep having mega OP bad guys/super weapons show up to actually provide a challenge. To the point where it became rather ridiculous.
Star Wars had basically just become super OP, so you just had to keep having mega OP bad guys/super weapons show up to actually provide a challenge. To the point where it became rather ridiculous.
That actually sounds very familiar.... like, maybe a game that remains quite popular with fan run message boards and whatnot...
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I just hope the travesty of the prequels gets reversed in Ep. VII, even if it's in the form of Fett getting some dialogue to the effect of "I found this beat up armor near the carcass of the sarlacc, took it, and with it, the mantle/prestige/ all that goes with being called Boba Fett
Instead of this utter ridiculous "I'm a clone, just like the troopers, but I'm somehow a better clone because, reasons" story they gave him.
You will be disappointed then. His background carries through into the Star Wars: The Clone Wars cartoon. He's a whiny snot nosed kid who runs with a bunch of bounty hunters that for some inexplicable reason don't murderface him right from the start. Basically, as more and more Fett stuff comes out, he gets worse and worse.
dogma wrote:Leia wins, of course, but it reads exactly as ridiculous as it looks.
That is ... pretty ridiculous.
timetowaste85 wrote:I disagree with the Vong statement. Star Ware EU either recycled fights against a new Empire or tried something new: an enemy that was anathema to the Force. The concept was good. The execution is subject to subjective opinion, but the idea of trying something new instead of rehashing the same old plot line should be applauded, not torn down.
And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the Vong story. gak got real there. Anakin died, Chewie died, Jacen went psycho. Yeah. gak went down. The good guys seriously got their asses kicked, and plot armor didn't save them.
The Vong story was garbage from the beginning, though it did have some shining moments.
"Here is a race that is completely immune to the Force and doesn't show up in it at all!" We know that the Force runs through all living things. This race is full of living things, wearing living things, using living things and flying in living things. They should show up in the Force. But we've seen other Force-immune creatures before (Thrawn wears a ysalamiri, for instance), so it's not unknown. They basically wanted to make the Vong seem big and bad ass because how do you fight someone that can change your mind for you? Until you learn the reason they don't show up in and aren't subject to the Force:
Spoiler:
You see, this entire RACE from another galaxy, and all their weapons, ships, armor and gear all over the Galaxy, are being shielded by a Force sensitive Vong. So the great secret is that the race IS actually force sensitive, not naturally force immune or anything, it's one guy doing it for everyone everywhere.
So in the end they actually aren't "anathema to the Force", they're just a part of it, being controlled by a lunatic even more powerful than the Emperor, since he can cloak an entire living race, their weapons, their armor, their ships, the bio-enhancements, everything 24/7.
Absolute garbage. I mean, ignoring that the Vong are basically a bio-tech version of the Borg to begin with (instead of nano-tech), the entire concept is hilariously bad. They're basically militant space hippies. Trees not concrete... or we burn your world to ash. We want everything to be natural! So we're going to completely destroy your natural world and mutate it into a version of ours! You race of sentient trees? We're going to burn your forests because reasons.
We know that the Force runs through all living things. This race is full of living things, wearing living things, using living things and flying in living things. They should show up in the Force. But we've seen other Force-immune creatures before (Thrawn wears a ysalamiri, for instance), so it's not unknown. They basically wanted to make the Vong seem big and bad ass because how do you fight someone that can change your mind for you? Until you learn the reason they don't show up in and aren't subject to the Force:
No, that's an in-universe belief, but is not demonstrated to be true. "The Living Force" is a Jedi philosophy, not incontrovertible fact.
We know that the Force runs through all living things. This race is full of living things, wearing living things, using living things and flying in living things. They should show up in the Force. But we've seen other Force-immune creatures before (Thrawn wears a ysalamiri, for instance), so it's not unknown. They basically wanted to make the Vong seem big and bad ass because how do you fight someone that can change your mind for you? Until you learn the reason they don't show up in and aren't subject to the Force:
No, that's an in-universe belief, but is not demonstrated to be true. "The Living Force" is a Jedi philosophy, not incontrovertible fact.
Fact or not, the specifics of sensing things through the Force is well shown.
Living things can be sensed through the Force.
Anakin Solo, among others, actually manages, at one point, to sense the Vong through the Force.
Thus, the Vong can be sensed through the Force.
And yet, for most of the beginning of the Vong Wars, they are this giant black hole in the Force. They are, their living equipment is, their living weapons are, their living ships are. It is explained, in Universe mind, as being caused solely for the reasons I specified before.
If memory serves, it wasn't a Force Sensitive Vong. It was Vergere: a Jedi who left the order back when Obi Wan was training Anakin (read Rogue Planet, I believe, if memory serves). Vergere ended up being a secret advisor while working to defeat them from the inside and used Jacen to help.
And I still enjoyed the Vong series. And looks like I'm not the only one from this thread alone.
We know that the Force runs through all living things. This race is full of living things, wearing living things, using living things and flying in living things. They should show up in the Force. But we've seen other Force-immune creatures before (Thrawn wears a ysalamiri, for instance), so it's not unknown. They basically wanted to make the Vong seem big and bad ass because how do you fight someone that can change your mind for you? Until you learn the reason they don't show up in and aren't subject to the Force:
No, that's an in-universe belief, but is not demonstrated to be true. "The Living Force" is a Jedi philosophy, not incontrovertible fact.
Fact or not, the specifics of sensing things through the Force is well shown.
Living things can be sensed through the Force.
Anakin Solo, among others, actually manages, at one point, to sense the Vong through the Force.
Thus, the Vong can be sensed through the Force.
And yet, for most of the beginning of the Vong Wars, they are this giant black hole in the Force. They are, their living equipment is, their living weapons are, their living ships are. It is explained, in Universe mind, as being caused solely for the reasons I specified before.
And there's plenty of previous examples of various species in the galaxy being immune to one, some or all Force effects. Hutts, for example, are immune to mind-affecting powers. Certain creatures bred through Sith Alchemy are immune to just about everything you could want to throw at them, except maybe thermal detonators.
Sensing a creature in the Force by its absence, rather than its presence, is really not so far-fetched a concept. Especially if they show up as "black holes" in how a given Force Sensitive perceives the Force, you'd note "huh, there should be something there, but there isn't..."
Miraluka, for example, can sense entirely non-living matter solely through the Force. That's how they avoid spilling food on themselves, walking into walls, stepping on rakes and all other kinds of blind-person slapstick events. Never mind the fact that they're eyeless, they perceive the world around them through the Force, and can react to mundane physical objects just fine. There's really no living energy involved in that, just the Force. On top of that, there are Force-using creatures who are entirely inorganic. To call them "living" is a bit of a stretch, since they're sentient crystals with droid bodies.
If this film goes wrong, the nerd rage will be something to behold.
If Washington had any sense, they would direct it towards Putin, even a bare chested, ex-KGB agent, would be powerless to fight off the hordes of angry Star wars fans descending on Moscow. They could succeed where the Wehrmacht and Napoleon failed
Well the prequels were giant turd fests and in the end that hasn't really destroyed enthusiasm in a meaningful way; it doesn't matter to to many people whether it is good or not as long as it has "Star Wars" officially in the title.
Most of the EU stuff is dreadful and to try and make a new Star Wars film fit around it would have been a huge millstone around Abrams' neck. Dropping it was the correct decision.
Frazzled wrote: How is not being a part of the force a big deal. use your eyes, not your feelings Luke, and shoot them up.
The EU sounds like a really bad version of the really bad prequels.
That depends. The KOTOR games are part of the EU and they were amazing. There were some really good comics also. I think Star Wars Legacy was pretty good.
Frazzled wrote: How is not being a part of the force a big deal. use your eyes, not your feelings Luke, and shoot them up.
The EU sounds like a really bad version of the really bad prequels.
That depends. The KOTOR games are part of the EU and they were amazing. There were some really good comics also. I think Star Wars Legacy was pretty good.
In my opinion, the best EU stuff was stuff that happened before the Prequels in the timeline. The bad stuff mostly happened after the OT. There was some goodstuff too, but not enough to counteract.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, disney said "EU doesnt exist anymore, all novels, tv, games, porn parodies and so for are not canon and are What IF"
That's not what Disney said.
Not at all. In fact Star Wars Rebels has officially blessed The Clone Wars as canon with the introduction of Ahsoka Tano into it (apparently she's a Rebellion cell operator, which is seven different kinds of awesome if you're a fan of the Clone Warss). At Star Wars Weekend two weeks ago (which i was at ! woot!) James Arnold Taylor (obi wants voice) and TIya Sicar (Sabine's) also disclosed that Captain Rex is making a comeback in Rebels as well (and we were shown footage in a symposium). So that's basically the whole-hog blessing of the entire Clone Wars story lines by Disney (who is the operator behind Star Wars Rebels).
So Disney has not pooped all over the EU, and they certainly never said that.
Though i wouldn't be surprised if some things exit stage left and others are entered into canon.
No, Twitter statements say that almost all of the EU is gone. The only things that are still canon were the old "T" canon, IE the Clone Wars Show. KOTOR? Gone. Rogue Squadron books? Gone. Tales of the Bounty Hunters? Gone. Thrawn? Gone. Etc. The only stuff canon now is new material that has been given the approval stamp by Lucasfilm.
Really wish that if they were retconning pretty much all of the EU, they would have done away with that godawful 3D series as well. It completely aped Star Wars and had some of the most annoying characters since Annie and Jar Jar (Ashoka).
Ahsoka got much better as time went on. She was awful to start, but got much better and became a decent character. The whole show started fairly crappy, but by the end it was great (picked up around end of season 2, start of 3). And Maul really got fleshed out when he showed up. He became what he SHOULD have been all along: a true villain, not just a guy who was good with a saber.
timetowaste85 wrote: Ahsoka got much better as time went on. She was awful to start, but got much better and became a decent character. The whole show started fairly crappy, but by the end it was great (picked up around end of season 2, start of 3). And Maul really got fleshed out when he showed up. He became what he SHOULD have been all along: a true villain, not just a guy who was good with a saber.
Yeah, Maul in Clone Wars was the best thing ever done with the Prequel era.
Ashoka was annoying in the film and series 1, but by the end was quite the badass... She also did a lot for Anakin's character as well (same could be said for CW as a whole).
And going by series one of Rebels, Ashoka also appears to have
Spoiler:
Coordinated the formation of the Rebel Alliance, which is in itself awesome.
Frazzled wrote: How is not being a part of the force a big deal. use your eyes, not your feelings Luke, and shoot them up.
The EU sounds like a really bad version of the really bad prequels.
That depends. The KOTOR games are part of the EU and they were amazing. There were some really good comics also. I think Star Wars Legacy was pretty good.
In my opinion, the best EU stuff was stuff that happened before the Prequels in the timeline. The bad stuff mostly happened after the OT. There was some goodstuff too, but not enough to counteract.
The Old Republic was my favorite era. Lots of crazyness going on in that time and it was before the Rule of 2.
Psienesis wrote: And there's plenty of previous examples of various species in the galaxy being immune to one, some or all Force effects. Hutts, for example, are immune to mind-affecting powers. Certain creatures bred through Sith Alchemy are immune to just about everything you could want to throw at them, except maybe thermal detonators.
Sensing a creature in the Force by its absence, rather than its presence, is really not so far-fetched a concept. Especially if they show up as "black holes" in how a given Force Sensitive perceives the Force, you'd note "huh, there should be something there, but there isn't..."
Miraluka, for example, can sense entirely non-living matter solely through the Force. That's how they avoid spilling food on themselves, walking into walls, stepping on rakes and all other kinds of blind-person slapstick events. Never mind the fact that they're eyeless, they perceive the world around them through the Force, and can react to mundane physical objects just fine. There's really no living energy involved in that, just the Force. On top of that, there are Force-using creatures who are entirely inorganic. To call them "living" is a bit of a stretch, since they're sentient crystals with droid bodies.
I think we're talking past each other here. I have already acknowledged (bolded below) that there are other creatures that are, for various reasons, immune to aspects of the Force:
streamdragon wrote: "Here is a race that is completely immune to the Force and doesn't show up in it at all!" We know that the Force runs through all living things. This race is full of living things, wearing living things, using living things and flying in living things. They should show up in the Force. But we've seen other Force-immune creatures before (Thrawn wears a ysalamiri, for instance), so it's not unknown.They basically wanted to make the Vong seem big and bad ass because how do you fight someone that can change your mind for you? Until you learn the reason they don't show up in and aren't subject to the Force:
In that post, I also state why the Vong were written to be immune (underlined above). ****SPOILERS BELOW****
What I think makes most of the Vong stuff garbage, almost retroactively, is the in-universe explanation for WHY the Vong don't show up in the Force. (They don't actually appear as a big blank spot, btw, that was hyperbole on my part.) They don't show up in the Force, and aren't subject to the Force, because a single Force Sensitive Vong is somehow shielding every single Vong, every single bit of Vong gear, every single Vong weapon, and every single Vong ship, everywhere in the Galaxy, simultaneously, 24/10 (10 days in a Star Wars week). A race which was essentially Force-neutered by their living planet (lol worthy to begin with), suddenly has literally the single most powerful Force user ever to exist. Because every time a new amphi-staff is grown? He shields it from the Force. Every time a new Vong is born? Boom, bigger shield. It's ludicrous, even for Star Wars. It's also hilariously inconsistent in the writings: the Force protection should have dropped the moment he died right? Wrong. Even in the friggin Star Wars Legacy comics, 150 years after the death of Luke Skywalker, they are still blanks in the Force, except whoops, their protector died over a century before.
It's that sort of inconsistency, btw, that makes me actually look forward to a new, consistent EU.
timetowaste85 wrote: Ahsoka got much better as time went on. She was awful to start, but got much better and became a decent character. The whole show started fairly crappy, but by the end it was great (picked up around end of season 2, start of 3). And Maul really got fleshed out when he showed up. He became what he SHOULD have been all along: a true villain, not just a guy who was good with a saber.
Yeah, Maul in Clone Wars was the best thing ever done with the Prequel era.
Ashoka was annoying in the film and series 1, but by the end was quite the badass... She also did a lot for Anakin's character as well (same could be said for CW as a whole).
And going by series one of Rebels, Ashoka also appears to have
Spoiler:
Coordinated the formation of the Rebel Alliance, which is in itself awesome.
IRT your spoiler...
That's much, much better than what we were told in the Force Unleashed. Which was, frankly, dumb. Fun game... but dumb.
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
George Lucas, respect the EU? Pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on!
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
George Lucas, respect the EU? Pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on!
He was involved in the making of the Old republic; in addition in the remaster of the original triology, there were quite a few expanded universe references added
This is the future of Star Wars people, we just need Ewoks doing the gangnam style and Darth Vader Twerking so that kids will like it
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
George Lucas, respect the EU? Pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on!
He was involved in the making of the Old republic; in addition in the remaster of the original triology, there were quite a few expanded universe references added
And the "remasters" of the original trilogy added nothing of value.
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
George Lucas, respect the EU? Pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on!
He was involved in the making of the Old republic; in addition in the remaster of the original triology, there were quite a few expanded universe references added
And the "remasters" of the original trilogy added nothing of value.
Demonstrably untrue. The dancing and singing at Jabba's Palace completely changed the tone of the film and greatly enhanced Return of the Jedi.
ATXMILEY wrote: He was involved in the making of the Old republic; in addition in the remaster of the original triology, there were quite a few expanded universe references added
Yes, he added references to things from the EU that he liked, and ignored anything else. He didn't 'respect' the EU... He didn't even follow it. He stated in interviews that he had never read any of the EU material, and had no interest in it. As far as he was concerned, the EU wasn't 'his' Star Wars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I'll hold my hands up, I've never seen the original version of Return of the Jedi.
But... Wasn't the original 'final song' some terrible ewok singalong kind of thing? (Yub-nub-eee-chop yub nub, aaah toe peech toe, eech eee keene).
Whereas, instead we got the 'Victory Celebration' which, personally, I find an amazing piece of music.
Personally, I liked the original music. RotJ being my least favourite of the 6 movies so far, though, the change didn't particularly bother me... but I don't think it really improved anything.
The fact that anyone can hold up the special edition of the original trilogy and say that George Lucas' work respected the EU is, quite frankly hilarious. The special edition, apart from having basically nothing to do with the EU, was an exercise in pointless changes for the sake of change and added nothing of value.
The fact that anyone thinks he respected the EU is quite frankly hilarious.
George Lucas hated his fans, and he hated them primarily because they came to love the EU far more than they loved his owns works (in his eyes anyway...). Lucas regularly ignored EU material, and even went so far as to retcon EU material fans liked out of spite. Hell he retconned his own material out of spite! Remember that whole "Han didn't shot first" thing? How slowed was that
"I am a gakky ass movie maker that makes gakky movies that gets good ratings because well my movies are being judged by the standard of summer movies and I have every right to invalidate the stories of writers waaaaaaaaaay more talented then me"
I also think of the same for Dave Filoni
Personally, I prefer George Lucas because at least he respected the expanded universe more than them
Your opinion is noted. And laughed out of the thread!
-Shrike- wrote: The fact that anyone can hold up the special edition of the original trilogy and say that George Lucas' work respected the EU is, quite frankly hilarious. The special edition, apart from having basically nothing to do with the EU, was an exercise in pointless changes for the sake of change and added nothing of value.
Eh, I liked some stuff in the Special Edition of the OT, like the added traffic on Bespin just to make Cloud City feel more "alive". Some of it was just an exercise of complete futility, like sticking random aliens into the travel to the Mos Eisley Cantina.
Wyzilla wrote: Eh, I liked some stuff in the Special Edition of the OT, like the added traffic on Bespin just to make Cloud City feel more "alive". Some of it was just an exercise of complete futility, like sticking random aliens into the travel to the Mos Eisley Cantina.
The revised Bespin scenes were probably the best example of tinkering done well... although having said that, I never really felt that the original scenes were as 'closed in' as George apparently did, so while they do enhance the movie somewhat and give Cloud City a much brighter, more open appearance, they still weren't really neccessary.
The one change that I would have been far more excited about would have been to re-shoot Obi-Wan and Vader's duel at the end of Ep 4 with a little more of the pizzaz that we got from the prequel duels. Use Ewan Macgregor with Alec Guiness' face stapled on digitally, and that scene could be all sorts of awesome.
The one change that I would have been far more excited about would have been to re-shoot Obi-Wan and Vader's duel at the end of Ep 4 with a little more of the pizzaz that we got from the prequel duels. Use Ewan Macgregor with Alec Guiness' face stapled on digitally, and that scene could be all sorts of awesome.
Nooooo! That scene is perfect for what it is, two old warriors testing each other, both knowing how it will end. We don't need any silly backflips or spins or trick moves!
I have to say, though, that I do regard the Special Edition Star Wars as the definitive/best versions. While there are a couple of bits that bug me (Han shooting second, Boba with Jango's voice), the overall visual improvements are excellent. I've no time for the blu-ray ones, though, as that's just change for change's sake. If I could get the SEs on BR, though, I certainly would.
Nooooo! That scene is perfect for what it is, two old warriors...
Except , thanks to the prequels , they're not. At the time of that duel , Obi Wan is in his late 50s, and Anakin his early 40s... While Anakin is conceivably (and inconsistently in the EU) slowed down somewhat by his injuries, neither of them are old enough by Jedi or Sith standards to be that useless with a sword.
Nooooo! That scene is perfect for what it is, two old warriors...
Except , thanks to the prequels , they're not. At the time of that duel , Obi Wan is in his late 50s, and Anakin his early 40s... While Anakin is conceivably (and inconsistently in the EU) slowed down somewhat by his injuries, neither of them are old enough by Jedi or Sith standards to be that useless with a sword.
1. Alex Guinness was no spring chicken when he did it.
2. The sword duel represented masters fighting, not journeyman knights. Flashy is for the young. Killy, is for the skilled.
Due you think Musashi is going to get all "flashy" or just kill you?
Frankly I like the sword fight in ESB the best. Menacing. controlled. The prequels were continuous and boring.
Nooooo! That scene is perfect for what it is, two old warriors...
Except , thanks to the prequels , they're not. At the time of that duel , Obi Wan is in his late 50s, and Anakin his early 40s... While Anakin is conceivably (and inconsistently in the EU) slowed down somewhat by his injuries, neither of them are old enough by Jedi or Sith standards to be that useless with a sword.
1. Alex Guinness was no spring chicken when he did it.
2. The sword duel represented masters fighting, not journeyman knights. Flashy is for the young. Killy, is for the skilled.
Due you think Musashi is going to get all "flashy" or just kill you?
Frankly I like the sword fight in ESB the best. Menacing. controlled. The prequels were continuous and boring.
I agree with ESB having the best duel, although Luke vs Vader Round 2 in RotJ is very close. And I do love Maul vs Obi-wan and Qui-gon in TPM, just the right mix of flashy and feeling. Compare any of those to, say, the final duel in RotS, which is all style and no substance, and I definitely hope the new trilogy gets back to the former.
Yes, make it look awesome, but it still needs to mean something and make sense. Half the strikes in the RotS fight weren't even going in the tight direction to actually wound the other guy whether he blocked or not.
AegisGrimm wrote: I do however think that Timothy Zahn did a pretty admirable job dealing with this little fault with the end of ROTJ:
That's just another reason why the original cut of ROTJ is better than the special edition. In the original all we see are the Rebels and Ewoks celebrating, which makes sense as they've just won the battle of Endor. There's nothing there to imply that the entire war is already won, just that with the Emperor, Darth Vader and Piett dead and the Death Star destroyed they've scored a colossal victory, even bigger than at the end of A New Hope. Given time they'll be able to defeat the remaining forces of the Imperial Navy, especially as they're likely to get more defectors now that the fear of Vader and the Emperor is gone, but it'll still be a hard fight.
Compare that to the special edition and suddenly we have the streets of Coruscant, the capital of the whole Empire, thronged with people celebrating the Emperors death. Apparently the Imperial Navy couldn't even maintain order on the capital, where it's presence will be huge, for a single day after the Emperor died. In which case how the hell did the Empire even survive this long if the commanders of the armed forces are so inept and incapable of maintaining order?
Yes, make it look awesome, but it still needs to mean something and make sense. Half the strikes in the RotS fight weren't even going in the tight direction to actually wound the other guy whether he blocked or not.
Not to mention this piece of idiocy:
Honestly, whilst Anakin is waving his lightsaber around like an imbecile Obi-Wan could've just run him through instead of mirroring him. And just look at their stances! No semblance of balance or centre of gravity, you could just give either one a little shove and it'd get them flat on their backs.
Compare that to Luke vs Vader in both Empire and Jedi. Luke fights from a proper fencing stance, legs apart at an angle for balance making him very difficult to knock over.
Spoiler:
Obi-Wan and Anakin were trained at the Jedi academy by other Jedi, possibly including Mace Windu, so you'd expect them to have better technique than Luke, who is almost entirely self taught.
And a lot of other elements and tonal qualities that reminded me of the original series, as a guy who was raised on that series. It probably doesn't remind people of TNG, and maybe that's an issue for those who gravitate toward THAT series.
